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Dublin: 16 °C Thursday 20 June, 2013

Government “cannot accept” current version of proposed abortion law

James Reilly says there are difficulties in Clare Daly’s Bill, but affirms the government’s intention to follow the ECHR ruling.

MINISTER FOR HEALTH James Reilly has affirmed that the government will vote against draft legislation permitting abortion in limited circumstances, saying the coalition parties “cannot accept” the legislation as it stands.

Speaking in the Dáil this evening, Reilly accepted that legislating to allow for the outcome of the ‘X Case’ in 1992 was a “long overdue responsibility”, but affirmed that the current government intended to fulfil the need.

“While the Bill as drafted here tonight goes some way to address the A, B and C judgment, the government is clear that in its current form it cannot be accepted because it is lacking in some legal respects,” he said.

Reilly affirmed that the report of the expert group appointed to examine that judgment, handed down by the European Court of Human Rights in 2010, would be used as the basis for the government’s proposed legislation.

“The government is moving to deal with the issue – the expert group is clear on the need to deal with the very complex issues involved.”

“This group will be reporting in the next couple of months and it doesn’t make sense to pre-empt their advice.

Reilly said the government would “take the correct action based on the best advice available to us as a government, to ensure that no woman’s life is ever placed in danger.”

Considerable complexities

The subject of abortion was one on which which most Irish people had an opinion, the minister added, “despite the many considerable complexities involved.”

“We will have time to consider the many technical issues involved, but to put it first in human terms, we need to take necessary action to protect the lives of women.”

Reilly’s comments came after Socialist Party TD Clare Daly, who tabled the Bill, had appealed to the government to support the Bill when a vote was called tomorrow afternoon.

“We know the expert group was delayed in being established, we know they’re not going to issue any findings until July of this year, and in effect with the recess and all of the other schedules, what it would mean is anything they would come forward with… it would be a full year before it would see the light of day,” Daly had said.

Her ULA colleague Joan Collins, said the government did not need to vote against the legislation even though it was still awaiting the finding of the expert group.

“They should not hide behind the minister’s expert group, causing further delays in legislation for vulnerable people.”

In an emotional speech, Mick Wallace commented that the legislation was “20 years too late” and broke down into tears while reading an email from a woman who had previously had an abortion.

“What has this male-dominated parliament done to put an end to the urge of men to control women’s bodies?”, he asked.

Live: Dáil debates bill allowing limited access to abortion

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Comments (47 Comments)

  • For those with short memories, here’s a 2010 Labour leaflet calling for legislation – http://irishelectionliterature.wordpress.com/2011/06/20/its-time-to-legislate-for-the-x-case-leaflet-from-labour-2010/

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  • Unbelievable. They’re trying to implement crushing austerity policies so fast that they can’t even get their stories straight on the details, but when it comes to the welfare of pregnant women they can wait on their ‘expert group’. Did they need the opinions of the experts before they paid unsecured bondholders? No. Did they need the opinion of experts before they had trhe blackmail clause inserted in the treaty? No. They can absolutely support this tomorrow if they want instead of procrastinating.

    Next time round Clare, address these lowlifes in German. It seems to be the only language they pay attention to.

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    • Completely agree who needs a right wing party when we have the labour party. Just another shade of blue shirts I cannot believe I ever allowed myself to vote labour even if it was only a preference vote I will never vote for them again. Sp or ula or a spoilt vote in future

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    • Spot on tootrue

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    • Exactly too true!!!!!!!!!!! And one more !

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    • Abortion legislation is a bit more complicated than changing the income tax rate. It’s not simply a matter of writing down the circumstances abortion is allowed and making it law. It has to also introduce mechanisms to authorise the abortion and to protect the doctors who perform it. It has to be airtight because you can bet it will face a constitutional challenge very soon after it’s passed.

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    • Sean, if we were having this conversation 20 years ago just after the x case I would agree with you. If we were even having this conversation 6 months after the ECJ ruling in 2010 I’d agree with you too. But we’ve just seen a fiscal compact treaty written, signed, presented to our AG, and a decision made on whether or not it required a referendum in a matter of a couple of months. We’ve just witnessed sean sherlock sign the SOPA act BEFORE he asked for a discussion on it. Theres absolutely no reason that something could not be ready to go right now. And when was a government obliged to follow the advice of an expert group anyways. The dogs in the street know that they’ll only implement the findings of this group if it tells them what they want to hear.

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    • I agree with Sean Beag on this. Much as I want to see this legislation enacted it has to be absolutely airtight, the SPUCS of this world are going to be all over it like a rash trying to find a loophole. Rushed legislation leads to messy constitutional challenges and the last thing any woman facing a crisis pregnancy needs is a High Court battle. The expert group is deciding on the wording of the legislation. I trust Sean Ryan to get that right over any TD.

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    • Sorry Too Trueleft, it’s great to be passionate about this, but to say that ‘when it comes to the welfare of pregnant women…’ well, you might want to check what the World Health Organisation and the U.N. say about Ireland’s record on this, it’s probably the only thing we’ve got a good record at these days. At the same time, if a woman’s life is at risk, I completely agree it’s farcical to have to travel abroad. But remember also that the Labour party are just scrambling to ‘connect’ with their supporters (what’s left of them) on issues that don’t involve tax, all the while hiding in the corner like a scolded child while Enda, James Reilly, Big Phil, Alan Shatter and Brian ‘Specsavers’ Hayes trample over all of us, it’s just populist posturing

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    • There is no SOPA Act. Sean Sherlock enacted a Statutory Instrument for injunctions. It’s not complicated either, which is one of the problems with it. You can have good legislation or you can have fast legislation, not both. Your two examples prove that.

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    • @YRHH. Our record is so good because we export the problem to the UK

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  • Prefer they took expert advise and made sure it was fine before jumping the gun or backing particular proposals that are not fully addressing the problem

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  • A wee bit OTT Thomas , skin up sit back and chill !!!

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  • Delaying tactic we will be waiting another 20 years if labour tds have any principles left they will cross the floor and vote in favour. Of course they don’t so they won’t. Bas***ds each and every one shame on them.

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  • @aodhan I would like to see you carry a foetus for 9 months knowing that it isn’t going to survive birth. Women shouldn’t have to go to England for this service . As for labour just another promise they are going back on. This needs to be dealt with NOW……

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    • Read the bill! Or an article about it. The bill relates to instances where the mother has medical issues, not the baby

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    • Because being forced to carry a foetus with unsurviveable abnormalities to term would not have a detrimental effect on the physical and mental health of the woman? Did you even listen to Mick Wallace tonight?

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    • The bill is for the circumstances outlined in the X case judgement; a real and substantial risk to the life, as distinct from the health, of the mother

      Did you even read the bill? Mick Wallace is not the yardstick of relevance

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    • Including mental health and the document he read out sounded like it came from a desperate woman to me. It’s sad, Chuck, that your ingrained views seem to have stripped you of your empathy. You must be so pleased you can never walk a mile in her shoes.

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  • What a cop out, just like everything else this shower do

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  • I would recommend reading a book ‘defiant birth’ the stories of many women who continued with their pregnancies even though they knew that their baby had an abnormality. The book is full of life not death, of moments of joy in the often short lived lives of their child. There is another side to this terrible situation that some couples face.

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  • Maybe Mick Wallace should’ve read an email from one of the children involved in abortion…

    Oh… Wait…

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    • The point of the document Mick Wallace read out was that it was from a woman whose foetus had an unsurviveable abnormality. Her options were to carry to term knowing it had no chance of survival or travel for abortion. I suggest you listen to Mick Wallace’s speech before posting your ill thought out little rant.

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    • Yes, also interesting to note that the women standing outside the Dáil with signs saying “I regret my abortion” were all but ignored.

      In fact the group http://www.womenhurt.ie was actually criticised by the National Women’s Council of Ireland last year for existing.

      The attempt by the pro-choice side to monopolise opinion on this issue and silence women who regret their abortions is alarming.

      Irish women and babies deserve, at the very least, an honest debate about the reality of abortion.

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  • You know I’m quiet sick of every government debating this but doing nothing about it. It’s time this country STOP EXPORTING it’s problems. Abortion should be legal in this country an the WOMAN’S RIGHT to decide.

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  • This is a quote from Part 1 of the Labour Party constitution. Available online.
    “The Labour Party rejects the use of force, intimidation and violence as a means of achieving political aims in a democratic society.” They contravene that aspiration in this case, I believe.

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  • Abortion is wrong in any context! Medical opinion tells us a person doesn’t exist until after a certain period! However philosophical debate extends this debate further with disabilities, personhood and considering to allow the deviant body aka disabled child live or be terminated after its birth! Their are some horrific stories women experience and abortion maybe a remedy but it is also opening door for cosmetic abortions, eugenics and finally their is a person aka the child in this debate. Regardless of the possible outcomes, it is a person when conceived and that is what needs to be reinforced in any constitutional reform! Remember feminism is about the unheard voice and it’s vulnerability to masculine wrongs such as medical control!

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    • The purpose of medical intervention is to help save the patient/s if nature goes wrong. Pregnancy is not a disease/sickness. If a patient is sick treat the sickness if it involves another developing life i.e. Unborn person/feotus check if him/her/it is healthy then treat accordingly. If having a baby could cause the mothers death she has a right to protect herself and have an abortion or an early operation to remove the child. If the mother’s right as a consequence of rape is absolute then maybe the treatment should be immediate, using drugs, if the mother chooses to wait too long then she should accept her choice but recognise that after the viability date as accepted for premature babies then abortion should not be an option. Religion and politics is a personal opinion which should not be taken into account as they will automatically reflect the patient’s choice. Legally a woman can make a claim of self protection the same as a man, but an unborn featus/baby cannot so the state should give them equal rights for protection. Known participants should have to make their case by applying for abortion and produce evidence to prove it is necessary to kill/abort the planted human seed.

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  • Cowardly politicians hiding behind an ‘expert group’ because they haven’t got the balls to deal with the issue. PATHETIC! Nothing ever changes, same old politicians playing the same old games, O’Reilly and continuity Fine FAIL never had any intention of dealing with this it was just a cynical exercise in kicking it down the road and then running for cover. 20 years time it’ll still be unresolved because Irish politicians are shit scared of the anti abortion fanatics and the religious zealots who can make their lives difficult for them, easier for them to run away and that’s why it has taken so long to even get to where it is today, absolute cowards!

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    • It’s high time the irish nation taught our politicians a lesson about telling lies before elections just to get into power. Abortion, prison reform, austerity, dail reform (meaningful), senate abolition, rich crimnals, drug dealers and numerous other promises made to fool us. We have an oppurtunity on the 31st May where broken promises will be rewarded with permanent unaccountability for our politicians (europe made us do it syndrome) so if we vote YES we really have been fooled again. Remember austerity as well as denial of civil/human rights ferment uprising and could last a lot longer than any recession, mainly because the rich like to get richer at the expense of the poor until the point of (no returns) for the rich.

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  • Finally a government decision that makes sense and that I can agree with! This bill has nothing to do with protecting the lives of women because they already have d protection they need it’s quite simply about allowing people to kill an innocent unborn child! This should never be allowed in Ireland! This country is d safest in d world for pregnant women!!

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    • Safe the women ready and able to have children, that is. It’s a non fact that women have to leave this country to get abortions, which is in no way safe. This could be safely done in Ireland, causing less stress and pain to an already difficult experience.
      Abortion should be legal. It should have nothing to do with you, the government, or anybody else for that matter.
      If a woman does not want to go through with a pregnancy then it is NOBODYS choice but hers whether she should or not.
      I know people disagree with this a lot but, it’s true, if you don’t want an abortion… Don’t get one!

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    • Ellen A 18/04/12 #

      sorry, have a few typos in my coment.. known fact, not non, amongst others!

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    • Saying the word ‘safe’ as often as you can isn’t going to make anyone forget that it’s the opposite of safe for the person getting killed

      ” if you don’t want an abortion… Don’t get one!”

      What if I don’t like murder? Or rape? Or Politicians ripping off the country? Should I mind my own business there too?

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  • In fairness, the way this country’s goneI wish I’d been aborted 30 years ago.

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  • OGLARRY 19/04/12 #

    I’m Pro Choice 100 %, I’d imagine most people who don’t support abortion are bible bashers. I for one wouldn’t dare to tell a lady she has no choice in such a matter, as I’d say any woman who has gone through such an ordeal didn’t take that decision lightly.

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  • If they don’t like the proposed legislation, come up with something better then.

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  • Don’t agree w abortion on demand but sometimes in these cases it’s really hard to make people continue with a pregnancy!! It’s cruel and forces the people involved to look after a dependent forever! Hats off to people who can but I don’t think I would be able to look after a disabled person for the rest of my life up until I’m seventy or whatever !

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    • So if you only found at at the moment of birth that they were disabled, what then? Smother them? What if you discovered at 8 months? Partial birth abortion? How disabled would a baby have to be for you to be OK with killing it?

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    • Let’s not muddy the waters here. The cases being discussed in the Irish Times yesterday and in the Dail tonight weren’t about disability, they were about women carrying a foetus with a terminal birth defect and no hope of survival beyond the womb. In the context of THIS discussion on THIS proposed legislation certain people are advocating women in these circumstances should be forced to carry to term. Given the debate as it currently stands in the wake of X and the lack of legislation all other discussion on the provision of abortion in this country is mere conjecture.

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