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Dublin: 10 °C Wednesday 22 May, 2013

Garda body lashes out at SIPTU comments on pay deal

The Garda Representative Association rubbishes Patricia King’s claims that Gardaí could have secured a ‘side deal’.

GRA president John Parker says it is disingenuous to claim Gardaí were part of the Croke Park 2 talks.
GRA president John Parker says it is disingenuous to claim Gardaí were part of the Croke Park 2 talks.
Image: Sasko Lazarov/Photocall Ireland

THE GARDA REPRESENTATIVE ASSOCIATION has criticised remarks by SIPTU vice-president Patricia King, over the association’s decision to leave the discussions on the ‘Croke Park 2′ public pay deal.

King told RTÉ’s News at One that Garda bodies could have been treated similarly to prison officers and firefighters – who are reported to have secured sector-specific agreements parallel to the Croke Park proposals – if they had not withdrawn from the talks.

King said firefighters were an example of a group who had undergone massive internal restructuring to cut down on spending, and of whom it would be unfair to ask for more financial contributions.

“Even if you take the Gardaí, they had done substantial roster changes,” King said, contending that Gardai could have achieved a similar sectoral-specific deal if they had engaged in the talks.

It was reported this morning that firefighters and prison officers had negotiated their own deals, parallel to those of Croke Park 2, under which Sunday premiums and twilight allowances would be retained, in exchange for concession on lower overtime rates.

This evening the Garda Representative Association condemned King’s assertions, outlining that Garda unions – which are not permitted to join the Irish Congress of Trade Unions, with whom the talks are held – were not allowed to partake in the negotiations.

“The previous government was prepared to negotiate the Transformation Agenda of the original Croke Park Deal directly with us, providing huge savings through efficiencies and new rostering arrangements,” GRA president John Parker said this evening.

Trade unions, however, have always insisted on excluding Gardaí from negotiations on pay. [...] Let’s put this notion to rest: the Gardaí were never invited into the main talks and have been excluded, since the formation of the State, from negotiations on matters of Garda pay.

Parker said it was therefore impossible for Gardaí to engage constructively in the talks and look to negotiate their own sectoral agreements, as they were never given the platform to offer input. “It is disingenuous of Government and Trade Unions to suggest otherwise,” he said.

He added that Garda resources meant arrangements of the style reported to have been offered to prison officers and firefighters would not be feasible anyway.

While it may have been deemed possible to remove one fire officer from a vehicle for a Sunday shift, so that their premium pay could be redistributed to the other staff on duty, Garda resources made it impossible to do likewise.

“We don’t have a lot of these facilities,” he said. “We end up having two or three Gardaí working in some districts sometimes.”

Parker said Gardaí had made many sacrifices under the original Croke Park reforms and felt they were now being sidelined by having the original Croke Park deal removed and replaced with one they had no chance to have input in.

“Gardaí have made sacrifices in their pay and working conditions, and are now singled out for unfair treatment. Can anyone be surprised that gardaí feel betrayed, angry and disillusioned?”

The GRA stopped attending the negotiations – where they were held in a separate room and given occasional briefings of the negotiations taking place next-door – at the beginning of February.

Read: Public workers have 18 months to retire on ‘peak’ pay

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Comments (111 Comments)

  • how is this fair?

    • It’s an attempt to divide and conquer and the SIPTU reps are dancing like puppets to it. If the prison guards go along with this and leave the Gardaí out to dry it will drive quite a wedge between the two organisations. And while this might be good for the governments negotiation strategy it will not be good for the justice system.

    • Prison Officers, 6 weeks training an they’re getting this preferential treatment !!!!
      Highest payed unskilled workers in the country, bloody disgrace

    • That’s a little unfair Paul. It’s one of the worst jobs out there. Prisons are horrible places to work.

    • Truth is prisoners are out of there cells for a few hours a day, the officers then (not to put to fine a point on it) sit on there arses for the rest of their shift..
      They DON’T deserve a separate deal, no one does….

    • paul doyle what makes you an authority on prison officers and the job they do?

    • I’ve worked in prisons in an educational capacity so I’ve seen first hand the hours they do..

    • I’d like to see you walk a landing on your own with 40 or 50 lags in your face. You would just shit yourself and cry yourself out the door. If it’s such an overpaid job that requires f all training, why don’t you sign up for it.

    • Don’t allow them to turn us on one another. Remember the firefighters or prison offices have not accepted this deal. I am DFB & I will not be accepting it & leaving the rest of the frontline swinging. Have some faith, this is what they want! Already ur abusing prison officers!! Hold the horses!!! They’re playing the game! Don’t fall for it hook line n sinker!!

    • An educational capacity? So you probably didn’t have guys trying to spit blood at you or waiting for you to turn your back to get a dig in. You probably think they are mostly misunderstood souls that need a few big hugs.

      The truth is that prisons are horrible places. The only time you could sit on your arse would be during the night, and that’s assuming some junkie isn’t freaking out for is methadone.

    • Get your facts right. 13 weeks in Training college and 2 more years back and forth doing a College course. And after that you are still on probation for another year. So if you are going to spout shit take a look in the mirror.

    • @Paul Doyle, you are a moron. Get your facts right before posting your verbal slurry.

    • Think your believing POA propaganda to much, irish prisons are relatively safe, They are the highest paid prison workers in the world and are not irreplaceable as they seem to think… The Army came close to assuming operational control in ’04… An they could do just as good a job.

    • i really cant believe that paul doyle got so many likes from such a stupid comment. thruth is paul if youve worked there in ‘an eduacational capacity’ you know damn all about what goes on outside the cushy school. only yesterday some little tramp stood three feet from me with a kettle of boiling water threatening to throw it at me cauz i told him he was being transferred. i run a wing with 140 prisoners with only 7 staff. FACT!!!!. you wont see that anywhere cauz the truth never gets out. our job is difficult, demanding, dangerous and most of all thankless. mede even more difficul with trumped up ungrateful yokes like you badmouthing us without knowing anything of what we do. like most people on these things they are ill informed know it alls.

    • Good man Paul you really are full of shit tonight, what illumination you bring to this chat. “Highest paid in the world”, where did you pull that out of? And the army were never in the jails in 04 you fool it was the guards in 88. If you are gonna keep spouting rubbish at least try to get some of the facts right. It’s nice to know you were involved with educating our prisoners, it shows in your spelling errors how qualified you are.

    • Well said Stephen. As for Paul, I’d highly doubt he worked any job in ‘an educational capacity’. Anyone who says “to” instead of “too”, writes “irish prisons” instead of “Irish prisons” or puts a capital letter after a comma is hardly the brightest tool in the shed. Also, to condemn and insult an entire group of people, who work in a clearly stressful and dangerous environment, is incredibly unfair and ignorant. Tut tut I say.

    • Irish prisons relatively safe! Ha that makes me laugh!!!

    • Respect! It’s a job I know I couldn’t do!

    • Ha ha Mick an over qualified ex-lag!

    • I have held my powder till now as a serving prison officer, if we accept this they will come back and mutilate us in 2-3 years, we have to stand together and be a united force, I know the mandarins in Merrion square think they know it all but the members on the floor want to stand with the guards and nurses cos united we are stronger than any government

  • Thr gardai are not on their own here, they want to screw over the nurses as well. It’s about numbers they are picking off the smaller groups but don’t forget lads they will come back at you again and if you sell out now you will be on ur own in future

  • Non union status, sidelined from any talks/negotiations, threat of enforced reductions through legislation, other unions enabled to make deals on behalf of their members after the official offer is made. Then the other unions become the mouthpiece of the labour party and government to seemingly scold the GRA and AGSI. The Garda Siochana, a career where you can put your life on the line in to defend the state that treats you as a second class citizen. I’m glad the embargo is in place on Garda recruitment at this stage as this is not a vocation I would encourage any person to engage in, unless things change massively and if you know me you know how much it pains me to say that.

  • The prisoner officers are one of the worst managed areas of the PS. How is it fair that they secured a side deal?

    And why is a union rep throwing mud at the Gardai? What’s her agenda? Something stinks.

    • Divide and conquer comes to mind…

    • Because the prison service USED to be one of the worst managed areas, and have been getting their house in order long before croke park 1.

    • Really? What reforms have they implemented?

    • mcdowell screwed the prison officers in 2005. it was his agenda from the day he came into justice to screw them. a deal was shoved down their throats that changed an awful lot about the job. new rosters, less staff, more prisoners, annualized hours at a lower rate. prison officers have alraedy taken massive cuts when nobody else did. long before croke park but nobody cared cauz they were tackled on their own. im not saying that they deserve a better deal or anything like it but the staff havent negotiated this and havent even voted on it yet. nothing to say that they will even vote yes with a recommendation or not. dont comment on something you obviously know nothing about. and the fact is despite this deal they are far from finished with cuts in the prison service. god forbid they would take anything off the prisoners.

  • Sure aren’t they giving the Gardai 5 Fiat vans to act as ‘mobile garda stations’, this is to make up for the closure of 140 stations. What more do they want..?

  • This just highlights that this isn’t a fair deal for all concerned as if the reports are true each sector is being treated different. This is the attempt to split the 24/7 alliance by offering different terms to different sectors.

  • Siptu stirring it up, doing a bit of Labours dirty work eh?
    Btw the siptu VP doesn’t seem to understand union laws in Ireland.
    Pay truffles and you get pigs!

  • The GRA should bring a case to be recognised as a trade union. It is obvious that they have been penalised in this case. Grow some balls GRA this should have been done 30 years ago.

    • The GRA have bought a case to the Supreme Court seeking Union status, but were denied! It’s now at the European Court! It just shows the ignorance of the Government towards the Gardai!

  • Government are a shower of a××holes!!!! Gardai, stand up together and fight your case, do not give up. Ye will win.

  • Jack o Connor is a labour person inv paid In excess of €300,000 .
    A % of all SIPTU union fees goes directly to the Labour Party !
    Guess who Jack O Connor & co are working directly for ! !
    I hope the gardai don’t give in , because the government are going to look after Fire officers and prison service . They know that they can’t survive without them and they gonna blackmail the gardai with this ! ! !

  • It’s all divide and conquer, as a serving prison officer I stand with all my colleagues in the alliance, I’m next for the chop in 2-3 years.
    Our strength is our unity the feeling on the floor is we stand united and stuff their divisive deal

  • SIPTU and the Labour party are one and the same.Gilmore and Rabbite were members up till they got into power.

  • United we stand, divided we fall…. #24/7 alliance

  • Siptu selling the ambulance service and paramedics down the river as per usual….

  • On a lighter more. Anyone know where Reggie is today? I would have expect a comment from him.

    • He’s on another thread bitching about public sector pensions… The usual copying and pasting Indo articles….

      …. Or he could be off in a dark room rubbing hot oil onto Harry price..

      ;)

      All in the best possible taste, of course.

    • Pablo 01/03/13 #

      He’s in Tajikistan, comparing the price of tangerines to the price of oranges. Either that or his flight was delayed from Athens.

  • This is all about saving SIPTU and IMPACT these two unions control the block vote in Congress both have become nothing more than puppets for government SIPTU were losing members in their droves in the firefighters section and elsewhere Feedback from the IMPACT branches was very anti this deal strategy now is to break the front line alliance and keep SIPTU and IMPACT in control this is a very dangerous strategy to play in my present climate members are a lot more aware now of what is going on
    It is clear now the government are on the rocks if the workers stand together and vote No this deal will fall apart and the workers will win for a change

  • Are SIPTU now officially a government department? This stinks of a union leadership that has been bought and paid for.

  • smudge 01/03/13 #

    Any word on the into( teachers), wonder if there voting for or against, Gardai hang in there, there just trying to divide and conquer but it won’t happen

  • The POA have yet to recommend acceptance or rejection of this deal.

  • SIPTU sells out the fire fighters then the Government sells out SIPTU. How can the best deal the union can get on a Tuesday be changed for some workers on the Friday.

  • Pablo 01/03/13 #

    We’ve already had Seamus Murphy from the frontline alliance attacking Impact workers on the radio yesterday, now frontline workers against frontline workers. Whats the common denominator in my sentence above? Workers. Workers with families and lives to live. Don’t let them split the cause before the votes even happen.

  • The prison officers and firemen can legally strike. My understanding is that if they do the government will have to go to the EU for permission to deploy the armed forces in a civilian capacity to replace the organisations.

    This is not the case for the Gardaí as they cannot legally strike. Therefore a dramatic shortage of numbers (blue flu) could be considered an unexpected emergency situation warranting the use of the armed forces to supplement the civilian forces.

  • With the surname ledden , one can only guess ! ! !

  • It’s pretty obvious that the people representing the Garda at the talks weren’t up to the task. The government might be a*****es but that doesn’t alter the fact that this money is going to be taken from the public sector wage bill because the Troika are giving the orders. It’s up to your union to get you the best deal and the Garda representatives have failed their members here.

    • How can they represent Gardaí when they’re shoved into a side room, only fed snippets then presented with stuff negotiated by the big boys? Negotiation would imply that both sides get a chance to influence the outcome.

    • There are no Garda Unions. They are not allowed. Gardaí have representative bodies who were not invited to nor permitted to engage with the main negotiations.

    • The Prison Officers have no union but they got a deal. As for being pushed into rooms and not being consulted, you are only hearing that story from the clowns who messed up the deal. You can boo-hoo all you want but that doesn’t change the fact that the Garda could have got a deal but they f***ed it up. This time they can’t blame the government but they still will. Coming clean is not something you associate with the Gardai anyway.

    • The Poa have sold their souls to siptu, what a shame

    • Prison officers association is associated with the ICTU

    • Hmmmmm!?! Wonder is John Fagan getting caught on his phone this morning by the Garda Traffic Corps or him getting knocked back at the gates to Templemore years ago that has him so bitter towards the Gardai!?!

    • John, Gardaí are not permitted to be represented at the talks. They are excluded, not consulted, ignored & disrespected by being put in a separate room to wait until they are informed of what the unions & govt are imposing upon them.

      Did you not see that in the article above it are you just trolling through comments at the bottom???

    • John you are wrong, the Prison Officers Association us a fully fledged union with full affiliation to ICTU, the GRA & AGSI are not and never have been allowed to affiliate to ICTU.

      Both AGSI & GRA were kept outside all negotiations, that’s a fact.

      You obviously ave an axe to grind with Gardaí going by your last line, which puts your opinions into perspective really.

      You really shouldn’t comment on what you know nothing about, you eventually wind up showing yourself up, just like now.

    • @Nuffsaid(who I think has the hots for me). I have nothing against the Gardai and have nothing but respect for them. If you read my comments you would have got this. I am saying that they have been let down by their representatives who have bordered on militant. I agree that they should have their pay kept intact, but this was their chance to ensure that and they messed it up. That’s not my opinion, just fact. P.S. I have never applied for the police force and I don’t break any sort of law, so don’t make assumptions about someone who you don’t know. I’m not the one hiding behind a Batman picture.

    • John the POA is a union, fully affiliated to the ICTU.

      They have all the rights and options available to them as a result.

      The GRA & AGSI have never been included in pay talks and are not unions.

      You should stop commenting on subjects you clearly know very little about as you’ll eventually show yourself up just like now.

      You also seem to have a serious axe to grind with Gardaí, which puts your opinions into perspective really.

    • The Prison Officers can strike, so they’re listened to far more than the GRA. If you’ve proof that the GRA are lying about not being allowed to negotiate then please provide it.

    • Strange John, you mad plenty if assumptions in previous posts…..

      1. That Gardai were in negotiations.
      2. That the prison officers association is not a union
      3. That Gardai have a union
      4. That the leaders are the only militant ones

      You also claim to have respect for them after claiming that ” coming clean is not something you associate with Gardaí”

      Give it over John, you’ve been badly exposed here

    • So are you claiming that they are all militant? I do respect the Gardai but I also have the balls to criticise them. Can you say the same?

    • Ah John, take it easy now! Don’t misunderstand my irritation for you as affection! The Gardai are currently forbidden from being part if a recognised trade union & in the current situation they find themselves in, ie. Aggressively managed Pay-”Talks”, now is not the time to self-assess their representative bodies! As previous commenters above have said, their case is due to be heard by the Supreme Court (and likely the European Court for Human Rights if/when that fails) so steps are being taken to improve their lot!! But you passing comment that the Gardai have somehow messed up at not organising their own deal or improving their lot when they can’t even get in the main room makes no sense at all! Best call it a day now fella!

    • I’m not the only one claiming they messed up or have you forgotten what this story was about.

    • So…. Mr Fagan…You are the multi persona man…..Regionald yesterday and I’ve lost track of the other names you post yourself as… Any chance that you would have the guts to stand up and say exactly who and what you are??? You are so Anti public service, you may as well post that as your name. Listening to the stuff you spout is putting me off reading the comments in the journal in case I come across a post of yours,

    • Well done Sherlock, except;
      (1) I’m not Reg because I’ve actually argued with him,
      (2) I work in the public service;
      (3) That picture is me in all my glory, as people who frequent this forum will tell you.
      So that means I do have the balls to expose myself(not literally, you understand). Thanks for the laugh anyway and I look forward to your apology. Yours sincerely, John Fagan.

    • A veiled accusation of widespread corruption, is that what qualifies as respect???

      I’d hate to disrespect if so……..

      You hadn’t even the balls to say what you really meant lad.

      Stop making a fool of yourself.

    • B 01/03/13 #

      Prisoners officers do have a union

    • Don’t be putting words in my mouth and don’t call me lad. You need to go off and watch The Bill before you have a coronary. Your reaction to criticism is way over the top. At least I don’t have to live with you.

    • @ John Fagan. Firstly John your comment that ‘coming clean is something you would associate with the Gardai anyway’ is something you might perhaps like to elaborate upon if it is the case that, as you claim, you have no grievance with AGS. Secondly you do not seem to understand that neither the GRA nor AGSI had any influence whatsoever over the outcome of these talks, even if they wanted to. Even SIPTU themselves have conceded that. What was being asked of Gardai during these talks was totally unreasonable and if you listened to, in particular, John Redmond of AGSI you would understand further that it was made clear to them in no uncertain terms that there was no room for manoeuvre.

    • That’s the problem, people like you will believe the Gardai, no matter what.(that’s for both questions, Lee. Do you need a diagram).

    • Looking at this thread is fascinating. Mr. Fagans obsession with abuse is quite singular. He cares not that his latest argument contradicts an earlier one, all he wishes to do is hang out an opinion and heap abuse, insult and venom on anyone that this takes issue. Probably still lives with his parents, god help them.

    • But the prison officers can strike! Gardai can’t!

    • I live in my house with my wife and three kids.

  • Little Jim , ” pay truffles and you get pigs” . what is that supposed to mean. It sounds grandiose enough, ut what does it intend to convey ? Pigs, truffles, pay ? Looney. Pigs only smell out truffles. Are you for real ?

  • What planet are Gardai living on. Their leaders in the union have let them down badly and they have lost public support. Maybe they never had it in the first place. Whingers

  • The garda get paid too much for too little