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Dublin: 12 °C Saturday 25 May, 2013

Northern Ireland’s ban on gay and unmarried adoption overturned

A Belfast judge today rejected a 1987 adoption law that restricted adoption to married couples and single adults.

Image: Kristina Postnikova via Shutterstock

UNMARRIED AND SAME-SEX couples in Northern Ireland should be allowed to adopt children, a Belfast judge ruled today rejecting a 1987 adoption law that discriminates against both groups.

Gay rights activists praised the ruling in favour of a lawsuit pursued by the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission. But Health Minister Edwin Poots, an evangelical Protestant opposed to gay partnerships, said the government would appeal.

“It is my intention to urgently appeal this judgment and I am taking this action with a heavy heart,” said Poots, who called the ruling against the best interests of children.

Belfast High Court Justice Seamus Treacy ruled the law clearly violated European human rights laws on privacy and discrimination.

Other parts of the United Kingdom already permit gay and unmarried heterosexual couples to adopt children. But Northern Ireland’s law restricts applicants to married couples and single adults, including people who are gay.

Northern Ireland’s chief commissioner for human rights, Michael O’Flaherty, said the successful lawsuit “sought to protect the best interests of the child. Given the high numbers of children in care, who need a family in Northern Ireland, the importance of this case in widening the pool of prospective parents cannot be overstated.”

More than 2,500 children in Northern Ireland are in state care awaiting adoption.

John O’Doherty, director of a Northern Ireland gay rights group called the Rainbow Project, denounced the government plans to appeal the judgment as “wasting public money on a fool’s errand.”

He accused Poots of “allowing his personal prejudices to influence his public responsibilities.”

Photos: Protests at Marie Stopes Belfast clinic >

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Comments (152 Comments)

  • Amy and Mary would make a lovely couple

    Reply
  • The only people who should be raising kids on this island are those who love and treasure children.
    The best place for a child to be raised is not always with the biological parent.
    Most people can make a child but not every one can be a good parent.

    Reply
    • Mary with comments like yours it’s a sad day for society. What if it was your son or daughter? You hold them feed them hear their first words see their first steps you watch them grow. Then they come home one day and tell you they are gay. What do you do disown them? Never talk to them again? If you did that in my eyes it would think you a terrible parent. I’d rather see a child loved and cared for by a gay couple than discriminated against for something they do not choose.

      Reply
  • Happy days for the LGBT community on this island. They should have the same rights as us. No peer reviewed research against it, only for it. (See the work of Dr. Ryan Lamb, Cambridge Uni). This island is going in the right direction towards being truly Republican. Time for the Republic to follow the lead.

    Reply
  • Will this create a precedent? A child having a loving caring home no matter what the situation is in the child’s best interest rather than them being kept in care. There are always arguements that a child would be bullied for having two parents of the same sex but if it became the norm and children were brought up with it there would be very little problems. Good luck to the couple and I hope they finally get their little family.

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    • You hit the bullseye – education instead of ignorance, acceptance instead of avoidance, normalising instead of demonising. That would solve a lot of problems.

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    • Niall 18/10/12 #

      No matter how we try to educate and inform over the coming years, the simple indisputable fact of the matter is kids are kids and the child of a gay couple is going to get seven shades of shit kicked out of him in school. And that’s just the physical side. Sad, but true.

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    • Niall, then maybe straight people need to bring their kids up better and with more respect for others.

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    • Niall, kids get picked on for having glasses, for having ginger hair, for being poor, for being rich, for being Polish, for being from another street/town/county, for not having the right runners, for not being good at hurling, for being good at their schoolwork, for being bad of their schoolwork, for having same-sex parents, for having one parent, for being adopted, for living with their grandparents, for having strict parents……. You get the idea.

      Bullies look for someone who is different. That is all.

      Reply
    • Aoife 18/10/12 #

      Niall, and a kid who’s in state care won’t be treated the same way? The playground isn’t always a pleasant place to be for kids that are ‘different’ in any way; that’s hardly a situation unique to the child of a gay couple. At least a child that’s adopted (whether by a gay or straight couple) is more likely to have a stable home and the support structures that entails than a kid in foster care.

      Reply
    • Aoife 18/10/12 #

      I hadn’t seen Donncha’s reply when I wrote mine, but he’s right. It’s hardly unique for kids to be bullied.

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    • Niall 18/10/12 #

      Guys none of ye are wrong, I know kids get bullied for this and that no matter where or what. All I’m saying is of all the things to target a vulnerable kid about this one will probably be the one that doesn’t go away. I did say its sad and we can educate all we like, I’m all for gay marriage and rights but tell that to a 12 year old in his second bloody nose of the week in September. Red thumb me all ye like but if the kids could choose??

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    • Niall, its attitudes like your’s that make some children think its alright to be a homophobic bully.
      You seem to be brimming with compassion for the “12 year old in[sic] his second bloody nose of the week in September”, who’s school, in this litigious age, for some reason allowed one of their students to be physically assaulted twice in one week without any action.
      Where’s the compassion for the 12 year old boy who’s just come out to himself? What you’re saying to him is that when he grows up, he shouldn’t be allowed to start a family like everyone else because “I know kids get bullied for this and that no matter where or what”, in other words that there is something wrong with him and because of this he and everyone he loves will always be hated, that it doesn’t and never will get better, what kind of damage do you think that does? You have to imagine that, we in the LGBT community don’t, most of us grew up with that and only in the last few years had a few gleaming beams of hope that things will get better.
      What this state needs is a concerted effort to tackle the homophobic in our school, so that no matter weather a child is gay, or a member of their family is gay, that they will be safe and valued in their school.
      What we don’t need is more of the ‘there will always be bullying, so don’t even try to fix’ attitude and victim blaming that seems to crop up when ever this subject is discussed.

      Reply
    • News flash.
      Kids aren’t born homophobic. They learn it, so how about we stop inadvertently teaching it by treating homosexual and transgender people as though their differences are somehow bad?

      Like Michael said above, educate, normalise, lead by example. It’s the only way. And that goes for stomping out bullying too.

      Reply
    • Respect Donnacha!

      Reply
  • That’ll get the bigots going!

    Reply
  • Hurray, common sense wins.

    Reply
  • Edwin “stuck in the 1880s” poots

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    • Edwin “young earth creationist and an opponent of the theory of evolution” Poots. Seriously. According to his own bio on his own website!!
      He obviously decided long ago that empathy & reason weren’t for him…

      Reply
  • It boggles the mind that someone would try to block something that has no effect on them (except the bigotted ideals) or others.

    Reply
  • Could a single gay person adopt a child? Genuine question.

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    • Yes.

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    • Yes a single gay person can adopt a child but his/her partner would not have any legal rights to that child if they were in a relationship and if the parent who adopted died the state could take the child into care and not leave the child in the care of the other parent.and i think the law ( i can be corrected on this) that if a gay couple enter a civil partnership in the republic they are instantly banned from adopting because they are no longer single and not married.

      Reply
    • In that case David the Childrens Referendum would seem to improve that situation somewhat. If passed, the welfare of the child must be paramount in matters of custody etc. Surely the welfare of the child would be best served by remaining with the surviving parent in a loving family unit.

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    • to be honest i haven’t read much into the childrens referendum, the only thing i heard about it is that children of married parents can be adopted instead of being left in the foster system until they are 18. i dont think the referendum will have any benefit to gay couples as there will still be no legal rights for gay parents. It will still be the law that only 1 parent can be legally the childs parent. if gay people we’re given the right of civil marriage all this problems would disappear. while it totally would be in the childs best interest to stay with the surviving parent that parent still has no legal right to that child. it is even the case for example if the adopted or biological parent was away lets say and the child had an accident the non-biological or non adoptive parent would have no right to give consent for a medical procedure for that child the other parent isnt considered family.

      Reply
    • I see what you’re saying there. But arguably if the referendum is passed (which seems likely) then the welfare of the child of a gay person would seem to be not paramount if their parents were treated differently by the law than a married couple. This would be unconstitutional. Or maybe I’m stretching things here – is there a constitutional lawyer in the house?

      Reply
    • I can’t say for sure. But I presume it would have to go to court to determine that instead of it being a legal given that the child would go to the other parent. If there was no partnership and no will the other parent might not be next of kin. A member of the dead persons family could contest custody. There would still be limbos. Children of gay couples will Prob be always treated as second class until marriage rights are given to gay couples

      Reply
    • Something interesting to bear in mind.. In a straight couple who have kids but are not married, the father has no rights to the kids. To the point where if the child needs emergency medical attention and the mother cannot be reached, the father may not give consent for the procedure. The child must be made a ward of the state.
      So if one parent adopted the child but the other cannot, they too could be faced with these sorts of difficult scenarios..

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    • In the case of unmarried straight couples the father can apply for guardianship through the courts for the child if they decide not to marry which would give him rights over those matters. Also if the father wasn’t the biological parent of the child and he wanted to adopt the child as his own the couple have the legal right to marry and adopt while a gay couple cannot. There is no legal way for a gay non biological parent and a biological parent to jointly have the same rights

      Reply
    • Shocking to imagine the scenario where a gay person adopts a child, then enters into a civil partnership and if something happens to the original adoptive parent the child could be taken into care. What a bonkers backwards country we live in.

      Reply
  • Families come in all shapes and sizes nowadays, the more people that love and care for a child the better for it, whatever their orientation. Also, young children are incredibly accepting of things, it is only when bigotry is bred into them that they will take a negative view of it

    Reply
    • Im adopted and growing up, it was just the norm! I remember people asking me ‘how does it feel to be adopted’? I never knew anything different. i was loved and I felt it even though my parents werent biologically linked to me.
      Kids rasied by gay parents are the same. They dont know any different. Good parents are good parents and bad parents are bad parents regardless of their orientation.

      Reply
    • Families always came in all shapes and sizes. We just don’t hide the quirks and differences away as much as we used to. It’s more honest which is a good thing. I think it’s funny how when people say “non-traditional family” toe an a family with homosexual parents, when there’s no reason why two gay parents can’t have traditional values and straight parents can have non-tradition values.

      Reply
  • This is fantastic news! I am very proud to have gay family and friends they have enriched my life so much. I fully support this as any person who can provide a safe,loving and happy home deseve the right to bring up a child no matter what! Unfortunately there are still some very small minded people out there but they are just either brain washed by the church or ignorant. They don’t know if their sibling,child or grandchild will come out as gay so they should be supportive of anything that doesnt infringe on a person’s human rights!

    Reply
  • Always good to see reason and compassion triumph over medieval bigotry and mysticism.

    Hopefully this will give many children currently stuck in the care system up north the chance to be rased by loving, caring parents, despite the determination of religiously motivated homophobes like Poot to deny them a good home.

    Reply
  • I am a gay man and I have 100% belief in god! I will some day have my own kids but I will also adopt god willing as there are so many children who need homes! Not a mother and a father but someone to love, raise, educate and nurture them. I do not see why I should not be allowed to give all of this to a child solely based on my sexual preference!

    Reply
  • I would be 100% atheist, no token church wedding or baptising my children because people expect you to. If a people believe in something that gives them strength, more power to them but if they use it as an excuse for everything that happens in life, good and bad, I see that as a cop out and selling themselves short

    Reply
  • Every child deserves a loving parent or parents. The parents sexuality is of no interest to the child. Typical for religious bigoted nutjobs they stand in the way of progress and happiness.

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  • Kids need to be loved and cared for. They need to be respected. We are raising adults not children. Sexuality has no bearing on this.

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  • Why not Mary? Give me details!!

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  • SeanS 19/10/12 #

    Although I don’t think people (or kids) need a god to be functioning members of society.

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  • Hi Mary please get a grip on reality. I know loads of gay parents an believe u me they r more loving and caring then straight ppl would ever be. @ Amy it’s a sad day for children??? Ur a sad day every day I’d say not married? I wonder y who wud have u? But a gay couple wud look after a child better then ye would. It’s the 21at century grow up an get wit the program. Ye 2 make me sick…

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  • @sean s well thank you Sean, maybe I did not articulate myself well enough in my comments,and I do truly wish the LGBT community the best of luck in their quest of equality .

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  • Mjhint 19/10/12 #

    WTF. Ian your a homophobe.

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  • It’s a shame the republic makes it extremely difficult for same sex couples to adopt. Notionally the HSE can’t discriminate but they put up so many obstacles that it takes the threat of litigation before they allow couples to adopt.

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  • @mjhint. Mj some of things Sean brings home from school knock me back the sex education I believe are way too advanced, my son asked me if I thought his pal was gay because of the way he was acting, and I said I don’t know Sean but some boys behave in an effeminate manner but that does not mean they are gay, but that he could be.

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  • I’d imagine most kids in care would rather a straight couple adopt them over 2 gays.

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  • yeah cos all the cases of horrific abuse I’ve heard of over the years were perpetrated by mothers and fathers so why are children automatically better off with a father and mother also a lot of the time its just the mother so why a child is nearly aalways left with the mother is another one i don’t uunderstand

    Reply
  • @ Steve Herron. Hi Steve it’s funny you should ask that question because I only had that talk with my 11yr old son today and my exact words to him were Sean if you come to me someday and tell me your gay I will love and respect you the same as I always have, the subject came up when he was talking about one of his pals who behaves in a effeminate manner.

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  • @david Jordan David I am all for gay marriage and adoption however I do wonder at the lack of any talk of god, religion spirituality, David I have three young children going to school and between baptismal Certs to communion to confirmation I am just wondering how you intend getting around these situations and David I am not a bigot or homophobic and I resent the insinuation, I happen to very good friends with a gay couple in Birmingham and they are the nicest funniest I have ever been around they own their own pub and they would not accept any homophobic or heterophobic behaviour regards Ian

    Reply
    • How would you feel if one of your kids said they were gay Ian?

      Many people live full lives without the need for a religion in their lives and on the other hand I know many gay people who regularly attend church and live very spiritual lives.

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    • Really Ian, the old ” some of my best friends are gay” line.
      There are non-denominational schools in Ireland and I’d send my children to one of those and if one of those schools was not available, and the Roman Church controlled schools refused to admit my children, I’d presue the matter thought the dept. and if they did nothing, the courts as my children have the same right to an education as the children of any heterosexual Roman Catholic couple.
      You’re really scraping the bottom of the barrel with that argument Ian, because it doesn’t seem to a problem for the commited Muslims, Jews, Protestants and Atheists in Ireland.

      Reply
    • Mjhint 19/10/12 #

      Ian obviously your catholic but how would a couple with a different religion deal with the issues you are questioning? An atheist family would deal with them in their own way. What does it really matter to you about other childrens religion or even none?

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    • SeanS 19/10/12 #

      What relevance has any talk of god, religion or spirituality? And what god’s or religion are you talking about? Zeus? Buddah? Horus? Pagan/Norse/Christian?

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    • Of the 277,000 people in Ireland who identified as atheist according to the last census are you saying they shouldn’t have children because they don’t believe in god. Believing in religion is a personal choice not a requirement to be a parent.

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  • The child asked me was his pal gay and so the conversation progressed don’t be making assumptions and mj I am not a homophobe.

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    • Mjhint 19/10/12 #

      Ian I will apologise to you in advance if I wronged you but a grown man discussing sexual orientation with an eleven year old is not healthy. An eleven year old boy would understand very little about his or anyone elses sexuality. They may understand some elements of the facts of life but thats it. The term you used ?effeminate manner? is hardly a way of telling the sexual orientation of anyone. I have met gay men that would make a straight man look like a girl. This is just stereotyping.

      Reply
  • Every Child deserves a mother and father not two mothers or two fathers.

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    • Bit what if both the mother and father were male? Or female? “Mother” and “father” are just words, not categorical definitions.

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    • So again Amy, why arent all you straight couples out there fostering and adopting? Why have you left 6000 children in care?
      Would you rather they stayed in care instead of being loved and cared for by someone who just so happens to be gay?
      One of you homophobes on this site really should answer this question.

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    • Amy, please get your facts straight. You CAN adopt AND foster as a single person.
      Please dont spout cr@p.

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    • And Amy, if single people we not allowed foster or adopt, which they are by the way, what do you suggest should happen to those kids in care?
      Should they be left there instead of being homed with loving gay people?

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    • I think Amy is saying that unmarried couples SHOULDN’T be able to adopt. Because apparently being in care is nothing compared to the horror of non heterosexual married parents? I don’t know, the logic is mystifying.

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    • Amy doest seem to want single straight people or gay people in general having kiddies anywhere near them!
      Feck it, stick them in care and leave them there to rot, never knowing what it feels like to be loved and part of a family.

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    • I think what Amy really wants is a world without dysfunctional families, without familial abuse, without stress and fear and pressure and heartache. A noble wish. But she’s a believer in the not uncommon fallacy that homosexuality somehow brings all these bad things into the world. I think the best thing for her would be to become friends with a couple of gay people and so educate herself that sexual preference has nothing to do with being “good” or “bad”, ethical or unethical. Wanting a way back to the “good old days” is problematic, because the “good old days” never existed.

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    • Nikolas, thats what everyone wants but I also want to live in a world where people dont shun gay people!
      Theres no reason that gay people cannot raise children. None at all.

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    • @ Tommy – of course not. There’s absolutely no justification for making decisions about someone’s morality, personality or fitness to be a parent based on their sexual preference. It’s as relevant as hair-colour, eye-colour or skin tone. I am very interested, however, the reasons why people like Amy and Mary think they way they do. It’s just too simple to say it’s ignorance or bigotry and leave it at that. As someone asked below, why does homosexuality threaten some people? I don’t understand it and so I am weirdly fascinated.

      Reply
    • I spy with my little eye something beginning with….AMY THE TROLL!

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    • Mjhint 19/10/12 #

      Amy Jesus had 2 fathers apparently!

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    • hbenroe 19/10/12 #

      Amy, I pity your ignorance. I had both a mother and a father, my father was 10 years older than my mother, neither of them wanted kids. But I came along, this didn’t stop them living their life’s the way the wanted.My single aunt ended up having to take care of me. She was my real mother.I lived with my aunt from about the age of two . I am living proof that Amy your theory is a load of rubbish. When my aunt passed I was lost. Both my parents passed in the last couple of years I felt nothing.when came up to sympathise with me I felt nothing. I go to my aunts gave as often as I can. And will never forget what she did for me. I saw my parents every day as the just lived at the bottom of the lane. They never seemed bothered. There are loads of people like this out there.

      Reply
  • Totally agree with you Mary !

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  • A sad day for the children.

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  • @sarah it might not matter to you Sarah however it could play a big part in the child’s life and just to set the record straight Sarah I am all for same sex marriage and adoption but I also think god should be a part of the child’s life even if you don’t believe in him.

    Reply
    • Why should god be a part of the child’s life even if you don’t believe in *him*?

      Unless you mean that you explained to the kid that some people believe in this, others believe in that, some believe in nothing at all, and that if they want to learn more thats totally up to them and you will support them?

      Because I grew up with “god” in my life, and I resent it thanks very much. I came to reject that notion of god and find my own beliefs – I would have preferred not to have wasted hours of my life with someone trying to brainwash me with that nonsense.

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    • That’s your personal choice to raise your children in a religion. You don’t get the right to dictate to everyone else how they should raise their children in your beliefs.

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    • Who is this God that you keep referring to?.

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    • And what god would that be. Is it okay by you ok my kids are raised by the god of science or would Zeus be better?

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    • What if I chose to believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster? Is that enough of a ‘god’ for you?

      Reply
  • What are gay people going to teach the adopted child about god and religion because from what I am reading none of you, have any beliefs in anything, also when someone makes a comment gay people don’t agree with the replies can be very abusive hardly the sign of a model parent.

    Reply
    • So gay people shouldn’t adopt children unless they indoctrinate the children into a religion!!! What about a straight atheist couple. Should they not be allowed adopt either?? What a ridiculous comment. What has religion for to do with this topic at all.

      Reply
    • There is a considerable differance between an abusive reply and ridiculing an opinion that is based solely on faith and thinly veiled bigotry, we are perfectly willing to engage you in a logical debate, so when you have an argument against marriage equality and equal adoption rights that is based on something more substancial then “God commands it”, we’ll talk.

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    • So model=religious. Seriously ??

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    • @Ian. Your post implies that there is proof of the existence of a God. Why else would you express concern regarding teaching children of the existence of this mythical being?. Secondly, why would you assume that gay parents would be unable to perform this task?.

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    • They’ll hopefully teach them to question those belief systems and allow the child to determine themselves what they want to believe in. Love the way you seem to be shocked that gay people normally aren’t religious. Sure with all the hate that’s spouted at them from the pulpit why the hell would they be?

      Reply
    • Ian, how many straight white males believe in Santa Clause? Please refer to peer reviewed literature in your response, thank you.

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    • @Ian why dont you ask outhouse to conduct a poll of lgbt citizens about their relationship with religion and get some facts before spouting nonsense.

      Most gay people I know have their own spirituality. Many believe in God but they dont feel any affiliation to a particular organised religion because they generally discriminate against lgbt people.

      I myself consider that I am a christian without being a member of catholicism. I am gay also. If I had a child I would introduce him or her to all religions and beliefs along with teaching science so that as they grow and learn they can discover it for themselves.

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    • @conor buggy: I did spout any nonsense Conor I was simply saying that their was very little mention of god from the LGBT community and if they are to adopt children, this is something the might have to consider, however after last night I can see that quite a few of your members do have a faith, the only thing negative I felt last night was the LGBT community are not very accepting of other peoples views.

      Reply
    • Ian when your view includes forcing people to enforce a religion on children against the parents wishes your view is disgraceful and wrong. How would feel if someone made you raise your children scientologists against your wishes for example

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    • hbenroe 19/10/12 #

      Get a life mate most people nowadays don’t believe in fairy tales

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    • Well Ian if you want to talk about Jesus, then remember that he had 2 fathers, God and Joseph.

      So if it’s good enough for Jesus, then it’s good enough for everyone else.

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    • Tommy C 20/10/12 #

      Im not gay and Im an athiest. Like my gay friends, I teach my kids to be kind to others because its the right thing to do and not because a sky fairy demands they are or theyll burn in a fire under the ground. Cop on Ian!

      Reply
  • @sean s same name as my own son no Sean I have not because I don’t really know a whole lot about them, and before you ask I don’t know a lot about the god that I believe in either but Sean I have been through some awful experiences in life and I should by all accounts be dead but I am not and I believe that god carried me through these awful times.

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    • I don’t see how god has anything to do with raising a responsible member of society, surely following basic morals and rules because its the right thing to do, taught by the parents is how to raise kids

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    • SeanS 19/10/12 #

      I don’t know myself whether there is or isn’t a god but I wouldn’t be too surprised either way, it just irks me when people blindly believe in their own specific gods and interpretations of religion over others, which is I suppose the point I was trying to make earlier. Seems to me your not really sure yourself who or what your God is, but just that he is. I have a lot more time for that opinion than I do for specific religions or gods..

      Reply
  • @david mc dermott: how many gay people believe in god or religion and try to answer the question instead of trying to evade it !!!

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    • Ian, why does a belief in God matter if you are adopting a child? What does that have to do with anything? It’s not relevant.

      Reply
    • Well, according to this articule, quite a few:

      http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2012/06/29/australia-40-percent-of-gay-couples-identify-as-christian/

      Which is rather surprising considering that mainstream Christian has always been in the vanguard of persecution against us.
      Out of curiosity Ian, do you believe all peoples’ rights are conditional on being a theist or just that their is something deeply wrong with being an atheist?

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    • Religion nothing to do with being a parent. The majority of young people in Ireland just use the church as hypocrites for big events such as communions and weddings..they are just paying lip service. It has absolutely nothing to do with providing a loving home.

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    • Ian, who cares? It’s got no relevance to parenting ability. Having religious belief or even teaching that religion does not automatically equate to a better person. I’m sure there are many abuse survivors who can attest to that.

      Beliefs do not make you a better person, your actions do. Morals are about doing what is right because it is right, religion is about doing what you are told, regardless of whether it is wrong or right.

      How about we base our judgements on facts, actions and reality, rather than our perceptions and illogical assumptions?

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    • I have no way of saying how many gay people believe in god. I personally don’t I know some who do. If I had children I wouldn’t indoctrinate my children into a religion as I believe religion is harmful but I would teach my children that there are many religions in the world and some people have beliefs but I wouldn’t raise my children in a religion. What this has to do with anything is beyond me

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  • People this is getting blown out of all proportion all I am saying is god should not be excluded from the child’s life just because some don’t believe in him, and if my child is an atheist member of the LGBT community I will love and respect him or her as I have always done, I am also heartened to hear that a lot of gay people do believe in god even though your community have been persecuted by the church but I believe in god not his salesmen and I have personally cheated death more times than I care to remember but I am 45 now and calming down a bit thank god.

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    • SeanS 19/10/12 #

      Presumably you don’t believe in Zeus, Thor, Odin, Horus, Buddah etc. Have you included those gods in your own childs life?

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    • SeanS 19/10/12 #

      Why should one god be included in a childs life over literally thousands of others?

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    • in your opinion god has an important role in a childs life so you get the right to influence your child with a religion. you do not have the right to force other people who dont share those beliefs to have to force their children into that religion. if an atheist has a child the child is brought up in a home that doesnt believe in religion. if a jewish person has a child that child is brought up jewish, same with a muslim family and buddist family. its called freedom or religion, to have one or not to have one. Other peoples choice of religion or lack thereof is none of your business. You have no right to tell people that they should raise their children with a belief in God just because you do!

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    • I think it’s more important to teach children about how different people have different beliefs, including atheism. If my kids decide to have a “faith” when they are older and understand a belief system ill support them but I won’t have one religion that i dont believe in or particularly care about forced down their throat

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  • Oh my God I don’t care ! LGBT blah blah blah whine whine whine. Just keep it to yourselves. What people do in private is their business. Just stop being so loud about it!

    Kids are better off with a father and mother but I understand it’s an ideal quite often not achievable these days.

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  • A child should be brought up by a mother and father , that’s the natural order , get over it !!

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  • @david Jordan David I rarely go to church but I do have a strong belief in god, and the ironic thing with atheists is this some of them believe in the paranormal, ufos life on other planets but yet cant believe that there could be a god.

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    • SeanS 19/10/12 #

      There are billions upon billions of planets in the galaxy, it’s almost a mathemtaical certainty that there is at least some form of intelligent life out, (whether they spend their time visting us and anally probing midwest american hillbillies is a different story though). The same can’t be said of a god.

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    • Mjhint 19/10/12 #

      Ian I am an atheist & I have 4 children that are raised christian which I dont agree with. My eldest child is 10 & her sister is 7 & they know Im atheist. It worries them because they dont understand it fully. I intend on enlightening them about my views & when they are adults if they choose a religion or none I will respect that. In my view teaching children religion is abhorrent & why dont the religious orders teach people over 16 years about their beliefs. I know the answer to this but Im not sure christians do?

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    • There are thousands of different versions of god throughout time why should people be forced into conscripting children into your version of god.

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    • That’s because atheists are of the mind that there’s most likely not a god, but are open minded enough to consider the possibility that there may be. And if they will be that open minded then they will most likely entertain the possibility that there may be some paranormal events – or at least events that they cannot explain, or that there may be other intelligent life in the universe – mathematical probability dictates that this is a rational conclusion (and there is a group of over 400 ex NASA, Air Force, Navy, Military etc personnel with top level security clearance going on the record as saying that not only are they out there – we have made contact with them.. Check out The Disclosure Project press conference on YouTube)

      Think about the word, a (indefinite article) theist (believer in theology).

      Perhaps you were thinking of anti-theists? They are usually more inclined to rule out anything paranormal or extra terrestrial and be firm skeptics.

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    • Shanti that’s interesting. I consider myself a reasonable person. I don’t believe in magic. I believe in cause and effect. It annoys me that I would have to be labeled anything either an athiest or an anti-theist. Both these terms sound negative as if I’m rejecting something. I think it’s those who believe in magical concepts should have the negative terms applied to them as they are rejecting reason and scientific princilples. Thus you would have two terms; reasonable people (who believe in scientific principles) an unreasonable people (who reject these notions). The unreasonable group can then be subdivided if they want to categorise themsevles into believers of gods, leprechauns, angels or whatever.

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    • Anne I get what you are saying, but it’s probably simply because religion came first, and fought science and reason tooth and nail for so long. I don’t mind being labelled as anti religion because I am. I have no issue with personal faith, or spirituality, but it’s like a penis – I expect people to keep it under wraps unless the time is appropriate to have it out, as opposed to ramming it down my throat!

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    • Lol, Still I don’t want to have to be labeled ‘anti-pens’ being shoved down my throat uninvited’ either. I just think that position is reasonable and so there shouldn’t be a label for it.

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    • That should of course read penis.

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    • Don’t worry, I got what you meant lol!!

      If its any consolation a-theist doesn’t really imply that you’re anti anything, more that you don’t have any definitive notion of “gods”, anti theists are perhaps a little more *opposed* to religion or the idea of any sort of higher power, hence why they take the *anti* on board.. I get where you are coming from on the being labelled at all, but us humans have this incessant need to categorise things, I guess it’s just part of our nature.. Each religion already has a name for their followers so the non believers seem to have been largely lumped in together which – as usual – is a poor indication of anything :) at least they’re not still calling us heathens!

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