Haha!!!

seriously though. I’m a practicing Catholic but I more than likely won’t be attending this, in protest of the Church’s handling of abuse.

Attending this is akin to believing in a fairy king and hocus pocus. I cannot understand how any rational adult would be devout towards any Peter Pan type organisation like this and be serious about it. You do realise that Jack and the beanstalk was just a story too don’t you? There are no such things as magic beans!!

Being totally dismissive and derogatory about people’s beliefs is unhelpful, and shows an utter failure to appreciate humanity’s need for a spiritual aspect to life.
Recommend you watch this short, erudite and entertaining video on the subject:
http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/en/alain_de_botton_atheism_2_0.html

Jim, “humanities need for a spiritual aspect”? The word humanity implies all human beings. May I put it to you that you are also being; how did you put it? “dismissive”?. I, as a human being can categorically tell you that I have zero need for a “spiritual aspect”. Do you think I am alone here?

It’s been well established that people who believe in religion or have a similar spiritual aspect to their lives tend to be happier, less prone to depression and live longer. Your conviction that you are “right” about the ultimate truth of the universe is frankly irrelevant (as is mine; I too am athiest). Whether we like it are not, humans did not evolve to behave entirely rationally 100% of the time, and we should embrace our nature, if not in ourselves, at the very least in others

Jim, although you makes some good points, none of them address my comment. I have absolutely no need or want for spirituality in my life. I am not alone in this.

Perhaps you feel that you don’t, but just don’t be so disrepsectful to others who might…

So Jim if that’s the case , i will be offended if you say anything offensive about the Easter Bunny , Jack Frost , Santa Claus or anybody else that we are led to believe is true without a shred of evidence . Its unfair of people with beliefs to expect rational adults to believe and have respect for something that doesn’t exist as far as they are concerned . The last time i likened the whole thing to Santa clause . I was told ” Santa doesnt exist , sure how can a man get around the world in one night and deliver all those presents ” but the same person then proceeded to tell me that a guy built everything in 6 days and we all came from Adam and Eve … Go figure

Hospital beds rabble rabble rabble

Symbolic cannibalism.

Calm down. Just asking…

Actually Catholics are supposed to believe it’s not symbolic but the literal body and blood of Christ. So can vegetarians take catholic communion?

Eeeyoooo. Think I’ll stick to sausage. Pass the priest…

Sorry – pepper. Oops…

Its a holy Frisbee.

Ah. So are the holes in the other side?

Dads are great craic…

If there’s money it, they’ll do anything…

Sean, as a secularist I can take a lot of criticism but comparing me to a Sunday Independent journalist is just beyond the pale. No need for that at all!

Your confusing it with close encounters of the third kind. Similar film

His take on the 10 commandments is one of my favorite

His take on almost anything is my favorite.

There is a huge difference between the catholic church & God. The pope is just a CEO of a huge multi national that sells fear & holds huge treasures & property when people are starving everywhere & don’t get me started on contraception, collusion & homophobia.

Absolutely incorrect, The Catholic Church and belief in a higher power are completely separate, Belief in the church is belief in church doctrine, for example Jesus, the Papacy and the Church Hierarchy. I am open to the idea of a higher power but completely reject the claims of people regarding a higher power eg. the Bible, the Quran, dianetics, Torah… The Catholic Church does not have a monopoly on belief in a higher power which it always claims, I believe it is a corrupt, morally bankrupt, hypocritical organisation that does not even follow its own beliefs- eg. Wealth (the Pope even has a crown!) and creating laws that is not contained in the bible but made to secure the power of the hearts and minds of people.

My mother died recently we had her cremated in a small ceremony with no bells, trinkets or false promises and there was certainly no need for a representative of a church that has persecuted so many throughout history. There might be some people who insult the church but repent to god, to that I say god and church are 2 separate thing and should not be confused. I believe in neither.

Confusing religion with deity Melissa. Understandable.

Like the Carlin ite, both my parents had secular funerals. At one we even got a local cleric to officiate. He admitted to being agnostic. The service was held in a beautiful C13th chapel. He played Tom Waits “The Piano has been Drinking” (family favourite). Once we found some matches, there was a cremation…

“By insulting the church you are also insulting every person who has faith.”
I have faith Melissa, yet I don’t feel one bit insulted. Go Figure.

The church as an organization dint need people to insult them , they have done a really good job on their own . The faith is different to the manufactured organization , which is a money making machine and no different to any other cult . Getting on your knees and praying to your god has absolutely nothing to do with the church or the organisation or the men that work in it or indeed the corruption that runs through it like a disease .

The Government won’t get a chance, all money will all be in diplomatic cases en route to the Vatican. The Irish tax payer will have to foot the bill as usual and the pope will pray for us.

Well said, I couldn’t agree more!
(I am firm atheist)

Yawn… Pandering is that what you mean? So anybody that has an opinion other than the status quo is deemed to have a lack of respect for Tom Foolery? Look, if people want to believe in a divinity, that’s fine by me but I will have my say. This is an open forum for personal views and discussion. You don’t like my views, again, fine by me.. A lack of maturity was mentioned by someone else but I question this. As children we are led to believe a Santa Clause exists. This is perfectly acceptable to me, kids are kids and a lack of maturity is fun. When we continue to believe in fiction as adults, i seriously question the level of maturity that person exhibits.

Excellent comment Brian. But you make no mention of the catholic church’s (at best) condescending attitude towards atheists, agnostics and other faiths. And what of their past deeds? where heretics were subject to horrific torture and death. There a 2 billion catholics in the world for a reason, and that reason (in my opinion) is not through spiritual enlightenment, but through fear, coercion and the indoctrination of under-developed minds.

Here here, well said

David having an opinion other than the status quo does not show a lack of respect for the other persons belief or position. Having diverse points of view is and debating them is how we grow and evolve as humans and as a society. There is a difference however between rational argument and cheap ridicule and that is what I am arguing against. It’s easy to to throw cheap shots and snide remarks and adopt a gutter press attitude towards someone else’s position and I should say that I am not referring to you specifically I am talking in general. As you say this is an open discussion and I don’t agree with you but at the same time I’m not going to revert to when I was 10 years old and make what I used to think were smart remarks but were in fact stupid comments from an immature child. I like you question at times how some people can believe in certain values and beliefs and I might think that they are far removed from reality but I din’t feel the need to to go around insulting them or deriding their faith.

As far as I’m concerned if someone is not bothering me, is not harming me or anyone else and isn’t trying to convert me to their way of thinking then I live and let live. I went past the Church this morning but didn’t feel the need to walk up the aisle and laugh at all the congregation because the have a different set of values to me. When my parents say the Angeles I don’t jump up and down and “question the level of maturity” that they have. If I did, I would have to question the level of maturity of all of my neighbours and friends to some extent which by your argument (Santa Claus) would mean that they showed a distinct lack of maturity and I would be somehow much more mature and intelligent than they are. Seeing as I really don’t care what they believe in and respect their point of view I would hope that I do not display the narcissistic, egotism that would go hand in hand with this point of view.

If you don’t like the Church then that’s fine, I’m no great fan of it myself but if you feel the need to challenge it at least come up with a valid argument against it. I have assignments to hand in over the next 5 months for college and if I adopted the attitudes and debating style of some of the commentators that regularly rile against religious faiths in these forums I’d be kicked out in no time. By all means everyone should have their say however I think you will find that people turn off very quickly when they hear illogical comments from either end of the religious spectrum.

@ Brian, by referring to itself as ” the one true church” the catholic church is guilty of “a lack of respect for the other persons belief or position” So what’s good for the goose….

Noddy you have some very valid points and history would certainly back them up. Perhaps a good example would be how Protestant missionaries went to Tahiti and virtually wiped out the indigenous religious beliefs. Africa was inundated with Christians trying to save their souls and what can be said about the Crusades, the Inquisition, Copernicus and Galileo that hasn’t already been said. I would certainly share your view that the church as an institution has forgotten that the Church is not a bunch of priests and nuns, big buildings and ceremony. The Church is the people who pray and believe in their faith and spirituality. There does seem to be a movement towards this especially with the younger congregation and clergy who are coming back more to the ideals of Christianity and less to what is dictated from the Vatican. If this works for people and helps them with their everyday lives then I think that is a good thing.

As for their condescending attitude that you mention I have certainly come across that in the past but I find that if you know a little bit about the bible and the history of the Church that soon puts people in their place. I suggest the Dark Bible website http://www.nobeliefs.com/DarkBible/DarkBibleContents.htm it soon puts people on the back foot. There is also the argument that as an agnostic I am covering all my bases upon my earthly demise. If there is no God then I lose nothing ( especially long hours kneeling down and praying for forgiveness), if there is a God then I’m covered for all religions as I’m not tied down to one faith.

Brian & Noddy
Great comments. I am atheist and non catholic and find some comments on this website sneering, snide and disrespectful too. One thing that does bother me though is the extent that certain christian faiths, particularly Catholic and most particularly in this country, adopt a kind of missionary campaign to ‘save’ ALL our souls. I don’t want a religious influence in the enactment of our laws. I don’t want to be forced by rule of law to die in misery in some Dickensian nursing home or state hospital to satisfy the indulgences of the faithful. I want the legislation on divorce, abortion, gay rights etc. to be debated in a objective manner and not be influenced by the churches or the religious leanings of judges, doctors or politicians. I would like that legislation passed by the government to be in the interest of the private citizen and not senior clerics who covered up clerical child sex abuse. I could go on and on.
I find most religious believers to be honest decent people who most certainly don’t deserve to have their beliefs beset upon in the manner of which we speak and I detest the lack of respect and these sneering jibes.
I would like that respect to be returned though. I have beliefs too and many others believe likewise, I believe in the separation of church and state and the secularization of society in a way that laws and enactments are made in consideration of moral, ethical and cultural values and not based on the ‘strange’ beliefs of one religion or another, or the pronouncements of a hierarchy.

I totally agree with you John. We had divorce in Ireland before the setting up of the State only to have it foisted upon us by the Church. In an ideal world the State would not be bound or follow the values of one religion or faith but would treat all believers and non-believers with equal value. The State should serve the person as a citizen regardless of creed and attach no particular set of religious values to legislation. What goes on between a person and their God should be a individual interaction and should not be imposed on others.

Drink!

Did the priest instruct people on how condoms can prevent the spread of aids?

You may be surprised to learn that not all catholic missionaries are anti-condoms. There are much wider and complicated issues surrounding HIV in Africa than what the church says about condoms.

@Joe: I can imagine that someone dying in hospice in Kampala or Nairobi needs love and care and not a lecture on morality; regardless of the ideology the morality comes from.

@Lindsay Ratzingers policy on condoms is not helpful to the HIV situation in Africa don’t you agree? I never once suggested that it was the sole cause of this terrible situation.

@Condulmer So do I.

Condulmer & Lindsay
There is not much in what you say that I disagree with. As I said above I am not a non catholic and an atheist. I am a non catholic by design and an atheist by nature – I just find it impossible to be spiritual. I try – I find religion very interesting and adopt the the principals of some beliefs into my life – but I just can’t get over the final hurdle of believing, There are some religious people that I envy, am amazed at and admire.
I have engaged with people like yourselves on these forums and asked why you cling to a religion that, to my mind has betrayed you, has lied in your faces and caused so much despair but never had an answer that I could swallow. I only could conclude that as a natural non believer I will never understand your answers and you will never understand my questions.
The conclusion I draw from this is that we must above all get along together. All I ask is please don’t preach to me, judge me, or try to influence matters in which I try to protect my rights where they may jar with your beliefs.

@John Murphy: Your the kind of guy I’d love to spend an evening drinking with! (provided u drink.) I suppose I have faith, I just do, not even all the crap of recent times has changed that. It has disgusted me and made me think long and hard, but it hasn’t changed my catholic faith. I’m not brainwashed, I can guarantee you I’m not. I don’t care if the world and its mother think I’m immature or….whatever! I often notice that people who argue against religion here do so in a very negative way. Maybe they are right, I don’t know where people come from in this. I don’t want anyone to force themselves into my way of thinking. I’m just very happy with my lot, and faith has something to do with. Have a good week!

@Condulmer
Have a nice glass of Merlot sitting beside me as I type!
I certainly don’t think anyone like yourself is immature, or brainwashed for that matter. As an old guy once told me if two people are the same, or agree all the time, one is not needed. Best of luck to you and have a good week too!

John and Joe, I am not a practicing Catholic, not a Christian, not a believer of the Bible, don’t believe in the Body of Christ, don’t believe that ‘God’ should be referred to as ‘Him’ and am certainly not a follower of the church. I am only referring to what I have seen during visits to South Africa and Mozambique, where I have come across quite forward-thinking and modern Catholic missionaries (Kevin Dowling at Tapologo hospice for example). I agree that the Pope’s current policies are wrong, but it’s important to note that there are many, many missionaries who agree with us.

This is the first time I’ve been compelled to enter into a conversation with total strangers online, so please be gentle!

Lindsay
I’m glad that you and Condulmer speak out for yourselves and what you believe in. I’m feeling that people like yourselves are going to be beaten back by insults and snide remarks for something you had no hand act or part in – that doesn’t help anyone. If you want to kill the beast chop at the head – that’s the only way things will change and from what I gather by talking to people respectfully that’s what believers and non believers want.
Do we blame every citizen of this country who voted for politicians that sold us out? Do we blame every practicing catholic for the corruption of the hierarchy? If we do that we’re at nothing and nothing gets fixed.
I make no bones about it I detest certain elements in the Roman Church, but there is a ‘baby and bathwater’ side to all of this that gets lost in the rhetoric.

While I can agree with you that ridiculing someone’s personal faith is wrong, However, I also believe that people have every right ask questions of anyone who lends moral and financial support to a church which has shown itself to be corrupt and complicit in criminal acts across the globe.

Please back up your statements reffering to case and state. Otherwise withdraw your slander.

Clearly not… if you take some cases in front of the dpp at the moment….

Controversial…

funny rath… will you do me a favour… pop out and find a priest without a degree in philosophy and included In which is logic, you wont find one… it is mandatory in the training….. and in fact.. I think there are a few philosophical talks alright… Rathminer, I hold a degree in Philosophy, a degree in Economics, a masters degree in telecommunications and a PhD in Networks and operating systems and im a Catholic. I dont believe I am a lower form of humanity.. in fact I am quite intellegent. Let us not forget then the great priests who were also scientists, people like Nicholas Callen, who invented the induction coil which is the backbone of all electronics. think, my friend, before you speak.

Things were very different in the 1800s. Science has negated the innate human need to invent imaginary friends as explanations for mystery. I know that there will come a day when the remaining religious people in the world will grow out of it, but I just wish it would come sooner. I’m sure you’re a very accomplished person, but I would point out that degrees and other qualifications are not standalone signs of intelligence.