@Sue. So why do you work? Or why did you have children?

Tax relief. Unfortunately, you’ll get that money taxed on you again by the left to pay for the entitlement systems and unions of this broke nation.

My thoughts exactly.

Frank, come on wasn’t it Phil Hogan that said he couldn’t live on anything less than 80,000 plus allowances. You wouldn’t want to see him struggling?

Strangling him on the other hand…. ;-)

By the way 100% agree with you!

I think you would be very surprise at how high those expenses are!

I for one would love to see who the non secure bond holders are. I think if we did we would be even more disgusted with our “government”.

We should have told the EU to feck off and burnt the non secure bond holders. What would they have done? Refused to loan us money? We crash, the euro crashes!

Well said Mary

Is means testing an option? Doesn’t it cost too much to facilitate? Just when they’re looking at trying to save money.

Very simple suggestion: any family with income in top tax band not to be eligible.

Cost free.

But is it fair?

Or how about cut payments to thoes over 16 or 17, this would create more savings, is easy to implement and most 16 to 18 year olds work part time or could work part time.

why not tax it? it could be raised slightly to compensate lower earners and its cheaper than means testing

My concern here is the Ireland becomes an even more ‘welfare state’ where one cohort of people pay into the tax system and get minimal return while another huge cohort contribute very little and benefit the most. I would be more inclined to issue vouchers etc. as I have seen first hand where a lot of child benefit ends up and no question the lower down the social ladder you go the more this is the case. Can’t see too many middle class mothers using child benefit to buy fags or booze……
Lets give the money to the children via food or education or clothing.

They can means test for medical cards, fuel allowance, fis, dole, back to school allowance. I am sure it wouldn’t take much effort to record that info together so that a simple programme with the info could determine if a family were eligible or not for CA. Another case of lack of joined up thinking IMO

@Jay funk I have two kids 18 and 20 and they can’t find jobs – either full or part time. the best they’ve gotten was a part time summer job for a few months. They’ve been looking for two years now.

400,000 plus unemployed and you’re suggesting that we cut child allowance at 16 because they might have a part time job, unreal!

While a child is still in secondary school they should be given child allowance. The cost of our “free educations” dictates this this.

@KarlMarcks: I take it so that you are on the low tax rate or claiming benefits? Would I be right in that? I’m guessing that I am, so it’s easy for you to say that. We’ve lost two kids from the child allowance in the past 3 years and another one will be gone in a year eventhough he will still be in school doing his leaving cert. With the lost of this extra income and the increase in all other taxes we are bearly keeping our heads above the water line. Next year is going to be even harder!

The government should look at cutting their own allowance first, €764 paid in allowances to Oireachtas members in August and they weren’t evening sitting. How much would we save if we removed Oireachtas completely?

Jim Buckley Barrett,

I agree with you. But I previously read your comments and you are anti-SF. Yet, you will still vote for a government that cuts child benefit, hypocritical.

@ Jim: “How much would we save if we removed Oireachtas completely?”

€120m.

http://www.politics.ie/news/annual-report-reveals-oireachtas-cost-119-9-million-run-last-year-351.html

@Declan. That is the most class discriminatory comment i have ever seen and it stinks to be honest. Middleclass mothers prefer wine. See where I am going.

Tell the working there is something they can put on the end of it

Tell the working class there is something they can put on the end of it

Voucher system ? I’m sick of hearing that old chestnut ! I try to pay most things with my laser card I can’t even use my card in some shops because once its under €10 they don’t accept card payment, would your local coal man accept vouchers ? Nope ! stupid conservative people thinking every one buys fags & drink! I clothe and feed my kids with it

Voucher system ? I’m sick of hearing that old chestnut ! I try to pay most things with my laser card I can’t even use my card in some shops because once its under €10 they don’t accept card payment, would your local coal man accept vouchers ? Nope ! stupid conservative people thinking every one buys fags & drink! I clothe and feed my kids with it

That would require backbone! Something the Irish political parties don’t have. Here is a suggestion on the bondholders pay it, but tax it at 99% then they are not getting burnt.
Reduce TDs pay to ?50K, tax TD expenses and if they fail to attend Dail sittings reduce their pay by same percentage of the sittings missed.

Do you see that state run education is a nightmare? It’s free and this is the best they can do.

The taxes you pay is actually just you paying for (second-rate) education. Wouldn’t you be better off having a choice of schools to send your child and having significantly lower taxes?

our children’s future?!

so who genuinely needs it? unemployed? immgrant Africans? eastern Europeans?

Well Ciaran do you think someone earning say 50 grand upwards deserves or needs it. I don’t.

Your facts are incorrect. the ash cloud had a negligible effect on welfare claims.

Ridiculous comment. I had several foreign employees that were based in Ireland but travelled abroad for their work & claimed child benefit in Ireland. They were only in the country once or twice a month & still got their benefit. What the hell has the ashcloud got to do with child benefit. Urban myths,this country is full of them. Where do ye get them from?

those working should get a significant tax credit because they are creating employment through child minders fees…

The payment should be scrapped and the money used to pay for school books, uniforms and improved education for kids and childcare for the children of working parents. That way we know that the money is going directly to children and not squandered in any way.

Well said Yvonne!!

That’s it John.
Free school.
Free books.
Free uniforms.
Free lunch.
Free schoolbus.

Education is the key to escaping the poverty cycle. Don’t give a penny of cash to the parents but provide free quality services to their children.

Good points Yvonne… I for one am sick of paying for a cohort of people who just expect to be given money for free… We need to sort out our SW issue. Thats the real issue in Ireland

John and Ciaran have come up with a superb idea. Id much rather free education.

Yvonne I see you left out the unemployed or are you one of them who Blame then for being unemployed hence the let them starve attitude.

Even if we weren’t paying the bondholders we would still not be paying our way and we would still be cutting.
Harsh but true.

Means testing was mentioned a few weeks back.

As to your idea of using computers and PPSN to create an integrated system between government departments. It seems obvious and simple, so of course it cannot happen.

As I understand it, the problem with means testing is that it creates wealth traps.
If for example the cut off point for eligibility was €500 a week then nobody with a young family would take a job offering €490 and quite right too. They would be mad.

I would support the idea of cutting it, if I felt that the money save was put directly into children’s services but I fear that a cut will be just that, a cut.

I am a recent graduate who is out of work and so is most of the 100 people in my class. A graduate tax will only work when people are able to get jobs.
But I do believe that if the people who decide to go to college should pay a graduate tax, then the people who decide to have children should not recive money for those children.

I agree. Cutting the pensions of past government leaders to a modest amount would automatically save the country money

Well said Gemma

Chase the runaway fathers and put even more money in to the pockets of the family law system operators.

Don’t forget the runaway mothers too Gemma.

They need to be chased just as bad.

I agree 100% Damien, I guess I just don’t personally know of any cases of the woman getting pregnant multiple times and leaving the men holding the baba’s while they go on with their lives footloose and fancy free so I automatically said “fathers”. But either way people need to be held accountable

this comment is a bit random Gemma children’s allowance is paid to all parents not just single ones

I wasn’t saying they don’t Paul, I’m just making the point that this is another cut to single parents incomes when we’re already so far stretched…nearly every cut has affected us directly, one parent family payment has been reduced twice since recession hit, child benefit has been reduced three times, forth cut imminent, fuel allowance cut, back to school cut, last budget saw the end of us being able to work and sign on…I’d like to point out that I’ve always worked and never claimed any of these, I’ve never needed to but as I stated in a comment above having recently being cut from full time to one day a week I’m wondering why the hell have I being paying taxes all along when I can’t even sign on now that I need to? I’m fully in favour of doing away with child benefit to people whose combined income is ?60,000 and above.

Biggest problem here is that the state is involved in marriage. This creates inequality between married couples and single mothers, which is not only discriminatory — but ridiculously unfair.

Just a thought.

Not just the ministers expenses all TD’s should have their expenses cut / terminated.

Yes the TD’s too,

Will the journal post the poll?

Ah here,leave it out!!!

We can’t cut politicians expenses,what would they live on ??? According to Aine Collins TD “It’s not easy to live on 140k a year.”

Because this country has seen centuries of violence and the Irish person is sick of it.

I for one do not want to be bashing the head in of another Irish person.

I understand where you are coming from but a Civil War which is exactly what you are talking about, isn’t the solution!

@Jim. Ghandi is a perfect example of peaceful protest. We can imitate his methods of non compliance.

From taxes. Exactly. But many of the same people here who are opposed to a CB are also opposed to increased taxation in other areas. The logic of “increase taxes for everyone except us” doesn’t work if everyone says it, but everyone does say it.

What drop in the cost of living Paul?

After being cut from full time to just one day a week recently ?4 would be the difference between me being able to get a bag of coal a week or not, as getting some oil in is totally off the cards now…

Paul the drop you mention is in living standards and not in as you say cost of living.
the middle income families are now included in the “coping class” which i take to mean “existing class” as most if not all luxuries are well and truely gone.
we as a people deserve better than this but what can you expect when we argue amongst ourselfs as to who should be taxed,punished or cut in services more just to satisfy faceless bondholders,bankers, this advisory group that advisory group when the REAL culprits are still walking the streets.
it time to stick together as a people and say enough to this eu lacky gov.
B.T.W did anyone notice that Iceland are getting millions in grant aid from the eu to promote tourism not bad for a country that told the bondholders to get stuffed and guess who most of them bondholders were, G.B and Germany as i said not bad

@Paul, where did you come up with reduced cost living? Gas due to go up again, electric already has, fuel is astronomical, public transport fares increased….

I agree James. I just read a hateful comment above lauding those who work over those who don’t. The unemployed have no choice but to get welfare. But some people have the attitude that they are somehow breaking the law or immoral in some way. Cop on is what I say. Many of us worked for years and paid into the system and are now unemployed so I don’t buy into this we are carrying ye on the dole attitude. You carry nobody but yourself but there is a very sick insidious attitude out there and strangely I have only heard this from people who live in rural Ireland and are well paid public servants, that people not working should be left with nothing. One teacher I worked with actually told me 5 minutes after starting as a new teaching job that people on the dole should get cut off. This is a sick twisted attitude and it smacks of arrogance and selfishness as if they are carrying the unemployed. The unemployed worked too you know and paid into the system. Don’t forget that.

Can I live on what ever planet you’re living on ?

the idea that poor families have to apply for a top up means that the bureaucrats get to offload more work on already overstreched and poor people. This will also mean that quite a few people won’t be doing it. The state needs to do the work here and not offload it.

Children’s allowance is only paid till the child reaches 18
Regardless to if they are still in school or college

I have seen the family card used in other countries, accepted in all supermarkets but not for alcohol and cigarettes.

I would be quiet happy to accept a payment card, vouchers etc payable to ESB, Eircom, Our local fuel merchant, Our local group water scheme, Our local school book/stuff suppliers, Our local shoe shop, Tesco, Dunnes where clothes can also be bought, Our local Topaz for the endless petrol we spend on school runs etc and gladly produce receipts for everything at the end of the month because this is how we spend our money. Neither my husband or I drink or smoke thankfully, out of choice I’ll add but wouldn’t be able to afford it anyhow! I do however know of families who would get as much and in some cases more than we do but their children have nothing to show for it, shameful. Its these kids missing out and someone else STILL somewhere has to provide a second time for them.

the only problem with that is some families use there’s to pay bills and oil.

That’s True Lorna, but all you have to do is prohibit what can’t be purchased i.e. Drink, Ciggarettes, Holidays abroad and new cars. But scrapping it and directing it into education, may have its dis-advantages to some?

The exact same percentage of no voters that do have children

Pardon me, but since when were children free of cost? If you have children you do so in the knowledge that you will have to pay for preschool, school books, uniforms, eventually college, you know from the day of conception that these costs will be coming down the line.
Fine, let the state supplement those who are stretched, IE, those working, but if you are on state benefit, have never paid an ounce of tax in your life, why should I, who has no children, be working to pay tax to keep them and their children to the style they’re accustomed to?
I have no problem with child benefit being paid if you contribute to society – but if you’re a career welfarer – get out. There are hard working people out there paying a lot of tax, and quite frankly, I’d rather see it go towards those actually contributing to my society.

@Michael
While I do agree with you, I think that the children have no choice in the matter. If we could change children allowance so that books, schooling, education etc was paid for and improved vastly, then the money would be going directly to the children and not the parents to spend in any which way. Using the money for improved children’s education would have a benefit for society on a whole.

Absolutely – it should be attached to UB or JB – the longer you are on social welfare, the rate of CA should go down, with the unpaid amount being paid into a fund for the local school to provide books or materials or uniforms – I don’t know, but it should not be given to those who have never worked a day in their lives.

@micheal. Those children you are supporting now will someday support you when you are old in pension payment or illness support.

David, I didn’t say take it from the children – I said take it from the adults. Instead of giving it to parents who have no interest in their child’s welfare, put it into our schools – provide children with books, uniforms, materials, school tours, lunches, whatever.
If you are doing better on social welfare than you are on a full time job, there is something drastically wrong with the system. I’m not saying remove welfare, I’m saying that when you sign on, you should get UB, maybe household support for bills, along with child benefit, but instead of each of those things being a constant no matter how long you remain in receipt of SW, it should be on a reducing scale. Yes the state needs to make it as easy as possible to get jobs, but there are jobs available, and have been the whole way through this crisis. Yes they may not pay the top dollar – they are jobs though. We should not be making it easier to stay at home than to go out and work. All welfare schemes need to be looked at – including the Child Allowance.

@micheal. This is what you said that I was responding to.
Quote “why should I, who has no children, be working to pay tax to keep them and their children to the style they’re accustomed to?”

The Bondholders and Politicians come first and their children, do something about it Keyboard warriors!

they don’t care so we need to protect our selfs against the government at some point

i take it by the thumbs down that you are the ones that will complain and not do anything

Catherine some fair points there, but ranting on here isn’t going to change things. If your that determined to make a change the only way top do it is to interact with the current system i.e get elected to local/national government and make changes that way

@ Leah – I’m not disagreeing, but I’m questioning how this will happen. You say that the people who can afford to pay more tax should. Seems reasonable. But who actually decides who is in a position to pay more. If I told you that I’ve decided you should pay more, I’m quite sure you would disagree, and you would be right to. Who am I top decide that about your situation? But, by extension, if you decide that certain people should pay more, and decided that they can pay more, they have just as much right as you do to say “No”. Move away from the ideals, look at the pragmatics, and what practical way can you see there to be that will enable the state to maintain CB while either lowering the state spending deficit and/or increasing tax revenue that is possible to implement and that people will abide by? The “someone else has gotta pay” argument is getting this country nowhere, because there is no”someone else”, there’s only us. And forcing extra charges onto the public hasn’t gone down well at all so far, just look at the Houseshold Charge ( fixed ) and the proposed Property Tax ( variable ) . So why would a charge to maintain CB be taken in any more of a positive way than these????

There’s a slight problem re oil & gas………….it’s under the sea.

you can claim tax back, it should be means tested so only those that need it get it

If its only going to save 200 million why not keep this 1 billion of many billions that have been given to un secured bankers that are lending it back to us with interest even though we have no obligation to give them any money. That will help stop the worst off in society from getting worse off while the bankers take their share of pain

@ Martin Gregory,

1) 1Billion Payback to bondholders although not right is unrelated to excesses in current expenditure
2) Child benefit is paid to everyone regardless of financial status. There are other mechanisms to protect the most vulnerable

@ Johnthebaptist. so you agree with paying the wealthy a welfare payment.? Insane.

If the government own the banks does that not mean that it is the government that are paying the bankers ?! That in sense makes it expenditure ?! Thats 17 billion so far this year & another 18 billion being paid back next year….

Yes if you want kids you have for them I have a nice jeep I have to pay for it

Christopher Gardiner, I agree with you on that BUT the fact is alot of wealthy to middle class people are watching the number of children they can have and afford whereas working-class areas keep having so many regardless of thinking how many they can afford and expect the state to pay for them. The truth is they need to limit the number of children’s benefits to 2 children, no more. After that, if people want more, pay for it yourself and stop expecting the tax payers to raise your children. I see tons of middle class people who don’t have the money to have more and they stop.

So we are going to save 200 million , big deal . That’s not even a quarter of the money they will be paying as part of the Spanish bail out. The Irish government will possibly be paying 852 million as their share for the bailout for the Spanish banks as agreed in the treaty.

The only people that will suffer are the children at the end of the day and the people who are lower class or middle class are using the money as part of their monthly budget. In some cases its going to the mortgage, esb bill , heating or clothes and food and any cut will put more pressure on the people.

The Irish Government have lost touch with reality and are looking at Ireland as a country and not mass of people who are suffering. The likes of Enda Kenny, Eamon Gilmore, Michael Noonan and every other Muppet in that building are disconnected from reality and society . They have no understanding of what its like to rummage through their wallet looking for 10 euro for petrol for the car. No ideal what its like to hold off getting the food for a few days because they are waiting to get paid . They have no financial worries so they have no understanding how the people actually feel in this kip of a country.

With this lack of understanding comes the inability to perform the primary task and that is to protect the citizens of the country. The are busy protecting the country as a whole at all costs and its standing withing the failed Eurozone and forgetting about the people as a whole.

People need to realise when they are giving out about theses fools that its human nature and they are in for their own futures , pensions and financial gain.

Whatever you may argue about adults’ life choices reflecting on their income, children have no control over what families (or ‘class’, to translate into the language used here) they are born into.

Children have rights. The state has an obligation to ensure these rights are upheld. (And incidentally, society at large has a ‘moral’ obligation to ensure same). Part of this is to ensure that every child has access to the means required to fulfill the rights, and part of that is the financial means, whether it is sourced from their parents, the state, or some other party.

The current government has already seen the error it made in imposing a ‘flat-rate’ tax in the form of the household charge, and deciding on a flat-rate for child benefit is basically making the same mistake again.

It is clear that Ireland’s books need to be balanced, so our current welfare payments do need to be looked at in general. And while it may prove an expensive in the short term, means testing will provide a way to ween the nation off an unsustainable welfare structure, without impacting on those who actually require the assistance.

@christopher Gardiner
No never said that but what I am saying is that the incorrect repayment of bondholders should not be used as an excuse not to reduce our current spending defecit of 12 Billion a year. Child benefit is paid to every one in the state that has eligible children not matter where in the EU the children reside and regardless of the household income. Does’nt make a lot of sense to maintain it just because we paid bondholders

lets start with get rid of Senate. cut the number of Co Councils . cut the number of T.Ds. THERE EXPENSES

If you’re paying 1,200 on Creche fees you most certainly do depend on it.

Since cost of living in this country is so high, €50,000 is not that big a wage for a family with children. That may sound crazy, but factor in childcare, mortgage/rent, car(s) and bills and you wont be living too lavishly on a €50K family income. To decide on a cut off point you would need to factor in family size, location etc.

“Get the government to use its clout to make a deal with producers of books, clothes, certain foods etc for a good deal for parents.”

You actually think this is possible. Do you no think these educational companies aren’t just going to lobby the minister for education to have their produce selected?

some people having children wasn’t a choice!

So children should only be for the unemployed or for the rich?

Why should child-free people subsidise those with children? Because children aren’t pet dogs. They are citizens. Next time you see a time, remind yourself that that baby is exactly as much a citizen as you are.

This country does not exist for your benefit.

Sorry, that came out wrong. I should have written:
“So children should only be for the rich?

@Caroline. Yes. Rape is dreadful. I agree.

@Ruth. Explain more. Can’t follow your comment, sorry.

Smiley, who’s going to pay for your old age? Your pension wouldn’t be enough. So it will be someone else’s kids that they paid for.

@William. I pay for my old age. I saved.

This government will hit anyone. Don’t say you chose not to have children. There are disabled people out there who didn’t ask to be disabled but they are being hit as much as the next person. I can understand people saying having children is a money making racket. Well, I don’t think so but when I see a 22 or 23 year old single girl with 3 or 4 children then questions have to be asked. Where are the dads ? Go after them for the money.

I presume you were at the March for Choice at the weekend then?

I still feel the issue is more to do that it’s financially hard to stay in business these days, upward only rent and high rates and insurance, I’ve lost track of the numbers of businesses closing every day adding to the unemployment line, it was always my understanding that it’s more important to have people working and keeping the flow of money in circulation, people living without state aid unless still in need of it while also contributing with tax.

I hear every day “the sorry fact is we are spending more than we take in and need to cut benefits” This won’t change when people are still depending on it due to unemployment and this current shower of plebs only continue to cut at it bit by bit making it harder for folk to get up from and find jobs which they would be better off taking than remain on welfare.
It just doesn’t make sense. They are focusing on taking more from us instead of putting more in. Incentives for jobs, upward only rent abolished and work with a few contract lawyers in breaking current long term rental agreements to stop it, cut rates and councils budgetary calculation system so shops/business can remain open and employing.
This form of austerity only works in certain situations, and ours isn’t one of them. The interest debt we are creating is madness and seriously poisoning this country’s future.

oh just stop the racist rants please