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Dublin: 8 °C Tuesday 21 May, 2013

Government criticised over Defence Force allowances and Ombudsman downgrade

PDFORRA has said members are not entitled to overtime and so allowances are part of core pay.

Members of the 98th infantry Battalion of the Irish Defence Forces in Kilkenny in 2008.
Members of the 98th infantry Battalion of the Irish Defence Forces in Kilkenny in 2008.
Image: Niall Carson/PA Archive/Press Association Images

PDFORRA, THE ORGANISATION representing soldiers, sailors and aircrew has criticised the government over recommendations to abolish five allowances paid to its members.

The recommendation was announced with the outcome of the government’s review of allowances in the public service.

Speaking at the opening of the organisations annual delegate conference last night, Gerry Rooney, General Secretary of PDFORRA said its members are paid a limited number of allowances as part of a “historic system”, which was essentially designed to block the seeking and payment of overtime and premium payments.

“It is quite remarkable and totally unacceptable that these allowances could now be reviewed or abolished”, he said.

Rooney said the Defence Forces are the only uniformed service not entitled to claim overtime and the allowance system minimised the cost to the state at times when irregular and long hours were the norm for members.

“Allowances paid to members of the Defence Forces are properly part of core pay and should continue to be paid on this basis,” he added. ”We will be taking a very strong line on this issue, as many of our members are now in receipt of up the 20% less income that had been received previously”.

Ombudsman

Today the organisation also slammed the decision to downgrade the office of the Ombudsman for the  Defence Forces which it said was “perhaps indicative of the overall attitude to the Defence Forces”.

The Department of Defence now plans to reduce the office, which dealt with 83 cases last year, from a full-time to a part-time post.

The reason given for the downgrade was the increase in complaints resolution at local level but Simon Devereaux, Deputy General Secretary of PDFORRA said the downgrade “gives out the wrong message and increases the possibility of old habits and culture emerging”.

“A reduction in the time that can be dedicated to resolving complaints at local level will probably see a rise in bullying and harassment incidents”, he said. “For some reason we were not consulted on this issue or given any opportunity to raise our understandable concerns about this flawed decision.”

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Comments (81 Comments)

  • What are the allowances for and how much are they, does anyone know? Wouldn’t say it’s a fraction what councillors and politicians get and they certainly do very little for their money.

    Reply
    • Yes I know ( up to 2008) I was EOD and when on duty 24 hours or the weekend the allowance was €70 a day…. Now I am not to sure if this will irritate the anti – army trolls here but I assure you doing a 24 hour shift on call with the responsibility for people lives for 70 quid ain’t a lot to ask for and I am sure the level headed readers and contributors of the journal would agree, we never complained about our duty money( which is taxed) which is pittance, we never whined when when on border duty during the ” operations” when the guards got hotel food brought out and we got our bully beef sandwiches with warm tea, we never whinged when called out to aid the public during floods, snow,bin strike,postal strike,bus strike and excepted that ya got an extra 30 odd euro for your effort… You can all berate the Defence Forces if you wish but it’s part of the civil service that is and was always the poor 3rd cousin 4 times removed, whatever we got we had to fight tooth and nail for, yes maybe there are parts that need a little tweaking but overall it’s function is ATCP ( aid to the civil power) and without it you would start to see society changing for the worse( or worse than it is already ) so please spare a thought for the soldiers who go about there daily business , ready to be called at any time , any hour on mediocre allowances.

      Reply
  • @Mike, you dont know what you’re talking about, all soldiers both enlisted and Officers get the military service allowance after 3 years service.

    Reply
    • mike 03/10/12 #

      No not unless they have been commissioned which usually happens in the third year, this is why a lot of people assume that they all get it after their third year.

      Reply
    • Mike, please stop, you’re embarrassing yourself here. Anyone who knows anything about the Irish Defence force will know you’re talking absolute nonsense.

      PS, there is not even one Army in the world that has 3 year training before commissioning.
      Also, enlisted men do not get commissioned, only Officers get commissioned.

      Reply
  • Can’t believe some of the comments people are posting aimed at insulting the DF, while there are those of us out in Lebanon who haven’t seen our families or friends, are worried about if our job will be in the same county when we return and if our pay packet will yet again take another hit. The DF is a waste of money?? Tell that to the people over here, to the kids who get taught english and to the people whom we provide jobs for so they can support there families and the countless other local projects we do. Tell that to the people who may have been blown up had it not been for the EOD or for the drivers of the cash vans who we protect as well as the money – the nurses who we drive to work in bad conditions and to the elderly who depend on those nurses.
    Some people sicken me with their narrow minded way of thinking!!

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  • The Defence force is an easy target for the gombeen government, there will be no hope of the Defence forces getting any overtime payment regardless of the cuts to allowances. It is illegal for members of the Defence forces to go on strike and without industrial action they will get nowhere, PDFORRA are little more than a talking shop with no hope of preventing any cuts now or in the future. The future is bleak for the Permanent Defence Force of Ireland and currently the moral in the force must be at an all time low.

    No promotions, cuts to allowances and the reorganisation which led to hundreds of families being uprooted and dispersed across the country such as the Dublin units now being moved to down the country, regardless of the fact people have houses and children in schools in Dublin, the gombeens in charge care little about the consequences of their ill thought out actions.

    Reply
    • Ehhh ? Never mind the allowances. What exactly do we need the defence forces for?. We have the Health and Safety Authority and the EPA . That covers almost everything

      Reply
    • Tom,I don’t a disagree with what you have said,but it should be noted that the PDF have been playing their own form of Gombeen politics for the last 4 years and PDF top brass have destroyed the RDF,a lot of the cuts and efficiencies they signed up to have Been at the expensive of the RDF.

      We need a defence forces,but the model of delivery needs a radical shake up,and the PDF gave fought it for a long time,albeit more subtly than other sectors of the public sector.IMO.

      Reply
    • @Josh Barton, i’d really enjoy the look on the faces of the health and safety authority personnel when they arrive at the scene of the latest pipe bomb at 4am.
      don’t make childish comments until you at least have the decency to acquire some knowledge of what we actually do in the PDF.
      for the record, Tom Rooney is correct, the morale of the defence forces is at an all time low. we have been decimated in recent years but we do what all good soldiers do… we do what we’re told to do, no matter what time it is.
      try to remember that the next time you’re tucked up in your nice warm bed and you hear about an army bomb disposal unit making safe another viable device. that involves brave men and women stepping up to the mark and putting their lives at risk so that the people of Ireland can all sleep soundly.

      Reply
    • @ Pj Davis.
      Of course you’re right the comment was a bit frivolous. But on the other hand maybe we need to take a step back and look at why we need all this expense. The example that you use is perfect. How many pipe bombs do the defense forces handle every year ?. Hmmm and we need an army an airforce a reserve force to handle this. I don’t think so. Pipe bombs and such like can be handled by the police , like other countries for instance the US. Same goes for security detail for cash in transit, We don’t need multiple organizations with expensive overhead structures when we can use what we have with some additional training. And your last paragraph is like something out of the Fallujah daily news. The defense forces are a luxury and you’re passionate prose only impresses yourself

      Reply
    • Pj Davis 04/10/12 #

      As i have already stated Josh, at least give us the courtesy of taking a small amount of time and gather the facts of what our organisation actually does. bomb disposal is only a fraction of the ATCP duties we carry out. the role of the defence forces covers a broad spectrum both at home and abroad. there are many sites online that will enlighten you and others who seem intent on the destruction of PDF. for what reasons i do not know… only time will tell.
      good luck

      Reply
    • Pj Davis 04/10/12 #

      a few examples… for those who question our worth
      Sunday 16 September 2012, 8.20pm.
      Army Bomb Disposal Team Destroys Grenade Found in Ranelagh, Dublin,

      18 September 2012
      The Air Corps completed a time critical Air Ambulance to London overnight.
      The Duty Officer received the request from the Ambulance Controller at 10.00pm and the Air Corps Gulfstream IV was airborne with the patient at 10.30pm.
      ‘Irish 251′ landed in Heathrow Airport at 11.15pm where they were met by an awaiting ambulance.

      Statement 2.40 Pm Saturday 22 September 2012
      Naval Service Vessel LE Niamh Called to Assist Yacht on Fire of South Coast

      Reply
    • Pj Davis 04/10/12 #

      ah, we’re a wonderful lot today…tomorrow we go back to being the vilains again
      By Irish Defence Forces
      Statement – 3.15pm, Thurs 04 Oct 2012 Army Bomb Disposal Team Makes Safe Two Viable Improvised Explosive Devices in Darndale, Dublin An Army Bomb Disposal Team made safe two viable Improvised Explosive Devices (IED) in Darndale, Dublin this afternoon. The Defence Forces deployed the team to Tara Lawn, Darndale following a request from the Gardai as part of a planned operation; the area had been cordoned by the Gardai and local residents were evacuated to a safe location.

      Reply
  • My dad is a long serving member of the defence forces and let me tell you the way our soldiers are treated is a bloody disgrace.

    Reply
  • Mike, you want convincing? Fine. I’m 30 years a soldier. Everyone gets military service. Except recruits. Now, tell me I’m wrong and I can’t read my own pay packet!!

    Reply
  • In reply to your comment Mr. Lennon about the Army letting down and not protecting northern Catholics I would like to point out that an Army does what it’s told, by its government , and does not act arbitrarily. That why an oath is taken on enlistment. You don’t get to make your own decisions. That’s the deal. That is all.

    Reply
  • Mjhint 03/10/12 #

    I have worked a long side some lads in the defense forces & if anybody commenting here thinks they are over paid or not necessary you are very badly informed.

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  • @Mike, having read through a couple of your posts it is clear you have absolutely no idea about the defence forces or what they get paid or what taxes their pay is subject to. Do yourself a favour and keep your twaddle to yourself because you’re only highlighting your total ignorance of the issue.

    Reply
    • mike 03/10/12 #

      ah poor Tom. Doesn’t like it when people don’t agree with him. Try and act like an adult and convince me I’m wrong with facts and intelligent argument rather than throwing insults like a school hard bully.

      Reply
    • Mike, I treat people as I find them, if you act and type twaddle like you have the IQ of a rock I’m going to treat you as such, you can ram your PC crap, it doesn’t wash with me.

      How about you take your own advice and prove to us that enlisted men get commissioned after 3 years, also prove as you claimed that only officers get a military service allowance.

      Reply
    • Let’s keep it civil please folks.

      Reply
    • Dave! 03/10/12 #

      Sorry mike, gotta go with tom, I was enlisted for 8 years, got military service allowance after three years and then increased after two more. The five year payment is the ceiling for this payment. Commissioned officers don’t enlist. They do a disclipline specific cadet ship and get commissioned at the end. There is a criteria for for enlisted men to get a commission but they are rare.

      Reply
    • Gerard 03/10/12 #

      Will someone please take mikes shovel away, he clearly doesn’t know when to stop digging

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    • Mike I am ex army (24 ) years…… Your wrong on all accounts….. That ok???

      Reply
  • That’s a lesson taught by someone who’s knowledge of Irish history goes back as far as the Wolfe tones back catalogue…educate yourself before you comment and stop making a show of yourself…. By the way I know loads of lads that were discharged from the defence forces for not cutting it and being dead weight only to say the army is shite… Maybe you mate of a mate was one of those…

    Reply
  • @mike: your an idiot, who has no clue what he’s talking about, quit while your ahead. Hey Tom !!

    Reply
  • Is it cost effective to change the system? This is the question we need to ask ourselves. I know a lot of soldiers who work very very long hours and if they are not getting allowances then they will seek overtime. Will the added costs of administrating and the cost of these payments render savings negligible? I fear that the government is not asking these questions

    Reply
    • They may seek overtime, doesn’t mean they will get it. Allowances where they exist need to be looked at, some need to be abolished completely and others need to be incorporporated into core pay.

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    • Jeff 03/10/12 #

      Work ? are we at War ? did some battle end later than planned..

      Reply
    • Reg 03/10/12 #

      They are in the military! In the UK armed forces there is no such thing as overtime. You are paid a daily rate, seven days a week, 365 days a year and can be expected to work at any time. The only compensation you might get are a couple of extra days off.

      Seems like the Irish military have caught the Irish public sector disease, and have to be financially compensated for anything outside of routine. Time for a reality check, the country is broke!

      Reply
    • Noel . If they seek overtime and don’t get it then they should not do overtime again. It’s not a case of doing overtime and seeing whether u get it down the road .

      Reply
    • Reg 04/10/12 #

      Gerry, the concept of overtime for the military is just ridiculous. Do they pay it every time soldiers go on exercise for a week or two, go night firing on the ranges, pull a guard duty at weekends?

      Reply
  • Sorry Mike but you are 100 miles away from the facts….

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  • Mike I believe your false claims have been refuted beyond all doubt both by myself and the other knowledgeable folk posting. Hey Pudgey bear.

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  • It used to get wound up with the anti army comments but now I read them and laugh at how full of crap they are. It’s so obvious when someone hasn’t got a bulls b%lO@x notion of what there talking about. Maybe keeping your mouth shut when you haven’t a clue would be a good rule…that was for you Richard by the way..

    Reply
    • The Irish army is a bleeding joke My brother was in it for a few years and he says its a waste of time. Close the lot down, and Captain Griffin how many wars did ye win.In 1969 when the Irish army was asked to protect the catholics from the B specials ye let them down badly. PS.Thats a free history lesson for you @Richard Griffin.

      Reply
    • I had a mate who had a mate who said the Defence Forces were a waste of time, so the thousands of people serving there are all useless…

      If you actually knew anything about what the Defence Forces do for this country and for other countries you wouldn’t be saying that they are useless.

      Reply
    • Richard,you must be a troll.seriously,have you any idea of history,or is it just something you picked up from your brother the failed soldier.

      Reply
    • Pj Davis 04/10/12 #

      well said richiefett…..have you any idea of history,or is it just something you picked up from your brother the failed soldier. ha ha ha…lmao… sooooo true
      stinks of disappointed exer … couldn’t hack it in a real mans job so i’ll slate them… Pity the FOOL

      Reply
  • Mr Lennon, I can’t remember any occasion in my lifetime when the members of “security vans” carried armed weapons in this country. The people who carry them at the moment to protect those escorts (weather you agree or not) are the members of the Defence Forces. Forgive me if I offer the opinion that they are the best trained, most motivated, and professional people in the country, to carry a weapon on a street apart from our colleagues in the Gardai, and be competent enough to have to use it in a situation which demands it. I’m guessing you have not. In fact I would be doubtful if you have ever held a firearm in a situation where it may have to be used (legally). Stop trolling.

    Reply
    • STOP trolling yourself ,thats what people say when they are losing.

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    • Hi Gerry do you get your kicks going on to the streets with a gun pretending your rambo.The best trained your joking the Afgan aarmy is better trained you clown. Now umpie hart and milk the cows farmer boy.

      Reply
    • Me thinks private Lennon couldn’t cut the mustard…. So bitter…. So angry… It makes very little difference what you say Mr Lennon, you will never be as professional or have the integrity of troops I trained with, troops I served with, troops I trained, your extreme anger towards the Defence Forces only leads me to believe you are a failed soldier, are related to a failed soldier or have ED ( erectile dysfunction) whatever the reason we walk over guys like you just to used the ablutions , so in our eyes you are …. Well…. Nothing.

      Reply
  • Aarum 03/10/12 #

    If they’re not getting paid for extra hours work, they should down tools and head home

    Reply
  • Emmet 03/10/12 #

    How can the government or PAC actually seek to remove allowances seriously when the TD’s & Senators expenses bill was €750k for the month of August when neither house had a sitting…. They have no credibility or integrity

    Reply
  • And what would you know about the defence forces level of training mr Lennon in comparison to other armed forces? Please enlighten me.

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    • I know a lot about them idiots in the so called army. OVER WEIGHT TIME WASTERS,

      Reply
    • Pj Davis 05/10/12 #

      OVER WEIGHT TIME WASTERS, you’re just showing the world what an ignorant person you are… i’d like to use the word “man” but you’re a coward who’d prefer to attack people from the safety of a keyboard.
      don’t worry, we’ll continue to soldier while you continue to convince yourself that you’re great. I feel sorry for you’re partner, i wonder what He/She will say when they find out your a pussy.

      Reply
  • Problem solved…. Sure your only brilliant. I’m voting for you next time..

    Reply
  • mike 03/10/12 #

    If an allowance is deemed to be part of core pay then it shouldn’t be cut. BUT if it is core pay then it should be TAXED like core pay. At present allowances are tax free. They can’t have it both ways.

    Reply
  • mike 03/10/12 #

    What has an allowance to buy knickers got to do with overtime anyway….

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  • Do we even need a army they spend most their time training for what

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  • @Richard Griffin
    I don’t know what a Tracker mortgage is!

    Reply
  • Why dont the banks pay them.They are all ways minding their money.and if a war broke out the beds in sick bay would be full.

    Reply
  • Emmet,. I agree with you the senate should be abolished along with the so called army,Just get a security company to mind the banks money and the bomb squad to be under the Garda command then problem solved..

    Reply
  • mike 03/10/12 #

    Tom. I posted a comment which you claim is not true. Then it’s up to you to prove me wrong. What you are doing now is the online equilivant of trying to shout someone down. Anyway my break is over so I’m back to work now. Try to not insult me again as I won’t be online to defend myself.

    Reply
    • In the DF if you are training to become an officer you do 2 full years training and then you are commissioned in the third year….before anyone says I know nothing take a deep breath a read the following……I served time aboard the LE Aisling,so will know a hell of slot more then some here….

      Reply
    • Pj Davis 04/10/12 #

      sorry mike… i’m serving … for the first 3 years of service we get military service allowance 1 “MSA1″ i’m not 100% sure of the amount but its in the region of 25-30 euro after tax.. after 3 years it rises to MSA2 , aprox 70 euro after tax.
      that enables the DF to make me work anywhere and any amount of time they so wish.
      90+ hr weeks are not uncommon for all serving personnel.
      I’ll gladly trade mine for overtime rates.
      :-)

      Reply
  • mike 03/10/12 #

    Nocturnal. the military service allowance is only paid to some officers so the major of soldiers don’t get it.

    Reply
  • What 5 allowances are being cut?

    Reply

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