This is the Ron Paul who voted against honoring the Civil Rights Act on the basis that he thinks the Civil Rights Act intruded on what he termed the “property rights” of white people (ie forced them to give equal pay and employment to blacks thus impinging on their ‘freedom’ to be racist). The same Ron Paul who says that laws on sexual harassment of women in the workplace should reflect the ‘fact’ that the victims are undoubtedly partly to blame for it happening to them? The same Ron Paul who’s been officially endorsed by neo-Nazi group Stormfront as their preferred candidate?

Besides all of those moral issues, the fact that the last thing the world economy needs right now is a devotee of “the Austrian School of Economics” should eliminate him as a sensible choice. That school of thought believes that there’s no such thing as scientific measures of economic performance and economic policy should be based purely on ideology (ie if you do something you’re sure will create jobs, and all the measures of unemployment shows it going UP, in ‘the Austrian School’ that simply proves that those measures don’t work)

You are right that the 21% is a good result. He’s so utterly unelectable at a national level (he disagrees with most Republicans on practically everything, let alone moderate independents) that the longer he stays in the race the better things look for the Democrats.

So you think the Federal Reserve is a good thing… Says it all…

Ron Paul has answered those charges quite well. One thing is for sure, business as usual politics is the clear and present danger. I may not agree with everything Ron Paul believes but when it comes to getting out of other peoples countries, stop meddling in their politics, stop sponsoring who other people call terrorists (pro American dictators) stop bombing innocent civilians, respect the sovereignty of other nations, declare war if needs be and if so, go in and win and get out! No nation building! Americas foreign policy fuels the hatred towards America, It’s a vicious circle. I’d vote for Ron Paul just for that. It’s so important. Then there’s balancing the budget, stop printing money out of thin air!! Audit the fed! Stop the failed drugs war! The guy talks so much sense, he may not be perfect but he certainly isn’t business as usual!

How can you say he came out of nowhere, he announced his nomination a long time ago and was present at all the debates.

I mean he was trailing in opinion polls all last year and was not considered a viable candidate, even by his own base. His 11th hour surge was a result of late rigorous campaigning in visiting all 99 Iowa counties combined with the embarrassing credibility of the other candidates.

Additionally, despite being a catholic, Santorum was popular among Evangelical Christians because of his socially conservative views. Iowa has the largest percentage of evangelical Christian voters in the United States.

Peter… Can you explain why your wonderful Obama signed the NDAA into law last week… You really are falling for the two party fake democracy routine…

Ed…Can you explain why you object to the NDAA? Surely not on the basis of the belief it empowers the US to hold its own citizens indefinitely without trial. Because, y’know, not, in point of fact, true. (As the text of the NDAA itself says: “[The Act is not] is intended to limit or expand the authority of the President or the scope of the Authorization for Use of Military Force.” and, specifically, in the ‘offending’ section: “Nothing in this section shall be construed to affect existing law or authorities relating to the detention of United States citizens, lawful resident aliens of the United States, or any other persons who are captured or arrested in the United States.”

As for the whole ‘fake democracy’ thing: can you show me a better third party candidate? It’s somewhat disingenuous to be complaining about ‘fake democracy’ when by ‘fake democracy’ you mean ‘people voting other than how you want them to’.

@Ed: can you name a republican candidate who wouldn’t have signed it?

If its alright with you I won’t rely on Obama’s worthless unconstitutional promise to not make citizens disappear without proof or trial… Your being terribly naieve but as you sound like the gullible sheep they like, I’m sure you will be safe for now…

@Paul… Only one Ron Paul….

Paul, to be fair, Ron Paul voted against it and would undoubtedly have refused to sign it. But that’s to be seen in the context of him being an Uber-Libertarian. He’s SO against ‘big’ government he doesn’t even think there should be a Department of Education!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXCZVmQ74OA

@Ed: on balance, do you think Ron Paul would be a better president than Barack Obama?

Ed, it’s not something said in a stump speech somewhere. It’s the *text of the law that was passed*. You’re complaining that he signed a law saying it does NOT “affect existing law or authorities relating to the detention of United States citizens, lawful resident aliens of the United States, or any other persons who are captured or arrested in the United States.”

In other words, a law that says the opposite of what you seem to think it does. If the LAW ITSELF is, in your view, meaningless and you’d have to be ‘naive’ to think its provisions have any force than why, then, do you object to it anyway?

@Peter RP wants the state’s to manage their own education and closed the federal education department. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Ron wants minimal federal government and more state government. Just like most Irish probably don’t want to be in a federal Europe which we pretty much are

While not all are zionists. The vast majority are. A Zionist is someone who believes in the right of Israel to exist as a sovereign state as a Jewish homeland . Yet people like you hype it up as some sort of evil man. Skimming cast profits off banks to fuel Israel . The very way you speak is the exact same way people spoke about Jews . Zionist ploy. Jewish ploy . Zionist lies Jewish lies. Zionist money Jewish money. It’s the same thing. The hate is still there it’s now just more politically correct to say Zionist .

Barry. You are being disingenuous. Zionists believe in a Jewish state…and only Jewish. No Gentiles.. I.e. Christian and definitely no Muslims.. that encompasses land from Euphrates in Iraq to the Nile in Egypt. Is this correct?… Now I apologize If I am incorrect but that belief is bound to cause a whole lot of pain…

Ed no wonder your full of hate. I have never heard one single Zionist believe that is the siZe Israel should be . While some zionists believe I one state. Others two.
If you actually did some research you would see. Arabic is an official language in Israel. The Islamic and Christian calendar are official calendars and the Christian population of Israel has increased not decreased. The only Christian population in the middle east to do so. Arabs make up 20 per cent of Israel. There is no desire for a single race state. That is what anti Semitic people state .i have been to Israel. I know Irish Jews and other Irish zionists . Almost all would be described as politically left leaning. Pro gay marriage anti racism. Feministic etc never once have I heard of such nonsense . I swear I hear such rubbish from anti Israel people who seem to imagine there is this kabal of jewish old men with huge big noses and they pull the strings of the world and dictate its media and politicians . Such awful lies and it only creates such hatred

With all due respect what the commoner gardener person on the street in Israel thinks has not relevance to what Zionist is or isn’t and believe me when I say It pleases me that Joe soap Israeli would think like you but unfortunately all countries have religious extremists and they think different from you or me.. For your information. I am agnostic so couldn’t care Less about religion but it is fupping our planet up more than so called climate ever will. Sorry if you think I am full of hate but if you can’t get through this brief discussion without thinking that then I think it will be a tall order for Israelis to ever talk to their neighbors. Seems a bit over the top to react that way. Sorry if your perception of my ignorance to your belief caused offence.I am sure others here will help clarify if my earlier statement is true or false.

Ed. you didn’t even know what modern Zionist believe. You started rabbiting on about some ancient Jewish homeland from Iraq to Israel. Which I have never heard any single zionist speak of. You can’t prove any evidence To suggest this is the desire of the evil Jewish kabal .

Lol and you had the audacity to ask do I think your anti Semitic.

Carlin Ite, Please go back and look at the comment by Ed Kavanagh that I originally replied to and look at your immediate response to it. The message conveyed is that Zionists are manipulating top Republican candidates to bring about a (nuclear?) attack on Iran to protect Israel which was only set up to cause trouble in the Middle-East.Now if you want to call that rational debate, good luck to you.You will find plenty around here to give you the thumbs up.But it’s actually a quite demented and paranoid outlook and it does hark back to the historical,and in many cases ongoing,use of conspiracy theories that have been used to oppress Jews, long before there ever was a State of Israel!!! So you can convince yourself that there was an isolated event in the 1030s/40s that was out of step with the history of the Jewish people and that the use of language like “Zionist stooges” is acceptable and that my reference to the 1930s was out of order.I beg to differ.For what it’s worth I didn’t mention the Nazis although I was of course referring to their actions.My point was that the Jewish people didn’t manage to use their “sinister powers” to avoid the extermination of millions of innocents.And I have never said that all criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic.In fact I believe the record will show that I have said the contrary.On the other hand,opponents of Israel throw out Israel/ Nazi comparisons with disturbing alacrity.

Sad but true. Although I reckon they just use Israel as the excuse. At this cynical stage I would easily believe they helped build Israel only to stir up trouble in the middle east

Here we go again-it’s all about those Jews (aka “Zionists”), pulling the strings like they always have. Like in Europe in the 1930, eh?

Charles Mark, not all Jews are Zionists and not all Zionists are Jews. It’s completely incorrect to automatically assume they are one and the same and Ed made no reference to Jews. The vast majority of Jews are in no way connected to Zionism.

The same dumb mistake would be to elect another republican president. With the possible exception of Ron Paul, putting any of the other morons in office pretty much guarantees another war.

John, to be fair, I believe that’s actually Charles’ own point. Ed’s post basically sets out a definition of “zionist”or “zionist stooge” so wide that it becomes nonsensical.

Peter, to be fair, it wasn’t. Ed made no mention of Jews in his comment, Charles did.

You’re right Peter Nolan,but I would go further and suggest that in many cases “Zionist” is used as a weasel word to avoid actually saying “Jew”.In this particular instance the juxtaposition of “Zionist” and “stooges” to my mind conveys a clear image of Jews pulling strings,which is the type of scapegoating which should set off alarm bells.There is no doubt that there is strong support for Israel in the US, on both the Republican and Democrat sides.It doesn’t follow that this is because the “Zionist lobby” has mesmerised American politicians and people.Moreover,it is well-known that the vast majority of American Jews support the Democrats and were strongly supportive of Barack Obama who is one of the less Israel-friendly Presidents (although to his credit he acknowledged Israel’s security needs in his UN speech a few months ago).

You do know Ron Paul has already said if Israel feels its in her safety interest to strike Iran it should. He was one of the few American politicians to defends Israel back when it struck Iraqs nuclear reactor.

John your actually wrong . A very large part of the worlds Jewish population is Zionist. The term Zionist is for someone who supports the right of Israel to exist as a sovereign Jewish homeland . I am a Zionist . There are a few left Wing Jewish groups who are anti Zionist but by an large even the most secular of Jews are supportive of israels right to exist. Some zionists are pro settlements some anti settlements . It’s not possible to wash all zionists the same colour . But your comment above is incorrect. Most Jews are zionists.

Brian sorry has a democrat in the white house supported the war?? Yes . Has he pulled out of Afghanistan yet?? No. Did he with France and others come to the aid of Libyan rebels ??? Yes using military force. While the Libyans now love the French and Americans and are renaming streets after them. I think Obama but mainly France has cleared the way for civil war and or the rise of the Muslim brotherhood there

Barry, so you’re Zionist and since “all can’t be washed with the same colour”, what ‘colour’ are you?
Your black and white ‘Wikipedia’ definition on Zionism fails to allow for its own hijacking from within. By the way if that’s the definition you apply to your own personal belief system then fine, far be it from me to dispute that. While I might disagree, I’ve absolutely no problem with anyone’s opinion or beliefs as long as they don’t support or advocate harm to anybody else. Do you support the actions of the Rothschild dynasty who head the Zionist movement in the US and Israel? Do you support the genocide in Palestine?
Just for clarification, since many people try to brand anyone who attempts to criticise Zionism as being anti-Semetic, I’m not referring to the Jewish religion – Judaism and Zionism are not the same thing.

John firstly I don’t use Wikipedia its crap. Secondly I am not surprised your filled with Jew hatred . Your so worked up with your conspiracy theories. I have watched hours of those YouTube videos. Very well made filled with propaganda and hate. You’ll next be telling us the holocaust was done with zionists support . I have no interest in discussing with you any further . I have watched the journal become a talking shop for anti semitic nwo conspiracy theorists . And it’s a real turn off and I really do see now why so many young Jews can’t wait to get to Israel and get away from Ireland it’s over run with anti Jewish sentiment covered as some sort of pro Palestinian anti Zionism human rights cause.
While you might like to go on about some sort of genocide against Palestinians . The only ones in the area who openly call for genocide are Hamas

Haha! Touched a nerve have we Barry? Such utter, deluded nonsense – it’s clear where your bigoted sympathies lie. Good to see you don’t let facts get in the way of an abusive, personal and entirely unfounded rant. Off with you so – I hope you win the competition! Good man.

Touched no nerve. You keep living there with your silly little New World Order conspiracies

@Charles So what word should we use to criticise Zionism, if “Zionism” is to be considered a racist term now?

Random, Instead of weighing in with the usual knee-jerk stuff we see so much around here, why don’t you go back and see what I actually said. My objection was to the phrase “Zionist stooges” both in its own terms and in the context in which it was used by Ed Kavanagh and picked up by Carlin Ite. “Zionist” is not a racist word. You can call me a Zionist any time you like. I won’t take offense. In fact I’m proud of the achievements of the State of Israel. I have never suggested it is above or beyond criticism. For example, the IDF made a complete hash of the interception of the Mavi Marmara, though it was not solely to blame for that fiasco.See: a Zionist criticising Israel. Who could’ve believed it? What will the (routinely alleged) paymasters in the Embassy do? Why don’t you try the following exercise? Take a word that describes any race or group. Try Irish, Chinese, Arab, Black, Eskimo. All entirely neutral and inoffensive I think you’ll agree. Now try pairing any of the foregoing with a nasty word. Try pervert, bastard, crook,bitch, waster. Do you see where I’m going with this? If so, then have another look at “Zionist stooges” and try telling us all that it’s not a loaded and deeply offensive phrase.

@Charles You said: “I would go further and suggest that in many cases “Zionist” is used as a weasel word to avoid actually saying “Jew””. I avoid the words stooge and shill myself, not because pairing them with other words is offensive, but because they generally constitutes an ad-hominem. But when I say “Zionist”, I mean Zionist, somebody who supports the Zionist movement, which you seem to agree has no inherent suggestion of race.

Random, We seem to be in agreement then that the use of the phrase “Zionist stooges” ( and by “use” I mean to include context) was inappropriate. I believe the juxtapositioning of the two words has particular connotations. On that, it seems, we differ. But some agreement is better than none.

I stand by my comment. Romney and Santourum and Gingrich are all self confessed Christian Zionists and all have pretty much promised a war with Iran if elected. These are facts… I never stated they were Jewish so I’m nit sure why that was brought into the conversation. If people choose to delude themselves that its to protect America and not Israel then so be it. I prefer RPs stance and let Israel do their own warmongerring. They have several hundred warheads to help..

Ed Kavanagh, Looking at your contributions up and down this thread, in addition to “Zionist stooges”, I see ” no smoke without fire about Zionism (sic) control” , Zionists want a Jews only state from The Euphrates to the Nile (not this Zionist!); suggesting ,the Famine was on a par with the Holocaust ( one was criminal negligence , the other was planned extermination of Jews and others). A poor showing. Kids learn to keep the colours within the lines. You should try that yourself.

Charles please see page 3… People believe this crap and use america to get it…

http://www.christianzionism.org/BibleSays/Sizer04.pdf

Whether you believe it or not, a hell of a lot of nut jobs do and these are normally the ones in power…. Rest assured if Iran had US backing it would behave no differently than Israel. The problem is religious extremists…. and calling anybody who questions the religious motives of anybody prejudice is only trying to deflect away.from this..

Ed Kavanagh, You said without qualification that “Zionists want” this geographical area and when challenged you produce a document and refer me to page 3 which refers to what “some Zionists” want. So by picking an example from the fringes (and a viewpoint that I personally would reject, as I believe would most Zionists) you make my point succinctly. You tar all Zionists with the same brush. And you are careless at best in your use of language and imagery. Keep the colours within the lines if you can.

Christian Zionism?? A fringe group of right wing americans. Is this the only link you can provide?? Nothing from Israeli sources or Herzl or any Jewish leader??

Charles, all that matters is that the men with the fingers on the big red buttons believe this sort of Promised land garbage.. It doesnt matter if everybody else doesn’t. I don’t care less what you or anybody else believes… Telling me I am anti Semitic for saying somebody believes this stuff is paranoia and frankly a touch insane. I believe you to be a religious supremacist as you think my beliefs are inferior to yours… and I know if I saw a Muslim, Jew or Christian in need I would help them equally as they are all human in my hate filled mind.. Can put your hand on your supremacist heart and say that… I dearly hope so.

I never said you were anti-Semitic, never.I have very sharp criticism for your use of language. I make no apology for that. I support a two-state solution in the Middle East, as I believe do most Americans and Israelis, including the last two Presidents of the US. I fear that a Palestinian State will have no place for Jews. I believe Israeli Arabs and Christians (and others) will be more secure in Israel than any Jew in a Palestinian State. I believe many Irish pro-Palestinian activists do not support a two state solution. I am no supremacist unless you define support for Israel as supremacist. I would reject that definition.I think you know less about me than you think. For what it’s worth I deal with people of different races, nationalities and religions reasonably often and I believe I treat them all with respect. I have never had a complaint to the contrary. I would prefer not to get into any of that but since you raise the issue that’s what I have to say.

A postscript to my comments yesterday. Ed Kavanagh (and Imran Ali), do you accept that Iran provides material support to Hamas and Hezbollah and was involved in the bombing of a Jewish Community Centre in Argentina in 1994 in which dozens, mostly but not all Jews, we’re killed? I ask because you seem very concerned about threats to Iran because of its nuclear programme and who might have their finger on the button in the USA. I’d be a lot more concerned about the Iranian leadership having a button to push. That doesn’t mean I want to see military action against Iran, I don’t. But I (in common with many Arab states in the region and of course Israel) would not trust the Iranians to have nuclear weapons.And finally Ed, can I enquire, who do you think was behind 9/11?

Charles. I think the likelihood of the regime in Iran using a nuclear warhead on the US/Israel is slim to zero as it would almost certainly be the end of their civilization as we know it… Saying a suicide bomber is similar to Iran doing it as Gingrich said is nonsense… Even if they do manage to procure a bomb which is highly unlikely and keep it for defense it will not stop extremists trying to acquire one from one of the other numerous countries that have them… There can be no justification for doing an Iraq job on Iran other than pure racism and religious supremacy. They are just trying to hide behind the nuke excuse.. As for 911, I certainly don’t believe the official story based on the obvious demolition job on building 7 but I do believe the US was complicit in making it all too easy for hijackers to be successful. It was definitely a false flag event carried out by extremists that under normal circumstances had no chance of success.. If you are expecting me to say Mossad, I have no reason to believe or deny they had involvement in a least intelligence of the plan, and like the US probably nknew it was coming

There are some extremely important differences. Don’t let the fact that both parties are prone to the types of ordinary corruption and graft that follow power everywhere blind you to the fact that the current Republican party, with it’s Tea Party dictated culture, would easily destroy the country itself for the sake of uncompromising ideology.

Both parties used to be dominated by realists who could compromise, and who, at least would hesitate to kill their golden goose – the people, and the economy. Nowadays, such practical conservatives have been run to the fringes of the Republican party. That has been Obama’s main difficulty all along. He still believes in compromise and in dealing, but his opponents seek nothing short of total vanquishment of him and all those he speaks for.

Yes!
Give me ordinary graft and corruption mixed with a bit of realism and practicality, over ordinary graft and corruption mixed with end-of-the-world no-surrender ideology and a fire to reverse all gains ever made in human rights!

Carlin, for all his faults, Obama has done a lot in the area of gay rights. Not as much perhaps as he could have, but infinitely more than any republican would. And if re-elected, my belief is he will explicitly support gay marriage during his second term. Also, I believe democrats are less likely to engage in new land wars.

That’s bizarre. You actually quote the text and simply baldly claim it says the opposite of what you’ve just quoted it as saying! Only the most twisted reading of the phrase “Nothing in this section is intended to limit or expand the authority of the President or the scope of the Authorization for Use of Military Force.” and declare it means that the “or” means it expands and removes all limits!

The wording of the law is very explicit that it does not change the legal rights of citizens in any way, or increase the authority of the Presidency to act against them in any way.

And I’m not ‘defending’ it so much as pointing out factual inaccuracies in criticism of it. If someone wants to criticize it for some provision *actually* in it, then fair enough. I don’t think the NDAA is particularly ‘positive’ as such (beyond the fact that as an annual bill passed every year for half a century or more and that the entire Dept of Defence grinds to a halt without it), but I haven’t been pointed, yet, to anything objectionable in it.

As for Obama, he is, as with all major American politicians too far to the right to be someone I’d vote for if he stood locally with the same policies. But in terms of who is the best choice among the existing US candidates I can’t see anyone standing on a more moral and civilized platform nor, for that matter, one that puts Ireland in a better position. Romney, for instance, has actually mentioned Ireland in terms of, essentially, destroying our economy (he’s mentioned Ireland as the example of a country he’d like federal laws restricting the rights of US multinationals to base operations in). And Paul’s policies, if successfully implemented (and they likely wouldn’t be, with even almost all his fellow Republicans in the Houses hating pretty much everything about them) would tank the world economy into a depression that would make the past few years look like a Disneyland vacation in comparison.

So, yeah, from a purely moral point of view, I’m against the destruction of basic human rights for American citizens and from a more cynical point of view, I’m against the economic carnage that would undoubtedly rebound onto my home nation and myself. Therefore, I’m for Obama.

What’s bizarre is your assertion that I’ve “twisted” anything. Did you actually read my post or are you simply not capable of understanding it? Do you understand what ‘parsing’ means because you clearly don’t put it into practice? Do you know what the word ‘or’ means? Maybe ‘limit’?
I didn’t declare that the ‘or’ means it expands and removes all limits, I pointed out that it allows for the removal of limits. This is a fact.

“I haven’t been pointed, yet, to anything objectionable in it.”
You have, you just fail or refuse to recognise it.

So Obama is moral and civilized? Explain the civility in expansionist US foreign policy which attempts to legitimise the indiscriminate slaughter of hundreds of thousands of innocent people around the world. Explain it to me and then justify it since you appear to approve of it.

Do you really believe in the Republican/Democratic left/right paradigm? All it takes is a simple look at the people who have directed US domestic and foreign policy (not the presidents) to realise they are different strings on the same bow.

You say, “I’m against the destruction of basic human rights for American citizens and from a more cynical point of view, I’m against the economic carnage that would undoubtedly rebound onto my home nation and myself. Therefore, I’m for Obama.”
Are you serious? I shouldn’t have to spell it out but any rational assessment of Obama’s tenure to date must conclude that he’s presiding over exactly what you claim to be against. As for economic carnage rebounding onto your home nation, have you not have looked out your window since 2008?
Support who you like but to avoid a very nasty shock somewhere down the line, may I suggest removing the blinkers.

Romney is a whore. He’s already bought and paid for

What’s lunacy. Return to a gold backed currency or a currency that can be printed freely by the private non federal reserve bank. What’s lunacy. A return to regulated banking under glasstiegel or unbridled gambling lunacy by banker’s who run up unimaginable debts and the get public bailout money. The current policies have us all on the brink of economic Armageddon. I prefer RPs alternative approach as the current one is irreparaby broken…

Yes, don’t let racist Zionists bully anybody with the tired over used antisemitism card.. I couldn’t care less about anybody’s ethnic or religious beliefs unless those beliefs lead them to belief they have higher position in Gods eyes which lets them sh1t over everyone else. There are plenty of Christian And Muslim that think this too, but few have US money backing them

Ed there are plenty of Muslims who believe their religion is superior to ours . That their culture is superior to ours. Very often that is why there is ghettos of Muslims on France and UK. These people have no desire to integrate into a culture which they believe is beneath them. They tolerate Christian and Jewish minorities in their states as long as these minorities seek no rights and pay their dhimini tax. Over 100 thousand Christians have fled Egypt on the last few months . We see Christians being told yesterday to get out of certain villages in Nigeria .

The world is obsessed with Jews and zionists. Look at any article here about Israel . It’s views are huge. Then look at an article that talks about the Syrian crisis, very often there will be very little views and next to know comments. But if a Jew killed an Arab there would be huge numbers reading it and talking about the evils of “Zionism” and their control of the world and it’s media. There have been thousands of deaths in Syria . Yet we have not seen anything like the protests we saw worldwide during cast lead .

Ed. I don’t see zionists bully too many people. I generally find those that belittle anti semitic abuse or say the holocaust is over used . Are those who are the very ones who like to swap the age old anti Jewish phrases and pop in the now politically correct term Zionism. There is huge anti Semitic abuse going on. From occupy wall street to even this page. The moderators turn a blind eye even when blatantly racist anti Jewish comments were made yesterday. Never a day goes by when someone doesn’t bring up Zionism . And the Jews . Almost everyday I witness abuse on a huge scale towards Jews and I can see why Irish Jews try keep there heads down and many feel that while many Irish are pro Palestinian a line has been crossed which makes many Irish Jews feel very uncomfortable. The old stereotypes their grandparents listened to in Lithuania and Russia are coming back to haunt Jews here. Of course the word Jew is never used. But it’s swapped for zionist. As soon as you highlight that a particular comment sounds like something out of the protocols of Zion. The mantra “not all Zionist are Jews and not all Jews are Zionist” is hashed out. It’s beyond predictable .

And ed your Ron Paul . Whom I also like has said Israel should be free to attack Iran if it needs to. He said Israel should not be answerable to Washington . Now does this alter your opinion of him ??

Firstly there’s no smoke without fire when it comes to Zionism control and I have no issue with Israel sorting out its own neighbours without having the US being the dumb fall guy

No smoke without fire ???? That’s it all those pesky Jews hiding behind the scenes creating utter destruction so as to profit off their gentile slaves.

See Barry, that’s the problem with having debates with people like you on this topic. Whenever anyone utters even a word against the Zionist ideology, you automatically start screaming “anti-semite” or very strongly insinuate it. Not everyone who questions the Israeli government and their relationship with the US is a Jew-hating Nazi, who tries to perfect his one-arm salute in the bathroom mirror each morning. You make no distinction between Jew and Zionist, which points either to your stupidity or dishonesty.

And I find it very hard to believe Irish Jews are being abused by Irish people. I suppose it depends on what you call ‘abuse’. If it’s abuse that they must listen to some people criticize the Israel government, then I’d say they might not want to so sensitive. Rarely have I heard someone say “those damn Jews in Palestinian would want to go home”…. It’s ALWAYS against the government or the Zionist ideology. Irish Jews by their own definition cannot be Zionists because they choose to remain in Ireland. So stop being so dramatic, you even went as far as to say to Irish society is developing the same attitudes as those that Irish Jews’s ancestors tried to escape from. Please. Cop yourself on, you’re stirring up fear when there is no need.

Another tactic used by you is to bring up the way some Muslims carry on. Is that really part of your argument? that’s the kind of thing I’d expect a child to say “He hit me first”. Another problem is that you don’t realise that the Palestinians are a group no-one gives a shit about, not Israel, the US or and other Arab country. So you banging on about Muslims in France really is a non-starter.

Irish people take the side of the under-dog because that’s who we resonate with. Israel is at the same side of the spectrum as the old enemy here. You cannot change that, no matter how hard you scrape the bottom of your barrel, looking for any ol’ dirt you can throw to guilt people into seeing things your way

Imran seriously what are you even on about??
Barry said already some Jews are not Zionist but he is correct. Most Jews live in Israel and America. You go to Australia and the Aussie Jewish community is hugely pro Israel.I don’t see where Barry threw out any accusation of anti Semitism for no reason.If people like Ed are going to use the age old N,W.O conspiracy theory BS and substitute the word Jew for Zionist all the time. Then yes he is an anti Semitic person.
He can claim to be agnostic etc. I think I have met a fair few agnostics who despise Israel .Yet show no such level of hate towards one single Islamic state. People go on about Israel being a created state. So was Pakistan. Its a create Islamic state,

Tactics???? Seriously what is there some sort of plan again of the secret Masonic and Zionist movement to pull the wool over your eyes.Lol

See Mr Music, there it is again. I mention the word “tactic” and you automatically assume I’m wearing a tin-foil hat. That’s a very powerful tool you also have, along with the well worn “anti-semite” card. It’s absolutely impossible to have a logical debate with someone who has all these pre-conceptions about someone who raises this issue. When I debate this topic, I prefer to call into question the legaltiy of the occupation, the treatment of Palestinians, the unwavering support of the US, the violation of various sanctions, and the absolute ridiculousness of the notion that some mystical being in the sky chose a bunch of Jews as his favourite. And probably more importantly, the justification of forcefully removing the indigenous population to make room for European, American and even Chinese Jews (?????).

If you want to debate that, then no problem, bud.

Barry, and probably you, are prime examples of pro-Israel types who cover their eyes and ears when Israel does something wrong yet shouts at the top their voice when they can show the other side in the wrong.

And as I said, it’s not really an argument to talk about the business of other countries to defend Israel’s actions….Some would argue that as a westernised country, Israel should try to behave more civilised

Imran you encourage debate??? Lol anyone who reads your posts all they see is personal attacks and snide comments.You don’t debate any facts and might I add the Jew are also indigenious to that land. No one has pulled the wool over my eyes.I went to the West Bank with a view that Oh Israel is an evil occupier etc etc etc. I came home with a very really awakening of the situation there. Langers like you rabbit off all they like beside the Lee I don’t care. End of the day.I do alot more to support Israel than you do to oppose it. I can assure you of that.People like you only reinforce my belief I view your biggotry and abuse as fodder to continue my strong beliefs in Zionism

If you ever really did bother to read my comments, then you would see that I have no problem with the state of Israel existing, with defined borders. I think Israelis born in Israel have every right to stay there, as any one else. My number 1 issue is the continued emigration to Israel and the settlers on occupied land. Israel wants sympathy for a few rocket attacks, when she does nothing but provoke retaliation with continued expansion? Lol…. You can’t claim to be right of mind and agree with that.

All I ask is for your opinion on the settlements and bulldozing of the indigenous population, since you have been there and “seen the light”…..perhaps you can help me understand what’s going on?

*as anyone else born and raised in any other country

GGGGrrr. I wrote a really long comment.
Israel does demolish houses. but while we always see videos of Bedouin homes being bulldozed. We never see the large number of illegal Jewish homes being bulldozed. Of which there are many hundreds a year,.
As for the Bedouin.Like our travellers they are nomadic and like here lack basic facilities. but the Bedouin men serve in the IDF and serve as Israeli Ambassador in the Consulate in LA. There are alot of Jewish groups helping them and investing in female led enterprises,.

As for the settlements.Its a fact the borders will include land swaps. It simply has to.There is an awful lot of politics in housing. There are Islamic charities funding Arabs to build homes in the Negev and West Jerusalem and of course there are settlements. Under the Oslo Accord Israel was given control of certain areas of land .Building on this land is not illegal.

But like Gaza and Like Egypt.Israel has and will pull up settlements for the hope of peace. Peace is not an easy thing. There is an awful lot of history but there are peace groups in Israel. Sadly I see too little peace groups in the Palestinian Territories and I honestly believe the Palestinian best PR would be to elect the most pro peace prime minister ever. This would dispell any attempts by anyone in Israel to say the Palestinians are disingenious about peace. As that is the belief with Abbas as the current President.Sometimes calling peoples bluff is the best thing forward.
I think most Jewish groups in America support the 2 state solution and if an Israel PM walked away from a genuine offer of peace I honestly hand on my heart think Israeli’s themselves would be disgusted and American Jews would turn on him or her.This is just my gut feeling from the Israeli’s I know. Israeli’s are viewed here as some sort of evil war mongering race. I can honestly saw.They are strong people a bit like the French.Patriotic like the Americans and drink like the Irish but they do want peace. Most iSRAELI’s like many in the North are sick of violence .They want to get on with their lives and do what everyone else does,

Yes, I do know Israel up-roots settlements on occasion, and I’ve seen the reactions of the settlers. Simple mathematics dictates that in order to sustain a policy of welcoming ‘home’ Jews from around the world, then obviously a disproportionately larger numbers of Palestinians must be removed to make way. And logic would dictate that in order to make settlement more attractive, the most fertile of land must be confiscated. I think it’s unfair to liken the Bedouin to travellers at this point in time, and even more so to suggest that the only homes being demolished and lands being taken are those of the Bedouin. Israeli settlements in the West bank divide families, cut off farmers from their lands, are the cause of flashpoints of violence between well-armed settlers and Arabs…..Not to mention the humiliating and degrading treatment of those simply wishing to move around.

You clearly have more faith than I do in the Israeli leaderships desire for a secure peace. From what I see, the Israeli government is asking for something it knows it will not get, as long as Israel continues settlement. It asks for recognition as a state, yet has disputed borders. It asks for peace talks without pre-conditions, with her mighty army ready on one side, while ordering in bulldozers on the other. And I have as little faith in accords, resolutions and mandates as Israel shows it has respect for. Israel has no interest in abiding by international laws if it does not suit them.

Of course many Israelis want peace, many probably wish Israel stopped welcoming people “home”… Some are probably so disgusted at some of their countries actions, they are ashamed. But let there be no doubt, there are hardliners in that country, and not without significant influence, that want to see all of ancient Israel in their possession.

I must also say I somewhat disagree with your earlier point that Jews are also indigenous to that land. I think with the time that has passed so has the statute of limitations on that one.

Can I ask, how many Palestinian families, farmers and the like did you visit and speak to when you went there?

And on mutually agreed land swaps…. If you look at a map of the west bank settlements. you will see that it is impossible to have a two-state solution.

You address the settlements Imran under great scrutiny as a major flaw in the Israeli government and as being an obstacle to peace. Have you addressed the acts of war waged on Israeli civilians by rocket attacks and other provocations?

Furthermore, what statute of limitations are you talking about? We are not talking about medical negligence claims and Mary Harney has no power to curtail any middle eastern legislation, she has no power here in Ireland for that matter.

We roll back, but not back far enough is that what you mean? We go a la carte to suit a particular agenda, any agenda other than one which sees some fairness to Israel?

Here’s another one, that IDF has some neck….. Appealing a ban on human sheilds….. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4333982.stm

And, isn’t it strange that Israel say Hamas use human sheilds themselves, yet they think that if the IDF use Palestinian shields, somehow Hamas won’t attack them?

Lol, crazy Israelis

Imran Ali, If you think there is no hostility to Jewish people as such in Ireland then you are mistaken.It may not be widespread or mainstream but it’s there. I personally have heard someone (a professional person, for what that matters) say that his only problem with Hitler was that he didn’t finish the job! I have heard many less offensive but clearly racist things said about Jews (not Israelis). I have heard terrible things said about other groups and races also, both here and elsewhere, but that is not the topic under discussion (come to think of it I thought the topic was the Iowa Caucuses but there you are- sometimes it seems all roads lead in one direction). And on the subject of antisemitism, as I pointed out earlier, it did not begin with the establishment of the State of Israel. It’s been around a lot longer than that. So maybe some dislike of Jews or Zionists is a reaction to events of the last 60 years or so. But what about the previous centuries? For the record, I am not accusing anyone on this thread of being antisemitic and I do not regard all criticism of Israel as antisemitic. But I do wish people would be more careful with their use of language.Loose words and poorly -framed comparisons can give a certain impression.

Of course there’s always going to be an element of racism in all societies, I can’t see how Jews are victimised any more so than any other group. Just because you heard someone, of status you claim, say that Hitler should have finished the job is not really a barometer of Irish opinion as a whole….. You’ll always meet some fool, no matter how education or well-bred who harbours such thoughts….Yet if you ask him to share his views openly toward a Jewish person, he will refuse in shame. Those types of people are nothing to worry about at all. Until we have skinheads marching down the street I wouldn’t worry too much. As a person of colour, I myself am fully aware of the mostly ignorant and harmless racism that people may have to put up with in this society sometimes, but I point blank refuse to accept there is a major underlying, more sinister element brewing up here. Ignorance and stupidity? yes,…. sinister? No. There is no problem in Ireland toward Jews…. Yes there is widespread disdain here toward Israel, but is not to say Jews in Ireland will be attacked for the actions of Israel.

As for message boards such as these, I have never heard anyone come out and explicitly state that Jews are an issue that must be dealt with. I have heard people talk about conspiracies… and Zionists controlling Washington, Hollywood and the world banking system. I can’t see the problem in asking how such a small ethnic group have become so powerful in the world today. That’s not anti-semetic. That’s fact. Maybe they really are God’s chosen people. Anyway, I wouldn’t be here today if it wasn’t for a German Jew fleeing to Ireland from persecution in the 30s, but I don’t accept Zionism and I never will. As long as Jews are living comfortably in Ireland, they should have no need for Zionism. It’s not like any other Irish people have the right to decide they want a piece of the Middle East…. But that’s just my opinion.

Imran. The Jews have suffered hugely in Europe and indeed in North Africa and even today in Yemen,The Cork Synagogue had childrens shoes left outside it in 2006 during the Lebanon war. This was a common act highlighting the death of children in Lebanon. Yet the person who did this could not see the difference between Israeli’s and Cork Jews. There has been anti Semitism in ireland. All synagogues in Ireland have security while services are running and the Jewish museum has had swastika’s sprayed on it a number of years ago.
But its not so much actions. Its comments on places like here and boards.ie when people rehash the same phrases Irish Jews grandparents fled from Russia from.Except now the word Zionist has been used instead of in their grandparents time.Jew was used. Zionist money,Zionist media,Zionist taking over the world.Zionists killing little babies.

Irish Jews that I have spoken to are aware of the security and generally have a “keep your head down” attitude . The were urged by the Jewish Council in Dublin not to publically speak out for Israel. And most Irish Jews say while they may not agree with the actions of the likes of the ipsc.Those sort of groups in the last 4 years have become vicious. I have a friend who is a journalist who works in a well known radio station here. I witnessed the faxes and emails of vile hate he got. I was once in the Israeli Embassy and was shown some of the faxes they got as they came into work.Vile Vile Vile hate. I doubt anyone who spoke out for Pakistan or Kurds or Turks would get such abuse. My friend was accused of being a zionist puppet and told he would get what he deserved and be taken off air.
i myself despite not being Jewish. Used to have my email public.The abuse I received from Irish Muslims (Mainly converts who emailed me) IRA heads and general so called Lefties who are in fact modern day fascists as anything that is not their opinion is automatically wrong and evil. The far left in Ireland are begining to sound like the Catholic church. With their moral dictations.

You spoke earlier about Israel should not have the right to bring people “home”. Let me put it this way to you Imran. Someone with an Irish granny can claim Irish citizenship and move here. In Japan they had a shortage of workers.So they went out of their way to seek Japanese ethnic communities abroad and paid them to move back to Japan.This happened a lot in Brazil where there is a huge ethnic Japanese community.Numerois countries do this. They bring their ancestors back home or award them privilages to come home.As for a lack of space in Israel. Rubbish.Half the place there is no one living in. Huge space in the north and south where no one lives at all.

As for Jews doing well and there being a lot of Jewish bankers and fashion designers. Firstly in the Middle ages Christians were banned from money lending and the rag trade .Jews were banned from many other trades so they took up the above. There also used to be court Jews. Jews who entertained royalty etc. So that is why I believe you will find a lot of Jewish bankers etc.Its almost cultural. Jewish dentists .This came from during times of persecution Jews needed a trade they could move with and set up somewhere else.Dentistry is a great trade. Also the Jews like some other ancient civilisations were technically far more advanced than the general population. So they have had a history of literacy and learning.Which i suppose stands to them,

They are a minority so its easier to care for their “own”. Here in Ireland. The Protestant community have their own version of St Vincent De Paul .They have grants for poorer Protestants to go to school and college. There is general support from the wealthier for the poorer. Its the same with the Jewish community .Who have many of their own welfare groups. Also up until 50 years ago.Most Jews were quite insular. They kept within their community. They arrived in Ireland. Worked as peddlars. Saved and saved.Set up a shop.Saved and saved some more and then pushed their child through education.Jews are no different from pushy sub continent and Chinese parents. Whom all seem to have bright spark children who all become solicitors and doctors and dentists. Immigrants often display a level of entreprenuership and work ethic the native community lack.
When I hear people talk about rich Jews I laugh. More than 20 per cent of Australia’s Jews live in poverty.Its the same in America. There are many poor Jews in Russia and Ukraine and indeed in Israel. Its a small community of 13 million people.Yes they have done well for themselves.Yes Jews have won more Nobel Peace prizes than other ethnic/religious groups but that isn’t a negative. In fact for me.I look at everything Jews have been through and think wow. Look how far they have come. Thats what made me respect and admire so much about world Jewry and indeed Israel itself.

So Imran Ali, when you said “ALWAYS” in big bold capitals earlier what you really meant was “nearly always” and “not to such an extent as should actually worry anyone.” As you said yourself yesterday, it’s not all black and white.Remember that the next time you’re tempted to put the caps lock on.

Yes I do. But what’s worse is I think you think your not . I have met your sort who go on about Zionist plots and control and money. It’s exactly what was said about Jews prior to the pograms in Russia. A whole generation has grown up believing zionism is the root cause of all evil in the world . The fact is if there were no Israel people would find some other way for
Blaming Jews . if Israel did not exist there still would not be peace in the entire world . There still would be Arab dictators and Islamic radicals who hated western culture

Good Grief…You have giant chip. Jews are by no means the only persecuted people on the planet. The Irish were wiped out in the famines but I don’t carry that around with me and accuse every Brit of hating me because I am Irish and we had history. I will leave you to your paranoia and only hope for your case the US stays your backup because with and attitude like that you are going to need the planet to yourself before your happy. Goodnight..

No chip on my shoulder. But I will say us Irish seem to believe we were the only ones occupied and while countries like India seems to be able to move on Ireland isn’t able to.
I’ll need the hole world???? What are u even on about. U are an anti Semite your going on about Zionist plots and smoke screens and planning to take over land etc. all horsesht with no evidence .its hilarious . So yeah go along there now and good night

Imran. Bring it to that level to get your point across attack the post not the poster.

Barry take Valium or something before have a hernia. Change of subject. So what did you think of Liverpool getting hammered. I reckon we could be good friends and would have some lively discussion. Nothing too heated mind… Wouldn’t want to fall out…. This time I really am off to bed. Its 20 past midnight here…

That would be rather more convincing if delivered by someone other than a long time apologist for Kim Jong-Il! (Not that there aren’t elements of truth in *some* of that)