Well if this was passed and you were hauled up in front of an Oireachtas committee of Michael Lowrys and Berties and Jackie Healy-Raes that made findings of fact against you without the availability of judicial review, I doubt you’d still be rabbiting on with your anti-lawyer, class war rhetoric. The cloak and the wig are no longer worn, by the way.

@ Brian Kelleher: Yes there are Jackie Healy Rae and Lowry types, but there are also Bernard Allen, Shane Ross and John McGuinness types who push(ed) the limited powers of the committees to attempt to bring ministers, public servants and others to account.

@ryan – Shane Ross was calling for a no vote. Keep up

@ Donncha: Indeed he was, but I was referring to the good investigate work he has done on the committees as they stand at the moment.

@Ryan

Yeah that’s all well and good but when as far as law-making is concerned you have to make it Gombeen-proof essentially. The fact that good TD’s exist doesn’t cancel out the existence of the Healy-Raes etc.

I’d rather spend millions on tribunals than compromise the rights of any individual, personally.

It’s Shampain!!

@ Brian: I can’t honestly see a way in which you can “gombeen-proof” lawmaking unless you prevent certain types of people from running for the Dail, which isn’t exactly democratic is it? Whether we care to acknowledge it or not, the likes of Healy-Rae and Lowry represent a certain part of Irish society – they represent the type of person who enjoy having a clientelism style relationship with their TD.

Likewise the fact that bad TD’s exist doesn’t cancel out the existence of the good ones. And if a second referendum was put before the people with a provision allowing the courts to determine if people’s rights were being infringed upon, they I would guess that it would get greater support.

McCarty type of witch hunt kangaroo courts No Thanks! & for your information Sinn Fein supported the defeated referendum for the life of me I don’t know why ? Unless in ten years when they eventually go into a coalition they could use the legislation to get some of those Stickies still left in Labour to answer where is the Official IRA guns & when did they leave the Official IRA Sinn Fein Workers Party Democratic Left Labour …..Best to leave all this to the Courts if it still matters

@Eire

Hang on there, weren’t you in favour of letting the Oireachtas control judges’ pay? Yet now you’re saying “No thanks!” to “kangaroo courts”?

….

and sinn fein were in favour of this amendment

I don’t mind them trying to pass it again, but it better be on helluva improvement or I’ll still vote no.

I have no problem with the politicians calling me before an inquiry if they feel it necessary. Actually i would welcome an opportunity to speak my mind. however I dare say there are a lot of people who would be terrified of the thought and they are smiling tonight along with the lawyers and barristers for whom tribunals are a gravy train.

That’s not the point. I don’t see why ANY member of the public needs to be accountable to politicians for their lawful actions. The courts are place to judge the conduct of citizens.

Politicians are accountable to the people, not vice versa. To remove power from the (formerly) independent arm of the judiciary is a gombeen’s charter. This amendment was fast-tracked through, with the presidential soap-opera as distraction for the don’t-knows.

I’d love to see certain people hauled up before reputable inquiries, but this was an affront to our constitution and to democracy.

Go got it in one!

Exactly what I was thinking. Typical Irish government. “that wasn’t the vote we wanted. Let’s do it again and again ’til you do as you’re told”

Back to the drawing board all right. If it was passed it would have been very good in the hands of an honest Fine Gael politician like Michael Noonan. But in the hands of dodgey FF politicians like Charlie and Bertie it would be bad.

Is that the same Michael Noonan who last week said that the Keane report would help families ‘break free from the shackles of debt’ but who also said in the same breath that some families would have to lose their homes?

The same Michael Noonan who while in opposition was hammering the government for their incompetence and for ignoring the wishes of the electorate and who is doing the very same things now he’s in their place?

The same Michael Noonan who was all for burning the bondholders 12 months ago but did a u-turn just a few weeks ago?

Should I go on or do you get the picture?

Many people, including the former AG’s, felt this amendment gave too much power to the Oireachtas.

If the Government come back with a differently worded proposal, which contains a provision for appeal to the courts and the checks and balances that Dave refers to, then that is a fundamentally different proposition to put before the people. It’s not the same as Lisbon or Nice because the same proposition was more or less put to the people twice.

By your logic we shouldn’t have had multiple divorce referendums/referenda!

Because the government knows we are very good little people who ALWAYS do what we are told and give them the correct answer in the end!!! We are pathetic!

@ryan, now you’re talking’! I would like to see more power of inquiry for oireachtas, but more watertight language used to define its powers. We have said no to this amendment, if a new better phrased amendment is proposed, its a whole new ball game.

Ryan, it’s referendums in the case of balloting the same issue. Different issues to be balloted would be referenda. Like we had this time.

And Paul, we will have repeated referendums until we learn not to cave in the second time.

Not really, what is ‘our’ opinion? Does the no vote mean ‘never’ or ‘do better and we’ll think about it’. There are many different motivations for the no vote, yours, while valid, is just one of them. Well done to all those who bothered to find out what the referendums were about and who voted.

Agreed. It’s Lisbon all over again. They will keep going till they’ve got the ‘yes’ result

Seanad and blasphemy law should be removed immediately.

Maybe the Court of public opinion i.e those of us who voted No! Just don’t trust Politicians!

Would you? Could you? Honestly trust Sinn Fein with this power (in years to come) if it had if been a Yes vote!

2 words. Charlie Haughey.

Brendan howling….

Well, if they give us a decent piece of legislation, with checks and balances appropriate to democracy, we will happily vote yes. No one disagrees with the need for enquiries, but we want the legislative basis for them to be correct!

We voted that no ones righs should be violated atany point in the future ever, the last inquiry had a garda in front of it, he prob didnt think hed be in the .1% either

Wow well done, you really have thought this through. ‘it may be unfair but because I’m not affected, I don’t care…’ Take a bow.

Fact.. No enquiry needed…

No, no means not yet, as demonstrated by the divorce referendums years back, and more recently, lisbon treaty, and I imagine in the near future, probably another referendum on abortion.

I think a lot of people voted No because they were not sure exactly what they were voting for, so when in doubt leave it out! If the wording was made clearer and independent people drafted and explained it I’d say it would pass next time. Government based committees of enquiry seem to work elsewhere so why not here. It was just the sneaky underhand way the government tried to do it that made people suspicious. Transparency my a… They are as bad as FF/PD shower.

Yes. There will be another Referendum and a load of scare story put out. About how we need TD’s to look into Currupt Developers, Land Deal and the Banking system. The only problen is……We cannot trust them either.

Joerg, it’s because it shouldn’t have been put to us in the first place if it was so sloppy. Even when run along with other votes it is expensive to run each time. Most people agree in principle that the Oireachtas should have more investigative powers to remove any need for expensive tribunals, but the powers they were proposing were too over-reaching, too draconian for an elected representative to have. We do not need McCarthy-ite witch-hunts. The 30th Amendment would have given rise to such a scenario.
We expect a reworded proposal again, and if appropriate we’ll vote in favour of it, but we should have gotten the correct wording in the first place.

45,053 idiots more like! It’s a YES/NO question. You agree, you vote yes. You have any number of problems/issues with the question, you vote NO. Anyone deliberately spoiling their ballot on this is showing off how much of a gobshite they are.

I agree with Noel. The referendum could very easily have been passed because of the absence of those spoilt votes. What would they be proving then? When asked a Tá/Níl question you should answer Tá or Níl. Spoilt votes are grown in the bin, even if there’s an explanation written on it why you’re spoiling your vote. Nobody reads or collates them, nobody cares!

*thrown*

The fact is that the courts of law are best qualified to conduct trials of citizens, rather than politicians or the media
.
The recent and blatent example was one citizen Sean Gallagher who was prosecuted tried and convicted on TV . The “conviction ” cost him the election.
It now appears that he did not commit the “offence” he was “cnvicted” of.
Where does that leave “Justice” irrespective of whether we like Gallagher or not.