I’ve no idea why they’re being so backward on this issue! It would do so much to tackle issues of gender based disparity.

A friend of mine told me in Austria the maternity/parental leave is shared between both parents. They can either take it in turns, at the same time or just one of them have it. The length of time you get depends on the choice you go with.

I know Deirdre, it’s bananas. I wholeheartedly agree that babies are too small to be without a parent for that time when they are tiny, but a lot of women are the primary breadwinners these days. There is no reason a father would not be able to look after his own baby if it suits the family for some of the time. Men are surely in favour of this also, as they are crying out for more rights and access to their families.

It is exchequer neutral, and has no downside that I can see. Hope Mary Mitchell O’Connor reads this suggestion and makes it happen. It would give us the option to have that equal footing if we wanted it.

And what was the outcome of the resulting court case?

This is a must see!

This is interesting indeed

I would agree with his conclusion

No.

Maybe in the ICA headquarters :)

It affects men in different professions… for example in nursing. I know of one man who experienced discrimination as a nurse. Unfortunately this had to do with more patients, male and female, asking for a female nurse and this had a knock on affect when it came to deployment. It made him feel undervalued.

A total of 46 prisoners (including one woman, Annie Walsh) were executed within the walls of the Mountjoy prison, prior to the abolition of capital punishment.

Look they discriminate men up there! ( 45 to 1 ).

In the roles of Primary school teachers, HSE workers, Social workers… YES men are discriminated against… but the main role where men are discriminated against is within the family and around your children…. Get separated or divorced or be a dad and not married, and you will see REAL GENDER discrimination at work… one that many many women fight to keep in place

What you are saying more or less sums up the video John posted above: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwogDPh

You’re right. If men were also able to take time off to care for their children if they wanted, this would do a lot to even the scales I believe.

I see the same thing happen to me. My Area manager is a woman and has worked with us for about a year, i have noticed that alot of the females have moved up quite fast, i dont begrudge them but its obvious that the Area manager has a chip on her shoulder with us men.

You are right I’d say Mark, it has certainly affected my pay.

“There’s no reason why they couldn’t reverse those roles of course.”

There is one very big reason we can’t reverse those roles…. maternity policy. Maternity benefit can only be transferred to the partner if the woman dies.

“the then understandable desire of women to prioritise rearing kids over working the kind of unsocial overtime necessary for promotion”

Children have TWO parents. Why is only womens’ desire to prioritise childrearing mentioned? Surely both parents have an equal desire to prioritise rearing their children.

“Dad concentrated on career , often working long hours, Mum works the minimum hours”……. IN PAID EMPLOYMENT (you omitted to add)

Parents ( of either gender) who are looking after their children at home are working long hours too. Just because this is not paid,visible, taxable income not not mean it isn’t difficult work and that it isn’t important and worthwhile.

What about the pay gap for women who have no children?

I suspect Mark Downes that we agree on many points but I can’t let that pass.

@ P Wurple I wasn’t aware of that maternity benefit issue before, but you’re right – it should be changed. However, the child-rearing years I’m talking about go on for more than a decade after maternity benefit ceases to be an issue. The theory is that these years do just as much damage to a woman’s earning potential, possibly more than the maternity leave. If she’s being compared to a similarly qualified man who has had the advantage of having been able to put a lot more time into the company over 10 years than she has, it follows that she probably won’t be judged to be as strong a candidate when it comes to promotion, hence the pay difference.

@ Joan – I did say there’s no reason parents can’t (and often do) reverse these roles. When I mention women prioritising children over career, I do so because that’s what the majority choose to do. I’m not making any judgment on whether they should have to do that.

As for the hours worked at home by stay-at-home parents, I think you’re straying from the point. The discussion is about discrimination at work. It has nothing to do with stay-at-home parenting except to the extent to which it affects the long-term earning potential of women who either give up work (yes I know, child rearing is also work) or who choose to work only the minimum 8 hours or even part-time in order to give more time to their kids. Again, yes I know that men can just as easily assume this role, they just typically don’t.

You raise one interesting question though: whether women who have no children experience pay discrimination. Are there any studies on that? It does suggest that if it were true, women would find it easier to get those jobs in the first place. As a previous poster pointed out and it makes perfect sense, market forces would make women more attractive candidates than equally qualified men if they really were paid less. But is it the case that they find it easier to get jobs than men?

Joan… you want to see gender discrimination at work… just go visit the family courts… Where 0.30% of the time fathers get custody of their kids

Also Joan…. where are all the women fighting for equality to be binmen, sewage workers, grave diggers, its not equality that these “Feminazis” want, its superiority that they want….. Women’s rights have improved greatly over the past few decades, now enough until the areas of inequality towards men are addressed

Brian… you have good points to make. Gender discrimination in courts is a serious issue. It really needs to be addressed.

You undermine your arguments by attacking women who seek an end to gender discrimination. It happens on both sides.

Deirdre I don’t see him attacking women who want to end discrimination, I see him attacking people who want to perpetuate it

Maybe he can be more clear on who these ‘Feminazis’ who want to be superior to men are then. Or why there has been enough of improvements in the area of women’s rights.

I do have an answer! But it presumes to know Brian’s mind, so I’ll leave it to him……..

Brian Keelty

I do not deny that in the case of family law, men are discriminated against, and this is an issue on which I would very much welcome reform of the law .

It is REAL GENDER discrimination as you say.

However , I feel that gender discrimination in the office ( the topic for discussion in the title ) is also REAL GENDER discrimination.

You mention the role of primary school teachers. I would disagree that men are discriminated against here. There is a real shortage of men entering into teaching at primary level, and many schools have no male teachers as a result. However, the number of males who become Principals is high.

And I do not consider myself a victim.

If you feel males are discriminated in certain areas , and I feel women are discriminated in other areas, surely it is better to both work towards equality in all areas.

Mark Downes

As say I suspect we are in agreement but I object to the phrase ” Dad works LONG hours , Mum works MINIMUM hours”. BOTH parents are working towards the care of the family but as the, and work in childcare is often not recognised as it is not paid work.

There is a reason why those roles are so often defined by gender. It is because that is the way it has always been, and “Mum” will be paid less than Dad, so financially it is better if Dad works. Also Dad can’t take paternity leave. If BOTH parents were paid equally, and BOTH parents had access to parental leave, then we could all make choices on the basis of equality.

Anyway, This debate has depressed me enormously. Not spoken as a victim, but as a mother, worker( inside and outside the home) and human.

@ Dierdre…. where would one start……… Cathrine McGuinness, Who in the lrc report on family law, had 8 current or ex members of women’s aid, making recommendations on what is best for fathers in family courts…….Susan Denham ( who recently upheld a law stating that only under age boys can be prosecuted for under age sex…. Not a poor little innocent girl)……. The board of the Dublin Rape crisis centre, whose stance is rape only happens to women…… All women who support the stance the DOMESTIC VIOLENCE only happens to women….. To the women who feel justified in gender quotas in the dail, but refuse to the the gender imbalance within education, HSE, Social workers………………. And most of all to the spineless toad that is Niall Crowley, a man so bereft of balls, that he stated ” There is no discrimination or inequality towards men, only towards women, and that the perceived inequalities towards men will only be resolved when all inequalities against women are resolved”…. The man obviously never set foot in the Family courts……. What i fight for is real EQUALITY for all, Men, Women, Children, Straight or Gay, black, white, yellow. The questions that must be asked are ……… Who gains from a gender war? Who gains from division in society? The same answers always come back…. Solicitors and politicians

Joan – “You mention the role of primary school teachers. I would disagree that men are discriminated against here. There is a real shortage of men entering into teaching at primary level, and many schools have no male teachers as a result. However, the number of males who become Principals is high.”

The number of women entering politics is low, but the proportion that become ministers is high. So are women not being discriminated against in politics? Or is it time for gender quotas in schools?

(as an aside, I’d suspect the performance of those male principals is better than that of Hanafin, Harney etc)

Brian, I think we can both agree that men are also affected by gender discrimination… But generalised accusations about women wanting to be superior to men and terms like ‘Feminazi’ aren’t helpful unless you provide a context. Much of what you say above hadn’t been mentioned before.

Do you think enough has been done in the area of rights for women?

Btw, It is some kind of bullying as well. During one of the trainings at work (agile software development), in order to explain teamwork we were flipping 1-cent coins on the table gouped by 2 teams. One team had more women and they won. I know, or I have such a dillision that women are better in doing such a things ( which require a lot of diligence and concentration – like knitting for example ) and I joked “They won, because they have more women”. After that another woman from our team asked me to be careful with such comments!

Whatever they think – I found it offensive : I understand it as an offense called “affirmative action”.

Why would they?

If anything, I think most women put up with more discrimination than they let on.

I would like to see the journal publish an article on why more and more men choose not to marry irish women or indeed european women.
I am one of many who would rather be single than being married to an irish girl.
5 years ago I married an asian lady and the relationship is so utterly different.
I never looked back.
What Sean Davids said has a close connection to my reservation of marrying a native girl.

To be fair, I did hear from one woman who was appointed as a manager in one of the biggest grocery chains and later, after she became pregnant, she was indirectly and very politely forced out of this position (like she was asked to move heavy stuff around). I think they see men as better workers because they cannot get pregnant and take maternity leave.

Didn’t “see” it David, or just didn’t recognise it as it didn’t affect you

actually Joan i am not an ignorant person and accept things may happen to others that i might not have experienced. the reason my answer was i don’t know is because in all the companies i have worked, no female counterpart has felt this an issue with regards to promotions, wages and benefits. I have never spoken to a female colleague who felt objectified as this was a taboo in companies i have worked. In all roles i have been in when it came to promotions women were taken more seriously, and the reasons were simply because they were better for the job, not because they were women or any other reason. My answer was i don’t know because i think its possible that i worked for a small few companies where this was not an issue. Therefore, in my experience this was not an issue and in the grand scheme of things, i don’t know as i have not witnessed, nor have any of my female colleagues in those companies. I have a lot of female friends, and male, and this has never been an issue for them. Yes they have had issues with work, but they were never gender related.

David, I did not say you were an ignorant person.

Just because you have not seen it, or females of your acquaintance have not discussed it with you does not mean discrimination does not occur.

” in some areas men get treated better than women, in others women better than men”

The areas where men are treated better than women are in employment and earnings. Men will have a far greater influence as a result, when it comes to decision making and policy making.

An example would be the IT sector. Probably 2 in 10 are women or could be as low as 1 in 10.

Another example would be cleaners where its probably 1 in 10 are men. Out of IT and Cleaners jobs, which do you think is the higher salary? Statistics can be manipulated to anyone’s benefit.

@Red Dave

2. in 10 are women?

Do you know why that is?
It’s because out of 10 people who studied IT 2 of them were women.
Simple as that.

Red Dave
I have no idea what point you are making

Nice Victim role that you’re playing there Joan

Hmmmm I’m inclined to agree, but giving people the option wouldn’t do any harm.

Which gender do you think does more of the household shopping? Off the top of your head.

Interesting statistics (80% of all consumer spending, really?). Where are they from?

Lies, damned lies and statistic
( and no evidence of where your statistics came from)

This is the second time in a matter of hours that Mary Mitchell O’Connor has had the chance to voice her opinion.
Strange or what?
It appears that for every 1 hour of media attention that women get, men only get 5 minutes.
You just have to look at the massive funding that womens organisations are granted in Ireland every year in comparison to the funding that mens organisations get.
Don’t talk to me about discrimination.

“It appears that for every 1 hour of media attention that women get, men only get 5 minutes.” – are you joking? It really seems like it. Because what you’re saying is so blatantly untrue it’s laughable. I want you to sit down and watch the news and see how much time male politicians are on screen vs female politicians. Time it with a stopwatch. Do it for a few days. Then come back with actual facts rather than bizarre MRA rhetoric.

What if boss is a woman?

I think the concept of the boss being a woman might be a step to far for one of Aarum’s evolution

too far ! oops

Aarum that happens whether boss is male or female. It’s best to play along

I agree if the boss is a woman it can work both ways, but these polls are saying that most managers are male, I was just stating the obvious, lots of women use their gender to get ahead in the work place by flirting which is also wrong, I definately think equal pay & equal positions to all, so long those promoted or in reciept of perks deserve it

What do you want, a medal? I am a man and I have the exact same role in my household, suck it up!

This is the best one I’ve heard yet. Women want equality in the work place (or a sex war as you call it) because we’re petty?

Everything that women have achieved, we have because our forebears nagged, whined, moaned, chained themselves to the houses of parliament, burned their bras and made themsleves an unbearable nuisance to men in general. Petty as it may seem to you, I’ve a lot to be grateful to them for.

You’re right, men don’t want a sex war. Then again they never had to do the awful stuff above to have what they have.

Men have had their own problems down the years, which never get mentioned. The societal expectations of the past(?) cut both ways.

This article is about the top 5 regrets of the dying, as recorded by a palliative care nurse. Look at number 2, and note the words ‘every’ and ‘all’

2. wish I hadn’t worked so hard.

“This came from every male patient that I nursed. They missed their children's youth and their partners companionship. Women also spoke of this regret, but as most were from an older generation, many of the female patients had not been breadwinners. All of the men I nursed deeply regretted spending so much of their lives on the treadmill of a work existence.”

http://www.northernadvocate.co.nz/news/top-five-regrets-of-the/1263127/

The idea that men regret not having spent more time with their children isn’t a new one. The social mores of the past (and still today) confined a lot of people to exisitences that they may not have been cut out for. Many women suffered severe psychological problems (or hysteria caused by their uterus…. ) because of the barriers that society erected around them. Men suffered in isolation in different ways – isolation from their families because they were the bread winner and the mother, the homemaker.

My point above is that the change that came about in the way that society views the genders didn’t come easy… and was always, then, today and without doubt in the future, be percieved as an irritation to those that just don’t get it. Those that aren’t affected by it.

People like me have a lot to thank the people who put themselves out there and were as irritating and ‘petty’ as possible for… and consequently men who feel they can now be at home more.

Gender discrimination hasn’t gone away, for either sex, which is why it will continue to be an irritation.

No you said that men “never had to do the awful stuff above to have what they have.” What men “have”, apparently, is a lifetime of regret caused by a level of work unknown to most women.

“The awful stuff above” that I mention is this -

“nagged, whined, moaned, chained themselves to the houses of parliament, burned their bras and made themsleves an unbearable nuisance to men in general.”

As far as I know, men didn’t do this to achieve for themselves the things that women did in the last 100 or so years. Yes, there were men fighting on behalf of women, but men didn’t need to do these things because the reasons for them was the likes of votes, right to work, hold property etc. I’m not sure where you’re unclear on this.

We’re emerging from a patriarchal society, where for the most part, it was privilaged men making the rules. The societal norms imposed on both genders affected both in negative ways.

Men like Wat Tyler and John Lilbourne suffered for EVERYONE’S rights. What they suffered goes beyong the awfulness of burning your own underwear. Most of the people reading this will by of Irish Catholic descent, do you really think their great grandfather’s were treated with equality? Did an Irish man have a better life than a rich English woman? Does a Ugandan man today have a better life than an Irish woman? What you call ‘patriarchy’ was much more complex

The point Im making is that if life is so sweet for men, then they wouldn’t all (and I stress ‘all’) have had the same regret. The overriding male ‘privilege’ seems to be the right (expectation, more often) that you will work every hour possible until you die

Chuck… accepting that women had to fight for a lot of what we have doesn’t mean that I don’t accept that other people didn’t fight for lots of things at different times in history. I’m not sure where you’re getting that notion. I think you do know what I’m trying to say though…

Do you really think that in terms of gender equality, which is what we are all talking about here, men had it harder?

You said that women had to do something to gain equal rights that men didn’t have to do. I’m just making the obvious point that men had to do plenty

With regard to who had it harder, I think that’s another gross over-simplification. It depends entirely on time, place and subjective individual desires. 100 years ago, Emmaline Pankhurst couldn’t vote but I could have. However, who would have been expected to face the slaughter at the Somme? Not her.

Personally, I’d have taken the opportunities provided by being male over the protection of being female. But we don’t live in 1912 and what I’m trying to point out is that 1) the notion that the world was run for the benefit of men doesn’t stand up to any scrutiny – they were miserable and no-one ever acknowledges that. 2) modern society allows women to live the life they want, but the traditional expectations on men are largely still in place

People had to do plenty in terms of equal rights across the board. Yes, again, I am in agreement.

Women had to do plenty to gain rights in terms of gender equality. The ‘plenty’ that I refer to is the stuff I mentioned above.. specifically. To gain rights that men took for granted.

A woman may have been privileged but she still didn’t have the rights that her husband or brother had. She may not have had to fight in the Somme, but that was not her choice to begin with.

The notion that the world was run by men isn’t about who was miserable and who wasn’t. Pretty much everyone was depending on where you were in society. One gender didn’t have the monopoly on misery. It’s about who had the power and the influence. Not women.

“modern society allows women to live the life they want, but the traditional expectations on men are largely still in place”

Also, i don’t agree with this. A man may be judged if he chooses to stay at home and be a homemaker but If a woman chooses to leave the house and work, I think she is still judged more harshly than a man. In fact, I don’t think a man is judged at all for that. Maybe not by you or me, but that discrimination is still there.

“She may not have had to fight in the Somme, but that was not her choice to begin with.”

Hundreds of thousands of dead conscripted men also did not have a choice, a practice that continues today.

When you say “who had the power? not women” you imply that men, as a group, did have the power. Men are not a hive-mind. A very small set of people had power and most of them were in fact men. They were also Protestant and caucasian and from a small group of countries and those factors were just as relevant as their gender.

I would point out that there is such thing as soft power. How many black men were lynched on the word of a white woman?

I couldn’t disagree with your second point more. The stigma attached to being a stay-at-home man or house-husband is far greater than being a woman with a career

I’ve never, ever heard anyone, even in jest, say anything against a woman for having a job

Chuck… I’m going to try once again to drag this conversation back on topic. You said it yourself, men had opportunity, something that wasn’t afforded to women in the same way. You can try to veer away from that as much as you like but the fact is that women had to fight for things… because of their sex. Men didn’t. That’s the point I’ve been making all along. I think you do know that, you just don’t like it.

What we have of gender equality came slowly and grudgingly because women, for the most part, fought for it.

You can choose to disagree that there was a patriarchal society before women did these things…. but I think many would disagree with you (although judging from the comments section here, I’m not s sure ;-) ).

My example about women being judged more harshly for leaving the home and her children to pursue a career is just an example of the ways in which women are judged differently to men (Even if you don’t choose to believe that that exists). Women are judged more harshly on how they conduct their sex lives too for example.. something which can impact on young women in a very negative way. And not just by men but in general by the conservative. I don’t actually believe things like this will ever go away. I think it’s human nature. Like the people

“Chuck… I’m going to try once again to drag this conversation back on topic.”

I’ve answered the things you said

“Men didn’t. ”

Men did.

You can choose to disagree that there was a patriarchal society before women did these things…. but I think many would disagree with you (although judging from the comments section here, I’m not s sure ).

I disagree based on evidence, not just because I feel like it. The idea of a patriarchal society that ruled the world for the benefit of men to the detriment of women is a myth – certainly as far as our society goes – that feminists perpetuate to promot their own ends. The societal expectations (and obligations) placed on men made life extremely hard for the overwhelming majority of men. They had far less choice than you make out and in any case; it was a hundred years ago. Why not live in the present? Which leads me on to…..

“My example about women being judged more harshly for leaving the home and her children to pursue a career is just an example of the ways in which women are judged differently to men (Even if you don’t choose to believe that that exists).”

You characterise me as chossing a belief…..again. You also say that what you cite is an ‘example’ even though it is unverifiable. Why can’t I do the same? My ‘belief’ is based on evidence. I don’t know a single woman who has ever had a word breathed against her for having a job. I do know men who have been laughed at for staying at home, and I suspect you do too.

Often, a stay-at-home Dad is emasculated, in particular in the eyes of his wife, as the recent letter to the Independent that got so much press noted. A woman with a job is just normal.

I have a friend that was judged for leaving her kids to pursue a career, and I’ve heard of others.

I myself have never heard anyone say they think less of a man for staying at home with his kids… ever. But guess what? I know it exists.

The idea of a patriarchal society that denied women equal status to men ie the vote, access to a decent education, ownership of property, influence in decision making on a municipal level etc existed. You may not like it, but it did. I don’t know about you but I’d rather a vote than be the excuse for someone to act on a hatred that already existed within them, such as your example of soft power.

Your idea of feminists perpetuating a myth to promote their own ends shows me exactly what kind of person I’m arguing with. I could concede on every point that you make about the hardship that I know men endured but you just can’t seem to acknowledge that women had something stand up against.

yes their not discriminated against enough, LOL

Then my advice for you and your friend is to report the jerk for his actions and may he learn a lesson from it, start with an informal complaint to HR and if it continues, escalate it further. The longer these things go unchecked the harder it becomes to think you can do something about it. Nip it in the bud, while he may not mean it in a derogatory sense it’s insulting and belittling, so it’s important he is made aware of this and his actions have been reported. The best thing is that there is a record of it that’s backdated and it will stand to you if ever you need to do something more serious about it.

Well said Chuck…. Look to tennis for a great example… In the Grand slam finals women get the same money as men for winning but play the best of 3 sets compared to the best of 5 for men…………….

28 thumbs down between us, and not one person willing to contradict what we said!

Morning Chuck

I don’t think fatality rates should have anything to do with equal pay rates.

I agree that women in tennis should pay 5 sets for the same pay rates.

Should that not be “their ” place JW

Other than the obvious grammatical error, your comment was insightful and hilarious

:0(

Their brians?? (note; Their, not there)