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Dublin: 18 °C Wednesday 19 June, 2013

Gardaí ‘will not accept pay cuts’ as sergeants question Shatter figures

The associations representing both Garda sergeants and ordinary members have lashed out at the government today.

Image: Laura Hutton/Photocall Ireland

THE BODIES representing both Garda sergeants and rank-and-file members have lashed out at the government – with ordinary members warning against proposed Garda pay cuts, while sergeants accused the Minister for Justice of trying to ‘confuse the public’.

The Garda Representative Association, which represents rank-and-file members of the force, this evening said it would not participate in any negotiations that proposed a cut to Garda pay – suggesting the group has pulled out of the current talks on extending the Croke Park agreement.

“Our membership have told us that they cannot accept any further reduction in Garda pay, nor can they accept a reduction in the terms and conditions of their employment,” the body said this evening following a meeting of its central executive committee.

“Garda pay is protected under the Croke Park Agreement that our members have honoured in full, and any attempt to renege on this will be challenged,” they said.

However, the association said it would be willing to examine any revised proposals or cost-cutting measures which would not impact on pay or hours worked. “We will make our position known on any further proposals at that time,” it said.

The association added that its members were facing “great financial hardship” – with many unable to pay their mortgages or loans – while continuing to serve their communities.

Sergeants query Shatter’s ’61,000 hours’ claim

Earlier, the group representing Garda sergeants accused justice minister Alan Shatter of trying to mislead the public over the reasons behind the decision to close 100 Garda stations this year, including 95 which shut last week.

Shatter had yesterday claimed that the closure of the stations – many of which opened for three hours a day or less – would mean fewer Gardaí assigned to desk duty and result in an extra 61,000 Garda patrol hours this year.

The Association of Garda Sergeants and Inspectors took issue with the claim, however – with its general secretary John Redmond describing Shatter’s claim as “simply not true”.

“It is the case, in fact, that the members who are reassigned as a result of all stations being closed are instead ‘lost to the community,” he said.

Redmond said the reassignment of Gardaí from small rural stations would give precedence to the policing of the larger urban areas where those Gardaí are now based, instead of the local communities they were being withdrawn from.

Earlier today the Garda Commissioner, Martin Callinan, said threats by Gardaí to undertake a round of informal ‘blue flu’ strikes were “not on”.

Gardaí are legally forbidden from undertaking industrial action, and have previously resorted to calling in sick in large numbers as a way of illustrating their opposition to various government measures.

Read: GRA rejects proposed cuts to garda pay and allowances

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Comments (125 Comments)

  • Please note that all the suggested cuts and changes in work practices under Croke Park 2 would only effect Garda rank, Sergeant rank and Inspector rank. The top boys keep what they have. Time to say enough.

    Reply
  • I don’t hear Shatter or his ilk tackling ministers pay though every other worker in Ireland seems fair game to have their income slashed. They will wheel Varadkar out next to drip feed the next round of bad news and I want to scream when Lucinda Creighton opens her yap. W***ers.

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  • How much did Joan Burton say was overspent in Social Welfare in 2011? €93 Million or thereabouts
    That would cover this 60 million shortfall they want to cut from Public Sector wages
    When Enda the rest of the boys in the Dail take significant cuts, and the boys & girls in The Seanad as well
    “The average senator received €32,695 in allowances last year – equal to nearly half of their basic salary.” Maybe when these guys have trouble making ends meet I might start to listen to them!

    How much does Commissioner Callinan get paid?
    How much has his pay been cut?
    Of course he thinks that AGSI and the GRA should stay in the talks, weekends, unsocial hours sure they are a thing from the dim and distant past for the ranks of Super & Upwards who by & large do a 9-5 Monday to Friday job
    The lads we see on the street, The Gardai, The Sergeants (to a lesser degree) these are the lads (and lassies) we need to be protecting
    Not the fat cats at the top

    DELIGHTED with the GRA’s decision this evening

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  • Best decision they have ever made, the government should be getting worried now. Time to stand together now.

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    • If they all unite and stand shoulder to shoulder, they will be able to get fairer conditions.
      They can’t keep going back to the pot when there’s nothing left, unfortunately they let the government get away with to many cuts already.

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    • You cannot spend money you don’t have.

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    • Ya cant live without money either!

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    • You don’t base wages solely on the cost of living. In most Euro-Zone countries, wages are normally based on benchmarking to other Euro-Zone countries, inflation, etc.

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    • Who said anything about benchmarking? Anyone who went into the public sector in the last 10 years did so when it was far from the best paid job out there. There where individuals on building sites earning anything a hell of a lot more than them. The private sector was on more than them, they went into the public sector for job security, and now the country has gone belly up, let’s have a bit of public sector bashing….

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    • Regonald must have been a bold boy at some stage!!

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    • Hey reggie are you harping on that you don’t have or we don’t….either you don’t have to rub my nose it!

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    • Public sector bashing? How can a country which is taking in €32bn in taxes, and then spending €€57bn – leaving bank debt aside – continue to pay the rates of pay in the Public Sector as a whole? Imagine a household with an income of €32k was spending €57k – while borrowing €400 a week at the same time? How long could it last?

      In the private sector there have been mass redundancies, pay freezes, and pay cuts. Words like “entitlement” and “increment” don’t exist. The laws of economics dictate the pay rates. Until these same laws apply to our public sector then this country is doomed economically.

      Yet we have politicians on outrageous salaries and expenses telling public sector workers that they must “take the pain” while not enduring it themselves. While asking private sector workers to make up the difference. While union officials on €100k+ condone the austerity by their silence on a Labour Party which is applying austerity measures that Thatcher would be scared of.

      It is truly surreal.

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    • What’s your salary like Fine Gael boy, are You getting paid to be a Fine Gael Lackey and come on to spread the Gospel according to Enda, spend a night out on patrol getting spat at, assaulted, stabbed and shot and then be asked to take further pay cuts. If we didn’t pay back for the loans that are not ours in the first place this austerity would be over, instead you and your kind will run this country into the ground and turn it into a poor country full of old people

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    • howya 04/02/13 #

      De Badger – we are spending 15bn a year more than we earn. And that number has nothing to do with the bank debt. The cuts must start at the top with the politicians.

      Reply
    • It’s all about choices then . U start at the tip and work your way down . Does the commissioner deserve to be on more than the US president ?? Does the Taoiseach deserve to be 3 rd highest salary in the eu ? choices my friend , unfortunately FG are looking after their own . Shame on them .

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    • @Eamonn I can tell you I know of certain frontline people who have had massive pay cuts more that private sector. Just give over I said anyone who went into public sector was for job security, they didn’t go into the private sector hence still have there jobs.

      What type of pay cut have you taken?

      In relation to the bank debt if we weren’t paying that we would not be overspending and that is a Fact!!

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    • De Badger – you’re not really good at grasping economics, are you? FWIW I despise this Government and the junior party within. But the reality is that bank debt, while precipitating the crisis, merely hastened its arrival. The car is are showing in the coalition. The Germans have told us to eff off. And we have a Taoiseach who is allowing us to be kicked around the place, all because he won’t take the hard decisions needed.

      Oh yeah he’ll punish Private Sector workers with additional taxes and levies. But Labour’s PS buddies? Interesting to see the unions only became outraged when public sector jobs were threatened.

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    • Eddie if we never had the bank debt we would still have the deficit. Let me ask you this: is it fair that the laws of economics apply to one group of workers and not the other? The average private sector wage is €600 – average public sector wage is €900. How long do you think that this country can keep borrowing €50m EVERY DAY?

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    • You can’t expect a police force to work for nothing…. its great saying at least ya have a job when you can’t afford to live pay your bills or even to drive to work!!

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    • As the old saying goes you can’t tax your way out of a recession and by looking at the businesses failing by the day and mass unemployment all over Europe how can continued austerity work. So the answer is to cut and cut and tax and then prosperity will return, it’s not working young people are leaving this country in there thousands and if we continue on this path there will not be nothing worth coming back for. This place is a clearing house for multinationals that throw us a few piecemeal jobs and pay feck all in tax, that’s the reason we are being closed down, on the one hand the Germans are furious with the IFSC (understandable – it cost them €100bn to bail out Dephra Bank) and also unhappy with the low Corporate Tax regime…..on the other their biggest financial institutions have no qualms whatsoever taking advantage of the current situation. It’s unbelievable what’s going on.

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    • @ Eammon
      Well €900 for a weeks pay for this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJyT8t47nqc&feature=youtube_gdata_player and this and i will tell you it happens all to often, and never is there any big ho ha about it. I wouldn’t do it for €1,900 a week.

      I also know of a person in the front line weekly wage €650 less Tax/P.R.S.I statutory deductions aka: Pension Levy/ USC of €296 leaving a massive take home pay of…… Wait for it €354

      They say the public sector pay is x but what amount goes back in Tax, nobody every gives that figure, That is all….

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    • Bet all front line public service workers would love to know where the 900e jobs can be got. Me smells another blue shirt spin doctor.

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    • Here here.

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    • Niall 05/02/13 #

      Eamon is talking sense ye bunch if softies. Bottom line is the public sector are over paid. Simple as that.

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    • When a government lose support of the security services, the end is nigh.

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  • Well done the GRA!! Make a stand once and for all!!

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  • Those that can afford it are not paying their fair share. Tax rate for people earning over 100,000 should go up 3% and people earning over 200,000 should pay 6% more. & TD’s income should be capped at 75,000 per year, everything included.

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  • Fair play to the GRA for pulling out of the croake park 2 talks doesn’t it say a lot for the state of the trade union movement in this country that the first union’s to pull are known to be conservative and don’t have the right to strike maybe now the so called big hitters will find their balls follow suit and start representing the wishes of their members

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  • Fair play to ye all lads. Don’t let Alan “I’m a Thunderbird” Shatter f@#k things up anymore…

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    • How many middle managers and paper shufflers such as in the HSE are there? Better to go after those jobsworths on 9-5 hours than Frontline workers.

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    • Again another example of not knowing what your talking about. Sergeants manage units and directs the paper keeps tabs on everything. Next rank up does courts and prosecuted as dpp. Next rank is superintendent who manage the district and writes to staff and is the controller for his area next rank manages division next rank manage reagion. Next rank manages over all specifics be in internal finance the other few of that rank look after state security and road traffic. Next rank which there are two advises and acts on behalf of commisoner an can run things but responsible overall to the commissioner who is responsible to government. Under rank of chief there is understaffing not over staffing.

      Any other nonsense joe? Seriously do you not feel a little stupid? Nobody knows everything but if you have no clue don’t comment.

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    • Thanks for debunking all the comments on frontline staff throughout this thread and for clarifying you’re not in favour of any paycuts for any public sector workers, none of who have lost their jobs unlike 300,000 private sector employees.

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    • Who says I’m public sector? Ohhh I get it as I know how the guards work… right. Actuall joe you helped that I read up in the garda siochana act today carries roles and responsibilities for all ranks muppet.

      You get debunked but you never debunk others.

      Troll. But if that’s your aim its seriously backfiring when you see the green verse red on this site. I’d go as far to say over 95% support even more.

      Now off to bed you need to be up early to get those mcmuffins ready ;)

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    • My comment was mirroring all comments on here about attacking frontline workers. You debunked them all.

      Nothing wrong with working in McDonalds. These cuts affect both private and public workers.

      Reply
  • If we don’t look after the gardai then who looks after us???

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  • About time somebody stood up and said NO MORE !!!

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  • I cannot understand how the rural TDs allowed Shatter to close the stations in the first place.As a Dub I understand only too well that urban policing is different and police on the beat is a priority.
    However, in the more rural areas the cop station is a source of comfort to the local community and probably adds more value. The cop manning the station is never going to cover much ground on foot patrol anyway.

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  • Good on them . Hope all the rest involved follow their actions and force this government to stand up for the ordinary workers of this country

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  • The flu virus will spread rapidly!

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  • John the gra have never attended the talks as its to do with cutting pay. Agsi were at it and walked out.

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  • Few weeks ago in a small village in Roscommon, there was a fight outside the pub with some windows broken……a lady phoned to report the incident to Gardai in other town but no reply. Just nothing….just lawless. Can’t wait for general election.

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  • Might encourage others to make a stand against the current injustices against Irish People….

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  • Did anybody else notice that Shatter seemed unconcerned regarding everybody else’s fears. In fact, he looked like he might have being enjoying it. That couldn’t be true, though could it?. How could an elected minister of justice feel so little empathy towards his subjects?. Could it be, that he is one of the two, or three per cent of people, that have no conscience?. Surely, it couldn’t be true. We only have one hundred thousand psychopaths in this country. Even though most of them are socially adept, they couldn’t possibly rise to powerful positions in politics, could they?. I’m not suggesting that he’s one of course, but I do wonder about the causes of corruption in politics, and life in general.

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    • Jason 05/02/13 #

      Ha spot on well said..

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    • mattoid 05/02/13 #

      Jon Ronson’s excellent book ‘The Psychopath Test’ is worth a read. As you rightly point out, a small but significant percentage of any population can be classed as psychopaths (no empathy, large ego etc.) but these people tend to gravitate towards positions of power in both politics and industry, and up to 10% of people in these positions could be classed as psychopaths.

      Reply
    • Jason 05/02/13 #

      Snakes in suits by Robert Hare is another. He’d be the authority on psychopaths. He developed the PCLR (psychopathy check list revised) tool which is used to rate the level the psychopath comes in at. Apparently some psychopathic tendencies are very desirable to perform certain jobs and unbelievably sometimes people are chosen for certain jobs intentionally after they’ve scored at a certain level on the PCLR checklist.

      Reply
  • The Government may be unwise to alienate Garda support when a time may be coming when the Government will need to use an Garda Siochana to cosh troublesome citizens who resent what is happening and engage in assertive protest and civil disobedience. It will be a tiny minority that would dare to engage in such protest but the Government has already perceived the threat as sufficient serious to have engaged in contingency planning for such an uncertain eventuality.

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  • RTE news Twitter account saying GRA have pulled out of talks.

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  • Maybe now they will stand shoulder to shoulder with the rest of the workforce instead of shoulder to shoulder against them . Protest protest protest , block roads , shut ports what the hell are we waiting for .

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  • In Co. Mayo, Enda Kenny”s home county the government need the gardai to protect Shells interest against the shell to sea protesters. That protection shouuld be withdrawn if their pay is cut . The country isn’t going to gain anything from the oil and gas anyway because FF gave it way.

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  • Why is the journal using a pic of a Garda’s funeral for this article ??????

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  • dominic 05/02/13 #

    Thank you GRA.High time the wealthy exec’s,the clever profiteers,those material elite unaffected by this nation’s crisis pulled their weight and shed some excess fat.

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  • Legally forbidden from taken industrial action. What a joke I’m sure they signed a contract stating this which also would have stated all the other terms and conditions of their employment ie their pay scale and working hours. If the government expect them to except changes to every aspect of their working agreements why should they honour their commitment to no industrial action. Absolutely disgraceful the way the front line is being hit. Commissioner might I suggest you take a hit in your pocket how’s about we start with your pension?? If the members of the government need to make claw backs of state funds why not look a lot closer to home and make significant cuts to their own salaries and increase their working hours. Who is going to oversee this happening???

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  • The same trolls on here day in, day out moaning about the Gardaí and the pay etc. They are in my estimation 1- anti authority, 2-criminals or 3- keyboard warriors. I wonder have they dealt with spit, piss, poo,vomit or blood on a daily basis, threatened with knives, put on a traffic point for hours on end getting pissed on, ending up in hospital after being rammed by a stolen bmw x5 while in a garda ford fiesta. Or going into hospitals to deal with dead babies or people, or breaking in doors cos there’s a woman or child getting battered.. The only ones that know what goes on are the mules and banners. To the rest of ye imbeciles, would ye like us to work for washers and food stamps?

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  • If a pay cut comes, it should be across the board,
    3 percentage for those under100.000€ a year
    6 percent for the rest
    And nights and weekends should continue at present rates
    All other allowances should be scrapped and added to basic pay if justified,
    We need to see clearly what is being payed , real accountability , real transparency,

    Reply
  • What’s the point in staying in the talks when it doesn’t look like there is any room for discussion anyway! I can’t see why it always turns into public vs private a low paid worker is a low paid worker, cuts might seem more acceptable to people if they are seen to start at the top and filter down in some sort of equitable manner!

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  • There is no such thing as job security anymore . That day is gone

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  • Why dont the join the Army and Police forces together !!! like in some European countries !!!……..there be massive savings in streamline both orgs to fit say over a 5 Year plan !!!

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  • Beyond cynical to use an iconic photo of Garda at a funeral with this article.

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    • Hi Vincent – the photo was only used in an abstract sense to illustrate a large number of Gardaí. Obviously the photo is from the funeral last week, but I made a point of choosing a photo where there were no visible shots of a church, hearse, other mourners and so on so that only a large number of Gardaí would be seen.

      If people are upset by the choice of photo I’m happy to change it – perhaps users might give me a red thumb if they’re unhappy and green if they’re not?

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    • The Gardai are looking for a suspect descbibed as good looking ,sexy ,good in bed and………..Mr Shatter……….. did you say that or willy joking

      Reply
  • Bill66 05/02/13 #

    I am not a troll just an ordinary citizen is pissed off with the service I receive from the guards.
    However ye are only fooling yourselves in thinking that ye can come out of this with no cuts in salary.
    Ye have no union , no right to strike, your td are hamstrung by the troika so sorry lads Yere fecked.

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    • @bill

      I think you’ll find that if the guards implement a work to rule, this country will grind to a halt very quickly. See what kind of service you get then.

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    • No cuts??? Are you for real? You need to get your head screwed on pal, we’ve taken cuts like everyone else and taxed to the hilt to boot. I make 390 euro for a 58 hour week, I’ll let you work out what that amounts to…

      This isn’t ordinary cuts, this is an attack on our pay, our working hours and our rest days(which you must agree we are entitled to?) which they want to be able to cancel on a whim… And how can we e expected to stand by and let that happen?

      Reply
  • DesBod 05/02/13 #

    I won’t say anything about the state not being able to afford the current level if public sector pay, pensions and allowances, because apparently that would make me a troll.
    As a result, ill just agree with all the union types on here, in the hope of avoiding being branded a troll for having a different opinion.

    Reply
  • GRA can reject what they like. It is nothing to do with any government. This country is broke with a $16 billion YEARLY overspend. It has to stop somewhere. It is only a matter of time before all pay will be cut as IMF turn of the money tap.

    Reply
    • Well we should do what greece has done. Invite the chancellor over tell her we want a better deal or NOT paying. Hold her hand and Invite her to stare into the abyss. Thing is we might go down but we will take the entire eurozone with us.

      Reply
    • then shatter and the rest of the government can start with their own salaries, pensions, expenses and free bee

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    • your full of shite. time to march on dail eireann and break every window in it. then march on alan shatters and enda kennys private residences.

      Reply
    • This is the unfortunate reality. There is a huge danger that one day money for PS and SW could stop. And this country will implode. I really fear for it.

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    • Their pay will be cut. Let them go on blue flu or work to rule. By the time they realise that the money is simply not there, they will have isolated the public as well.

      Reply
    • Good man joe . Just wondering were u ever in bother with the Gardai in the past by any chance ???? Or is trolling just a hobby !?

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    • david duignan you seem like trouble for the voting gardai here your statement is in need of vetting by them

      Reply
    • It’s not just the country that’s broke, the workers are broke as well. Despite all the huffing and puffing over the years, nothing has been done to reduce the costs of mortgages on the workers, which for those of us of a generation is where a fair chunk of our income goes, both private and public sector workers.

      I cannot quite remember the context now, but I recall a decision in the Dail about 3 1)2 years ago, where some charge or other was being pushed through. The argument was that the cost of living was after dropping, which it had for a short while. At the time, I recall that a litre of petrol was in the region of €1.25. Now that the cost of living has sky-rocketed, where is the announcement cutting excise somewhere to give us a chance.

      As far as I can see, the government is now taking what ordinary workers, both private and public are paying what they can afford to give. Any more and it means the the government will be robbing themselves, e.g., the property tax will be paid at the expense of the TV license or car tax. Workers have to retain the right and ability to pay their way. Implementing these savage cuts envisaged by the government, on top of all the other savage cuts imposed over the last 6 years, on people who entered into financial obligations on the understanding that they had the good pensionable job as sold to them by the government, is unfair, inequitable and unsustainable.

      Reply
    • The country ain’t broke. The money is being spent poorly. If the country was broke the politicians would lead by example and take cuts themselves. The IMF have nothing to do with these cuts. The govt are goin after the easy targets as usual. The govt aren’t gonna make decisions that will affect themselves nor are the govt advisers who are highly paid civil servants

      Reply
    • Load of shite again joe

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    • Dave the country has an annual deficit of €17bn – some say €25bn) leaving bank debt aside. That clearly can be defined as broke.

      Reply
  • A few well placed P45′s for any Gardai falsely claiming sick leave, should do the trick.
    We cannot tolerate being held to ransom, discipline and order has to be implemented, Gardai have the option to leave and try their hand in the private sector.

    Of course they don’t like the prospect of cuts to allowances and premium payments, however they are very well paid if not overpaid, and have eroded their rosters and patrol hours over the years.

    This economic collapse must be used to get things back into balance and perspective, they are just police after all.

    Reply
    • Overpaid?

      Have u ever seen a rank and file Garda’s payslip? If u did u wouldn’t be Lang in withdrawn that remark.
      Average pay bloated when senior managements pay is factored in.. And they won’t be affected by any cuts..

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    • Eroded rosters??? What facts to base this remark on? 60 hours working over 6 days… Comparable to the average 39 hour week

      Your comments have no basis in fact.

      Makes you sound like a troll.. That is all.

      Reply
    • Interesting comments indeed. Here a few more for you. If you cannot pay a bill or run up a large debt is it illegal? No? Well it is for a Garda, its in the Garda code of conduct and is a prosecutable and sackable offence.

      Gardai are well paid and overpaid according to you. Well here is a bit of news for you. Did you know that quite a lot of Gardai and other fronline emergency service staff qualify for Family Income Supplement and medical cards. That means that by the governments own standards they are low paid workers.

      They are just police after all? If someone breaks into you house or attacks you or a member of your family and a Garda stands between you and your attacker to risk his/her life to protect you would you still be saying they are just police.

      Reply
    • The pay i refer to use using international benchmarks, at the lowest entry level before any increments and without any allowances the salary starts at ~30k + rent allowance so ~35k.

      The increments then kick in increasing to 38k + rent (42k) after 5 yrs, then up to 42k + rent(47k) after 11yrs.

      Factor in the overtime, and anti-social allowance, and all the rest. Allowances for every rank, for every discipline etc. And these figures will be the minimum.

      Compare this to the average industrial wage / international benchmarks for police forces. Then compare to software developers / IT ~ 36k without increments, without allowances.
      Once all factored in, then it is reasonable to say they are well paid.

      Yes I agree the higher salary levels at the top of the Gardai will distort the average, several member claimed over 65k in allowances last year alone.

      Just who are you comparing salary levels with and how are you determining whether well paid or not?

      Overtime etc is auxiliary, to try and spin it as being core pay does not make sense, it is additional work required over normal hours. Cutting it back is not cutting pay.

      Reply
  • Those buytolets need monthly top ups.

    Reply
  • Come in, come in…. You’ll catch your death of cold.

    Reply
  • The Gardai have done themselves a disservice by walking away so early from the talks. They will get done on overtime and allowances now. They should have laid down their pre-conditions and then talked on what they were willing to compromise on.

    Reply

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