Isn’t “rational priest” an oxymoron?

The Professor of Logic in Trinity used to be priest. That’s a bigger oxymoron.

I don’t understand why priests take this stance – they know that they cannot win.

Kaja, that happened after the whole nonsense was exposed in the 16th century by Galileo, Kepler, Copernicus etc and by Darwin in the 19th century. The problem is priests are not scientists and live in denial. He’s just living in slightly less denial than the rest of them.

Well the church is helping itself destroy itself by doing this so in many ways it’s doing far more good than bad!

I don’t think he is willing to leave the church to the politburo in Rome. It doesn’t belong to them & I admire him for the stand he is taking on behalf of all the ordinary Catholics he represents.

At the risk of kicking it all off here – if the ‘ordinary Catholics’ agree with the priests views, why are they Catholics in the first place?

What of widowed men who become priests? They do exist and are growing in number.

Good point, let me rephrase then, 99.9%

Widowers and the influx of priests from Anglicanism are a growing and welcome development.

Copernicus wasn’t excommunicated, nor was Galileo.

Jacob Boehme was a Lutheran, so he couldn’t have been excommunicated by the Catholic Church.

Giordano Bruno was excommunicated by the Lutherans, not the Catholic Church,

Bruno Giordano was a footballer.

Ignatius of Loyola was investigated and released by the inquisition.

You again? Ok yes, a bit sloppy and maybe just a trifle lazy on my part but then again who the flock else is really going to notice?

All Hail Discordia

: )

Well if you’re going to condemn the Catholic Church for things it has done, is it not better to cite things it actually has done?

Either way, by and large, they came to a sticky end over their beliefs. Boehme did not but then he was really quite nice.

Copernicus, a priest, died before they could shaft him. He knew they would, which is why he only published his book, on the orbits of the planets around the Sun, on his death bed. A copy of the first edition was placed on his chest shortly before he died.

Galileo was put under house arrest for the rest of his life and like the Rev Flannery above had to recant. He was threatened with torture if he didn’t.

Giordano Bruno, a Catholic Friar/Priest, was burned at the stake by the Inquisition for among other things stating that the Earth went around the Sun.

You would think that any organisation that was that wrong and evil would have no adherents among anyone today who had read even a smidgen of History or Science. The problem is badly educated humans are not very rational.

@ Damocles – well done!!

@ Anne – ha ha ha!!!!!

You are all assuming the earth does rotate around the sun. It’s not provable, either by terrestrial observation or outer space observation

There there Denis… see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_Earth_Society for further evidence to support your fixed position in the universe.

@Willie. Willie, if you were not educated so far beyond your ability, you would know that the curvature of the earth is provable, and was proven nearly 3,000 years ago and referred to as the “circle of the earth” by the prophet Isaiah. Heliocentricity and geocentricity are both mathematically possible and neither stance can be acquired 100% scientifically. Your ignorance of such a common subject is also a mathematical certainty.

Denis, can I suggest you look up Godel’s incompleteness theorems before you make a statement like this again, “neither stance can be acquired 100% scientifically”.

William, the mathematics works equally well for both geo & helio. Which stance you adopt is merely preference, not science

ah ah be careful William. people who have faith in God are not “badly educated humans” Nice sneaky little dig you got in there. Religion and faith are two very different things.

There is no one with “faith in god”, or gods for that matter. People who say that have been brainwashed into thinking that it makes sense to say that. All people who think they have “faith” are deluded. “Faith” is just a buzz word used by the con artists that prey on people.

Most interesting that you criticise the finances of the Church when your own picture is a £1 note.
A walk into many rural churches will show you that the buildings are in need of repair and finance is not as flush as you claim.
Your nonsense about the “silver and gold” is akin to saying Ireland should sell off some of our national treasures to pay debts.

Whatever about the overall merits of the Bible I don’t think Jesus Christ is “made up”. He is a recorded historical figure even if I don’t believe everything the Church would have us believe about him.

If in Rome do pop along to the headquarters of the catholic church – the Vatican Bank. Your average Joe can’t open an account there as they only deal in millions, not paltry sums like a few thousand euro. Then stop by the Vatican museum. The Pope us its curator. The stuff on display is beyond price (and remember that that’s just a small selection of the priceless artefacts in their possession). No wonder they say money is the root of all evil.

The Bible, like statistic can be used to prove many things or confuse and can be a weapon in the hands of some. The Catholic Church on the other hand relies on the Holy Spirit to fulfil it’s duty and mission. A book written after an event is no authority to stand against the eternal influence of the Holy Spirit.

Convert to Buddhism, leave If you don’t like?

Take them to Court?

Poor Mick! Next time the parish priest drags you to mass, call the guards!
I think you’ll find it isn’t compulsory to be in the Catholic Church.

You can just stop going to mass and don’t put Catholic in the census.
It’s quite easy.

The Catholic Church still counts him as a member. It’s nearly as absurd as the Mormons baptising dead people.

@Michael – your comment is disgraceful and insulting to the huge majority of priests and bishops who have never done wrong.

And why does anyone give a toss whether it counts them as a member or not?

They get us when we’re babies, tell our parents we must be christened or if we die we won’t go to heaven lol, there should be a law against this, religion is a personal thing not something that should be decided for someone else. Personally I can’t stand the church or anything it stands for but hey guess what I was never asked, no choice, just brain washed. Thank “god” ;) I have a mind of my own and I use it.

The Church didn’t force your parents to baptise you. It was their choice.
Their child is in their care so they made the decision, not the Church.

What do you mean: You were “brainwashed”? So you did decide by yourself to get baptised?
I thought you said they “got you” when you were a baby?

What others consider us is surely of secondary concern to what we consider ourselves.

Worf, didn’t they do wrong by helping with the cover up? If someone stayed in such an organisation instead of resigning, isn’t that very wrong?

Women as the mothers of life are in a role that surpasses the sacramental role that non Catholics demand for them. Women are being insulted and being used by enemies of the Catholic Church by it being implied that they are of lesser value than priests. Priests guided by the Holy Spirit know this and serve women knowing that as mere men they can not serve God in the unique and holy ways that a woman can in her unique role. Do not not to be misled or confused in this or any other matter by the enemies of the God of diversity.

The church didn’t force anybody to be baptized, but they made it very difficult to enroll in your local school if your not baptized.

Niall, good point.

The Catholic Church does indeed force people to baptise their offspring through the act of brainwashing. It has happened in every generation. People brainwashed as children to believe in the total nonsense that is religious belief, then brainwash the next generation. That’s the ONLY reason the vast majority of religious people in the world are the same religion as their parents.

No one with any sort of intelligence could believe in the Catholic Churches view of reality unless they were brainwashed. You couldn’t possibly come to it from an intellectual or knowledge based position.

There isn’t a shred of evidence or logic to support any of the supernatural beliefs of any religion. The opposite is the case. In the last 500 years almost all the so called great mysteries have been answered and proven by Science.

You can officially leave Michael. http://Www.countmeout.ie

Marina, you can’t use that anymore but there is another way: publicly defile the host. Take the magic bread and throw it on the ground, stomp on it if you like for extra relish, and then they’ll kick you out.

I think you find i said i want to officially leave the Church and have my name removed. But they will not let you. Bit like scientology. i never want my name on any of there so called document and never gave permission. What right do they have to claim they speak for me becouse they will not let me leave. Pathetic and illogical

Not true at all. There is evidence. Read and study more about that which you condemn.

There is evidence. Read and study more about that which you condemn.

Lynn, if you claim there is evidence then it’s up to you to supply it. Give me ONE, single, piece of evidence. Anything? Give it your best shot.

Very broad topic to respond to in short form. Do you not believe any of the gospel writers at all? Thousands did and were martyred for their beliefs- that many would do that for a myth?? Not very likely at all. More scientifically, Godel’s ontological proof of existence of God ( mathematician Kurt Godel).

Do you not believe Stan Lee wrote the Spider-Man comics about an actual Spider-Man?

Islamic fundamentalists are blowing themselves and other innocent people up every day. They must have the right idea, surely they wouldn’t do that if not?

Nobody’s been told that in half av century b

Nobody has been told that in half a century.

Islam does not ” believe in suicide” as ok any more than Christianity. They are not being ” killed for” their religion as a martyr, rather they are ( as you said, fundamentalists) dying in the ” name of”. Bit of a difference.

Lynn, that was your best shot?? It’s not a broad topic. I asked for ONE piece of evidence. No I don’t believe the “the gospel writers”. Why would I? They contradict one another. Nobody can even say who they were. Do I believe them when they claim the Earth is flat and that the Sun revolves around it?

Godel didn’t prove God exists. That’s nonsense. He, and others, claimed that if we can imagine a perfect being, then to be perfect he must exist. So that means man made god? How could he as God is supposed to have made man.

People have been martyred for all sorts of beliefs. Do you believe in God because Atta “martyred” himself piloting a plane into the Twin Towers? The ONLY reason the vast majority of people believe in gods is brainwashing. Were you brainwashed?

You don’t ” martyr yourself”, that is called suicide. No, I am not brainwashed, rather I am well educated and have read and studied a lot and come to my own conclusions. We have obviously read different books. As many a philosopher has said, ” upon death, what if there really is a God, heaven and/or hell? Would you rather believe or not?” Faith is not equated to ” brainwashing”. Following any religion and committing murder to others and oneself is simply wrong. No church or religion is perfect, but I choose to follow what I thought was closest to the truth. No need to name call those who came to that conclusion. This story was about a priest who chooses not to follow the religion he took vows to – he can leave the church and start his own. Others have done that before him.

Lynn, your point was that evidence that there’s a god (or the 3 in one god of the Catholics) is that there were martyrs. That presumably means that Muslim martyrs begat Muslim gods and Hindu martyrs begat the 250,000 Hindu gods? Doesn’t make sense does it? It’s not evidence.

Your point that I’m better off believing in god in case I get to heaven and discover I’m wrong is obviously as daft as your point re martyrs. Which god do I “believe in”, the Hindu gods or your one? What if your god doesn’t exist and you come back as a little pony? Shouldn’t you believe in reincarnation just in case?

Don’t mind what Philosophers say, they have no evidence either. Philosophy was made mostly redundant when Science was invented.

Do you REALLY think that Catholics who were brought up as Catholics since childhood and then “studied” came to the conclusion that their often uneducated parents & grandparents were correct and that amazingly all the people of all the other religions in the world, now and in the past, who also studied and decided their religion were correct, were actually wrong? Wow! Really?

Wow. Yes. Really. You make many generalizations about things I said. Philosophy is not dead due to science. Philosophy is a science. I do not know about Hindus and Muslims that study their faith and claim it do be so. There are more uneducated in those countries than Christian countries, so not likely. There are, however, some know well educated Muslims that have converted from Islam to Catholicism. Surprised you don’t know that. You make assumptions about my faith that I have not stated, as well as my background. I am also not sure we yet agree on what a martyr is as you keep referring to people who commit suicide as some example of belief in their God. It is my belief that we all believe in the same God. Hindus also consider themselves to believe in one god, even though there are others they pray to. It seems you need to do more studying, but sounds like you have closed your mind to the very idea. This has gotten way off topic from the wayward priest!

Lynn, Philosophy is not a science. It doesn’t follow the scientific method in the slightest. It’s mostly a navel gazing useless guessing exercise.

The fact that a miniscule number of Muslims have converted to Catholicism (if that is true) is utterly irrelevant. Maybe they married a Catholic or thought that Islam was so backward they were embarrassed to belong to it.

The Hindus do not believe in the one god and there are plenty of religions without a Christian type god, Buddhism, Shinto, Paganism, the ancient Egyptian religions, etc. To say that the Mormon god who dishes out planets to dead people is the same god as say Ganesha is nonsense.

The VAST majority of religious people are the religion of their parents. These religions all disagree with one another so at the very least all bar one must be wrong. If you can state that all bar one is definitely wrong and there is no logical basis to decide which one is correct then the only position is to assume all are wrong. However if you can’t break free of your childhood brainwashing then logic doesn’t come into it.

You cannot seem to break from the ” brainwashing” theory. Sad. You seriously believe that no one can go out and learn on their own and come to the conclusion that their parents had? That is seriously close minded of you.

Philosophy is regarded as a form of protoscience. This is argued amongst scientists as well and a bit much on this forum. Suffice it to say, there are people who would agree with both of us. There is speculative philosophy and scientific philosophy – which I assume you feel is an impossible association with any religion.

I’ve lost track as to whether you are just anti-Catholic or an atheist as your comments suggest both. Many people in the Hindu or Buddhist world have never even had opportunity to hear of Jesus and his story. Of course most people are the religion of their parents. Then they grow up, learn other things and figure out what they want – depending on the country of origin ( there does not exist this freedom in many places). I am well aware of multiple gods in Hinduism, but they consider themselves to believe in one supreme God while accepting existence of lesser ones ( parallel to saints perhaps). Sorry you feel brainwashed- hope you can get help to pull out of that. Then perhaps you can see more clearly what I have tried to say without the insulting remarks. Best of luck.

Lynn, there’s no “scientific philosophy”, there’s Science and Philosophy. If what someone is doing is Science then that’s that. In claiming scientific philosophy, Philosophy is probably trying to rescue their “profession” from obscurity and irrelevance.

You are refusing to see a major flaw in your logic or maybe I’m not explaining well. In the vast majority of cases, maybe 99+%, religious people are the religion they are not because they studied but because they were brainwashed as children. Small children whose minds are not developed are easy to brainwash. They are not taught religion, they are indoctrinated, or as the Catholic Church calls it, “faith forming”. You would have to be indoctrinated as otherwise no sane, logical, educated person could believe in hell, heaven, souls, hob goblins and all the other fantasy creatures and places that religious people believe in. [There are some exceptions: people who have serious drink or drug problems, people after breakdowns etc.]

Arguing whether or not Muslims are better educated than Christians is irrelevant.

When people, brainwashed as children into believing in a particular religion, then perhaps as teenagers, study their religion and perhaps others AND then claim that they know the religion of their parents is the right one all along are not telling the truth. That’s not what happens. What happens is that they were brainwashed and the attempt at studying (and studying philosophy would be useless as would say the Bible) wasn’t genuine and certainly not successful.

I know this because the vast majority of people who are religious, WHETHER or not they claimed they studied their religion, IF they remain religious STILL stay in the same religion as their parents.

If indeed the religion they adopted was one of the other ones, perhaps mostly one of them, say Shinto, then they might have an argument. I have never heard a religious person state, “I’m religious because I was brainwashed and haven’t had the time to study it.”

If you want to know the truth you must refute the points I make and not refer to irrelevancies such as whether you are insulted, a common defence mechanism of the religious. “You’re insulting me so I’m off – end of your chance to get to the truth – once more.”

PS I’m a Humanist. I’m also very anti-religious because it’s very dangerous nonsense and does things like ostracise people (Like Rev Flannery), blow up skyscrapers (like the Twin Towers) and generally involves an anti-Science bias which leads to Global Warming denial for example.

Too bad you can’t debate this offline. I consider myself sane and highly educated. I am a physician and scientist who believes in God and the Catholic Church. Religion has indeed been the cause of many wars and insanity, but not the majority by a longshot. You and I do agree on a few points but you don’t seem to read that through. Religion is not disputing global warming nor science. Pity you do not realize that simple point. On this forum, it sounds like you touch the surface of many world religions, but do not delve deeply into any one in particular and you seem very angry at the Catholic Church. Odd that you made comment on this story – why care? Good discussion.

Until an infallible papal creed rubbishes the previous infallible decision…. Eh my head hurts

The question is who should he obey in the first place.

Obedience to the Church or to the Creator, indeed.