Aciu labai. Peace in our time.

The fact is it was British territory.. if it hadn’t been British territory there wouldn’t have been over 3000 murders .
I don’t understand your objection in that specific instance.

Occupied territory would be more accurate.

I noticed that too… it honestly doesn’t read like it was written by anyone on this side of the water.

The article clearly states that both sides committed murders. I don’t see any blame apportioned to either side. Perhaps you can point it out to me.

Not really Madeline, you’re not being objective. Do a sentence count. That will help.

That article is far less biased, it also has a different first victim. if that last part doesn’t show the inherent bias in this article I don’t know what does

Are you serious? Mostly refers to the majority numerically. 2170 by Anti- British forces , 1000 odd by anti- Irish and over 300 by the British army. Therefore the majority ( or most) were committed by anti-British forces.
Do you need this explained?
Is that what you consider to be this heinous bias??

Madeline, all the murders were wrong ….
But if the sentence below had been written differently, then maybe there wouldn’t be so many people up in arms, excuse the pun …
“In all, the Provisional IRA and other anti-British paramilitary groups have killed about 2,170 people, including more than 160 of their own members”;

Try this on for size…..
” Groups fighting British military presence in the North accounted for 2100 killings…. Groups fighting Pro-Irish in the North accounted for 1600 killings (These groups included British Army, Police force, and Loyalist paramilitary groups with British government support)”

Then i dont think anyone would have objected. It is not telling an untruth, and it is balanced in what it is saying.

Posted this in the wrong place. Reply to Cal.
“Cal,
this is supposed to be a tribute to all the murdered not a SF/IRA press release.
There are no untruths in the article as written by the Journal. You have yet to point out one factual inaccuracy or example of bias that makes sense..
You don’t think anyone would object to your quote…you must be joking..
I obviously can’t speak for the intent of the person who wrote this but I can’t see any untruths there .Not a single one. I’ll ask again. Point out the untruths.
You might be trying some kind of SF vote saving exercise but that doesn’t mean there is bias. The fact that you’re worried that some people might infer there is means you’ve spent ages penning terrorist apologies. Shameful.”

Madeline, i have never seen you once condemn the murders carried out by the British Army or the security forces… or demanding inquiries into the likes of Dublin/Monaghan or Ballymurphy. Before you go pointing fingers at anyone else, have a good look inside yourself first.

Madeline unfortunately you are mistaken, of course I condone all terrorism. But frankly I sympathize with the nationalist community as they were subject to near Nazi/apartheid conditions, history has unfortunately been told one sided leaving out the devastating conditions the nationalist community lived in at that time. We must remember all victims catholic/protestant and continue to live in peace.

Well said Diana, but unfortunately people like Madeline only see their own view of the conflict… and that conflict says that IRA bad, and everybody else good. Even though this is totally revisionist of what the conflict was about. No side was totally right, and no side was totally wrong. Was the Queen right to pin medals on all the murderers from Bloody Sunday?? Was the IRA right to set off at a bomb at Enniskillen? Were the Loyalists right to target only civilians in their terror campaign? No side was right … Murder is murder is murder. Those days are thankfully behind us. The violence for the most part ended almost 20 years ago. Unfortunately, some people will not let it go and live with hate in their hearts and it clouds their minds to this day. Other people (especially Politicians) use it as a reason to beat the like of SF in the South while at the same time, demanding Unionist partiies and SF to share power in the North. Hypocritical and Cynical parties unfortunately still engage this in order to maximise their own vote and deflect attention away from the issues that are affecting ordinary citizens on this Island. And considering that the very vast majority of under 30′s were either too young or not even born at the time of the war ending are really fed up with this approach.

Dianna you CONDONE all terrorism…Jesus Christ!

@Madeline apologies it’s supposed to read condemn, do you not have anything else to say?.

@Cal Yes I totally agree, it’s sad & shocking that some people refuse to acknowledge loyalist & other atrocities, but yet they do for the latter.

Dianna, the article clearly states that the first person murdered was killed by a British Protestant..how can you possiblyy interpret that as ignoring the loyalist crimes. Statistics are given. No-one is ignoring history and there is no attempt to smear the IRA (as if that would be possible).

Again Madeline you continue to ignore the facts, how can you genuinely think that this article is not biased. I have already condemned the IRA but I have yet to see you condemn the Unionist government for their actions at this time and the loyalist paramilitary groups. This article should be about remembering ALL victims not just some. It’s not about religion so can you please just halt you’re worrying one sided extremist attitude.

Madeline, cortrect me if i am wrong, but when the Bloody Sunday Saville inquirey results came out … (similar to Mahon and Moriartty in that, all 3 tribunals managed to tell us something that the vast majority of honest people on this Island already knew), and it found that the British Parashoot regiment murdered 14 people on that day, you managed to make some commentary to the effect that did not condemn the murders as you suggested some the the murdered civilians may have been carrying weapons. This was the same parashoot regiment that murdered 12 people over 3 days in Ballymurphy less than a year previously. Not one person was ever charged with the murders of any of these 26 people. In fact the Queen gave each and every one of them medals, and the British government promoted the leaders to the highest military office in the British Army for tyheir bravery in murdering the 25 unarmed civilians. Can yuo not bring yourself to condemn the Queen and the British Government and the British Army for the terrorism they perpetrated on the Irish in the North? It was these 2 incidents (Ballymurphy and Bloody Sunday) that caused the IRA to get support in the North. Prior to that they were considered with the same views as the current dissidents are (ie murdering scum with no support from the public). After Bloddy Sunday and Ballymurphy, the majority of Natinalist youth turned to the IRA to get armed to defend them,selves and their families. This is fact. In my comments above, i condemned all murders, by the IRA, by the Loyalists and by the British security forces. If you want to condemn SF today for the war that ended 20 years ago, then by exactly the same reckoning, you must condemn the Queen and successive British governments for suopporting the British security forces terrorist campaign against the Irish civilian population from the same time period.

Dianna,
the article IS remembering all victims. How do you not see that?
How am I ignoring the facts?
The fact is 3700murders were committed..all of them indefensible.
Why do you say its not about religion? nobody claimed it was. I’ve never mentioned religion.
Perhaps you can point out where the article doesn’t honour every person murdered.

Cal,
this is supposed to be a tribute to all the murdered not a SF/IRA press release.
There are no untruths in the article as written by the Journal. You have yet to point out one factual inaccuracy or example of bias that makes sense..
You don’t think anyone would object to your quote…you must be joking..
I obviously can’t speak for the intent of the person who wrote this but I can’t see any untruths there .Not a single one. I’ll ask again. Point out the untruths.
You might be trying some kind of SF vote saving exercise but that doesn’t mean there is bias. The fact that you’re worried that some people might infer there is means you’ve spent ages penning terrorist apologies. Shameful.

Madeline … Your anti-Irish, pro-civilan murder stance is sickening …
I condemned ALL the murders in this and every other thread. You just cant bring yourself to condemn the murders of Irish people by the British Army and condemn the handing out of medals by the Queen to the same murderers. Please, please, please, share with us… I have condemned the murders by the IRA on multiple occassions. Will you please let everyone else know (i have already asked 3 times on this thread already for a resoponse from you) why you wont condemn the civilian murders carried out by the British Army, with the support of the British Governments and Queen? And by the way, i am not a member of SF, never have been, and never will be. I will vote for the parties that make most sense to me, at any given point in time.

Cal,
Yes ALL the murders were wrong. Finally!
I don’t see any posts making excuses for or attempting to justify murders by the UVF. Just the IRA. hence my comment that the “SF/IRA apologists are out in force”. A comment which you’ve attempted to disprove .by making excuses for the murders of the IRA !.
Or do you think that a tribute to the murdered should be about excusing the crimes?
Perhaps the people who’ve accused me of ignoring facts could point out the facts I’ve ignored.

Madeline, its late, i cant do this all night… I put everything in context. The IRA were not out murdering in 1966, 67, 68. 3 years the Irish people in the North were being targetted for just being Irish. Were the IRA right to murder civilians…. NO WAY. There is no justification for the murders of civilians. I dont see how anyone on tis thread suggested otherwise. When you put in context that the Irish were being murdered and not allowed to march for civil rights, it puts everything in context. It is not an apology. How you can think that it is, is beyond me. The fact that the Queen was recognised and applauded for coming here in 2011 is hypocritical, when you personally condemn SF in its current form, for pursuing the democratic and political path. The war is over. Bad things were done by the British and IRA. Its time to move on and let the past guide us to a better future. Dont let yur hate of SF get in the way of acknowledging the good they are trying to do in 2012. I applauded the British for their work in supporting the Good Friday agreement. I applauded the good work done by the Unionist population in sharing power with the Irish in the North. I know this was hard for both. I also know it was hard for SF to convice the IRA to pursue an entirely peaceful path also. This is not apologist. This is fact. You should now remember the past and accept the present. Dont let hate rule your approach to life as it is now.

Cal,
are you serious? How am I anti- Irish? Pro-civilian murder? That is a disgusting and libellous claim.
As I have attempted to make clear on numerous occasions this thread is supposed to be about honouring all those murdered by all parties during the troubles. Its not about excusing, justifying or rationalising those crimes. As I write this no-one on this thread has attempted to justify the murders by anyone on the Loyalist / British side ( unless somebody posts one as I write this). My comment was ” its repellent for supporters of one group of murderers to say their crimes are somehow less terrible than those of another group of terrorists” . Which side am I failing to condemn there????
Your personal attacks are bizarre and growing increasingly nonsensical. I am quite disturbed by the way that you continue to target me.
No-one has shown me genuine bias in the article or factually inaccuracy or illustrated which facts I have supposedly ignored.

To be 100% clear Madeline, you think the Queen was wrong in awarding medals to all the British Army personnel involved in the murders of the 26 people murdered by the Para’s at Bloody Sunday and Ballymurphy? A yes/no would be so enlightening! There have been many statements in this thread saying IRA murders were wrong. I just want a Yes/No answer from you on the above question. No smoke and mirror waffle answers…. I will repeat the question once more….
To be 100% clear Madeline, you think the Queen was wrong in awarding medals to all the British Army personnel involved in the murders of the 26 people murdered by the Para’s at Bloody Sunday and Ballymurphy?

Cal,
I genuinely don’t know what you’re on about. You accuse me of being pro-civilian murder. Do you actually understand what you’re saying? You’re saying that you think I believe that murdering civilians is a good thing!!
I don’t know how I can make this simpler to understand. I condemn all murder irregardless of “context” or who carried it out or who was killed. 3700 people were killed ( if the Journal’s figures are correct) and they are all wrong. Every single one of them, I don’t care what the IRA’s reasons were, or SF’s reasons were, or the UVF’s reasons were or the RUC’s or the Paras reasons were or anybody else. I’m sure every one who has ever killed in any conflict can offer context, or extenuating circumstances or excuses or whatever you want to call it.. It might be true and it might not but none of them make the deaths any less tragic.
I’m not justifying any side..you are. The article makes clear that the first murder was committed by Loyalists.. I’m sure they have “context” as well. I don’t care what it is and nobody is posting it. Just the IRA/ SF lot.
Why mention the Queen?
Yes I hate SF. I hate pretty much every political party here but I hate SF the most. Don’t think that if the Paras or the BRits tried to meddle in our politics I wouldn’t tell them to fuck off as well.

CAL,
oh God every time I answer a question you’ve posted another one by the time my answer appears Anybody reading this thread is going to find it all over the place. It’s after midnight.!!
I have *N*E*V*E*R* felt anything but contempt for the Paras who murdered those 26, just as I have N*E*V*E*R* felt anything but contempt for all murderers. I don’t know how to be any clearer. If you still can’t see that then its your problem not mine.
This isn’t about who I condemn its about who some people on here defend .

Madeline, the IRA are history. SF are now. To keep bringing two seperate entitiies up in the same sentence is like saying the British Government/Parashoot regiment is nuts. Its like saying FFg/Facist, its like saying FF/IRA, or labour/IRA. Why do you keep going on, on every single thread about it? SF, depending on the poll being carried out, are now the second most popular or 3rd most popular party in the country. I dont agree with all their policies, but i agree with a lot of them. Some people are trying to tie the past, to the present. They are trying to create a division in this country based on historical issues, that have nothing to do with the here and now. If you were a member of one of the 3 established parties in the country (FFg/FF/Labour), i would understand your approach to try and continue with the rhetoric. But, the ordinary person in the south is waking up to the fact this country needs something different. In the North, SF received more popular votes than any other party at the last election. Do you think, all these SF voters support murder and mayhem? No we don’t. We vote based on policies that affect us and our children. We dont vote based on an historical association.

Cal,
This thread is about honouring all of those who lost their lives whether Irish, British, American, Spanish or unborn twins in the womb. Show some respect for the dead and stop making party political statements on behalf of SF.
My thoughts are with all of those lost and those that love them , be they civilian, soldier or policeman of any nationality. That’s what’s important to me. .

Madeline: you say you’re not anti-Irish.

I assumed you were anti-Irish, in fact I assumed you were a stuck-in-the-past loyalist/unionist based on your contributions on this and other threads. Perhaps others are also confused.