And fair play to you then. But there are many v wealthy people whose children’s education should not be subsidised.

@Tigerisinthezoo
Subsidised is wrong in this context when in fact the state subsidises public school children’s fee’s FULLY and only partially for those who attend private schools. All children are to be given equal access to education by the state, families that actually contribute more for their child’s education should not be blackened by your naive comments, the state must provide for all children.

May I just ask, did your father believe he was somehow disadvantaged because he didn’t attend a fee paying school?

They are indeed entitled to free post primary, but they’re opting out of it.

And I think that there are a lot of people who could afford the increase in fees. And the cost of publicly educating those that can’t would probably be negated by the savings made by not subsidising the rest of them.

Well said. I didn’t know the answer here really but i was waiting for all these tax the rich blah blah blah…they can afford it rubbish. Could not see how people could vote on this without better stats on value for money and such if they didn’t know.

So why are a bank executives kids costing me money at all?

Wrong. The state loses a huge amount of tax that is reclaimed on fees.

Where are you getting the idea that parents can claim back tax on school fees? That’s not true. Whatever your opinion on the core issue, suggesting that there is some kind of tax benefit for someone paying fees when it isn’t the case doesn’t clarify the issue any.

I think there is a tax allowance for 3rd level fees – maybe that’s where the confusion lies?

Where did you get the figures from as the are wrong

PriceWaterhouseCoopers were independently commissioned late last year to produce a report on the issue and these were the figures presented.

Brian Ward
You sum it up really well, there’s so many twits out there who automatically think if you go to a private school you have money!!! No amount of fees will get a thick through the leaving cert and into college cos as far as I know there’s no question on your exam paper asking where you went to school, just a number!

Agreed. It is the home environment that is important, the culture of self drive and motivation. Ironically the standard of teachers in private schools can oft be lower.

Well said Maria, you condensed what I felt better than I managed to

And fair play to you but can I be nosey and ask are you claiming back tax on the fees?

Let’s take a quick look at some of the economics of this. As I said in a previous post, if this was withdrawn, I’d have to move my child to the public system, cos we could not afford the fees anymore. This would be the case for many, many parents, who would move their children to the public system. What happens then?

A number of teachers, currently paid for from fees, would lose their jobs. While the public system would probably have to employ additional teachers this is pretty much certainly not going to be on a like for like basis. One effect of this is that the public system schools who take up the slack end up with higher numbers of pupils per class. Another is that it costs the taxpayer extra money in salaries, and of course we also lose tax from, and have to pay unemployment benefit to, the newly out of work teachers.

There is an upside for me – I save a lot of money, my kid still gets a decent education, so I’m not really at any loss at all. The taxpayer just now has to spend more money on my child’s education – almost double the amount for every child removed from a private school. A direct subsidy you might say to the ‘rich’ (or the not quite so rich), who can plonk the money they save into a holiday fund and go spend it in Spain. More money lost to the exchequer.

I don’t see how people fail to see this logic, to cut a few million from the private schools will in turn cost many more million that they had planned to save so in fact all those in favor are actually in favor of costing the state more money and actually help the “rich” keep their money….. ha brilliant, no wonder the country is messed up with such strange thinking

They won’t, because Killian & Lorcan would catch ringworm from the riff raff in the state schools !

Yeah no mention here of the fact that should the government pull its funding (which I believe is less per student than it is for non-fee-paying schools), most parents would no longer be able to pay the fees. Their kids have to go to school somewhere and that’d be in non fee-paying schools. That would ultimately cost the government more.

The argument in this article is basically “kids whose parents pay upwards of €4000 per annum for their education (indeed a lot more when you factor in the cost of schoolbooks, uniforms and other costs) have better literacy skills than others! Let’s take away their money and drag them down to a lower level! That’ll make this country better!!”

Maybe means test it. It’s like the children’s allowance thing. If you’re lucky enough to be wealthy and don’t need financial assistance then it shouldn’t be offered to you.

I said this to you Megan the last day. All the parents paying fees are claiming the same fees back in tax. How much net are they paying in fees?
Some of these schools are catering for the wealthiest people in the country. They can well afford to pay more.
Yes the state would have to take in some students but subsidies should gradually be reduced.

Of course it should be pulled. It is another subvention to people at the top. All political acts in Ireland seem to be motivated about how the golden circle can be protected at the cost of everyone else. It’s kept this country down in the dumps long enough.

I

I take issue with ur statement that kids that go to fee paying schools have better literacy skills….where did you get that from? Did you make that up? Or is that fee paying schools propaganda to reel parents in? I didn’t go to a fee paying school and all boasting aside I got an A in my lc. I also managed to scrape through to post grad level all on my meagre literacy skills, as did all of my friends….and the only one who failed college went to private school. Literacy skills are not a reflection of a private education. They are an ability to apply, a reflection of hard work, love of reading, good teachers and parental influence.

Sorry I know for a fact that a lot of parents really couldn’t pay much more than they are. There seems to be a disparity between people’s perception of those in fee paying schools vs the reality. Yes, there are some people with money coming out of their ears, but a lot of us live a lot more modestly than you seem to assume. We’re not all characters in a Ross O’Carroll Kelly novel.

Also could you explain exactly how one could “claim in back” in tax? All I know is my parents are paying more than €10000 a year in school fees alone, as well as a lot of income tax. I don’t think they’re getting much if any of that back?

Megan
The word is Yes not yeah ….so much for your parents 10,000 euros .

Tell ur parents to spend their money on a holiday, there are excellent state schools out there.

If they are private then they should run like any other private organisation and be self funding.

Niamh
I totally agree with you .
I never went to college , I did my LC back in the day and then got a job ! But maybe it is not too late :) Anyway I have children who went to ordinary salt of the earth public / non fee paying school. And they are doing brilliantly.College degrees and working here,. If some one can pay thousands of Euros plus reclaim on tax, for school then pull the plug on the gov hand outs and be done with it. Literacy skills are proven by this comment-
”They are an ability to apply, a reflection of hard work, love of reading, good teachers and parental influence” A beautiful sentence.

Sorry that my parents prioritise my education and that of my siblings over lavish holidays :)

If you opt out, you opt out. The only peoe who think the state should fund private schools are people attending or sending their children to private schools. If you want to pay for your child to have a swimming pool and fencing and state of the art science labs (don’t all wish we could do that!) and you van afford it, bully for you. Just don’t ask me to pay to have that pool cleaned when my local national school can’t afford toilet paper.

Sorry lots of typos in my post. I am blaming the iPhone, not the public education system. This time.

Megan, AFAIK the school sets itself up as a charitable organisation http://www.revenue.ie/en/business/authorised-charities.html You then pay your fee’s as a “donation” and as a result you can claim back but I’m not sure how much. It’s totally legal.

Susan who’s fault is it if the school runs out of toilet paper? The school board, the Dept of Education or the parents up the road paying a couple of thousand extra for their children. I suppose if your car broke down you would blame your neighbour up the road because they have a brand new BMW because you have to blame someone. A school board runs the school and if they are not competent enough to run it then I suggest that they are replaced.

Megan with all due respect you have missed the point. There are plenty of excellent state schools out there. TBH there will always be a requirement for private ed in this country, it is unavoidable but let the schools be self funding. The state needs to wean private schools off funding. In the uk the schools are set up as charities and the funds pay for the teachers. Here the funds go fully to the school and the state pays the teachers.

Megan, your parents send you to private school as a social status symbol and not to better your education, if they really cared for your education they would home school you, as home schooled children constantly outperform private and state schools in the LC.

@Susan, You seem to have a complete misconception of fee paying schools. Many fee paying schools are Church of Ireland or other ‘minority’ religions in this country. As over ninety percent of primary and secondary schools are Roman Catholic (I know this is slowly changing) the government is obliged to provide a broader range of options for citizens, this is why many fee paying schools exist. I also do understand that there are fee paying schools for the wealthy and privileged and i don’t agree with the state “funding their swimming pool”. While state schools are still denominational/ Roman Catholic there must be alternatives provided for the rest of the population. I am repeatedly baffled by the lack of knowledge and misconceptions people have about something so obvious yet unheard of.

Caroline, you will find me and Lorcan were vaccinated against ringworm, our parents were obviously aware of the dangers of the school system…

“Lorcan & I”
tut tut Killian, waste of money sending you to private school

I’m inclined to agree with Niamh, when I was at a state school only the rich divs, couldn’t get the points for a state university went to study things like law, medicine and media studies at private colleges, same is true for the Factnas and Sneachtas, going to these private schools I imagine, why they’re so good at rugby – thicker skulls – just hand them a ball and shout RUN FACTNA RUN and they charge like rhinos. Many of them ended up working in banking, probably the real reason the country is screwed.

Gay Pea Mc M
Ha ha . You you are dead right , they never learnt the ability to mix with others ….Except there own !
The thick skulls about sums it up . The Fachtnas and the Sneachtas running like Rhinos ploughing into all of us like skittles and feck the consequences , because we are nobodies and they are the ELITE ! Well ,Aren’t they in for a fine surprise . We have found our legs and our voices . They better start looking down on what they are trodding on, before we find our teeth.

@tigerisinthezoo can you tell me how I claim tax back on fees paid?

In fairness to Megan she was putting up a good defense until the 10k fees and I nearly choked, but I guess there are schools that charge more. It’d the idea of class segregation which reinforces (two way) class prejudice. A kid from an affluent neighborhood and working class estate can grow in Dublin and go through their formative years without ever meeting one another, having no concept of how the other lives and I personally think that’s a pretty sad state of affairs and don’t think it makes for a very healthy society. I remember hearing an interview with Nessa Childers the MEP and daughter of the late President describe how her father insisted she attended a state school even though they were quite posh, for the very reason she got to hang out with kids from diverse backgrounds. That really impressed me, showed the guy was a man of principle and not some kind of champagne socialist. That and the fact he stood up to Haughty at a time when others in FF wouldn’t have dared.

*I’ll clarify – I’m not the only child in my house attending a fee-paying school, and those fees aren’t split evenly – my brother’s school is more expensive than mine. I don’t know of many fee-paying schools around here that charge 10,000 per student :)

Megan that’s probably because they’re subsidised, but St Columba’s would be at least 10k, I’d say. I take you’re point though, if the subsidy is removed it won’t effect the very rich, fees will increase and they can pay, whereas those on modest middle incomes, who might be putting every last cent into paying school fees would not be able to shoulder a hike in fees right now. I can see why this is important to you though, so good for you for standing up for yourself.

I still stand behind public education though, look at Finland, one of the best education systems in the world and totally public, right up to university, students even get maintenance grants to attend university, so doesn’t matter how well off your family are everyone gets the same opportunity to go to a good school and attend college to study whatever they’re good at.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2011/05/02/the-finland-phenomenon-inside-the-worlds-most-surprising-school-system/

Thats typical Irish thinking though, we’re like crabs in a bucket lol.

So to summarise your argument, people who make the choice to send their children outside of the regular system, whether they sacrifice to do it or are multi-millionaires, should be subsidised by ordinary workers who are struggling ? I think many people supporting the current fee paying structure, know its an unethical system in the 1st place

No, you clearly didn’t read my comment.
I basically said what difference is there between them other than the fact they actually pay thousands a year already to send their children to school, where “ordinary” as you put it family’s pay nothing!

Did you not read the article and see it costs the state around €8k per child a year. With private schools the state already saves by not paying the full €8k where the parents must make up the difference of thousands!!! You now want them to pay all the cost of their child’s education while you pay nothing?? Is that your argument here? What about equality?
These family’s whether scraping to save the yearly admission or are mega rich contribute just as much as you do if not more so your view that these people are some how are SUBSIDISED by poor ordinary you is horribly misguided and insulting.
It’s their choice to pay to educate their child as the same choice is yours or theirs not to, and the term SUBSIDING in this context is inaccurate. If they chose to educate their children in public schools then you may think ordinary people are subsidising them since they can afford to pay more but I never even suggested that or even thought as such as being able to pay or not should not dictate whether the state should provide education equally to all children.

I also didn’t mention ethics as I see this issue as having nothing to do with them but this govt.s use of populist ideas at saving money to stir up the social divide people feel. Look at how much is spent on public schools each year and see how you feel then when you see the utter waste in resources that have continued for decades.

If they want to save money while improving the quality of education then it’s not throwing more money at it but by removing the dead useless comfy teachers who are a burden to the state and pupils education as nothing is ever done to remove them and bring in younger better educated teachers, a better work/study ethos and more focus given to the children, those that wish to actually learn are given this opportunity in all schools.
It’s just more obvious in public schools due to community or social surroundings where doing less is considered cool and the likes, poorer attendance and less dicipline where the kids would prefer to be under a bridge with their friends rather than learning english and maths. Also for years renting port a-cabins at enormous rates instead of building permanent rooms that would be the cost of only a few years renting but nothing was done so renting has gone on for decades wasting millions that could have been used to improve needed services. The list go’s on there.

You want your kids in a private school then you foot the bill….. In full. If you can’t afford it, tough. Put you energy into helping to improve the new school you’ll send your kids to instead.

I couldn’t agree more, cutting or reducing funds to a private school could lead to an increase in much needed funding towards public schools which will obviously increase standards in public schools.

Well said David. It is the morality and ethics more than the savings and costings. Either the state decides to treat all equally or it continues on path of aiding a select few and we keep the culture that has led us to so much repeated economic failure.

you hit the nail on the head david , the issue is about equality. everybody should have the same standard of education , and society will be better for it.

The point is equality of access.
Only better off people can afford to have their kids in private education. I don’t see why the state should subsidise the obvious advantage the richer kids gain.

They are opting out of it.

How would you feel if the govt was subsidising the best health insurance available, but only those who could afford it in the first place got the subsidy. All the while regular working and lower middle class went without decent healthcare cover?

How are they opting out of anything? If parents of private school kids were “opting out” then I’d assume they could opt out of paying the chunk of their tax that goes to the Department on Education too?

The government is simply contributing to teaching costs and perhaps building problems that help provide Irish schoolchildren with a better education. The healthcare analogy is not really correct, but even then people with private healthcare still pay tax (perhaps more than many!) and of course the government should consider their needs too. Likewise, the parents of these children pay tax and are entitled to get some value for their tax just like anybody else.

BTW I was educated in a public school and am glad I was, but I still think cuts to private schools would not make sense and seem to be more socially driven than logically motivated…. Just my tuppence worth!

Societies should look after those at the bottom, and give them the best chance.

There will undoubtedly be cuts in the future, I know what type of schools should have funding cut first.

42.2 of the Constitution says: “The State shall provide for free primary education and shall endeavour to supplement and give reasonable aid to private and corporate educational initiative, and, when the public good requires it, provide other educational facilities or institutions with due regard, however, for the rights of parents, especially in the matter of religious and moral formation.”

This is a constitution that was inarguably written with social justice in mind and even it recognised that the State has an interest in providing towards the education of ALL Irish children. That includes children of wealthy people ;)

That said, of course those grants should see cuts in line with every other segments of education. Getting rig of them would be wrong though.

@mark – they are opting out by the very fact that they do not use the standard education stream as provided through the tax system. If people can afford to send their kids to a higher end school then great, but why should other kids go without proper facilities to subsidise that?

By the same token, I would highly doubt that those raising the 5k a year are doing do so by eating beans 365. Which is what a great number of other tax payers would have to do in order to have another 5 grand after bills etc have been paid. It needs to be phased out. It breeds inequality.

So, people work hard, earn some money and pay their tax. When that’s done, their duty to the state and the law is taken care of and whatever money remains is theirs. For some people the amount will all be needed to cover essentials, others will have some amount, be it small or large, which they can choose to spend in anyway they wish.

Is the problem for you specifically that some people arrange their lives so that their money is spent on education? Would it be OK with you if they spent it instead on flash cars or fancy holidays? Or what? What would be OK with you for them to spend it on?

Or do you just believe that nobody, anywhere, should ever have any choices about how to spend their own money?

Another one of the bourgeois peddling propaganda, to secure an elite education system for themselves.

Is that a crime, to be comfortable??? Probably spend that on two foreign family holidays, which we decided to spend on education. There’s an awful lot of begrudgers on this thread today.

That chip you carry must really wear you down.

It’s now begrudgery to want people who are financially comfortable to pay for their child’s private education themselves as opposed to having it subsidised by the taxpayer? get real.

@damhsa. – if you send your kids to private school my taxes must really help matters. If you think that’s having a chip you’ve got your priorities all wrong

@Scar. Well when I have children old enough to attend school i’ll send them to public school so I’m assured your helping to the fullest to educate my little dears, I wont have to alleviate the state at all in educating my kids, I wont need to as you will be, so….thanks.

unfortunately, it’s not as simple as this.

It’s hardly the fault of fee paying schools if the Dept can’t manage their funds properly. The reason that state run schools don’t have the funds to match fee paying schools is because they are FEE PAYING. Parents are paying extra out of their own pockets to provide a better education for their children. That means sacrificing other things to give their children a better chance in life. You seem to want to punish these parents for trying to do their best for their children by taking away state funding and giving it to non fee paying schools.

In other words you want to discriminate against one child for another just because their parents want the best for them.

Danny D,
Tigerinthezoo puts it much better than I can in a reply to the first comment on this poll. I’ll point you to his comment about reclaimed taxes.

Brian, I’d say the discrimination could work both ways. If the dept has to help fund a private school at the expense of a disadvantaged school isn’t that unfair on the child who, though no fault of the child, cannot afford to go to a private school?

I’ve been a pupil in school where we had to wear our jackets in school when the oil ran out and that had a load of leaks. I’ve taught in a school where the woodwork room had only 6 planes and 8 coping saws when they needed 4 times the amount they had. That school needs more SNA’s and I’m sure they need more things that I’m not aware of.

Now you want to tell me the kids in private schools are being discriminated against?? Please. These schools need more funding, and currently were pumping money into schools that have the best of everything and are already fee paying.

Sean if state funding is spread around to each child equally then why should a fee paying student have his funding taken from him? It’s not his fault that the school down the road is in tatters. I never said that fee paying students were being discriminated against , I said that by cutting their state funding they would be discriminated against. If their schools have the best of everything it is because parents have spent extra to provide that equipment through fees. Non fee paying schools could have the same standard if the parents also paid fees, it’s a fairly simple concept.

The problem with Ireland is massive begrudgery of anyone who has more than someone else no matter how hard they worked for it. Everybody wants everything done for them and paid for by someone else. They expect the same standard of living without having to work for it or pay for it. Fair enough some parents con’t pay the extra amount but should we penalize other parents because they can? Doesn’t each child deserve a minimum and equal input from the State regardless of background? If there is extra left over then by all means put it into deserving schools.

Not every school does get equal funding, and disadvantaged schools do get a certain amount more, but not near enough. Private school children would not be discriminated against as they would still have their right to a free education, they would simply be opting out of it.

It is the duty of a society to help those at the bottom to live better lives and give them a fighting chance to get to the top. They can’t do this if their school is a load of shite! So yeah, I’d have nothing against subsidising these schools if we had the money, but we don’t. There will be huge cuts in the future, and I know what type of schools and students spared cuts.

Sean not only does your argument for children “opting out” of free education not make the slightest bit of sense it would also be unconstitutional. Article 42.2 “The State shall not oblige parents in violation of their conscience and lawful preference to send their children to schools established by the State, or to any particular type of school designated by the State.” By telling parents that if they want free education then they have to go to a specific school the State would be in violation of the Constitution.

You said yourself that disadvantaged schools do get more funding but not enough but who’s fault is that? As I have already said in other postings each school has a school board and it is up to them to fight their corner and not moan about what everybody else has got. If a school isn’t getting the funding that it should be getting then someone isn’t doing their job very well. How many parents even turn up at school board meetings but bitch and moan constantly saying someone should do something (except them of course). Why should fee paying children have to opt out of their right to free education because of the incompetence of others. If there are cuts in future then the schools that will face cuts will be the schools with a shite board of management. I suggest that a reform of those boards should come before you start forcing children to give up their right to free education.

If you send your child to a private school,
then its up to you to pay full whack.

If like the majority, you can’t afford to do so,
then you go to a public school.

Either everyone is special in the eyes of the state,
or nobody is special. Either Or, makes no difference.

Joseph you totally shot down your own argument! “Either everyone is special in the eyes of the state,
or nobody is special. Either Or, makes no difference.”

Either everyone gets subsidized by the State or nobody gets subsidized by the State. Either Or.

i wasn’t goin to bother commenting on this article
as i knew it is a minefield.
ive read your posts, they are well thought out.
Im not going to argue with you at all.
If it ever came to me personally having some sort of vote
about this issue,
i would be voting to withdraw ALL funding to private schools.

Brian Ward,
I’ve tried to explain the constitutional pledge that every child is treated equally on this site before. But unfortunately, the majority of posters don’t understand it.
The fact is, every child is entitled to education provided by the state. It’s not that hard to understand.
Also, your point about the school board. I went to the parents meeting to appoint 2 parents to the school board last October. 7 parents in total attended. Out of a school that has over 200 pupils.
A state school, not private, I might add.

Your choice. Your bill.

It wont happen. How many politicians and top civil servants are sending their kids to fee paying schools. So many rich and influential people. They have a lot of power. Some of these schools charge 5 grand a year and have upto 600 pupils. 3 million euro in the account.

*cough* full of shite *cough*

That’s a largely mythical situation, not that there aren’t such cases but there are many more who don’t drink or smoke and can never afford private elitist schools for their children. I have seen enough of the snobbery and nose-pinching class distinction in England, thanks very much. I though we were supposed to be a classless society here, fair and decent one and all. If we copy the dumb neighbour what will we have left to be proud of?

Yes indeed John you’ve got a handle on us working class folk alright, we’re all chain smoking drunkards, who lock our children in garden sheds while indulging our vices in the local tavern, then return late at night to beat our spouses. Why does it always appear or be people pictured on board large yachts who make comments like these?

What about children of single parents of under- privileged means who don’t smoke and go out drinking, yet haven’t got the funds on one income alone?

Megan
That would be typical of many big organisations. They can secure reductions for their staff. My friends work in the computer industry. They have their health insurance paid for them.

Also, Afaik, you can get that health package whether you are a teacher or not. It’s like a corporate package

If they are “better ” then they should survive quiet well without state subsidies, Capitalism is about to follow Communism into history’s dustbin

No one is looking for a return to communism but there has to be something better cause this system stinks to high heaven. And yeah capitalism is destroying the planet and your kids future so lets all continue with the status quo and we will see how long it lasts.

Jack I think you’ll find from these threads and from others that people pay for private education so that their children will have a better education. It’s not a protection against reality, fee paying schools aren’t in the twilight zone.

I’ll agree with you that some students in fee paying schools get higher points than they deserve or would have gotten had they been in public schools, and that they in turn skip the queue to get into college than the naturally more intelligent yet disadvantaged, but after that they’re on their own. When I graduate I won’t get a job beyond my talent because I went to a private school, my job prospects will be based on my college results, and later in life by employment experience. If I’m mediocre I won’t make it, reagardless of my secondary school background.

Brendan,

Spend a day in the Law Library and come back to me and tell me that the advantage is not lifelong.

Make an inventory of the idiots that destroyed this country and see if those who went to fee-paying schools are represented in the same way they are in the general population.

You want to pay for your childs education and give the little mite an unfair advantage? Fine, then pay for it. Don’t expect the taxpayer to contribute.

“Spend a day in the Law Library and come back to me and tell me that the advantage is not lifelong.”

Dave is it not equally likely that children from wealthy families have these jobs because their parents, being rich, may have been highly educated? And therefore value education, and provide a stronger encouragement for their child to do well than the average, which means their child in turn values education and gets a job like these people in the Law Library?

“Make an inventory of the idiots that destroyed this country and see if those who went to fee-paying schools are represented in the same way they are in the general population.”

Whats that going to prove?

Why is the advantage unfair? i’ve been teaching grinds for the last two years, to a lot of rich kids and a lot of poor. Am I giving them an unfair advantage? Should that practice be outlawed? Or should the government pull from their schools because they put together the cash to pay me?

Brendan,

The point is that if you want to take your child out of the State education system and pay for their education yourself then off you go.

Pay for it. Pay for grinds, whatever you want.

Off you go, by all means.

Pay your €35,000 a year or whatever the true cost is without state subvention.

I am all on for that.

Dave in case you haven’t noticed the Leaving Cert exam doesn’t ask if you went to a fee paying school or not. If some is thick then no amount of money is going to get them an A in physics no matter what school they get into. If these people do get into higher professions it is because they worked hard and got their exams, the same exams that everyone else has to sit.

It seems to me that you are suffering from a case of envious snobbery seeing as you go on about peoples accents, their supposedly posh names and the fact that they do well in life. I happen to know a few students past and present who went to a local fee paying school and you couldn’t find more down to earth, unposh people. They certainly don’t display the blatant social discrimination that you display. basing you perceptions on ones education and income rather than on ones abilities. Just remember it could well be one of those people that treats you for backache seeing as you are carrying around such a huge chip on your shoulder!

Brian,

what you are saying makes no sense.

In a free economy, if a paid-for good has no extra utility compared to a free good the market for it will quickly cease to exist.

People pay for schooling in the expectation of utility, in other words that it WILL affect the outcome.

Like I said, I have no problem with people who want to pay for their own childrens education.

Just let them pay the full cost, thats all.

But why should they pay the full cost, just because they want to put a little extra investment in?

Before I started paying house keep, if my mam found out I’d bought extra food and brought it home, she wouldn’t say “Well if you have the money to buy that you’re not getting free food from here anymore!”

Brendan,

It’s a zero sum game – for the state at least.

If the people who want a “private” education for their children actually had the gumption to go and do just that it would free up a lot of funds for everybody else.

Go private and pay your €35,000, let the saving to the rest of us be used wisely.

If you feel that finishing school in Switzerland afterwards is appropriate, off you go and pay for that as well.

Obviously, though, I do feel that the state should make a contribution towards all Debs dance cleaning bills.

Well then Dave shouldn’t they get full tax relief for the fees paid? If they are not going to get any support from the State then why should they pay extra tax to subsidise other schools? Either the State treats all children equally in terms of free education or it allows for full tax relief for those pupils that will not get free education. If parents send their child to a fee paying school and pays full whack then why should they be penalized further by having to pay tax to educate other children?

People seem to forget that a fee paying school is where parents pay extra to educate their child. By and large these schools are open to everyone not just the wealthy. Every child in Ireland has a right to education but you seem to want to take away that right just because someone has money. If, as has been quoted above , it costs €8000 to educate a child and this is for ALL children why should those people who want to top up their child’s education be penalized? All children should be treated equally in the eyes of the State and not just based on their income.

“Topping-up” your child’s education is not like topping up your phone.

Topping up your phone does not adversely affect anybody else.

Using money to give one child a competitive advantage over others does.

It is ridiculous, as the children who go to fee-paying schools are already comparatively privileged in so many other ways that they should not need the additional benefits of educational apartheid in order to develop into reasonable and functioning adults.

Dave where are you getting this €35000 a year from? To the best of my knowledge the most expensive schools are €10,000 a year max.

and if its a zero sum game, than what do you think of the arguments above that stopping funding to private schools will lead more students to pour into state schools where the government contribution is twice as high?

Dave what is so wrong about giving your child the best start in life? Do you want to hold children back because they might be smarter than their peers? How does a child going to a fee paying school “adversely” affect a child in a non-fee paying school down the road. Is there some sort of brain drain causing the State school students to drop 15 IQ points to the betterment of the fee paying kids. Give me a break.

As for your “zero sum game” you might want to read this http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/david-quinn-feepaying-schools-are-not-a-drain-on-taxpayers-2981436.html “There are 26,000 pupils in our fee-paying schools, meaning the total annual saving to the taxpayer is €91m.

That is what it would cost the State if all the fee-paying schools closed in the morning — so those who resent them and wish for them to close should be very careful what they wish for.”

That chip on your shoulder seems to be getting bigger by the minute. The average fee for a fee paying school is €5,000 not €35,000 and cracks about “finishing school in Switzerland” and ” Debs dance cleaning bills.” clearly shows that this is less about money and more about self entitlement from your part.

Agreed Graham educating kids together is the only way to go, end this class segregation of children.

Why does everyone assume that if you send your children to a private school your mega rich and deserve to pay double what you already pay while those in public schools pay nothing, this argument is ridiculous.

The state must offer all children equal rights and access to education, the families of those going to private schools save the state the full cost of this, and people are in uproar! Most bizarre attitude to have as not everyone in a private school find it as easy as ye seem to think to fund their children’s education, the majority of them scrape and borrow to offer their children a hopefully better education and opportunity to learn

Would any of you not do the same for your children?? Take out loans to educate your sons and daughters, go on then, don’t let your lack of money stop your child from having the best chance of a good education and more choice in subjects………..Easier to gripe I suppose at those that did!

I went to public school run my a shower of bigoted religious clown (actually my choice) while my two sisters went to private, they did well and honesty i believe didn’t have the distractions and lack of interest I had, my parents like many saved to send them there, I’m not sure about needing loans, but there weren’t too many holidays or waste when I was growing up. Why should my folks have paid double to give my sisters every chance they could?
Jealous snobbery is all I read here from so many

Far from jealous.
Far far from it. :D

You’ve mentioned this in about five comments on this article so far, but I can’t find any information about claiming back tax relief on private school fees in this country. Can you point me at any links to this in Irish tax law?

Every thing that you are on about is open to every citizen in the state not just the rich so what are you on about? The average PAYE worker claims back tax on their health insurance and pension through their wages. They are also entitled to claim every other tax relief scheme going. The system whereby a school sets themselves up as a charity so as to provide tax relief on “donations” is authorised by the Revenue Commissioners so it is completely within the law. Whether you are making €25K or €250k it doesn’t matter the scheme is open to everyone.

You can NOT claim back tax on school fees. That’s just plain NOT true, and I’ve no idea why you keep posting it as though it were fact.

@Katherine he’s also conveniently not replying to questions about where he’s getting his information from. I call BS.

@Graham.
Tax cant be claimed back directly but organisations have ways around this. Setting oneself up for charitable donations enables one to claim back tax.
Not surprising the gov have started to crack down on this.

Then you are talking about tax relief on additional, optional money a tiny minority of very wealthy people choose to donate to a school. That is not the same thing as school fees.

@Graham @Katherine
http://www.revenue.ie/en/business/authorised-charities.html

Brian posted this above. With a quick F3 search you can see a lot of schools on that list, some primary, but a lot secondary.

Although I’ve gotten as far as E without finding a fee paying one

Never mind, Gonzaga are listed there, with a €5000 a year fee, Brian’s right.

@Brendan thank you for finding that link. However, this information (http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/it/leaflets/chy2.pdf ) states how an organization may claim back tax when receiving a donation. It provides no evidence for Tigers original assertion that *parents who are paying school fees* can somehow claim back some of it for themselves.

@Graham
Google “Tax Relief for Donations to eligible Charities”, and click on the first link, its a pdf from revenue.ie. Check out from page 3, “Nature of Relief”, and the examples, especially self-employed, how individuals can claim tax back, or pay less to the school since the school as a charity can take the remainder of the payment from revenue provided the donor says sufficient tax.

@Brendan the first pdf I get is the one I just linked you, this one: http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/it/leaflets/chy2.pdf – I assume this is the one you are talking about since it includes the “Nature of relief” section on page 3?

The only thing I see in this document is how either the organization being donated to or the individual doing the donating may claim some tax back from the donation, it doesn’t say anything about school fees, partial payment of school fees with donations or anything else like that in there, just how to clam back tax when making a donation to a charitable institution.

Yeah Graham thats the one. I think the argument is that the payment of school fees can be considered donations. Whether they can or not I don’t know.

No, they cannot.

I think we are all familiar with the ‘voluntary’ contribution, on which most national schools now rely. There is a tax rebate on this, which the school benefits from. My understanding is that if a school is a charity, then donations can be made to it and can realise similar benefits in the form of rebates for the school. This is the case whether the school is a private or not.

It has nothing to do with fees.

I think that this http://www.svp.ie/help-us/fundraising/tax-effective-giving.aspx?gclid=CITz572dsq8CFcFB4QodzxvPGA might clear up the confusion. If you are a PAYE worker the charity gains you don’t. If you are self employed both gain. The fee’s paid would be given as a “donation” as opposed to an actual “fee”. So if you are a PAYE worker and you pay €5,000 it is a “fee” with no tax rebate. On the other hand if you are self employed you pay a €5,000 “donation” and avail of the tax break. There is however a line in the CHY2 cert that says “Neither I nor any person connected with me have received or will receive a benefit in
consequence of having made this donation” so that would seem to negate the whole thing.

On the whole I reckon that the whole tax rebate argument is a non starter but I stand to be corrected on that.

You are incorrect on the tax refund issue. Parents cannot claim tax back on school fees and neither can the school. Only schools that have voluntary contributions of more than e250 per annum from a parent can claim tax back at the parent’s marginal rate. Having said that I don’t agree with state subsidy of private education no more than I agree with the state subsidising private healthcare. It is a fairness and equity issue not an economic argument. And state schools need to be accessible for all religions and none.

1. Unfair generalisation 2. As stated above a lot of people are just about making the payments as it is and would have to move the kid to a public school where you’d be subsidising the ‘posh little feckers’ even more. 3. Assuming the parents are in fact higher income earners as would tend to be the commonly accepted profile and that a private education gives a person greater access to higher income occupations they will be paying for themselves in no time

If anyone’s subsidising anyone, it’s the parents who pay fees subsidising the cost to the state of educating their children…

Tax deductible fee’s Megan. Another

Are their children not allowed in the public schools? Private schools should be privately funded. End of.

Ok, I’ve had it with the rich kids thing! Let me tell you what is more normal.

I have one child. He goes to a private school. He goes there because we believe it to be the best school for him, and for his particular needs, in the locality. Not that it is the best school in the locality note – there are several at least on a par, some with a better academic record, though I don’t believe that’s all that education is about. It’s because we genuinely feel it is the school that is best for HIM.

If I’d two kids this would be a non-runner. We are NOT rich, by any stretch. Yeah we have 2 cars, needed for work, but one is 14 years old, the other 10 years old. Home is not a shiny mansion, it’s a small 3 bed semi-d. The last overseas family holiday we took was almost 10 years ago, and was paid for by a small legacy I received from an uncle.

I’m not for one second moaning about any of those things, we work for our money,pay our taxes, and are perfectly happy with our choices about spending what’s left. One of those choices is to spend money on school fees. If they went up to almost double, we’re out and back to the public system. It becomes undoable.

We are by no means unusual among parents in the school.

School fees are not tax deductable, fact!!!! By all means participate in a discussion but at least get your fact right.

‘facts’ even

Bag of chips Sharon?

and wait, guidance counsellors and SNAs are being cut and we’re paying taxes for schools with excellent facilities?

We really need to get our priorities straight.

The best thing to do is to have is phased out over a 6 year period. So that by 2018, there will be no support given and people can choose for themselves if they want to go private. Also kids already in the private system can finish out their education with current class mates

I was one of the Don’t Knows. Needed more facts and figures on value for money. Not a simple yes or no as you make out.

Hi Shane,

The question is the last one asked (in bold) before the options are given:

Should the State stop providing funds to fee-paying schools?

The other questions are just to provide food-for-thought, etc.

Hope that answers your query.

Sinead