Sign in. It’s quick, free and it’s up to you.
An account is an optional way to support the work we do. Find out more.
Updated at 6.50pm
A LETTER FROM Luas operator Transdev putting all staff on protective notice has been met with a strong response this evening from the Siptu trade union.
The letter, which had been expected by union members after talks broke down yesterday, tells staff future employment at the tram service will be on a day-to-day basis. Siptu had earlier warned that the letter had the potential to “create conditions for a shutdown” of the Dublin tram service.
The latest
A meeting between between management and the union broke down yesterday – and asked this evening whether Transdev was trying to bring matters to a head, managing director Gerry Madden said it was the union that was being unreasonable
“We can’t magic up money we don’t have,” Madden told RTÉ’s Six One.
What’s happened since the WRC deal is five further stoppages. We obviously incur financial penalties as a result of that.
In a statement, Siptu’s Owen Reidy condemned the actions of management and said the letter “proposes that members should consider an offer to resolve the dispute that is inferior to a proposal from the Workplace Relations Commission that was rejected by 99% of staff”.
The WRC deal was rejected by workers just days before Easter weekend. Strikes planned for Easter Sunday and Monday, which had been postponed, went ahead – and further stoppages have taken place since.
“Transdev has escalated the dispute by breaking off all talks and threatening our members’ livelihoods,” Reidy insisted.
This move makes a negotiated settlement to this dispute even more remote.
To embed this post, copy the code below on your site
Their biggest mistake was striking on Easter Sunday. What sympathy I had is now gone.
The luas workers should have a strike against SIPTU as that bunch of idiots in the union could potentially cost people their jobs
Well said
Why Eamonn? The strike on Easter Sunday was actually a fitting tribute to the great socialist James Connolly on the centenary of his execution at the hands of our previous capitalist ruling class. Connolly understood that the cause of the working class is only ever advanced significantly and sustainably through collective action, solidarity and struggle against the capitalist system. The lives of the majority are only bearable because of the many battles fought and won by the earlier unions. Minimum wage, 40 hour working week, workplace health and safety, universal health care and education, state pension etc etc etc. None of these concessions to the working class were willingly gifted by capital but we’re fought and won over centuries of socialist struggle.
Solidarity with the Tesco and Cadbury workers, the 999 operators, the Luas drivers, the nurses, the teachers and all workers struggling to obtain a greater share of the wealth which we create. As the data clearly shows, the trend over the past few decades has been overwhelmingly in the opposite direction with greater and greater wealth accumulating to capital owners and less and less to the workers. This has disastrous consequences for society and it’s long past time we reversed the rotten system which sees 62 individuals now holding the same wealth as the poorest half of the globes population, 3500 million people.
Luas should start training up new drivers instantly. And let these clowns strike on.
im delighted they are going to be put on protective notice, absolutely delighted for them :)
Wally- if the Luas workers and others you mention are highly skilled and deserving of highet pay then they’ll have no problem getting the big pay with another company. Failing that they could set up their own business, of course they’d be hated by the likes of your you for doing so as being a capitalist
My son could do with a new job as the one he has pays mim wage, even after a college degree. He could get double his wages by just doing 7 weeks training. When are they interviews???? Should be loads of jobs going in a few days
Tommy You understand of course that the Luas infrastructure won’t evaporate if Transdev lose the operating contract? Therefore drivers will be required by whoever runs our state owned light rail network and that those jobs will be unionised as it’s in Siptu and the other transport union’s interests to ensure that is the case.
The concern around here for Transdev’s profits is entirely misplaced unless of course you’re a shareholder. Around half of any money that the Luas drivers get in a pay rise will end up increasing the government’s tax take which can be used to fund social services like health and education which benefit us all.
The remainder of the pay increase will be spent in the local economy supporting other jobs and families. One person’s spending is another person’s income and job as the macro economy is circular.
More money in the hands of the working class in beneficial for society generally. More money in the hands of the minority capitalist elite is bad news as they already have an obscene share of the world’s wealth and continue to hoard ever more.
It’s interesting to hear the majority here arguing against their own interests and for more money to accrue to those who already have too much.
Now I wonder who might benefit from keeping us in blind ignorance on the nature of the class divide and how the macro economy actually works?
Possibly the kind of people who have accounts with Mossack Fonseca in Panama maybe?
Ah, they;’re doing it for us, oh that’s different so………… Why didn’t you just say.
They are looking for 60 grand a year Comrade Wally. Working class, really? They also want a month off every year, paid. And double time instead of time and a half for overtime. Greed, greed and more greed. I couldn’t care less if all those lever pushers were out on their ears in the morning. They are taking the pi**.
Not looking as good as the AAA TD’s on 90k plus expenses – still a way to go. TD’s aren’t working class though – I’m confused.
I don’t see the likes of Comrade Wally getting half as excited about workers on zero hour contracts.. You know, genuine cases that need to be highlighted. Jizzing in their pants every time they talk about luas drivers, as if they are hard done by. Money follows money as the old saying goes.
The AAA are very selective, they represents bank workers but not Gardai – who knew eh?
Game on.
“The firm which operates Dublin’s Luas has put its staff on protective notice with immediate effect.
An all-out strike now appears to be on the cards after Transdev and Siptu failed to break the deadlock at last-ditch talks yesterday.
In a letter to employees, Transdev warns staff will be employed on a day-to-day basis and that an “appropriate financial deduction” will be imposed for “unacceptable part-performance of duties”.
We are the clowns if we don’t see the bigger picture going on here, the systematic destruction of workers rights, the race to the bottom, the return of slavery, all just around the corner now
@Wally what the Luas drivers are looking for is far beyond the working class wage and conditions.
Bring in the Army to drive the trams if required.
Bashar O’Connor
Nonsense Len. The AAA supports all workers struggling against the infinite greed of the capitalist system. Check out today’s Journal article on the Tesco workers as an example like a good lad.
A defining quality of the elite capitalist skum that you continually harp on Wally about is greed. What the luas workers and siptu are guilty of is the exact same greed that you claim to abhor.
Unreasonable, unworkable and soon unemployable.
We need to put transdev on protective notice, take the lucrative luas management contract into the cie group
@Wally ‘like a good lad’? And patronising to boot.
Ah Wally will ya go off with yourself, trying to compare Tesco staff to the greedy Luas drivers.
Mind you Len. Patsy sounds like she’s positively “jizzing in her pants’ at the latest escalation in the dispute.
CIE group. Why so it can copy it’s good value, punctuality and excellent customer service. Don’t make me laugh. It’s easier to believe that SIPTU precipitated the strike to engineer same.
No, I leave the “jizzing” to you, I have said that I sincerely hoped the workers would see sense and not risk their jobs, unlike the AAA, I don’t want to see them used as a pawn in the game that the AAA and SIPTU want to play.
I am all for the protection of workers rights and I am all for seeing that workers are employed on decent pay and good terms and conditions,
Not once have you ever said what was wrong with their pay – not once have you said what your issue was with them working a 35 hour week and being paid a decent salary for this while having very generous terms and conditions.
Your concept of simply increasing wages – just because is just nuts, if these workers are not satisfied with their 42k plus 6% after 9 years, then they can take the experience they have, courtesy of the private firm that paid for their training and see what they can get elsewhere.
John, how can you expect the sheep, who have become blinkered sheep, to understand exactly what’s going on here.
It’s how dare an ordinary tram driver look for better wages, and how dare they inconvenience the traveling public.
They never stop to think that if the Luas workers get beaten down or sacked, the same is on the cards for them. Support them and everyone has a yardstick to work off.
It seems everyone is happy to take crumbs, and dont have the courage, or moral fiber to dare ask for more.
Its depressing.
Let’s be clear here Wally, I don’t care if Transdev ever make a profit. I’m quite sure they are as terrible as the next corporation. Neither do I care much about the wages of Luas employees, that’s between them and their paymasters.
But I do care about the standards of people. How they act and behave towards their fellow citizens. The Luas employees collectively acted like spoiled children on Easter Sunday. They asked Transdev to cancel their planned “scab service” and negotiate in good faith only to turn around and break that faith themselves at a days notice. Presumably the motivation was to hurt Transdev but they knew there would be significant collateral damage amongst the public and they did it anyway.
Labour, both as a collective movement and socio-economic force, can only protect it’s interests if it maintains the upper hand morally. These people let themselves down with how they behaved; the schism they are now trapped in is of their own making. And if AAA wanted to have any semblance of moral authority on this issue going forward they should have called the childish nonsense around Easter Sunday out for what it is.
In short, these people aren’t right just because they’re “one of us” and if you want to practice blind faith in something then perhaps you could join a religion? Because it’s a horrendous trait in politics.
They asked for more Dave and they were offered more.
They were offered 18% over 3 years, 6% a year.
What was wrong with that?
Keep commenting wally and re-affirm to the journals readers why 96% of the popultlation didn’t vote for the AAA … your more of a help to FF FG LAB and SF then you are to the AAA
Wally, the Infinite as you describe it was allows for the Drivers to be already on very good pay and conditions. The better the company does generally the better its employees do.
I know plenty of people over the past 20/30 years that made a lot of money on share options in various multinational companies.
Maybe the Luas drivers should use their annual 6% bonus (money for nothing) to buy Transdev shares.
Don’t you have a job to go to Wally? Oh that’s right…..We’re paying your mortgage…
Your name is very apt
Jasus John Mullen, you’re worse than Wally. Get a grip man
What you’re advocating is fraud Dave Doyle
I think this might actually get the luas drivers to stop taking advice from siptu
So tell us what is wrong with their pay and conditions?
LUAS Driver:
As Per scales eg’s
Year 2 €36,978
Year 5 €38,666
Year 9 €42,247
Plus 6.5% bonus.
Contracted for 39 hours
Work average 35.45 hours
Paid full sick leave for 7 weeks.
Half pay for a further 26 weeks.
Pension scheme 5% from employee
matched with 5% from
employer after 1 year of
service
1/3 gross annual basic
salary paid to spouse up to
her/her death
Paid for by Company in full
via an insurance scheme
Death in service
3 times lump sum payment
of basic salary on death
Paid for by Company in full
via an insurance scheme
Income
protection
Payable after 26 weeks up
to age 65. Benefit is half
pay less social welfare.
Paid for by Company in full
via an insurance scheme
(An income protection scheme fully paid for by the big bad employer)
Annual
leave
including
any service
days
20 days on commencement
21 days after 3 years’
service
22 days after 5 years’
service
24 days after 10 years’
service
Compassionate leave, maternity leave/
Other
benefits
Nurses on site annually for
blood pressure, cholesterol,
pulse checks and health
advice paid for by Company
Employee Assistance
Programme provided
Free Parking
Free Luas Travel
Now, would you kindly tell us Wally – what is wrong with this salary and this very, very generous package?
Panty, nothing on the surface of what you say. But the terms and conditions that came with the offer were a bit to much.
Personally, i’ve no time for SIPTU. And i am wary of how they went about organising the negotiations. SIPTU have supported the government on many issues that that defy their status as a trade union. The Luas workers themselves have every right to look for better money. The basis of their claim is looking for parity with other rail workers. That is debatable. Having said that, i support their right to strike for better money. The real truth is not what is carried by mainstream media. It makes the workers look like greedy ****s. The fact that the traveling public are inconvenienced doesn’t help their case. But i wish people would see beyond the headlines.
Paul Lanigan …. is that me you’re directing that comment at? Fraud????
A great explanation of some facts Patlyndo.
Dave, I have posted the t&c’s that exist now. None of these have been eroded, the new entrants already start on lower pay, this was negotiated back in 2010, the LUAS drivers want newer staff to be paid the same – but they want them to work all the unsocial hours – how is that fair?
They were offered 6% a year, they were actually asked to do the hours that they have always been contracted to do – but never did, meaning that they were paid for hours they never worked – there has to be compromise and part was that they do the actual hours they have been paid for.
I have always found that within the constraints placed upon them by the resources available to them CIE group provide an excellent service.
I can not say the same about the Luas and the fact that they are making massive profits and refuse to share those with their employees speaks volumes about the kind of company they are.
Get rid of transdev
CIE worker alert.
If you think that earning 32k a year is minimum wage you must be joking! The nurses, doctors, even the Garda earn less than these wan*ers who are looking for a ridiculous amount of money for pushing a button
But the people in the government can get 95 k a year plus bonus and no one says stop not sure 60 k is right but we need a fairer society for all
@Wally … nobody is stopping the workers (or anyone for that matter) from investing in the company via the stockmarket and making profits that way
Yes they can Gerry – politics is open for everyone, put yourself up for the next election.
And silence from his great Walliness – Wally continually compares this to the lockout – oh how James Connolly would be proud – let me tell you if James Connolly was offered those hours, that salary, the t&c’s and the very generous package – he would have snapped the hand off any company.
I can see him giving a big face palm now – how bloody stupid can you be to think for a moment that these tram workers and this strike was anything like the lockout.
Panty, i’ll beg leave to check what you state out, before i comment. A lot of the t&cs are statuary in any normal employment contract. The salary scales differ of course. The Luas workers want parity with other rail workers. I’ve yet to check what train drivers get.
While supporting the Luas workers, i still do not trust SIPTU.
“A lot of the t&cs are statuary in any normal employment contract.”
Sorry, but that is nonsense, paid sick leave, 5 weeks holidays, income protection plan, pension etc… These are not statutory.
“The salary scales differ of course”
They do, they are much higher than many jobs in the private sector.
” The Luas workers want parity with other rail workers”
Who cares, they work for a private firm, do we pay bouncers and security men/women the same as prison officers and Garda (not 23k but when they are on their full scales.).
Do we pay creche workers the same as teachers?
LUAS drivers pay is compared to other light rail drivers who work for the same company in other countries and they get far more.
http://www.transdevireland.ie/assets/files/LUAS%20Transdev%20T’s%20and%20C’s.pdf
It’s all there Dave.
Your son is stupid .. He takes after you .. People have rights
Wally. Connolly was wounded in the GPO. Had he not been he too would have been shouting out the window at the looters on the far side of the street to stop robbing what other workers and decent people could not afford.
I’m not sure the luas driver’s conditions warrant this type of rant. Certainly we all have the right to a fair wage for our labours, it seems on the face of it that the luas drivers were not being treated unfairly and indeed were offered a rise well ahead of inflation for years into the future. Their union is misguided. Connolly wouldn’t be happy about that.
Patlyndo Please cut and paste these details every time the Luas dispute is mentioned in social media. People need to see the facts as the media outlets dont seem to publish details. Well done to you.
Look, I actually agree with most of what you’ve said, but I think in this case you’re not quite on the ball. This is a private company that actually pays its employees quite well, but which is also running at a loss. I do think that nurses and Gardai should be paid more but luas workers are already quite well paid. They’re not working for some Ebenezer Scrooge who is taking home billions while they’re paid peanuts, and to be honest, that is something many others workers are dealing with!!
They turned down an 18% pay rise. Looks like they gambled and lost.
If 2104 to 66 is indicative of the support the drivers have I think SIPTU have backed the wrong horse!
Wally,
Without investment by the “capitalist ruling class” you would not have a tram to drive.
Wally,
Where do you think your pension will come from?
Like it or hate it they are playing hard ball. Results will follow. Fortune will always favour the brave
The magic money tree.
A lot of red noses in this tent. Enjoy working in the circus lads
Lets pay them a million each then, after that we should pay teachers half a million (as they only work half the hours) The Guards and the nurses should get 3/4 of a mill – just to maintain pay parity etc. sure the economy will be booming in no time with the extra millions/billions collected in tax.
“A DAY TO DAY BASIS” ?
What the hell ,? The basic requirement is 2 weeks notice . Thats a right .(a HUMAN RIGHT in Europe)
They should ALLLLLLlllll stop their trams at an appointed time wherever they are and go home .
And show the Company what “DAY TO DAY” means in reality .
See if the managers can jump into taxis real quick and figure out how to move the damn things .
Bring Dublin City to a standstill .
What the company is saying in straighforward language is ” Your dispenceable ” ,your barely worth paying”
They should abandon their trams at a specific time , apologise to comuters , lock their cabin and go home , so that the Company KNOWS what “day to day basis” means
Train drivers are quite well paid .
But it takes (i think ) 6 years experience before being put on the Mail-line .
2 years shunting .
2 years more advanced shunting .
Then 2 years as co-driver ……..before theyre able to drive .
What their company did and said is disgraceful , but they cant be on parity with rail drivers .
The Railway is far more complex and you have to learn every light /signal / incline and turn between here and Cork
They cant put them on parity with train drivers
I was getting involved with aaa , was very supportive of their ideals . But after all this I hope Paul Murphy gets jailed and the luas drivers all get p45s. Hopefully this is the death nail in spitu’s coffin , nothing but a corrupt political entity ,rotten to the core.
That’ll be up to the new company that takes over when Transdev walks.
Wally, AAA would pay Luas drivers 250k a year – then tax them at 95%. Do AAA know you’re on here every day making a mockery of their causes?
The biggest red thumb count in history…and counting
I sincerely hope transdev have spent all of this time training a new batch of drivers.
I say they could easily get a few recently graduated gaurds to take the job
I hope they have spent all this time getting a new union??
Will their job description change from tram driver to scab driver
What I find odd about this conversation is people attacking other people for trying to better themselves while the banks and politicians rape this country of its wealth.its crazy we are over 200billion in debt and nobody is complaining about that strange country we live in.
Well I am going on strike as well because were in recovery so they say anyway.time for business to pay back now they have gotten enough cheap labour from us Celtic tiger part 2 here we come….I hope mr government wasn’t telling porkies about the recovery if they have I wont be happy about the lies
They’re not trying to better themselves. They’re trying to get paid a lot more for an unskilled job than lots of highly skilled and qualified people who have ‘bettered themselves’. They’ve made a very dangerous bet that the company won’t lay them off and now they can see I what happens. Let’s face it, wouldn’t take a lot to train people to replace them. If you take this sort of risk you should really make sure that your job is more difficult than an average video game
What’s wrong with their pay and t&c’s now? What was wrong the payrise they were offered?
They are not trying to ‘better’ themselves. They are being exceptionally greedy wanting a higher wage than others who have ‘bettered’ themselves by a higher education.
Let them all go and hire someone who wants to push the stick forwards and backwards.
SIPTU…… ENTITLEMENT WITHOUT RESPONSIBILITY
I just want to point out an obvious hypocrisy on the part of a lot of people here. We are in the process of commemorating 1916 and one of it’s most influential leaders was a certain James Connolly. He was one of the very few with actual military experience and with his own private army he apparently controlled operations in the GPO. Connolly was a militant socialist who believed in the fundamental right of unionism and the right to withdraw labour. He supported UNSKILLED workers and the lockout of 1913 involved a lot of tram drivers. These workers would have had a relatively good jobs considering the cost of living at the time and apparently Wm Martin Murphy wasn’t a complete b*stard of an employer all the time. The 100 year symmetry is interesting. Now I don’t think Luas workers have it too bad and I think SIPTU have made a balls of the thing, but there should be no doubt that Connolly would support them regardless. You know it’s easy to say – oh sure weren’t they a great bunch of lads – from 100 years remove, but some things haven’t changed all that much and it’s interesting to see the reaction and viewpoint of some people here.
@an beal
They fought for fair treatment not the ability to make unreasonable demands and strangle hold the public.
What people like you want to do is make it sound like the public are turning their backs on the foundation of our state. The reality is we are not prepared to be bullied for unreasonable demands.
The difference is that working conditions for unskilled labour 100 years ago were remarkably different to working conditions today.
Beal – I would normally support workers in endeavours such as these, as I believe a fair wage such be enjoyed by all. The luas drivers already have a fair wage so can get stuffed.
Who exactly decides what are reasonable demands though? I’m just pointing how people are saying oh its unskilled labour so they should be barely entitled to any form of industrial action or worse that it should be automated! It’s all relative. If you had a job in 1913 it was the difference between penury and relative comfort. They had jobs and yet those guys took huge risks to strike. Indeed it badly backfired on most of them and employers have had the upper-hand since in this state.
Let me repeat SIPTU have not covered themselves in glory by any means and I don’t think they have served the workers well here, who are down on pay considerably as a result.
Beal
You are just making stuff up now. Unions are very powerful in this country.
SIPTU are using the Luas drivers as pawns in order to get pay rises for other workers. Most people can see that.
no one is suggesting that they don’t have any entitlement to industrial action. People are disgusted that went on strike over the easter weekend, and, more importantly, they do not think that their pay claims have any basis in reality.
There is no valid comparison between the tram workers in1913 and 2016 – in 2016 they have well paying jobs, paid holidays, bonuses for simply doing their job. They are going on strike over a pay claim that is about 8 times the rate of inflation.
Kal, Unions have become largely powerless in one sense, certainly in terms of fighting for the workers, as they have jumped into bed with the government over the last 20 years. In another sense they are very powerful as organisations themselves in that they have become largely part of the establishment along with their overpaid “salaries”. The Government have now sub-contracted out so many services that they are happy for someone else to take the “hassle” of dealing with labour demands.
in My view the Luas drivers are doing a low skilled job, they work in a monopoly were there is no competition, they took NO PAY cut while lots of people lost there jobs, there contract give them a pay increase as the economy/cost of living increase, but as there is no inflation this has resulted in no increase, same with everyone. if they looked for a 2% maybe even 5%, grand but to ask for a double digit increase is pure greed. They already get ABOVE average wages. if you increase their pay, the ticket price & as a result all those on average & below average wages will be worse off, remember half the people get below average wages, do you think that a Luas Driver should get above average wages in a fair economy & if so WHO should get less than average,…
I say again it’s all relative. In 1913 if you didn’t have a job then you there was no social safety net and you were in complete penury. Therefore you had even more reason to be grateful to your employer and less reason to strike on them. If a Luas driver was unemployed now he would be entitled to a hell of a lot in terms of social welfare and health and education etc. Their initial demands were ridiculous but everyone knows it was a starting point that SIPTU thought foolishly they could lever power with. Once again it is workers, both those driving trams and those trying to get to work that lose out.
Beal
Basically you are saying you are the only one who can see what is really happening. You are blind to actual reality the unions remain immensely powerful. They are well paid and are looking for unreasonable pay increases. That is the point and that is how the vast majority see it rather than blindly supporting workers.
The Luas workers are only down on pay because of their own greed. All Jack O’Connor is doing is taking advantage of the current lack of government and causing problems for everyone.
God, “blindly supporting workers” – given the recent Panama “revelations”, the manner in which white collar crime has been treated in this country and the bailouts of banks, developers etc etc then a country that might blindly support workers doesn’t actually sound all that bad.
The actions of corrupt individuals does not excuse blatant extortion.
@An_Beal_Bocht , Do you think that it is fair that others that use the transport system to get to their jobs that get paid less is fair? Do you think that James Connolly was thinking yes this shall give the LÚAS drivers the ability to hold a the company to ransom? if they do get what they want. that will mean a huge increase in fair will it not? This has been a pain for too long. 18% is a dam good increase in any wage. Plus it James Larkin that set up the Irish Transport Workers Union and the strikes
Um sick of hearing this rubbish that Connolly would have supported Luas drivers. Connolly stood firmly against greed. This is greed, plain and simple.
Also the public sector unions have immense power.
I just can’t bring myself to support a multinational company that can easily hide their profits over and above workers from here as easily as others seem to be able to. I mean I was recently affected by this when I couldn’t get from Heuston station to where I was going and yet I still wouldn’t lay all the blame at the drivers feet. All I see is a booming capital city and less and less of the work seems to be benefitting the actual employees.
have they been named and shamed yet?
Yes but if you show up late is your job on the line? I would have to get 3 buses in order to get to my job. are you sure you are not a Luas driver trolling the comments? it is about time they start letting them go. in any other europan city the tram drivers do not get as much as here. So I am sure a few of the lads be happy to come over here if all drivers were suspended for a few weeks un paid.
Jane, please don’t get me started on public sector unions. Their “power” is a total mirage. They have become just another arm of government through the social partnership scheme dreamt up by Bertie and others. They are just a puppet go between the government and workers. They have sold out time and again. They sold out the graduate teachers, nurses and gardai. Their main interest is in pay as this is also an increase for them, class sizes, gardai numbers, worker conditions are pale second after-thoughts.
Compare the working rights of a teacher or nurse in the 70′s or 80′s to the mess now – unstable contracts, unnecessary paper work, increased hours purely for the sake of it to keep certain salaries inflated, the level of sub-contracting in the public sector is through the roof which is privatisation by the back door and fills the likes of the Healy-Rae’s pockets. Procurement is the biggest department in most governmental agencies now.
Beal
There you go we have the root of your problem self identified. You don’t care what is reasonable pay request you just hate multinationals. You are prepared to blindly support a workers.
You aren’t using reason.
Beal Bocht benchmarking increased wages in the public sector on a massive scale right across the board and brought their wage up to one of the highest in Europe. I know teachers and nurses and guards deserve what they get and more but there are swathes of the public sector doing sweet FA for years and getting very well paid for it.
Evidence please of swathes of the public sector doing sweet FA and getting well paid for it. Or have you been the sold by the print media and their vicious attempt to divide the public and private sectors who both have poorly paid employees. I worked in the public sector from 03 to 08 and people actually laughed in my face when I told them my salary.
Not only that but I worked longer hours than teachers, had more qualifications and dealt with way more abuse than them.
Kal, I don’t hate them at all, I just have a healthy mistrust of them and their accountants, if you worked for them you would understand. Tell me exactly how I’m not using reason.
I worked in it too. I worked in private sector and took a huge pay cut to go into public service within about 2 years I was back up to what I’d been earning in private sector for way less hours and a 9 to 5 Mon to Fri job. I have seen it first hand and although I’m no longer in public sector I see it constantly in the area I’m in now with the dealings I have with LAs.
I suspect Beal is a new incarnation of Wally…
Who decides what’s unreasonable? Society. And society has decided a tram driver shouldn’t be earning more than the national industrial wage. It’s literally a job a trained monkey could do.
@Mackeral.. thats what we need.. two fecking eejits on here spouting sh*te.. These “workers” are grossly overpaid as they are for doing a simple job that yes could be automated.. They are making it hard for thousands of people that depend on this service to get to work(me included). Absolute joke.. And no Connolly would not support them. He would be ashamed at what greed these people are showing and what the unions have turned into.
These workers were offered an 18% increase over 2.5 years. You can’t compare this with the 1913 lockout or 1916.
But it is benefiting the employees and every one of us. Transdev are paid a set fee for providing the service and the increase in profits resulting from the increase in passenger numbers goes to the exchequer, repaying the initial investment in the luas and providing for future investment in infrastructure. take that money out and only a minority benefit, i.e. the drivers. solidarity my ass. Sack em.
Connolly supported mistreated workers in need of help, not greedy employees with sense of entitlement. I would argue unions have betrayed Connolly ideals. fat cat salaries enjoyed by union leaders and putting needs of a few ahead of societies needs are contradictory to the grateful man’s views
Beal
You aren’t using logic or reason by starting with an assumption. I have worked in private and public service again you assumed I and others here haven’t furthering your bad judgment.
You have specified you believe that multinationals are hiding profit. At least inferring that this is the case with the Luas. All of which shows obvious bias. If you think that is all reasonable then you don’t understand reason or logic
Because of unions and struggles similar to this, or do you think it was because of the generosity of multinationals??
You should start at the hypocrisy of Jack O’Connor on a eye watering salary in excess of 100k (Plus expenses plus pension contributions) before you start preaching your rubbish here/
it high time these disgraceful drivers were make an example of :)
I don’t support the Luas drivers because I think they are well paid already for the job they do, which is not overly difficult and can be done with 7 weeks training. However, I’d draw the line at a Luas driven by a monkey, trained or not…
The only thing that is relative is that if the few Luas workers get more pay then transport fares will have rise for everyone else…..applied logic.
automate the luas and just delete the drivers :)
I blame SIPTU
Beal bocht No Connolly would be support real working class on low pay, zero hours contracts etc. The relative t&c’s between then and now are miles apart.
The commuter decides!
Here we go again… What about the bankers….blah… What about Panama blah ..
Jane yes, you are right. Benchmarking shifted the balance hugely in favour of the public sector, at the expense of the private sector workers.
And for that 18% over 2.5 for a segment of the drivers, all of the drivers would be required to work longer hour, and as well new entrants would face a pay cut, with a longer salary scale.
The WRC deal amounted to bringing in Yellow pack contracts for new staff.
We hear Enda and co spouting all of the time about this ‘recovery’ but when some workers demand a better share of the pie, they are demonised in the press, and the crucified by the public.
For those that object to the fact that the luas workers get paid more than starting nurses or themselves etc. I put this question to them. Will a defeat of the luas drivers put a single penny into a nurses pocket, and will it make it easier or more difficult for them to win better wages and conditions for these other jobs?
“And for that 18% over 2.5 for a segment of the drivers, all of the drivers would be required to work longer hour, and as well new entrants would face a pay cut, with a longer salary scale.”
New entrants are already on a lower pay – the LUAS staff and SIPTU agreed to this in 2010.
The LUAS drivers want new staff to do unsocial hours – because they’re new/
You can’t fight for “equality” when it suits and then treat newer staff differently at the same time.
The “extra” hours, was still within their 39 hours per week that they are contracted to do
Normal
Weekly
Hours of
work
Contracted for 39 hours
Work average 35.45 hours
Contracted for 39 hours
Work average 37.20 hours
Contracted for 39 hours
Work average 37.26 hours
Contracted 39 hours
Work average 37.5 hours
It’s called negotiating – they should have tried it.
New Entrants would have been starting on a lower payscale, than the lowest paid on the existing payscale, under the WRC deal.
New entrants are already on lower pay, as agreed by the union and the staff in 2010 – that sacred seal has already been broken.
Patlyndo Very well put. Most public arent aware that luas union actually want to shaft new entrants to the job by getting them to do the unsocial hours. Most public arent aware that luas drivers previously voted for lower wages for new entrants. Mean and greedy… yet suported by AAA… You couldnt wmnake this stuff up.
I find that ironic mcginty – claiming to want equality for newer drivers, while demanding that they do the unsocial hours – crazy stuff altogether.
So what’s your argument for going back to dark those days Herr Culligan? Zero hour contracts for ordinary workers and ‘high end’ wealth ownership entitlement to tax heavens?
Whoever taught you such divisive economics and social values should be shot with balls of their own shite, I’d say.
I’m not sure about previous votes, but I do know that they refused to sell out new starts this time. So please tell me how the union wants to shaft new entrants
I think I’ll send in a cv to transdev with a cover letter supporting their stance. I’d give my right arm for the pay and conditions these wasters are turning their nose up to. Lock them out and recruit again.
Great idea, I think thousands should do that. Transdev would have a much stronger hand to play if they knew how vast the public support was for them as opposed to these militant workers.
Listened to Transdev two weeks ago, they are inundated with job applications.
close it down that would be perfect karma for the greedy staff :)
Emachine the capitalist lickarse lol
AN other, Looks like theres many hundred concur with Emachine and not many agreeing with your trite comment, based on thumbs. Go off and have a think.
All the actual facts and figures aside about how much of an unreasonable claim this is. You (SIPTU/Luas Drivers) Chose to shut down the system for Easter Sunday on our centenary. what ever smidgen of sympathy you had (if any) you’ve actually turned that to disgust. Pure greed, and contempt for the traveling public.
Honestly, I don’t understand how anyone can support a group that were demanding up to 50% wage increases from a loss-making private enterprise.
Jason, if you can provide one single shred of evidence that the Luas in Dublin is operating at a loss then please do so. I’m sorry but the line that a multi-national private holding company that is managing the operating contract and with contracts throughout the world told us that it isn’t making an overall profit does not cut it.
Beal Bocht, So do you think if a company is making a profit the staff should benefit from that profit? Now I’m not talking about a decent wage for the job their doing or good benefits and conditions, I’m talking about a share of the profit.
i would take great pleasure in firing every single one of them :)
It has actually been independently verified that Transdev are loss-making. Even SIPTU accepted that Transdev as a whole are making a loss. The Luas is making a profit but, lets be honest with ourselves, the Luas is a pretty small tram route when you look at the international portfolio of Transdev.
Thanks for clearing that up. I mean are for you real?? So tram drivers operating an increasingly profitable tram service should be negatively affected as a multinational company apparently/according to them isn’t making a profit. Is that where we’re at now like? Transdev need to be cut loose if they can’t operate this profitable contract and keep staff onside. In fact I think there’s a provision in the contract that if Transdev can’t provide the service they can be let go. If that means new workers so be it. You can then throw your application in sure if it sounds so great.
Jane I don’t quite understand your question, I mean the drivers are obviously already benefitting from and taking a share of the profit – where else do you think their wages come from?
So if Apple were losing money globally but their Irish subsidiary was doing well, you’d support the Irish workers demanding a 50% pay rise?
I’m sorry, but the workers are employed by Transdev which is a global company. If the company isn’t doing well globally then how do the employees expect to receive a 50% pay rise and still have a job to return to in the coming years?
You asked Jason if there is any evidence that the LUAS in Dublin is making a loss – and then you say that the company isn’t making an overall profit?
Those are two different questions – Transdev are making a loss in Dublin – google it yourself.
The state who OWN LUAS – made 30 million in profits in 2014 – the difference between the cost of the contract and ticket revenues.
This money is being invested into the new line saving us – the taxpayer money and why do you think that other countries where they operate should cover the losses here?
“This money is being invested into the new line”
This is the bit that seems to rile up the workers and their supporters. They seem to think and they’re “entitled” to some of this “profit”. They’d rather any extra revenue was “invested” into their pockets than actually helping the public, the working class, the transport system.
And historically, that’s exactly what happened. CIE staff were lavished with generous pay increases, while the network went backwards.
Their wages come from the fee paid to Transdev from the state to run the service
The contract is 150 million over 5 years. Whether the LUAS carries one passenger or 100 or 1000, the company gets the same fee.
The company do NOT get the revenue from the fares, this revenue goes to the NTA – in 2014 the revenue from the fares totalled 180 million, after paying Transdev their agreed rate, the state had 30 million euro to re-invest into the new LUAS line, thereby saving the taxpayer.
Any increase in wages WILL be reflected in 2019 when the contract ends, any new company will factor this in and all and any bids will be more than 150 million, meaning LESS revenue for the state and more money from the taxpayer to complete the works.
SE, I don’t think they understand this, certainly some of the commentators here don’t get it.
Good Point! And not forgetting State’s initial investment in LUAS infrastructure – something of the order of €1 bn or thereabouts – which undoubtedly was initially financed by Debt and must now be serviced annually and repaid over the long term.
If Siptu think there’s a pot of gold at the end of this particular rainbow…think again!
The unions have to be realistic and accept that a market rate exists for every job, based primarily on skill levels, degree of training required, educational qualifications and experience.
Thankfully, the days of State Sponsored Bodies being suckered and stretched on a rack for gold plated terms and conditions of employment, by bully boys in the unions, ultimately at the expense of fellow citizens, are long since gone.
And it’s EU legislation we can thank for that mercy, as in the past, our political leaders rolled over all too easily at the first sign of industrial strife at Public Sector level, something that has cost us dear, and the financial affects of which are lumbered on future generations.
Rory, while the AAA bleat their rubbish and actually want PS pay and conditions restored to what they were in 2006 – they conveniently ignore that we have a generation of PS retired workers now and into the future (until new conditions kick in) on bigger pensions then the wages they worked for (not blaming them as these where their entitlements), we have retired PS workers receiving pensions for longer then they worked and every time PS pay was increased in the boom, their pensions were also increased.
There are departments in the state where their pension bills are higher then their wages costs – the taxpayer has to fund this.
This was unsustainable – it is unsustainable.
Yet the AAA want to go back to this – absolute madness.
Why are so few people able to comprehend the logic of this?
Patilndo, I don’t support the Luas drivers but you do seem to have a rather nasty bee in your bonnet about all things Public Sector, if things were so good why then didn’t you bend over backwards to get a job within the Public Sector??.
Care to elaborate on that William?
Can you point out where the information that I posted, could possibly lead you to believe that? Did you miss this part:
“)not blaming them as these where their entitlements)”
Would you care to comment on the actual post and not your misinterpretation of the post?
Do you really think that we can sustain DB pensions into the future without it having a knock on somewhere else?
Do you agree with the AAA when they state that they would reverse all the cuts?
BTW William, you do realise that LUAS workers are no public sector workers? You do don’t you?
Look Patlyndo once an article comes up on the journal with Public Service in the headline you pounce on it quicker than fork lightning, pensions been a particular thorn in your side, most Public Sector workers are on small pensions handy but you won’t be planning any expensive foreign holidays on it, and yes over a period of time PS pay should be gradually brought back up to pre 2008 levels, many PS workers took savage cuts as did those in the Private Sector, but pre 2008 the Private Sector was raking it in even builders labourers were making great money much more than the average Public Sector worker.
I don’t believe in this divide and conquer attitude that is often barely hidden in many of your posts, we all took a hit for the greed of others.
“Look Patlyndo once an article comes up on the journal with Public Service in the headline you pounce on it quicker than fork lightning, pensions been a particular thorn in your side, ”
Ah, so you’re not commenting on this article, you’re attacking me – ok.
This –
“most Public Sector workers are on small pensions handy but you won’t be planning any expensive foreign holidays on it”.
And this:
“And yes over a period of time PS pay should be gradually brought back up to pre 2008 levels”
Is where my issue is. To bring the pay back to those levels, means reversing the pay cuts and getting rid of the pension levy.
It’s not so much what PS workers get, rather it’s how it’s funded and it’s not, it comes from current expenditure as I am sure you know.
The simple explanation is down to future taxpayers, the stats go like this, at one point we had 5 workers to one pension – in the near future that is down to 2 workers.
Do you have kids? They’ll be working until they’re 75 before they get a state pension.
You don’t mention the full facts, a “small pension” ( state pension inc with that post 1995) for say a post 1995 worker on 30k equals a pension of almost 20k per annum and a once off tax free lump sum of 45k.
There’s your “small” pension in all its glory.
Let’s take a PRSI worker earning the average wage contribute 7 euro a week to their state entitlements.
40 years later they haven’t even paid 15k into the system, for this they are entitled to sick pay, maternity leave, the dole for a period and the OAP from 67.
233.30 is 12k a year. In 14 months they have collected what they put in, that’s if they haven’t availed of the benefits beforehand.
“but pre 2008 the Private Sector was raking it in even builders labourers were making great money much more than the average Public Sector worker.”
And? They worked for private companies who did well and paid well, are you trying to claim the the PS didn’t do well in the boom? I would beg to differ.
“I don’t believe in this divide and conquer attitude that is often barely hidden in many of your posts, we all took a hit for the greed of others.”
The PS are some of the “others”, I dislike when any sector, public or private, ignores their very good benefits and tries to pretend they don’t exist.
And the next time you are watching what I post, actually read the posts. If you think the banking crisis was bad – then you have no idea what is coming down the road in relation to pensions.
The bailout will be minuscule in comparison. And we only have ourselves to blame because no government has the balls to tackle the problem.
I’ll be retired William, where will you be?
I’m well aware Patlyndo of the future problems as regards pensions its not just an Irish problem but a global one, I don’t pretend be any sort of financial expert, of the so called financial experts the vast majority failed to predict the global crash of 2008?.
Here is a start drastically cut the absurd pensions on the upper rung of the Public Sector ladder, rich OAP’s should not be entitled to any help from the state ie medical cards, children allowance should be means tested ridiculous that a couple making €300,00 per annum are still entitled to child benefit?, and how about governments combine to close off all these tax avoidance loopholes which cost them trillions, and make a concerted effort to hunt down the tax evaders instead of you constantly attacking all and sundry within the public service of which the vast majority are on low wages and will have paltry pensions on retirement, that should go a long way to helping out future governments to pay their retirees?.
Good to see Transdev take a stand against pure greed and call out SIPTU. Normally I’d back workers in these situations but not this time
Why not this time exactly? Would you support them if their wages were lower to begin with or if their demands were different, or if they were only going to strike on Mondays and Tuesdays?
Their demands are excessive for the role, simple as that. They are or SIPTU are benchmarking themselves against Irish rail drivers and they are not in the same league! Not even in the same league as bus drivers – a way more difficult job. Their shop steward should be relieved of duties ASAP and get realistic about their pay expectations.
SIPTU have brinkmanshipped this to the limit. TransDev should do a Ronnie Reagan and call their bluff. It takes 6 weeks to train a LUAS Driver. Fire the lot of them and shut the LUAS down for 6 weeks. They’ll never try anything again after that.
That’s exactly what Transdev are planning from the information that’s out there. Protective notice is the first step towards mass sackings if these overpaid drivers continue their industrial action.
Same with Gardai , nurses , doctors, teachers, state should start recruiting from other countries and sack any off them if they strike and use the foreign staff on cheaper wages
Different situation. Much more difficult job, deserve increases.
Great idea then you can sue when you don’t get the medical treatment you think is your right !
michael – as it appears you haven’t been to a hospital in the past 30 years – we already to that in the case of doctors & nurses
the support the company is getting from the public is unparalleled, lets hope the drivers are all put on protective notice it serves them right :D
G’wan SIPTU, yizer playin a blinder on this one lads.
Wait till they start paying out the strike pay you will see a change in there tune.
Strike pay is only if you are on strike for 3 or more days in a row…
That’s handy for SIPTU – if it’s true.
I’m honestly surprised Transdev were still willing to offer *any* kind of raise.
They reduced the offer by 10% to reflect the losses they have sustained.
So they dropped their offer from 18% to 8%? That’s still very high considering the fact that Luas drivers are already among the best paid tram drivers in Europe.
I am looking for the link, but basically (IIRC) the company said, look, we’ve lost money and here’s a new offer taking those facts into account.
The gas thing is SE, that SIPTU now out accusing the company of making threats, what do they expect the company to do, continue losing money, continue operating a part time service?
Cave in to their demands – Transdev have full public support, their own customers fully support them – they are playing a blinder in the PR game – SIPTU – watch and learn.
It’s a valid reason to reduce the money on the table. It’s obvious that SIPTU are completely out of their depth when it comes to this dispute. They’re dealing with a French company that has quite a bit of experience with dealing with strikes and, quite frankly, Transdev are making a show of SIPTU and the drivers.
As others have previously said, this is probably the most unpopular strike in the history of the state.
transdev are an inspiration to us all, face down the bullies
reducing 18% by 10% would still be 16.2%
Jason, It has been said that this strike is being led by the staff and that SIPTU can do nothing but follow their lead.
It truly is the worst industrial campaign in recent memory in terms of PR.
Thanks, that was just the laugh I needed! ;-)
Ignore that response , it dumped in the wrong place – was replying to the comment on SIPTU only following :-)
Quick unrelated note because something I’m interested in was highlighted above. 18% take away 10% is indeed 16.2%, many people would instinctively call it 8%. The way to express that is to say “the offer was reduced by 10 percentage points, 18% to 8%.”
Not trying to be a know it all, just find it interesting when this issue rears its head!
Tom, who do you think SIPTU are exactly?
They “represent” the workers, they can only do what the staff allow them to do. They cannot withdraw their support, they can make recommendations to them, they can advise them – but unless the staff agree to a deal – SIPTU cannot force them to do anything.
Solidarity with Transdev! Fight the good fight.
The workers should not just take over this company they should take over every company. It is the workers who create the wealth. The infrastructure created by capitalists for capitalists should be destroyed. Solidarity among the working classes will overcome all obsticles.
Great Wally impersonation there Leo, just remember to use your /sarcasm font next time.
Think you might be on to a loser there Leo.
I’m just surprised he didn’t manage to blame the IRA for it somehow.
We might end up living in squalor on the streets but at least we will have our pride. Where’s Wally?
Actually, the IRA tried to destroy us but they failed.
Haha, good man.
Called communism … Read 1984
I am not sure 1984 would be approved by the Ministry of Truth.
“It is the workers who create the wealth…”
Isn’t the Luas loss making?
Forget 1984, just read about 20th century history.
Blame the ‘West brits’
Blame the Labour party for tagging themselves onto SIPTU……
This is where we need strong political leadership – Margaret Thatcher style.
When the unions hold society to ransom – break them.
While I agree in what you’re getting at please leave that despicable tramp out of it.
If you agree with the policy, then you agree with a fundamental of Thatcherism so why complain about using her name? At least have the good grace to acknoweldge her contribution to breaking unions and to changing the nature of the workplace. If your solidarity is with her over the Luas workers then why not just state it outright?
I agree, whatever about her, she took no s*it. we need the unions crushed and this strike put to bed.. I am so p*ssed off with it. Those extra 6 days are going to make my commute to work a b*tch now as the bus service is very very slow and not regular at all. But no, carry on lads, you deserve your ridiculous wages.
all unions need to be crushed by any means possible :)
Solidarity with Transdev!
I’ll drive the luas for the minimum wage. It’s a cushy number sitting on you backside all day long..
@dni The last thing we need is drivers working for minimum wage.It will be a race to the bottom then.They deserve a fair wage but I think they earn that already so I’ve no sympathy for them.
John it was just my opinion, and I would be happy with that.
nurses and gardai would love to be able to strike like that for better pay and conditions there oath leaves them without the ultimate power to withdraw labour for a fair wage I think it is important that the country supports them when they do ask for more cash in the next few months. As for teachers I hope they enjoy finishing up for the summer holidays.
As a teacher’s husband I can assure ypu the holidays are less than enjoyable when you spend them looking for yet another short term contract or temping for September.
It will be okay after a couple of years Neal, CID will kick in and everything will be grand, just hang on in there for a while.
Non permanent teachers are on the dole for the summer while they try to find work for the next school year. It’s not a holiday, it’s unemployment
Hey lets use an unrelated article to have a pop at someone. It’s great when people have a go at teachers about their holidays especially when they really are too dim to see the bigger picture. Around 30% of teachers are on the dole during holidays and a drain on services.
But let’s look at the students. Many students throughout the country have no continuity of subjects, unprepared for exams, new teacher after new teacher losing track of the curriculum, lose out on extra-curricular (as one teacher could be great at drama, the next would be great at football). No such thing as permanent contracts anymore is bad for students. The fluid nature of teaching is bad for students.
Who cares though? Lets just have a go at teachers. Lets make them work through the summer. Who cares about tired students who also need a break from classrooms and the stress of school.
You probably didn’t get the points to get into teaching, bitter much?
Nurses and Gardai are overpaid as it is reduce the huge pay levels for the older staff and give it to the new recruits
release the names of all the drivers if there is nothing shameful in what they are doing.
Does anyone know how long Transdev have the operating licence for and what happens when their contract is up? If the operating licence goes back out to tender what happens the employees at Transdev if it were to go to a new operator? Would they have to negotiate new contracts with another operator or would their conditions be fixed as per the terms of the old agreement.
From what I know, their conditions will be fixed officially but SIPTU would likely try to exploit the situation to get even better pay and conditions for the drivers.
They would transfer over to the new vendor under TUPE law with original T&Cs unfortunately.
Gov has itself in a corner so. If the workers are TUPE’d over, no matter who operates the contract, then they’re defacto state employees to a degree. I.e the organ-grinder might change but the monkeys remain the same.
I would suspect that the government is supporting Transdev behind closed doors on this issue. They are no doubt aware that a SIPTU victory over Transdev would result in further calls for pay increases among CIE and Irish Rail workers.
Thanks guys, I had a suspicion that might be the case. It’s actually a good thing for the country that Transdev are holding firm on this, if they decided that this wasn’t a contract that they were going to persist with they could just accept whatever wage increases the Luas drivers demanded and carry on till the end of their contract and it would be someone elses problems (ultimately the passengers of the company of course).
No, Scarr they are not de-facto state employees to any degree, they are hired by Transdev, a private company, their contract is with them. Nothing to do with the state/
As a former member of the ITGWU I believe the present leadership of SIPTU have brought unions into disrepute.
I am a carpenter I don’t know what is around the corner but I’m not crying about it they don’t know a good thing when they see it shame.
“Siptu divisional organiser Owen Reidy “… what the hell is a “divisional organiser”?
“We had suggested intensive local talks starting today with the four grade”
Local talks? Like where… on the trams they’re not driving?
Why do all these union types talk this way?
I really do hate to see people losing their jobs – been there done that myself. But the fact that these workers are just displaying greed I really think that Transdev should fire the lot of them.
I have never been someone that would support a bigger corporation and would always support the workers – but these guys have lost the run of themselves and are asking for something that just shouldn’t be allowed.
In their first year or work – after their induction etc – these guys have a basic salary of 30K – after working for 3 years in my current job I am no where near that money – and will probably never be near it. Someone who has worked for 20+ years in most jobs won’t be anywhere near what these guys will earn after just a couple of years driving a luas and they want more. Plus these guys have job security – I am sure you would want to seriously screw up to be fired from driving a luas.
Our little country has experienced high unemployment, and we want to encourage companies to come here and invest – with such a high profile situation and demand list – this strike and action by luas drivers is doing more harm to our economy than any FF V FG Dail battle could do.
Squeaky bum time…who will blink first or have we another Gataux situation approaching??? where the UNION talk them out of their jobs!!!
Let the Luas be shut down because then Transdev would be justified in laying-off drivers because of the risk of it going out of business (not because of the drivers’ right to strike) and then it can hire people who are grateful to have a good job.
And if Irish rail drivers did the same would you sack them too ciaran
Can anyone explain to me why they think a Luas driver with 10 years experience deserves €67 k per annum?
I can understand why a new junior doctor gets €30k, and after 10 years, he will be getting €70k, makes sense, as he has experience.
He may even post grad to be a consultant, and get €160k +. He deserves it. He will be saving lives.
A tram driver gets 1 week training, and he drives a tram.
After a few weeks, he will be fully experienced in tram driving.
After 10 years, he will be still driving a tram. But he will expect €67k p.a.
Why the pay increments ??
@Buster.. eh, simple.. GREED.
I am a siptu member working in the private sector and I am ashamed of them. Got offered an 18% increase over 2.5 years and turned it down. Then went on strike for a once in a lifetime celebration.
If the Luas shuts down completely the government will be forced to cancel the contract with transdev and all those luas drivers will be earning less than 25% of their current wage on the dole. Im not sure if they would even get severance pay in that situation, one would have to read their contract.
Getting hired by another company will be hard for them due to their strike record, id be surprised if any of them got hired by the next company to operate the tram, and if they do there will be no unions allowed and their wages will have dropped tremendously.
Siptu want trans Dev to fail so contract is void they pull out and pressure is put on government to take the operations out of private operation .
Shut it down, and we, the public, represented by the Dept. Of Transport, re tender to another company.
Transdev lose the contract, and the drivers are made redundant.
That needs to focus minds.
That won’t work as the government will obviously make re-hiring the current staff a condition. They’re not going to wait for 6-8 weeks for a new operator to train entirely new staff.
Really? You think they’ll do that? Who elected them to do that? Us? Do we want that? No!
So the politicians will ignore the wishes of the electorate?
Actually Colm, from what I’ve read it’s a part of the contracts that were previously signed relating to the private operation of the Luas. A new private operator would actually be obliged to hire the current staff at current conditions.
@Colm, they always ignore the wishes of the electorate.. They havent even formed a government yet even through we told them who we want.. They can do what they want, I would have through you know that by now :/ Anyway I agree with what you say in many ways, except the company dont deserve to lose the contract, they have done nothing wrong.. The workers on other hand do deserve punishment.
As a customer, do you shop in a shop where the manager and the staff member have a massive shouting match?
No, you shop somewhere else.
And we need to rip up the contract that says we hire the previous workers.
But then again, where in that contract does it say we need to accede to their inflated demands?
To expand my previous point, as a customer, do we try and talk down the manager or the staff member to be reasonable.
No, we don’t.
Transdev & the driver’s issue are not our concern, even though we are the most affected. Our concern is receiving a service. If we cannot receive a service from Transdev, regardless of why, we must go somewhere else. Unions have the attitude that the public’s need is none of their concern, why should we not face it with likeminded attitudes?
I agree with you on that sentiment Colm.. But a new company comes in, and then those workers get the hump and strike and we are in same boat in a years time with diff workers/company.. Ideally the contracts need to be all altered to stop companies being held to ransom like this.. As always the users are the ones suffering..
These are the types of restrictions put in because of union pressure over the years – we are now at the stage where the union abuse of our transport sector is finally pushing them (and the rest of us) into a corner.
Those sold-out traitors occupying Liberty Hall are fully responsible for this situation and the limited responses available to their blackmail.
And the new operator shouldn’t employ any present least workers
No. I disagree with the strike, but not the right to strike. What happens in a few years if drivers are put in a position where they’re driving 8 hours until the last tram at midnight and then the 8 hours after the first tram at 5am? Not going to happen of course, but we can’t say *never* strike.
I don’t blame Transdev one bit for the protective notice. Drivers brought it on themselves. I just hate that they’ll be mentioned in the same breath as guards, nurses teachers & telco workers, who *do* have legitimate grievances.
About time transdev started playing hardball!
What did people do before it ? Shut it down ! They are overpaid blackmailers
Lock them out and get it over and done with. I hope sooty has enough funds in their strike pay to cover all this .
I’m left wing at the best of times but these excessive pay claims for a very unskilled job lack any substance. Ultimately the public will be forced to pay much higher costs for transport. Greed should never be rewarded whether it’s tram drivers wages or politicians. Usually it’s the workers being abused but most definitely in this case it is the other way round. The employees brought this upon themselves.
It was inevitable that this would be the result. Bad union strategy from day one.
Can I ask one question, if this operation was state owned and operated would this strike go on like it currently is?
No, the government would have caved in and given them a 30% pay rise after 2 strikes.
Yup, Siptu have been trying to get the government involved from the start as they are far more susceptible to political pressure and lobbying than a private company.
Conriel that’s exactly the reason we need it run by a private company. Unions already have us over a barrel for enough things.
No because they would have pressured the embarrassingly poor management in our state-run transport companie. who would have given in, then poor mouthed to the government about how they need a ticket price increase to save the companies.
6 months or a year later in, the company tries to bring in any improvements the same SIPTU/NBRU traitors will jump in again to further strangle the company.
Geoff, to put it another way, the Govt is a soft touch employer., easily pushed arount by trade unions.
That is why the private sector can deliver better value for taxpayers money.
It’s time for this batch of luas drivers to go, they brought this on themselves. You can’t defend the indefensible it’s just pure greed through and through and nothing to do with working conditions. They were offered 18% which is insane anyway I’ve no idea the mind set for any luas driver on the picket line. I’ll be waiting for the recruitment to begin so will many others easy job great pay, what’s not to like.
I would not fancy putting Luas Driver down on my cv when looking for a new job. No one will touch them. Good enough I say.
I think we should lead a counter protest!
No sympathy
Well done Transdev sense at last
Can’t help thinking that SIPTU took on an unreasonable pay demand here. The initial headline grabbing 54% was madness and SIPTU stood behind that demand. Now the drivers have turned down an offer of 18% over 5 years that the rest of us can only dream of. The drivers are being unfair on the travelling public and their co-workers ie non-driver grades in Transdev.. Think SIPTU better get their thinking caps on here to find a way out of this.
Fair play to the luas drivers
So will Jack O’Connor and the SIPTU boys be joining the Luas drivers down dole office should they lose jobs… Thought not…. What repercussions for them for SIPTU’s advice and actions?
Wally is so happy to eat food produced by capitalists, use phones, consume broadband and travel on planes….. All provided by capitalism. Wally is a pure hypocrite
Their demands are ridiculous. I’m all for everyone getting a fair share and a decent wage. But that’s not what this is about, this is about greed and the ulterior motives of SIPTU. Luas drivers are already paid a decent wage, a wage which is already at the level of the average industrial wage. This is more than a Guard, Teacher or Nurse gets after years of college and specialised training. What is the requirement to drive a Luas, a full driving licence and 7 weeks of training. So already these guys are on more money than people with a lot more qualifications, they didn’t take a pay cut during the recession like most people did, they get offered 18% over 2.5 years and reject it! How can that be described as anything other than greed?? It’s pure greed being encouraged by Siptu because they have an ulterior motives to drag this strike out as long as possible. If their demands were reasonable they’d have my support but I can’t abide that level of greed and contempt toward the general public. Their job isn’t difficult, plus we are also at a point where their job could possibly be automated and they’re not doing much to discourage that idea.
What about the Greed of private bankers and those who take part in Tax avoidance schemes
Terrible, disgusting – but what has it to do with this topic?
Are we discussing the greed of private bankers or those that take part in tax avoiding schemes?? No we’re not and neither of the groupings you mentioned have no bearing in a discussion about a Luas strike. If you can tell me how they’re connected I’ll retract my statement, if you can’t then please try to stay on topic. Unless you’re trying to say that the greed of private bankers and those engaged in tax avoidance schemes justifies the greed of the Luas workers??? Maybe you never understood the phrase “two wrongs don’t make a right”
Meelick.
And again (yawn).
Here we go again… What about the bankers….blah… What about Panama blah ..
It may shut down temporarily until they train new staff and get rid of the current idiots
Sooner rather than later
Let them do it.
Transdev will leave and new company will take over.New company will hire it’s own staff.Then transdev will take back over with new workers.
Any jobs going?
I commented on this luas dispute a few weeks ago and I said they could lose their jobs.Well here it comes, the fools didnt realise they had it so good.They have ruined everything for themselves listening to the wrong people.A secure job with nearly 40grand a year,a lot of people would be delighted with.
100% behind Transdev. Luas staff, you’ve had your doss, go back to work and be thankful for what you have.
Unmanned trains, The Docklands Light Railway in London can do it, why not Dublin?
Because that’s a closed system that doesn’t operate on the roads?
About time
Luas drivers, here’s a link you may require in the coming weeks, thanks to your bully boy union:
http://www.welfare.ie/en/Pages/List-of-Social-Welfare-Local-and-Branch-Offices-by-County.aspx
The 1916 / James Connolly comparison in favour of supporting the luas drivers is highly flawed
Connolly’s actions were condemned by most for exactly the same reasons – the made life measurably tougher for regular citizens trying to go about their business despite already facing hardships. It is only when martyred that public opinion swayed.
So the greedy drivers can piss off they’ll get no sympathy or support from my unless it’s a case that transdev starts executing striking drivers
My God! What a bunch of anti-worker, anti-union sentiment being expressed against a group of organised workers who are trying to better their working conditions. Do these naysayers not realise that by their negativity they are supporting the Luas management and bosses elsewhere. We should be fully supportive of any and all groups of workers who are prepared to take a stand and fight for better pay and working conditions. If it was not for a group of women laundry workers, some decades ago, striking for paid holidays none of us would today be enjoying a legal entitlement to paid annual leave. Don’t be begrudging what the Luas drivers have but instead support them and encourage others to join a Trade Union and better their conditions too.
If nurses or Gardaí went on strike tomorrow for better conditions, I would fully support them as they are rightfully deserved. What I won’t support is a money-grab by a group of workers who are already extremely well paid for a job which requires no previous qualifications and takes simply 6 weeks to learn.
There was an article yesterday about Tesco workers striking, the vast majority totally support them.
The issue is that the travelling commuters are workers too!
yes, exactly. Tesco workers deserve it. Gardaí and nurses definitely deserve it, disgrace what they earn.. But this shower… don’t deserve a cent
What really gets my back up, is that these strikes by the Luas workers,a nod their demands, can be used by the real anti-worker types to justify draconian measures to ensure that this doesn’t happen again.
The Luas drivers are handing the ibec types a massive stick to beat actual workers with.
What’s wrong with their working conditions? Could you tell us please?
Oh, please stop with comparisons to a hundred years ago, we have moved on thanks the the unions – but there’s a line and they crossed it.
The worst of it is that their own union put them in this position, at best by ill-advising them, at worst by using them as pawns in the larger attempted money-grab across the transport sector.
Exactly Colm.
And what is the the cornerstone of the Tesco dispute, the use of yellow pack contracts brought in a few years ago, to actually lower and hammer conditions of people working for them.
The pay deal that was put to the Luas workers involved bringing in exactly this sort of yellow pack contracts for new starts. The existing drivers refused to accept a pay deal now, in exchange for poorer conditions for new starts.
No, the newer staff are already on lower pay courtesy of the same staff and union agreeing to this in 2010, see my post above.
Unions are the worst inventions especially in Ireland. They take your money every week or month and never give you even half a wage when they tell you to strike, useless bunch building their own nests.they have the Luas staff all fired up.
Nationalise, give all drivers a basic living wage of 60,000 euro. The fares would not have to increase if we just introduce free travel for all people earning less than 100,000 euro. Problem solved, simples.
Then watch as the Luas quickly disintegrates into another overpriced, overstaffed and inefficient mess of a transport network like the rest of the state-managed transport systems.
Jason I’m pretty sure he’s being a sarcastic arseh*le
Leo, there’s an element around these parts that are actually proposing this. You sounded like one of them lol.
The capitalists own the printing machines. It is time to create a new form of currency that would benefit the working classes.
wat happens if half staff report for work on strike day. will others stop dem from going in as its well known alot ar having 2nd thoughts .
Are some of them having second thoughts? This action by Transdev will split the camp I would imagine – take the offer or take the dole.
Yea Wally, i’d say you should probably try starting up the USSR again, if you want to live in a system that doesn’t reward education go ahead, driving a luas is not a skilled job they are providing a service to the public that doesn’t mean they should be on doctors wages. If your not getting paid enough go get educated and seek better pay, we have the ability to do that, driving a tram should probably be automated anyway. Nurses also get paid well enough true they may be overworked but who isn’t. I would love to see those stats where the working class are paid less and less the minimum wage has increased and most of the workers you refer to are not on that, “big corporations” are necessary and natural if your better than your competitors you grow enough said
I’d work for there wages they are getting now..handy number I work 40 hours a week of hard labour and would be lucky to get there wages and there moaning about sitting with a lever in there hand all day
If LUAS staff are not happy with their pay and conditions, then they are free to leave and secure employment elsewhere.
I posted the link to show how fantastic the pa and conditions are – didn’t think it need explanation!!
Sorry Deirdre, when I opened the link it didn’t link to the t&c’s.
Sack them and move on
Yeeeeesssss!
They are bloody right stand up for yourselves and get a decent wage pity the mouth pieces in this comments page were not as vocal about the bunch of wasters in leinster house
Have you ever seen the control panel of a Luas? Honestly I’ve seen some cars that are more complex.
It’s a job that requires no previous qualifications and a 6 week training course yet these drivers are demanding wages of up to €55,000. That’s just purely ludicrous money.
Jimmy,
They already have a very decent wage!
You think that Luas drivers are underpaid?
They get now €42,247 + bonuses + overtime
Hardly sweat shop slaves !!
After 10 years, they want €64,993 + bonuses + free GP care + double maternity leave + annual leave 27 days.
Pure capitalism, exploiting the workers, ie, Luas commuters. The drivers want to put their hands into the pockets of the workers.
aye exactly. its p*ss easy to drive one of these. At this stage they should be told to get back to work or they will be fired.. And unions should be disbanded in this country. Absolute joke. All support for transdev and my fellow commuters
1) the WRC proposals they rejected involved a pay CUT for new entrants, and yellow pack contracts, eg longer hours, 14 year payscale instead of 10. Existing staff refused to sell out future workers for a pay rise now.
2) That 55k is at the top of their pay scale after a decades service with the company.
3) Is that really that unreasonable when one looks at the cost of getting a home in Dublin, of supporting a family, of hopefully providing 3rd level education for your kids etc.
4) Will a loss for these workers put a single penny more, in any other workers pocket in the country? No in fact it just means more profits going abroad to shareholders overseas.
This article is about luas workers demanding unrealistic pay demands not about the wasters in Leinster house
“1) the WRC proposals they rejected involved a pay CUT for new entrants, and yellow pack contracts, eg longer hours, 14 year payscale instead of 10. Existing staff refused to sell out future workers for a pay rise now.”
They sold them out in 2010, they are selling them out again by demanding that the new recruits work all the unsocial hours – you can’t dictate where you want your equality.
“2) That 55k is at the top of their pay scale after a decades service with the company.”
And they can leave if they are not happy.
“3) Is that really that unreasonable when one looks at the cost of getting a home in Dublin, of supporting a family, of hopefully providing 3rd level education for your kids etc.”
How does this work exactly – do we reduce the pay of a worker if he/she decides not to get married and/or have children?
What if two LUAS workers get married – is 110k per annum a low income to you?
Or should all LUAS drivers spouses have the luxury of not working? Should we pay for that?
You do realise that there is a grant for those who can’t pay the fees don’t you?
“4) Will a loss for these workers put a single penny more, in any other workers pocket in the country? No in fact it just means more profits going abroad to shareholders overseas.”
yes it will, because when the contract is up in 2019, any new company will factor in the higher costs of wages and this comes directly out of the taxpayers purse.
My friend Patlyndo,
““2) That 55k is at the top of their pay scale after a decades service with the company.””
After a decade of service, are they so much better at tram driving they need a top pay scale of 55k?
A driver with ten years service is still doing the same job as a driver with 10 weeks service!
Indeed Buster. What a great point, and one that I completely missed!!
What i did address though was the comments that pertained to a “working man who wants to raise a family, buy a house and have his kids educated in college” – I asked if we should reduce the pay of those workers who never married or had kids!
But yes Buster, they do the same job from 10 weeks to 10 years and beyond.
Excellent point.
That goes the same for any job, almost every job out there has service increments.
I have my c.v ready to go.
Tom Martin Matt… To slow. You should have been watching the transdev website a few weeks back , they were open for applications for a number of different grades including drivers.
I think the company are dead right to place them on protective notice they are greed driven and should’ve sacked and let them go on the dole and then they might appreciate their salary if they ever find an employer stupid enough tohirean ex Luas worker
Who needs the Luas anyway there is enough transport options already bus company staff are watching and waiting to pounce if Luas workers get increase so obviously transdev have been advised not to give in
This has nothing to do with the Government, it’s a dispute between a private company and their employees, the WRC is the recognised body and this has been exhausted.
This is a deadlock – the government are right to stay well out of it.
It’s who blinks first.
Here’s a novel idea. When one wants a pay increase much higher than the current inflation rate, work harder and get extra qualifications for a promotion OR go find a better paid job! Or is that too radical?
Striking on Easter Sunday proved to me the absolute selfishness in their demands, hopefully after this mess were left with Luas drivers appreciative of their job
Well, tough luck for the greedy ducks
About time. Sooner the idle leeches are fired the better. €60k per year for pressing the stop and go buttons on a team…. Who are they kidding? Literally you could train a chimp to do that… It better still a €100 smartphone could run a 99c app to drive one.
if as it says on paper today is true .its time for those who want to keep there jobs to stand up to these two who want to bring transport back to d union run old days
In a word…..goody!
I am just wondering what SIPTU is going to do when all drivers will get fire! Are you going to support them financially ? Easy to fight by someone else hands when outcome is not effecting SIPTU ! LUAS drivers stop being greedy! Get back to work once you still have it.
Ryanair has a policy to hire non-union affiliated employees. Why can’t Transdev do the same?
As a suggestion, why not offer Ryanair to take over the Luas contract? They wouldn’t be loss-making like Transdev is.
What legal stance have the Luas worker who turned down a generous offer agreed at the WRC. This thing could escalate into court cases where the workers are fighting for the very livelihoods. And the judge will probably say that the WRC an independent body, probably the most impartial in the land, awarded this amount, and what level of increased competance would the judge have to overrule this.
Sounds like a massive legal mess could ensue with a lot of losers all around.
The whole system will be automated in not too distant future. Strikes replaced with service packs!
This is not going to end well at all.
we need a Roddy Doyle 2 men drinking pints episode for this carry-on. RODDY WHERE ARE YOU
I would love to see luas closed down and all members of staff let go and NOT to be ever recruited in any form of transportation, p45 for the lot of them
Good. After the intimidation tactics employed by SIPTU they deserve to get nothing. How much should you be payed to drive a tram anyway? I’m a secondary teacher starting out and I’m on lower than the average Luas driver. Why don’t I just bin my degree and drive a tram. Transdev are dead right.
With a bit of luck
I’ll gladly sit on a luas and push a button!!
Patlyno buster, patlyndo, everyone else but especially patlyndo, can I ask you 1 simple question?
What is wrong with you?? The LUAS Dispute has nothing to do with you. The LUAS Workers are probably not even know to you. Why do you begrudge them so much? Is your own life so sad and empty that you spend your entire time in front of a screen commenting and begrudging
and feel like you are actually contributing to society??
You know what they say about opinions being like A-Holes. Yes everyone has one. But nobody cares. So open a window, go for a walk. Get some fresh air. Your life will be so much fuller and you’ll feel all the better for it.
Now go enjoy. Death awaits you. Make the most of it and butt out of things that don’t concern you.
lazyexcuse,
The dispute does concern me, as I am a commuting worker!
Its all a matter of context, being played €50 to drive a car down the road might seem like a great deal until you realise that your doing it so that your boss can get €50,000.
Then you might want a bigger piece of the pie. That is what the Luas drivers are asking for here, they see the amount of money that gets brought in by their work. They think that this should increase the value of their work… Don’t you?
“Then you might want a bigger piece of the pie. That is what the Luas drivers are asking for here, they see the amount of money that gets brought in by their work. They think that this should increase the value of their work… Don’t you?”
No, if we apply that logic then when LUAS passenger numbers were down then would they have agreed to a smaller piece of the pie, paycuts, layoffs, more hours?
I didn’t think so.
The boss may get 50,000, but he’s taken the risk, he’s invested his time. his money, he pays the wages, taxes, insurance, fuel and all the other expenditure associated, he takes the losses as well as the profits.
The car driver – drives the car. That’s where his value is.
It’s immaterial whether you agree or disagree with the dispute, it simply paves the way for too many other workers in this country in the future, making everyone very vulnerable in their work and pay conditions.
It doesn’t – you see, your logic is only applicable if the drivers were on bad pay and were working in bad conditions, they’re not and even now, they are still being offered a deal, no erosion in pay, no erosion in conditions.
Siptu don’t support them either!
all transdev need to do is sack everybody on there payrole. hire the roma gypsies on a min wage e9.15 ph on a fixed two month contract. refuse all talks with ANY trade union. sorted.
I’m sorry to say this, but i have no sympathy for these people.
Put them all on the dole and watch them botch about wage levels then..
Sack them all!
The greatest shame in this dispute is that a decent union recognition employer such as Transdev and their SIPTU employees are unable to seek 3rd party mediation in this dispute.
No striking union worker wants to be on ‘strike wages’ as much as any inconvenienced passenger wants to put up with unavailable service but where is the Govt. mediation in this dispute?
…Or are we willing to ‘let the chips fall’ according to the new neo liberalist/global economy dictates as per Herr Aaron McKenna and Culligan and Co. and continue with to ‘the race to to the bottom’ of employee rights and conditions of employment?
Er… what do you mean? They’ve been to the LRC on numerous occasions. Unless you mean ministerial intervention?
I don’t really understand why people are bashing the Luas Drivers. I congratulate any set of workers coming together and fighting to better their terms and conditions. Pity there were not more workers like them. Why isn’t their outrage at bankers having their private debts transferred onto taxpayers???
Meelick
“Why isn’t their outrage at bankers having their private debts transferred onto taxpayers???”
errrrr….. There is outrage!, and “Bankers” ARE being pursued through the courts – do you ever read the news?
I guess that’ll be looking for new drivers. How do I apply?
have your say