is that the same free world that now imposes its freedom on others with military interventions, coups and drone bombings?

Ah Kerron we are talking about 70 years ago. It was a bit more direct then you know face to face.

Imperialism still operates with the same motives: profit and power

and has the same outcomes: death and destruction

saying things are different simply because they happened X amount of years ago is ahistorical

And the Third Reich was such a kindly, peaceable regime, wasn’t it? “Empire?” what are you blathering about? The Empire was sacrificed, the nation bankrupted, the people starved on the sort of weekly rations you or I would use to make one sandwich, and 1500 British civilians killed every single day, in the name of defending the world against the vilest bunch of murderers the world has ever known – despite Britain being specifically offered peace-terms by the Nazis as “Anglo-Saxon brothers.” Are you totally insane? Do you have any idea what would have happened to Ireland without the sacrifices made by the allies? One squeak out of you and you would just have been a smoking hole in the ground. The courage of these men, the integrity in choosing to fight true evil, knowing the bigotry they would return to, is beyond belief, truly awesome. You should be proud to have produced such people, not wittering on the same tired old rubbish. What a backward freak you are. No doubt it is people like you who DeValera was referring to, when – unlike every country in shattered Europe – he refused to take in Jewish orphans, who everyone else had pledged to bring up in their own faith: “only 500 and only on condition that nobody is told they are Jews, for fear of reprisals.” No civilised person uses the words “orphaned children” and “reprisals” in the same breath. Eternal shame on you for being one of only three nations low enough to have maintained diplomatic relations with Nazi Germany. This ruling is a sign of – finally – growing up and behaving in a statesmanlike manner, instead of embarrassing yourselves by ranting outdated, self-pitying b*llocks.

Karl they acted in her best interest when they volunteered to sign up to defend the people of Ireland and her interests. they then BROKE AN OATH and joined a foreign military, the propaganda machines were working for both sides back then. there was no public knowledge of the death camps, nor of the battle fronts on the eastern or western campaigns. these DESERTERS could not have known what way the war was going, I’m proud of every Irish man and women who fought on allies or axis side during the war for a cause they believed in. but do not feel we should forgive those who broke an oath to defend our shores if it was needed.

Are you for real John? Facism was well known about from the early 30s. Jews were being openly persecuted in Germany for over 6 years before the war. Franco’s regime in Spain was committing atrocities from 1936 up until the advent of war and he was openly being supported by Hitler and Mussolini. How quick would you be to swear an oath to defend our country? So easy to say type those words isn’t it?

If these men were so interested in fighting fascism then why didn’t they go to Spain and fight with the International Brigades??

They weren’t!!

because there was no money in it, just the likelihood of death fighting for the Spanish Republic against fascism

The full extent of the Holocaust was unimaginable, but enough was known – through refugees, smuggled information etc – for everyone to know that genocide was in progress. And of course, everyone knew that every other country in Europe – except the UK due to immense courage and sacrifice, and Eire thanks to the UK – was being invaded and enslaved, treated as sub-humans – literally. Are you really, truly, equally proud of those Irishmen who chose to actively support the Axis powers? How sick can anyone get?

William, I totally agree with you..

You should take a look at yourselves first. It’s not anti-British to be proud of being Irish, but I’d suggest your attitude is anti-Irish and naive in the extreme. Just look at actually happened in WWII. The US took the opportunity to dismantle the British Empire for economic reasons. That’s how they treated their “allies”. Wake up and realize that in the real world either we look after our own interests or we get taken for fools.

@censored – those men did look after our interests, they looked after this country and its future generations, they took the fight to the enemy instead of waiting for hitler and the boys to make their mark on irish soil. it doesnt matter what flag was on their uniform, they knew who they fought for, why they fought and they did a bloody good job of it!!!

There was indeed it was called operation sealion.

Britain Also had a plan to invade Ireland in order to use our Atlantic sea ports.

So did the germans…ironically enough called Operation Green :)

If Britain had not survived, Ireland was planned to be used solely as a military base for the planned invasion of the USA. You were considered to be troublesome and lacking in natural resources, and while a nasty “Poland style” occupation was planned for the British which Hitler considered to be blood brothers, but who had rejected peace-terms, the Irish were on the list of those not considered racially suitable to be treated as equals – which generally meant a form of apartheid forbidding “interbreeding” with the native population, actual slavery, medical experimentation, or death. You should be proud of these men – they are the ones who were actually defending your homeland, not those who served a government which was busily kissing Hitler’s bum.

Churchill requested the use of those seaports, and was refused by DeValera’s pro-Nazi government. Sorry to break it to you Emmet, but if we’d wanted to take them by force, we could have done.

Agreed. An army can only function, especially one at a time of conflict, when it knows that each man and woman will play their part. A situation where so many decided not to turn up one day was unacceptable.

If they had done this in Britain or America or France they would have been shot, or died in jail.

But chuck it was public knowledge that nazi germany had invaded all of eastern, western, southern and northern Europe!
The Japanese had control of the pacific!
I am sure that bit of info was in the newspapers don’t you think?

I think it was public knowledge that Britain acquired an Empire through conquest too. Or did you miss that memo?

Chuck I must have been asleep during my Irish history class to know about that! Now do you want to defend the actions of nazi Germany and Japan in the second world war? Cause it sounds like you are! You give them a pass because of the history of Britain. Tell that to the 60 million who died in ww2

Nothing I said implies giving Germany or Japan a free pass, and if you really thought that then I’m not surprised that you are having so much trouble remembering what you read less than an hour ago.

Here it is again; I’d doubt any of them had some special knowledge of what was happening in the camps of Eastern Europe. That wasn’t public knowledge.

They volunteered for the Irish army and then deserted. Ergo, they are deserters.

Do you honestly think the Irish Defence Forces would have lasted more than a couple of days in the face of an invasion by either the Allies or Axis powers? By going to fight for the Allies these soldiers were proactive in defending Ireland’s freedom. There was a great danger after the fall of France and the Dunkirk evacuation that the UK would be taken by the Nazis and Ireland would certainly fall after that, neutral or not. The Germans would not have left such a strategic island open to the US for counter attacks. The men who left the Irish army to join the Allies should be regarded as heroes not just for freedom of Europe from fascism but also for Irish freedom. Details of what was happening in the concentration camps was public knowledge by late 1942, but I don’t see what that has got to do with it. The extermination of Jews, Homosexuals, Roma etc was a despicable crime but the threat of occupation of the UK and Ireland would’ve been far higher in the thoughts of these men.

“Do you honestly think the Irish Defence Forces would have lasted more than a couple of days in the face of an invasion by either the Allies or Axis powers?”

Yes I do, and so did Montgomery and so the the Americans. Read “Step Together!” by Donal McCarron for more information

In any case, the prospect of victory isn’t the point. You defend your country to the last, which is why Churchill, like the Irish, prepared for fighting a guerilla war and the most immediate threat to Ireland came in fact from the Allies. So should we laud these men for deserting our forces in order to put themselves in position where they might have helped to invade Ireland? Should the Polish not have bothered trying to defend themselves since they were unlikely to win? Weren’t the British unlikely to hold out after Dunkirk? Should they have capitulated too?

As I said in my original post, they had the freedom the join the British forces as tens of thousands of others did. That’s fine. What’s not fine is swearing an oath, letting the Irish pay for your training and then deserting.

If you desert, you are a deserter, it’s pretty simple really.

Fact is Ireland should have joined the war on the side of the Allies, or at the very least should have given the use of our ports to Churchill. It was only DeValera’s insular anti British views that prevented more Irish from fighting nazi Germany.

No, we were right to stay neutral. These Imperial wars are nothing to do with us and we’ve given up enough dead Irish people to their war machines.

Oh let’s all condemn these anti-British sentiments that DeV and many others held

It’s not like the British were on the verge of putting him up against a wall and shooting him 24 years earlier!

As the ones who remained with the Irish army were supporting a government which kow-towed to a regime which planned to treat the Irish as they treated the slav people (yes, that much was known, btw!) they were, in fact, collaborators. It is the ones who fought the Nazis alongside the British who were defending Ireland.

DeValera also had some sick views on Jewish orphans. A statesman should be lofty enough to consider the greater moral good.

What threat was there from the Allies? I hate to downgrade something you are bound to be proud of but honestly, don’t you realise that the occupation of Ireland had virtually no public support in the UK? Why do you imagine us all rubbing our hands and gloating, yearning to control a country which, frankly, always cost more to police than it ever produced? Most people just wanted to make sure that you didn’t kill each other in the kind of religious feuding which nobody here has been able to understand since the Englightenment. If we had had any evil intent in that respect, do you honestly think we couldn’t have pulled it off? If you are going to quote Montgomery, here’s one – he was asked if he could put down the Irish uprising and replied “Yes, in 36 hours, but not without significant loss of civilian life – and my name isn’t Cromwell.” Do grow up, please. The Irish army – which supported a regime which was actively collaborating with the Nazis who planned to give the Irish the sort of occupation the British never dreamed of – would have been as much use as a chocolate tea-pot against the forces of the Third Reich.

But 24 years earlier, we didn’t, did we? During WW2, he was posing as a statesman – that means abandoning his own petty spite in favour of what is right.

which front line… I have a grand parent who was pow in Burma, I have friends Who’s grand parent was a German fighter ace pilot. I have no problems with the Irish men who fought on either side, I have no disregard for any Japanese who’s grandfather may have been a guard in my grandfather’s camp. the main point is these warriors/soldiers joined and served one nation one flag. The Irish soldiers signed up to protect Ireland, it’s shores and it’s people. those who left their post and served under another nations flag do not deserve to be pardoned. If we used military law within the bounds of war time then sentence can be as harsh as death or lifetime prison. Since we were a neutral nation the government were just with their judgment of a seven year no state job and forfeit of irish military pension. to both the allies and axis sides they were treated as deserters.

Declan, cards on the table do you know of Irish military personal who abandoned their posts, and signed up with another nation and fought under their flag?

Quick question for you John, would you ever consider it acceptable for a soldier to ignore his oath of duty to his country and fight for what he truly believes is right? Think about those soldiers fighting against loyalist forces in Syria right now, soldiers who are now technically classed as deserters but are heroes in the eyes of many around the world.

Couldn’t agree more Michael, this part of Irish history leaves me very sad. Worse was to come after the war when the “bold” Dev let a paltry amount of Jewish refugees into Ireland. No doubt he was infulanced by mother church.

Well said.

what exactly was the “bigger picture” of World War One??

It was an imperialist game of chess, based on tensions created during the so-called scramble for Africa and older territorial ambitions on the European continent.

What big picture were the Irish who fought in Gallipoli and on the Western Front seeing exactly?

Most wars are based on territorial ambition Kerron. Kind of goes with the definition of war.

The crux of the issue is whether WWII was fought on an ideological basis

I was merely correcting the above comment which conflated the pointless imperial slaughter of WW1 with the more complex basis for WWII

and these days most wars are not fought with territorial ambition in mind, rather they are about geo-political and economic control and military spheres of influence – oh and outright plunder!

Kerron – WW1 was disgusting and from here and now appears pointless – but it was fought on a territorial basis. Neutral Belgium was invaded and its people subjected to horrendous slaughter, so was France – 3000 Frenchmen died for every day of that war, leaving half the male population either dead or disabled. The land was devastated, industries bled white, territories annexed, POWs starved and used for such things as mining – without pit-props. Large parts of Northern France are still inable to be used because they contain discarded weaponry, toxic gas-cannisters, and saddest of all, corpses. Chemical war-fare was used for the first time by the Germans, England suffered the first air-borne bombing raids, and the Kaiser declared his intentions to annexe every part of the existing Empires (which included Ireland at the time.) At that time, every European nation had an Empire to some degree, and they were considered a measure of success and economic growth, not oppression. So although at a distance it looks like a pointless squabble among royal cousins, close up and seen through the eyes of a recruit 99 years ago, it was very real and necessary, to defend a way of life which the protagonists had no idea was already obsolete. And the whole thing was planned in 1905 (the Von Schlieffen plan) – it was no flash in the pan.

A crime to fight Nazis? Hyperbole much? It was a crime because they deserted their own armed forces during the greatest crisis the nation had faced to sign up for the army of a belligerent nation.

Nothing to do with uncle Adolph. Winston was the greater threat to this country’s sovereignty back then.

Of course, despite all the high horse moralising, evil stinky Hitler wasn’t even the greatest mass murderer of that era. That honour would have to go to one of the Allied nations. Funny how the winners are absolved of such things.

OiSan O Ceallaigh, stand up and take a bow. Your comment stands out as the most spectacularly bigoted and splendidly pig-ignorant comment in the history of post-war Anglo Irish relations – and that’s up against some pretty stiff opposition. Congratulations. Your Prat Of The Year rosette is in the post. Now run along and polish your tin-foil hat – I daresay the mother-ship will soon be calling.

So you honestly think the Irish Army with practically no modern equipment would’ve acted as a deterrent to the Allies or Axis had they decided they wanted to take the country. We had four Gloster Gladiator Biplanes and three Hurricanes which had come under our control when they landed on Irish soil. I don’t think that would have given the Luftwaffe or RAF much nightmares. The Irish army may have put up a brave defence, maybe even to the last man, but had it been attacked the country would’ve fallen in days. The best thing these soldiers could’ve done to protect Ireland was what they did do, join with the Allies.

“So you honestly think the Irish Army with practically no modern equipment would’ve acted as a deterrent to the Allies or Axis had they decided they wanted to take the country.”

They did. Christ, read something before you comment. Why do you think no-one tried to use our ports without permission? Politeness??

Invading isn’t enough, you have to hold a place to make use of it and the Allies assessed this as not being do-able without committing more forces than they could spare.

If everyone had taken their lead from these men and deserted, Ireland would surely have been invaded

“Freedom” – the most abused word in the English language. I wonder what the Iraqis think of George W Bush’s “Operation Iraqi Freedom”, those that are still alive, that is.

I daresay Saddam’s supporters are deeply pissed off about it. The rest had been asking for western intervention for twelve years – as are Syria, now.

Jason you said “they should be punished” -your words! Do you realize that these are elderly people or have passed on? They fought the good fight! It’s time to move on. This is the right thing to do.

Jason, do you think the soldiers in Syria who refused to shoot at innocent civilians and instead deserted deserve to be “punished as such”?

@Ignoreland
Comparing apples and oranges. You can’t compare desertion to fight a civil war an desertion to a foreign power to fight a war that doesn’t involve you.

@Declan
The good fight? How many German soldiers were conscripts? How many had blood on their hands before they were thrown to the wolves? There were no good or bad sides during that war, the “good guys” in your opinion nuked and firebombed cities so where does your good factor in?

Of course it involved us. We were entirely dependent on the fate of Europe as much as England or France etc. And from a purely humanitarian stance, what Nazi Germany did to the Jews and other classes of people affects humanity as a whole.

Jason, another dinosaur stuck in 1916, maybe you’d rather be speaking German. As for the rag tag Irish Defence Force, they literally would not have lasted five minutes, de Valera knew it and so did everyone else. Irish neutrality cost them dear and it took some time before American and British confidence was rebuilt

Ur a shit stirrer….

Well he makes a fair point regardless.

Not really, just pointing out the hypocrisy of it. They left our army to go sign up with an army of a foreign country. It shouldn’t matter which army they joined, they’re still deserters and got the punishment applicable under law.

Paddy you are talking shite!

How am I Declan, just stating some facts.

Paddy – their ‘crime’ wasn’t treated under the applicable laws at the time of the offence; the govt of the day actively set out to punish them without regard to due process or military law, didn’t hold trials or allow any defence by using legislative sleight of hand which in itself raises the question of the then govt acting outside its powers and the high probability its actions were in direct conflict with the constitution.

It might not be what we want to hear but technically Paddy is right. Not that I would agree, but that’s just opinion.

I am pretty sure Irish soldiers in the German Army were not treated the same as those that went to the British side. That was the main problem the fact that they joined the British Army and not that they joined a foreign army.

Sean T Russell joined the Germans, and he got a statue. Those who joined the British Army and fought for Ireland’s freedom (make no mistake about that!) were named and “shamed” and barred from public sector jobs. This bill serves to REDRESS the previous hypocrisy, not to perpetuate hypocrisy.

Paddy, you’re completely wrong and possibly just trolling. The issue isn’t whether you get pardoned because you deserted to fight for a different army, it is the fact that you deserted to fight for an army who, despite our official status of neutrality, was fighting for a cause we also shared.

Ignoreland: Sorry, but you are wrong. Desertion is a black and white issue, why a soldier deserts is not a topic that should be up for debate.
Felicity: Sean T Russell earned his place in history, as the saying went, “England’s difficulty is Ireland’s opportunity.”. But while you mention it, I wonder if some of the turned POW’s from Camp Friesack were deserters and if they would be pardoned also.

Sean Russell did not “join the Germans”!

What utter revisionist tripe. He went to seek assistance to rid Ireland of the British Empire, and had no truck with any other invading army. He would have fought the Nazis had they put Operation Green into effect.

There’s a long history of Irish people making common cause with whoever happened to be fighting the British. The nazis were pretty evil, but many other war making organizations (such as the British Empire) deserve just as much opprobrium.

Paddy, you’re the typical imbecile who’s keeping your country back. They joined the British army to help free Europe from tyranny. What do you do, ii would say nothing except whinging; grow up and move on.

Having some pride in your own country (Ireland, in case you need a reminder) doesn’t make you an imbecile. In fact, William, I’d say you’re the “typical imbecile” brainwashed by revisionists and the Daily Rag. There’s no other country in the world that would have stooped to this idiotic apology.

paddy….ye fool. we were sitting on our arses waiting for some emergency to happen back then, at least those 5000 lads got up and done something about it. and before ye crap on about allegiance remember that the majority of catholic lads who fought were trying to free other catholic countries and succeeded and also helped our continent and country falling under the rule of dictatorship!

And yet, it seems to be supported by the intelligent majority on this page, doesn’t it? (By the way, in 1939, only two other countries “stooped” to maintain diplomatic relations with the Nazis.) Does that inflate your national pride?

The necessity to survive in a time of war produces strange bedfellows – for example, Stalinist Russia, the epitome of an evil regime, nevertheless did more than most to destroy Naziism. At a time of such intense crisis, what counts is the common enemy – not whether everyone can be best buddies in normal circumstances. With all due respect, Ireland’s tiny army wouldn’t have stood a snowball’s chance in hell against the 3rd Reich – and yes, they had every intention of invading you, and, even worse, considered you racially inferior – on a level with the Slavic people, whose fate the whole world knew at the time. A guerrilla-style war of defence only works if, at some level, the invader is ham-strung by some consideration for humanity: you only have to compare the actions of Cromwell and Montgomery to realise that. We had no intention of invading Ireland. Irish Independence actually had massive support in England. We asked, as one sovereign state to another, permission to use your ports – and were refused, by a pro-Nazi Irish government. If the British had fallen, so would you – and into a far worse case than us, because we were classed as being an Aryan nation. Would you have preferred your country to have been subjected to the full “sub-human” treatment, on anti-British principal? These soldiers were heroic in every way – you should be immensely proud of them, not moaning that they did something more useful than lining up like lambs to the Nazi slaughter.

In someways it’s a big pity we do not know their stories, why they did what they did and what they did after enlisting in a foreign army. Just like a pebble tossed into a pool the ripples travel out and change other things. Who knows maybe on of those who ‘deserted’ changed the course of the war ensuring that neither Britain or Germany invaded Ireland. After all one of Churchill’s closest advisers was Brendan Bracken an Irishman.

How do you mean we don’t know their stories?

recent historical research shows that the majority of them went for reasons of “adventure” and for economic reasons

Really Kerron? Please provide links for that. I’d be interested to read that. Thanks in advance!

“Both men’s cases epitomise the two principal motives for desertion. Some were simply fed up with life in a peacetime army, and wanted to fight with the British forces, either to satisfy a thirst for adventure or to play a part in the struggle against Nazism. But, it appears that most deserted out of economic necessity.”

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2012/0114/1224310243057.html

Ah – I see where you are leading with this: you are saying, the existing sovereign power must at all times be given absolute loyalty regardless of all considerations of moral right or personal inclination. By your own definition, then, the Irish citizens of Britain – a sovereign state at the time of the Irish uprising – were not fighting for freedom from a foreign power, but committing technical treason in rebelling against British rule, and fully deserved to be shot in punishment. Don’t be daft.