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'It's like we're in an episode of Father Ted': Top civil servants contradict each other when questioned

Civilian members of the gardaí gave evidence in front of the Public Accounts Committee today.

Updated 9pm.

Today further revelations about the finances of the garda college in Templemore were made in front of the Public Accounts Committee. Five top civil servants in the organisation were grilled by politicians about their roles in this controversy. They are:

  • John Barrett, executive director of human resources and people. At the last PAC hearing, he openly contradicted Commissioner Nóirín O’Sullivan about a meeting they had in relation to Templemore’s financial irregularities.
  • Niall Kelly, head of internal audit. He conducted the recent audit that revealed the extent of the financial issues. Last time he appeared before the committee, he said he felt he had been “duped” when given assurances in 2011 that issues he identified would be addressed.
  • Michael Culhane, executive director of finance and services. A letter he wrote castigating Kelly was the subject of media coverage last week.
  • Ken Ruane, head of legal affairs. He issued a letter to the Commissioner urging her to inform the Minister for Justice 15 months before she actually did so.
  • Joe Nugent, chief administrative officer.

THE EVIDENCE GIVEN by civil servants of An Garda Siochana to the Public Accounts Committee has been likened to “an episode of Father Ted”.

Sinn Féin’s Mary Lou McDonald said she hasn’t seen anything “quite as shambolic as this”.

It feels like we’re trapped in an episode or even a serious of Father Ted. Nobody is responsible for anything, everybody knew everything yet nobody knew anything, and it’s absolutely astonishing.

A top civil servant in An Garda Síochána today revealed that there are five tax numbers connected to the garda college in Templemore.

The revelation emerged this afternoon in the second Public Accounts Committee hearing on the college’s irregular finances. Five senior civil servants in the organisation appeared before the committee including Chief Administrative Officer Joe Nugent, who told politicians about the five tax numbers connected to Templemore.

He said one was the main An Garda Síochána number and three related to the college’s restaurant, bar and shop. The fifth was for the controversial Sportsfield Co company that an internal audit found was being used to transfer public funds to various external entities, including the Garda Boat Club.

When asked whether each was tax compliant, Nugent told the PAC that the organisation is currently “in discussions with Revenue” about it. He did confirm that the bank account for the bar was closed, but again, when pushed about whether tax returns had been filed up to date for each of these numbers, he said he would “revert on the issue”.

“This is the Public Accounts Committee, it’s not a case of being able to revert”, Labour TD Alan Kelly told Nugent.

If you know an answer and fail to give it, that’s a very serious issue.

Kelly said, “This is a crisis for our country. The evidence that has been given here today, to me, means we have a crisis in our country in relation to the gardaí and our justice system.”

Tension

The session today saw the five civil servants openly contradicting each other’s evidence numerous times. TD Catherine Connolly noted: “People are swimming to save themselves at this point.”

Fianna Fáil Shane Cassells described their exchanges as “bordering on hostility”.

“All from people who are supposed to be on the same side,” he said.

There were particular tensions between the executive director of finance Michael Culhane and two of the other senior civil servants, Niall Kelly, who is head of internal audit and John Barrett, executive director of HR.

Correspondence provided to the committee showed criticisms by Culhane of both of these men. In one letter, he had referred to Kelly’s opinions as “unprofessional, misleading and mischievous”.

Another letter, written to the Commissioner and a number of other top-level gardaí a year ago, questioned whether Barrett might be in breach of Official Secrets Act in posting documents to himself in relation to these irregularities.

Barrett was particularly agitated in today’s hearing, revealing that he tried three times himself and four times through his solicitor to gain access to documents relating to him.

When eventually released to him under the Freedom of Information Act, he said 85% was redacted. This letter about him was, however, handed over to the PAC in its entirety yesterday and this is how Barrett first learned of its existence.

He said it “reflects the situation in its reality” that he had no knowledge of a criminal allegation against him.

Reservations 

At one point in the hearing, Labour’s Alan Kelly asked each of the five civil servants in turn whether they had confidence in top management in An Garda Síochána. From Nugent, Culhane and head of legal affairs Ken Ruane he received a simple, “Yes”.

Barrett told the PAC he has “some reservations” and Nially Kelly responded that he had “some questions”.

In his opening statement, the head of internal audit spoke of attempts to undermine him or to influence him to change his audit findings.

He also said there “was and may still be in some parts of An Garda Síochána a culture of not admitting to problems and when these problems persist, trying to keep them in-house and away from transparent public scrutiny”.

Despite his reluctance to express confidence in top management across the board, Kelly did say he has confidence in Commissioner Nóirín O’Sullivan and in Deputy Commissioner Donal Ó Cúaláin. He is currently conducting further audits in relation to Templemore and he said “doors are being flung open” to facilitate this work.

The Cabra bank account

The final revelation of the hearing came from questioning by Fine Gael’s Josepha Madigan. She asked Barrett whether he was aware of any other bank accounts that haven’t already been discussed.

“I believe there may be some that have not yet been fully audited by Mr Kelly,” he replied, later confirming he was aware an account may exist at an AIB bank in Cabra, north Dublin.

He said his understanding was that this account related to EU funding. When asked by Madigan whether this funding was being used for something other than what it had been meant for, he replied: “I don’t know”.

When the matter was made known to him recently, he said he gave the information to the head of internal audit.

Kelly confirmed he is currently undertaking two additional and specific audits in relation to Templemore’s finances. One relates to EU-funded projects and programmes dating all the way back to 1998. He hopes to have this completed by 13 July, when Commissioner Nóirín O’Sullivan is scheduled to appear back before the committee.

The committee reconvenes at 5pm this evening. You can watch it live here

Additional reporting by Cliodhna Russell.

Read: Massive infighting among top gardaí over Templemore scandal>

Related: The Garda Commissioner, the head of HR and the ‘brief’ two-hour meeting in Templemore>

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69 Comments
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    Mute Bobby Neary
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    Oct 1st 2019, 8:38 AM

    Wouldn’t be like the government if they didn’t lose money on something that should be easy to manage..

    270
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    Mute dublindamo
    Favourite dublindamo
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    Oct 1st 2019, 9:06 AM

    @Bobby Neary: the govt have investment managers managing this. They will be restricted in what they can invest in so pretty much only govt bonds. With negative rate environment it is to expected that there will be a loss

    57
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    Mute Tommy C
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    Oct 1st 2019, 9:09 AM

    @dublindamo: so we back apple. Keep the money safe, it loses 70 million a year, they win their case, we have to pay them back what we lost. Ireland

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    Mute dublindamo
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    Oct 1st 2019, 9:14 AM

    @Tommy C: no we only pay back what is left in the pot. The govt is not liable if the fund value decreases

    35
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    Mute Brendan Hughes
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    Oct 1st 2019, 9:26 AM

    @dublindamo: I’m sure our government will find a way to pay back what was lost. They hate to see business struggle.

    38
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    Mute joe
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    Oct 1st 2019, 10:19 AM

    @Bobby Neary: and the lad who doesn’t have a clue has over 100 likes!
    How would you expect that money to be managed?
    CFDs? Would you put it into futures? Maybe you’d look at shorting some companies? I am really interested to see how you would keep your money safe and generate a return in a negative interest environment? Im

    29
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    Mute Bobby Neary
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    Oct 1st 2019, 12:13 PM

    @joe: no need to be investing it.
    Just place it in a holding account.
    There is zero need to be taking risks with that amount of money..

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    Mute Dara O'Brien
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    Oct 1st 2019, 1:13 PM

    @Bobby Neary: That amount of money – in a savings account? With whom? What about concentration risk? Currency risk? Bankruptcy of the deposit taker? Also, you do realize that credit unions are calling deposits at €15k because the banks are charging them negative rates on their corporate deposits?

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    Mute joe
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    Oct 1st 2019, 1:28 PM

    @Bobby Neary: @Bobby Neary: that is in the holding account you fool! Negative interest rates! Cash and cash equivalents I.e in the bank!

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    Mute Simon Demery
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    Oct 1st 2019, 2:24 PM

    @Bobby Neary: if they stuck it in the hot press or under the mattress, they would have made more!!

    1
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    Mute dublindamo
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    Oct 1st 2019, 8:32 AM

    With interest rates at -0.5% this is actually doing well

    55
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    Mute Corkonian In Dublin
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    Oct 1st 2019, 11:50 AM

    @dublindamo: I agree except for the €2million in operating expenses

    10
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    Mute dstaffx
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    Oct 1st 2019, 8:50 AM

    €2 million in operating expenses. Easy money if you can get it.

    60
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    Mute Sequoia
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    Oct 1st 2019, 9:42 AM

    @dstaffx:

    This I don’t get. Systems are automated with buy/sell triggers at predetermined rates.

    There isn’t army minding gold here. The administrative costs are minimal.

    19
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    Mute Dara O'Brien
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    Oct 1st 2019, 10:07 AM

    @Sequoia: buying and selling bonds has a cost as do the various taxes, insurances, staff costs, reporting and software systems required to manage a bond fund of that size.

    15
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    Mute gary mullen
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    Oct 1st 2019, 9:07 AM

    Sure we don’t have a housing crisis, sure we don’t have a homeless crisis, sure our prisons are not over crowded, sure we don’t have people waiting on trollies in A&E, sure we can wait longer for the childrens hospital to be built, sure we don’t need to put money into education in this country, sure we don’t really need the 14 billion do we? Not sure we don’t . Discracefull government running this country, voted in by the people of this country to keep the poor poor and make the rich even richer!!!!

    54
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    Mute dublindamo
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    Oct 1st 2019, 9:25 AM

    @gary mullen: people need to realise if Ireland didn’t appeal this we wouldn’t have had a 14bn windfall to spend. However there would have been significant macro consequences as a result

    29
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    Mute Cian
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    Oct 1st 2019, 9:41 AM

    @gary mullen: This needs to be repeated over and over again. That money isnt ours no matter who wins. If we win, it goes back to apple. If we lose it goes to the countries where it should have been paid. If we do lose, the repercussions could cost our economy significantly more than 14 Bn.

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    Mute Jake
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    Oct 1st 2019, 11:31 AM

    @Cian: what are the macro consequences – you think apple will leave cork ? where will they go? Why not try something different and see how it goes? See what Ireland stands to gain, no one knows. Tim Cook didn’t come out and say “Lads if that money is collected, we’ll leave Cork”

    1
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    Mute Euro McPúnty
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    Oct 1st 2019, 8:39 AM

    Thats like saying €14,000 loses €70. Not exactly a hole in it.

    30
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    Mute Gerard Heery
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    Oct 1st 2019, 8:49 AM

    @Euro McPúnty: it shouldn’t be losing any money whatsoever

    44
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    Mute dublindamo
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    Oct 1st 2019, 9:01 AM

    @Gerard Heery: how do you figure that when interest rates are negative?

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    Mute Dara O'Brien
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    Oct 1st 2019, 9:08 AM

    @Gerard Heery: It has to lose money – deposit rates are negative.

    26
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    Mute Gerard Heery
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    Oct 1st 2019, 9:35 AM

    @dublindamo: the money should have but in short term investments and managed it could years before a ruling is made on whether we get the money or not and the legal end that’s years in Ireland ,70 m is alot of money when you ain’t got it

    4
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    Mute Dara O'Brien
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    Oct 1st 2019, 10:05 AM

    @Gerard Heery: it’s in fixed interest instruments which is as safe as you can get. Unfortunately, the rates on them are in negative territory as the ECB continues it’s QE programme to try and get inflation up to target.

    Yes, an equity based investment would be performing better at the moment but if the market were to drop by 10% overnight (as it did last December) then it would be down a significant amount more.

    The money has to be kept as safe as possible and, with the current climate, that’s where it is – just happens that safe havens have a negative return.

    18
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    Mute dublindamo
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    Oct 1st 2019, 11:55 AM

    @Dara O’Brien: stop talking sense. It won’t get you likes around here

    11
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    Mute Gerard Heery
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    Oct 1st 2019, 1:27 PM

    @dublindamo: and yet Ireland pays a fortune in interest on its dedt Ireland definitely thrown under a bus

    1
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    Mute dublindamo
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    Oct 1st 2019, 6:29 PM

    @Gerard Heery: the ntma recently issued a 10 year bond at negative rates.

    1
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    Mute Jack McInerney
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    Oct 2nd 2019, 2:42 AM

    @Dara O’Brien: They should have stayed clear from Europe in the first place. US Treasury notes and Municipal bonds are still attractive and positive should have kept it in them.

    1
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    Mute dublindamo
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    Oct 2nd 2019, 7:07 AM

    @Jack McInerney: and then have additional FX risk from the fluctuations of the Dollar v Euro

    1
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    Mute DarraghF
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    Oct 1st 2019, 9:11 AM

    History would suggest that If they let our Bankers ‘look after it’, under central bank and government guidance – all 70 billion will be lost to both Apple and the country with the tax payer footing the bill….

    24
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    Mute Jodi
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    Oct 1st 2019, 11:39 AM

    Ah, The Journal Comments – filled with people who know little or nothing about financial markets, but insist on commenting as if they do…

    12
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    Mute Johnny Rielly
    Favourite Johnny Rielly
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    Oct 1st 2019, 11:45 AM

    @Jodi: thats right.. because financial people are sooo clever….. i seem to remember the big bang from the celtic tiger… that didnt make them look to clever

    12
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    Mute Mike McGann
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    Oct 1st 2019, 9:36 AM

    Only Ireland could manage this

    9
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    Mute Corkonian In Dublin
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    Oct 1st 2019, 11:50 AM

    2 million in operating expenses???? How???

    7
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    Mute MickN
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    Oct 1st 2019, 9:58 AM

    Ill mind it for free…

    6
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    Mute Johnny Rielly
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    Oct 1st 2019, 11:43 AM

    Just think what benefit that money would be to the country… more Gardai, improved rural broadband…better pay for frontline staff. etc etc …. but no the Paddies dont want it… we think we are so frikking clever

    5
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    Mute Paddy J
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    Oct 1st 2019, 12:54 PM

    @Johnny Rielly: Unfortunately that is never going to happen as the money isn’t ours in the first place. It is either Apple’s or it belongs to other countries where the revenues were earned. If Apple loses the case there will be a big queue of counties with the paw out looking for their cut.

    8
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    Mute Damien Hawe
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    Oct 1st 2019, 1:23 PM

    @Johnny Rielly: Do you honestly believe that we would hang onto that money? Because I can pretty much guarantee you that as soon as we keep it the other countries would come looking for their slice of it.

    2
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    Mute Simon Demery
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    Oct 1st 2019, 5:03 PM

    In the words of Father Ted.

    “THAT MONEY WAS JUST RESTING IN MY ACCOUNT BEFORE I MOVED IT ON”

    2
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    Mute Den Sullivan
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    Oct 1st 2019, 12:02 PM

    If it costs money just to hold money in goverment bonds at negative rates .this never happend in human history . ! Upsidedown world either something is very wroung or central banks have found means turn base metals into gold

    2
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    Mute dublindamo
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    Oct 1st 2019, 7:42 PM

    @Den Sullivan: it has happened in economies like Japan in the past. The NTMA recently issued a bond with negative yield

    1
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    Mute Damon16
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    Oct 1st 2019, 7:34 PM

    Corporations don’t pay taxes, their customers do.

    2
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    Mute Lukevic101
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    Oct 2nd 2019, 12:03 AM

    Could they not just print a one time 14 billion euro note? And keep it someplace safe, like under a mattress or a jam jar?

    1
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    Mute Jack McInerney
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    Oct 2nd 2019, 2:19 AM

    @Lukevic101: Haha, Doesn’t work that way I’m afraid.

    1
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    Mute Lukevic101
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    Oct 2nd 2019, 10:11 AM

    @Jack McInerney: sorry Jack was a poor attempt at humour. Like in the Simpsons with the Trillion Dollar Bill.

    1
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