100% agree David.
Greece gets away with the biggest default in history in the hundreds of billions,
Spain tells the EU to get lost with the crippling austerity that was imposed on them,
At the same time “the poster boy”Ireland takes it left right and center by command and control from Brussels and still have to pay of 3.1billion of bank debts that has nothing to do with the Irish people.
I used to be a pro EU until the way Ireland has been treated since the crisis happen sure the IMF seem more helpful then the EU.
As the way I see it were not bailing out our banks but the banks of France and Germany.

Couldn’t agree more. Was a strong European myself but they are not helping us. We deserve better. Renh’s pronouncement did it for me.

@ Eugene: I’m sick of seeing it bandied about on here that Spain told the “EU to get lost with the crippling austerity that was imposed on them” or other comments to that effect.

“The budget deficit for 2011 was 8.5% of GDP, some way over the EU-agreed target of 6%. Cutting that to 4.4% this year, amid a recession, would require a ferocious €45 billion adjustment.” (The Economist) I’d guess the main reason for the failure to reach the target was that the Socialist government was facing a difficult and ultimately unsuccessful re-election bid.

Rajoy announced last week he wanted to cut to 5.8% this year, however he negotiated with the EU and now the 2012 target is a 5.5% deficit of GDP.

The original 3% target by the end of 2013 still stands. So in reality nothing has truly changed policy wise, just the schedule.

Ryan. It has changed. We just haven’t been told yet. It’ll will be pushed out over another year or two. Rajoy is not going to turn Spain in to a new Greece, where massive cuts are made, only to result in a massive downword spiral shorty after.

There is going to be wholesale debt writeoffs for years and years to come.

It not so much that the EU is screwing us, but that the people we put in to power are letting them

So Ryan to use your own words “would require a ferocious €45 billion adjustment” so Spain is going to do that next year instead?

@ Kerry: Those are not my words, they are quoted from the Economist – hence the reference and the quotation marks.

As for cutting it in the following year, no that’s not the case – it is about spreading it out over the two years. Less this year, more next year. Read the figures in my first post again maybe.

Dream on Ryan if your big enough you get away with it otherwise suck it up. ‘All in the name of a united Europe’

A key point : Spain are not being bailed out. They can borrow on the open market.

Ireland can´t borrow on the open market. To fund 40% of the spending on PS pay and SW we are borrowing from the troika.

If you don´t like the troikas terms then don´t borrow, and sort out how to fund PS pay and SW some other way. Take it to those in the PS and on SW.

This is wot rehn said, I am so annoyed that I feel physically sick. I wonder wot smug quotes he came out with in during the depression in finland during the nineties, he strikes me as an im alright jack kind of guy.
“I actually wonder why this has to be asked at all
because the principle in the European Union and
in the long European legal and historical
tradition is – in Latin – pacta sunt servanda,
respect your commitments and obligations,”

These are not our commitments and obligations, they were foisted on us by our stupid government, they are private banking debt. My mortgage is my obligation and commitment and I take full responsibility for that but not this debt.

It gets even better when you consider that the Greek writedown was overwhelmingly on their deficit based borrowings.

We’re not even looking for that (although it is, or will be, something in the order of two thirds of our total debt), all we’re looking for is a writedown on the bank debt-which we only took on because the Americans in the guise of Geithner, and the ECB forced us to, and the FF government were too short sighted to either understand the scale of the problem, or contest the decision.

Ryan, Forbes does a number on Geithner. If it’s any consolation.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/charleskadlec/2012/03/05/tim-geithner-covers-for-corruption-on-pennsylvania-avenue/

Thanks Seán, I enjoyed that :)

Chris re Anglo … Couldn’t agree more … Past experience tells me there’s a lot more dirty washing there than we think and god knows what would be made public in the event of a full transparent enquiry (and the markets…)

Very well said Chris.
What in gods name is going on with this Anglo “investigations”?
This Organisation is costing us 35billion to 43 BILLION even when it was a private company and not much coverage from the main media outlets in this country..
Even the judge’s at the high court were moaning about extending the investigation every 6 months.I think the whole thing stinks,when you have the head guy of the investigation wanting to step down early and another investigator getting a job in BOI??

And lets not forget our money either Stephen these referenda cost money. We need to start bombarding our TDs with emails letting them know for sure how we feel.

Actualy Yvonne we need to be out on the streets telling what passes for government in Ireland and the EU that sorry we don’t need this bullshite anymore and they (our government) and the EU understand what they are putting people through.

And if the AG came back saying a referendum wasn’t needed the whole country would be up in arms about that too.

Nobody can win no matter what is done.

Debts are debts. Regardless of their origin or structure. It’s unfortunate but it has to be paid. That’s all Rehn was saying.

It’s not a case of him running the country.

Or have I missed something?

The compact hasn’t been ratified yet.

It probably will be though. Regardless of what we do. So we want to be left behind to fend for ourselves. If we did need a second bailout where is that money going to come from?

People have said that we’d get money from other sources cheaper. If that is true why wasn’t it done already before this?

TomTraubert, everything that’s happened in recent weeks disproves your entire comment. Debts have to be paid! WTF just happened in Greece? Nobody will leave us to fend for ourselves because they will all need their pound of flesh. We won’t be left to fend for ourselves until we have been bled completely dry. Yes men politics isn’t working, the politicians in Europe who stand up are getting concessions, it’s passed time we did.

Actualy Yvonne we need to be out on the streets telling what passes for government in Ireland and the EU that sorry we don’t need this bullshite anymore and they (our government) and the EU understand what they are putting people through.

whoops wrong thread.

What is it with politics in Ireland? How in gods name do the likes of Enda Kenny get elected? This is the same Enda Kenny who stood back and let Bertie and his gang of thieves plunder this country for every cent they could. People forget how Fine Gael had endless opportunities to bring down the last administration, but spurned them all! That in itself Should have let us see how weak they are. The man hasn’t got the stomach for a real fight. This fiscal compact treaty referendum is now in real danger of becoming a vote on Enda Kenny and his Governments hopeless failure to represent Ireland when it really counts!!

Agreed well said and to think of the bullshite “positioning papers” technical proposals” “reengineering” drivel trotted out over the last 10 weeks we now arrive at the truth.
Meanwhile Kenny off to USA and China when he knew the deadline was on top of us and deals can be done at the 11th hour.
Now watch the cannon fodder trot out their “medium term” mantra.
So much for rabbitte and his interview with Wall Street Journal that deal was only weeks away.
To think Rabbite came out of sinn fein the workers party to the workers party to democratic left to the labour party.
If he keeps going he will end up leading the D U P or the Tories.
They knew about this on Sunday.
Is there no end to this deceit ?

Do you recall Eamon Gilmore calling Brian Cowan an “economic traitor” ? Well who are the traitors now?

WIth massive cuts in pay. There´s plenty of growth in India too, but how many want Indian wages?

You were never going to vote Yes were you….

Tell you what, I was.

And now they can take a hike. I have no confidence whatsoever that this fiscal compact will be of any benefit to us. Greece has proven that writedowns are possible, and while I agree that no nation can run a deficit long term, Spain has proven that austerity is negotiable, and that targets can be adjusted to nurture growth and stave off economic decline.

It has to be a NO from me too, with the under handed way Kenny is planning to screw his own people by ratifying the ESM treaty before we have the fiscal referendum. Kenney knows that the ESM treaty includes the clause “that only countries that ratify the fiscal treaty can access the ESM fund. And when he does this we will have to pay billions into a fund that we can’t access if we say no. In who’s interest is Enda Kenny doing this?

I’ll vote No even though I believe Ireland will yet be granted a concession.
Most of what the Euro leaders have done is for optics and effect (including this slapdown and the compact).
Euro leaders have stated that the solution to the crisis is deleveraged banks, firewalled periphery nations and austere citizenry. What they have done is to continue to inflate the credit bubble and increase the exposure of the banks to periphery economies.
Euro leaders cannot deflate the credit bubble as this will precipitate the collapse but they are attempting to make the world believe that they are doing what, in fact they are not doing.
Attachment emplains why Euro leaders cannot allow bubble to deflate.
http://www.realclearmarkets.com/articles/2011/11/11/the_fallacy_of_persistent_credit_creation_99362.html

Germany isn’t keeping to it’s own Fiscal compact rules…..again…. They were the first to break the Growth & Stability Pact. and now they’re not even waiting for the ink to dry.
http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,820828,00.html

Vote NO to the compact people….. don’t be scared by the apocalypse stories of the FF/FG/LAB/green/ECB/IMF government – it’ll be bad either way. The Energy crisis is already starting.

“SPIEGEL has learned that Berlin failed to reach its own austerity goals in 2011″ :http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,820828,00.html

Thanks for that link.

Great picture of Juncker “pretending” to strangle de Guindos, the Spanish finance minister. Says it all.

Contrast with the Irish approach:

http://thedailyedge.thejournal.ie/caption-competition-whats-nicolas-sarkozy-doing-to-our-enda-341811-Jan2012/

no pitchforks outside their windows – job well done.

I know, that pic should.be front page of every newspaper. Deep guindos face says it all. I did think about that pat on the head and there is a definite comparison. Pat on the head like a good little boy if you do as ur told, a good strangling if you don’t. These guys are bullies.
The line in the article that appealed to me is the fact that the eu does not control the governments (as spain have proved)
‘ the eurozone is a monetary union, not a political one, and if members want to run their own affairs, neither Brussels nor Berlin can stop them. ‘
…I wonder has anyone told our nobheads that???

Get your fact in order Kerry….. Spain will still have to meet their fiscal target. All they have done is push the pain onto 2013 rather than this year. They still need to hit 3% by 2014. Ireland has already got extentions on this very issue. This is what i hate about this site. Lies!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

By the way I dont believe for one second that you ever voted for FG……

Lies?? Spain have said that they will hit the 3% target yes. Mind they also said they would hit there target 4.4 per cent for this year that’s gone by the wayside already. The reason given because they cannot afford any more austerity because it is damaging their economy.

Now looking at some facts such as the eurozone is close to recession if not in one already. Growth across the zone forecast at under 1% and in Spain an unemployment figure of 25% that is increasing plus a forecast that the Spanish economy will contract by 1% this year.

Putting those facts together please explain how Spain are going to meet an even deeper cut next year to hit this magical 3% of GDP if they cannot afford to do it this year?

Ironically when the Spanish PM made this announcement the cost of borrowing for them dropped. Would seem to be that suggests the markets think to much austerity does not work?

Not lies Declan just my opinion looking at some facts such as the forecast growth for the eurozone and local conditions in Spain..

So what or who more likely do you suggest??? For the record excluding any bank debt or bond holders or Germans or any other bad guys you want to add, we spend 11 billion a year more than we make… Simple as that… So unless you have a magic wand that can create billions of euros, the fact is that Garda Stations in areas with tiny populations, army barracks in towns that dont need them and A&E in unsafe hospitals will be closed. What the Goverment should do is to hold a referendum on all those actions…
1). Should we close schools with less than 10 pupils?
2.) Should we close Garda Stations in villages all over the country and use resources in more populated area?
3.) Should we combine our hospital resources so as to get the best value for the money we spend?

Put that to the people, all the people and see your answer…A definate yes to all 3 by the majority…

The ‘Follow Spain’s lead’ is obviously in the context of ignoring EU set fiscal targets, rather than anything you stated.
Enough of this nonsense, bin the fiscal pact treaty!

A bird in the hand is worth 2 in the bush,.,.,.,.,a stitch in time saves 9.,.,.,he who waits is lost.,.,any more empty rhetoric ive missed paddy or is your name mr.kenny?

I believe it was populist spin that secured FG/labour their place in office, they too brought nothing to the table only revised FF policies and knee pads to protect themselves when they are genuflecting to the likes of Rehn.

FF reminded us that we were not Iceland or Greece and FG remind us that we’re not Spain, – countries who received massive concessions for not playing ball and breaking rules, the only thing we are comparable to is the victim of marital abuse, no matter how much we do to facilitate and please our “partners” we end up getting kicked in the face.
This Fiscal compact is basically marrying the abusive partner.

I think an alliance of independents competent in their relevant areas will have to be tried at some stage, party politics has failed the people in Ireland and Include Sinn Fein in that. We need a genuine government of the people for the people…etc

Ireland would have 22% unemployment, or even more, if it wasn’t for emigration. Did you forget that Declan?

There’s no reason to vote for the fiscal compact. It does nothing for Ireland, and is being ignored even by those countries that have already “signed up”.

You’re right skeolawn, most of my friends are in oz or Canada.

Indeed Declan you should also take your own advice. Did you vote yes to Lisbon 2? You know the slogan that went along with it. Something along to vote yes to jobs etc……

@ Kerry and funny enough, the word jobs has come up when the government has mentioned this fiscal treaty. They don’t think we’re that stupid, do they?

Have a read of this Declan and see if it influences your opinion at all.

http://hat4uk.wordpress.com/2012/03/07/exclusive-why-greece-cannot-be-allowed-to-survive-why-merkel-is-in-such-a-hurry-to-get-to-fiskalpakt/

I have a much better article outlining the whole situation on PDF but I can’t currently find an online version.

Found it:

http://www.investorsinsight.com/blogs/john_mauldins_outside_the_box/archive/2012/03/12/european-countries-that-make-you-go-hmmm.aspx

Scroll past the first bit, read from the heading “Things that make you go hmmm…”

I am convinced that this site is full of united left alliance or SF now. Ever half decent comment gets the thumbs down. Thank God nobody gives a toss what people say on this site (thats includes the journalists)

So those articles didn’t do didn’t highlight any issues with the current plan then no?

Declan: are you one of the bondholders?

Um, yes-that’s pretty obvious.

Setting your own targets to get there in order to facilitate growth, a realisation that we are still masters of our own destiny and that our European neighbours cannot force us to do anything, and an understanding that writedowns are both possible as well as quite expeditious in improving a nations financial standing among the international markets are all quite “good” policies in themselves, I would have thought.

This fallacy needs to be debunked, sooner rather than later.

“Our European neighbours cannot force us to do anything”

The phrase “don’t bite the hand that feeds” springs to mind. They are funding a large part out of country’s spending at the moment. With the threat of not releasing further loan tranches, they can force us to do things. That’s the realpolitik of the situation. People complain about the misery €3-4bn of cuts and tax increases inflicts – the prospect of €16bn would be a far different ball game. Sometimes its the least worst option that politicians must go for.

@Ryan – here’s another pithy phrase for you: “when you’re in a hole, stop digging”

We’re borrowing money to pay back “our” debts.