You’re dead right!

If they committed murder, then yeah I would. Wouldn’t it be hypocritical not to?

If your brother committed rape, wouldn’t you call him a rapist?

AH but these male virgins in the Vatican need more children to abuse! Maybe theyre hoping for more homes like Goldenbridge and Letterfrack if there are more unwanted children in the country!

They are

@ Bandara boy, You could not have phrased it better, absolutely agree

@bandaraboy, wid give u a million thumbs up if u cud. Brilliantly phrased.

2,000 year old storybook about a mythological zombie

I didn’t know there was zombies in it! I love zombies! Is it better than The Walking Dead? I might give it an auld read now.

lets not forget, also, people who cannot afford to travel for abortions (so the rich can and the poor have children they dont want), AND refugees! http://safeandlegal.blogspot.ie/2007/05/migrant-womens-grim-choice-on-abortion.html Imagine being stuck in a camp/hostel with a controlling or abusive partner who wont use contraception and forces himself upon you, then to end up pregnant even though you have loads of children already, and then you cant access abortion And you cant afford to leave And you are legally not permitted to leave the state…oh the reasons women have for choosing abortion are endless and who am i to tell her she Must have the child?

So I guess you support the UN and UK in paying poor women to have abortions and sterilisation so.

Yeah everytime Im away on hols I see the ‘Free Abortion’ posters everywhere! Glitter and steamers hanging out of them. Even offers of free shoes with every abortion.
bp, we get it, youre anti choice and anti abortion so heres the thing, dont have an abortion so even if you want the free shoes.

Bpeasy

Are you a troll?

Because your comments are embarrassing in there lack of structure and balance

It’s perfectly acceptable to disagree with something, but to conjure up untruths to misdirect people from making an informed opinion is both dishonest and brings nothing but a discredit to your viewpoint.

Please deal in reality, this topic is too serious to be infantile with.

bp is on a same sex marriage page talking about how marriage is between a man and a woman. Check out his twitter account. Its set up just for trolling.

Making rape, murer, theft and texting while driving illegal haven’t stopped those either

I think you need to look up the word hypocrisy

Bravo, very well said. We’re entitled to choose.

Yes – but not the bodies of their innocent children, whose bodies they don’t own…

Adam you are wrong. Go to the back of the line……….there’s always ONE isn’t there!!!

Why isn’t contraception, or more to the point, the failure of contraception, a “genuine” enough reason? If you are doing everything you can to prevent pregnancy, and you still fall unwantedly pregnant, that is an excellent reason to terminate it, the quicker the better. The more obstacles are put in your way, the longer it will take for you to do this.

But it is worth pointing out the facts here. Where abortion is safe, legal, and accessible, over 80% are carried out in the first 8 weeks, and well over 95% in the first 12 weeks – long before a foetus develops ANY sign of sentience or awareness.

My understanding is that women who do not wish to be pregnant generally do not agonise or delay, but seek abortions early, unless legal or other obstacles are put in their way.

In contrast later abortions (less than 5% of the total) follow a different trajectory, one that frequently starts with a WANTED pregnancy that presents with health complications for mother or baby, and ultimately requires termination as part of the required medical care in that situation.

The idea that women who do not wish to be pregnant simply wait around being pregnant five months and then flippantly say, “Arragh, I’ll get an abortion” is almost inconceivable!

And it doesn’t take away the fact that, yes, contraception, or more correctly, family planning, and taking personal responsibility for your life and your family, is a “genuine” reason for an abortion.

I agree with your point on the failure of contraception, I meant it didn’t make sense to use it for contraception in general when there are simpler, cheaper and more convenient methods available. On everything else you’ve said, I agree.
I think this whole debate would be fine if it was just thrashed out, calmly, by those with opposing views for moral reasons alone and leave the outlandish religous stuff for private consumption. I think Mark Twain said it best;
“The church is always trying to get other people to reform; it might not be a bad idea to reform itself a little, by way of example.”

My point is, that rarely happens.

I personally have never known anyone to “use abortion INSTEAD of contraception.” I have known several for whom contraception failed. It happens.

Although, I have often witnessed a different, and worrying, phenomenon where people’s ability to be happy and responsible sexual agents has been so fecked up by their religious upbringing, that they rely on alcohol to remove their inhibitions and engage with sexual partners at a remove, as if it all just “happened” rather than as if anyone actually decided to have sex together.

This, of course leads to all sorts of risks not being properly evaluated or sensibly discussed – STD’s, unwanted pregnancy, unrealistic expectations, etc.

Against that background, the whole “abortion as a contraception substitute” line always strikes me as specious. (also it has the marks of the fevered imaginings religious people become obsessed with when contemplating the sexual lives of others.)

On everything you have just said, I couldn’t agree more.

I reckon YD are hiding in the toilets in the airports and ports testing womens urine. If they find a pregnant one theyll scream and shout, try and shame her into not going anywhere!

ONCE and for all? It’s already happened more than once. But sure, pile ‘em on until you get the right result, right?

Irish law is as clear as day! Life begins at implantation. Where there is a threat to the life of the mother, treatment which terminates a pregnancy is legal

Legislation on this would/will just be window dressing

Very well put! As Bill Hicks said ‘pro-life?…wow ye all sure look it doncha?’.. :D

(Pardon the terrible spelling, the comment box disappears behind the keypad on the iPhone)
child she has created? Again, I see exemptions in sexual assault but my faith in humanity would be greatly reduced if Ireland were to introduce access to abortion across the board. I’m not a Catholic, never have been and never will be. My opposition comes from a humanistic point of view, as well as being a 21 year old woman who has witnessed more than enough times the harrowing and long lasting effects abortion has on an individual and their partner. Again, not religious, so please don’t tar us all with the same brush.

what about cases where the life of the mother and child may be at risk by the pregnancy, it’s not always a black and white case of “murder”

A foetus isnt a child. It relies on another persons body to provide life support. Its not any persons responsibility to provide this against their will.

Which is what the X case High court ruling was about Paul but so many wish to ignore that.
The expert group has to report back, and any legislation will be for the narrow remit which the high court
approved where they life of the woman is in dire risk.

Cases where pregnancy poses a threat to the life of the mother or child should be examined on an individual basis, anti abortion doesn’t mean I wish suffering upon anyone. And yes, a foetus relies upon the mother for its vitality and wellbeing, therefor the creator has this responsibility. It has absolutely no other way to take care of itself, it is the ultimate vulnerable being and so that is why I feel unborn children deserve basic human rights. Again, cases of sexual assault are to be considered in their own terms.

A foe

Again Amy, if a pregnant woman is smoking and drinking during her pregnancy, should she be locked in a room and forced into a healthier lifestyle during her pregnancy? Youre talking about a womans responsibility to her foetus so should she be charged with abuse?

No Tommy, I don’t think that. Please don’t twist my words, why am I not entitled to my opinion in the way you are, just because you don’t agree with it. You seem to think my aim is to punish people, that’s honestly not what I am about. I’m not looking to police women who choose to treat their bodies and pregnancies in a certain way, I just don’t want to live in a society where abortion is an acceptable option for unwanted pregnancy that is not a result of sexual assault. I’m not looking for anyone to suffer.

You dont want anyone to suffer yet you feel its ok for a woman to have to remain pregnant? I cannot imagine what its like to have an unwanted presence in my body and I never will but I respect a womans right to remove it from her body. I respect a womans right to determine when she carries a pregnancy to term.

That’s great Tommy, it’s good to know you live your life by conviction in your belief. Please allow me to do the same, I don’t agree with abortion (except for circumstances already outlined), and I won’t say that I will. That doesn’t make me a bad person.

so Amy you ARE pro choice then? you seem to be painting all of the pro choice people with the same brush. not all of the pro choice marchers are for on demand abortion and like yourself want the choice to be there for women who for individual reasons such as rape or danger to their health or even the fetus health can not go through with the pregnancy. and then of course there are people marching for pro choice no matter what the reason/circumstances…

some of the comments on this article are just ridiculous (not aiming this at you Amy). people have and are entitled their opinions and views but some commentors feel the need to express their view at every single person who has a different opinion than them. we got your point the first time seriously no need to be repeating yourselves!

Amy i know where you are coming from(not all lifers are religious), as a pro-choicer who has never had an abortion….i dont want women forced to carry an unwanted pregnancy as Tommy says, i also feel the further along the pregnancy goes im more uncomfortable with the idea of abortion(so maybe early term abortions are ok but a limit has to be set?) I think if men were able to get pregnant Abortion would be not even discussed it would be a right without a doubt, SO what it boils down to…don’t think you could forgive yourself for aborting then don’t have one, but let women decide for themselves the intricacies of each life makes the decision (ie poverty, age, reliability of a partner, stage of college/career, health issues, rape, religion, family support or lack of…..)

I presume Tommy is morally opposed to life support machines too.

Amy, it’s comforting for people to tell themselves they are being persecuted by the Church(es). It also gives them a free pass on answering any questions about abortion that they don’t want to answer

“A foetus isnt a child. It relies on another persons body to provide life support. ”

How well will a newborn or a quadriplegic fare without constant supervision? \

If a mother chooses to leave her newborn infant on the doorstep so it can make it’s own way in the world, is that a valid choice? If not, when does the duty of care come into existence? 12 weeks? 26 weeks? Why at that point? What is the criteria for recognising the occupant of the womb as human life?

Maybe you think the occupant of the womb is never human life until birth. Then abortion is private matter up until the moment of labour, right?

Now, here come the comments telling me that;
1. “Stop being ridiculous. No mother would ever look for an abortion at 8 and a half months, so we don’t need to worry about that.” To which I say; Sarah Catt

2. “No mother would ever kill a newborn infant, so we don’t need to legislate for that.” To which I say http://www.thejournal.ie/german-woman-five-babies-613806-Sep2012/

I am pro choice. And i completely agree with what amy is saying. Would i be right in thinking you are only against it as a form of contraception? Because that is my view too, however i dont think it is the governments job to decide when that iS the case, therefore, i am pro choice

*bandara

However many turn up, you can add on the 5000-6000 who travel for abortions every year.

I think Clare daly is sound. I think ppl who support not giving fellow women choices are hags.

Hi Annie

As I said I have 100% respect for ‘genuine’ anti-abortion campaigners

Like all topics endless debate must be taken inboard before an outcome (referendum) is decided.

I’m just glad the topic can be debated now unlike before due to the Church shutting it down for their own reasons

Whatever the people decide I will respect and support.

“I called someone a name, but don’t call me a name cos that’s wrong”.
Fine, fine reasoning lady!!

The numbers attending the hurling replay will be increased by the media reporting of it as well. There is no anti- hurling event organised is there.

This is a march of would be child killers. It’s usually their type knocking the church for abusing children, yet they are campaigning for the ultimate abuse of children by killing them. Terrible people.

I’m sure the Journal will be giving plenty of advance warning of any future anti-choice demos.

@Alan Percipient comment. I hadn’t spotted the moral equivalences before

July next year not enough notice?

Alan. Ask a young girl who’s pregnant and had been raped if she agrees with you. You seem like an ignorant thinks-he-knows-it-all kind of guy. The worst type.

Rebecca, its just as well Alan cant be raped and made pregnant! Im sure if his daughter was in hospital after been raped and beaten about the place he might have a different opinion.

Religious people: Hardly anyone is pro-abortion. Pro-abortion and pro-choice are two completely different things. I for example am anti abortion AND pro choice. I believe we all get only one shot at life, a shot we are incredibly lucky to get and if a woman finds for any reason that she can’t bring a potential life to term, that is, at the risk of understatement, a great pity. However, I have absolutely no right to tell a woman what she can or can’t do with her own body.

The point people constantly seem to ignore is that it’s not just the girls body. It’s also the body of her unborn child. Rape doesn’t change this. Plenty of children have been born as a result of rape and gone on to great things.

Great point Alan. Sure just rape woman to increase the population.
A woman owns her body, a foetus doesnt.

And the award for most crass and insensitive comment of the week goes to Alan Quinn.

It’s not a child, it’s a foetus. It’s not a sentient being at the age at which a country like the UK allows abortions. Furthermore, abortion is essentially legal in Ireland, but we import them by sending people abroad for them. That’s moral cowardice and it also prevents us from setting out the rules for abortion. It also forces a vulnerable group in society, women who are having abortions, to suffer further through what is already a traumatic process.

Our refusal to provide our own abortion service is simply cowardly and doesn’t reflect the facts of abortion.

@Mark Nice point.

What I’d also like to add is that having the OPTION of abortion does NOT FORCE anyone to have an abortion. (It’s a bit like the gay marriage argument in that sense.)

“Balanced” journalism is a shiboleth. Sometimes the two sides are not equally right, equally fact-based, equally conducive to the common good.

Make your arguments here, like everyone else, but if people aren’t buying it, it’s not because of bias in thejournal.ie, or any other media, it’s because you are failing to make your case persuasive enough.

And no amount of “balance” can make a bad argument into a good one.

“A woman owns her body, a foetus doesnt.”

Which is why this woman got so much support from the Guardian (surprise surprise)

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/courts/mother-jailed-for-inducing-abortion-3233168.html

It’s just a cluster of cells, right?

Any hurling protest at spire tomorrow
probably get more than the rally for choice had today

You know what is amazing about people like yourself. You care so much about an unborn fetus but once a mentally disabled baby or disfigured baby in extreme pain is born; you could care less. Who is going to care for that baby, when it’s older? Do you know how many of them actually live a somewhat decent life?!

And you think much good can come from the intimidation and smear tactics employed by certain anti-choice groups? Get a grip.

@Kevin, did you actually just make a comment so sweeping that you claim every person who is anti abortion couldn’t care less about disabled children being born. I’m anti abortion and a special needs assistant, I beleve everyone has the right to life more than women have the right to decide.

So Amy, a woman has less rights than a foetus? Seriously? Would you prefer if every pregnant woman who considered abortion was locked in a room and forced to give birth? What about pregnant women who drink and smoke? Does the foetus have more of a right to a clean environment for developing in that the woman does to drink or smoke? Should we charge these women with abuse?

bpdeasy no one is celebrating the ability to kill babies, we actually cannot have abortions in Ireland, did you know this? it is a March For Choice

Neo liberal abortion loving readers on here, tbh not surprised.

We believe that woman can make decisions for themselves. Obviously youd rather they werent allowed.

Abortions can be carried out in Ireland when it is deemed that carrying the pregnancy to full term would place the life of the mother at risk.

Michael, thats only true for ectopics or when theres placental issues. Unfortunately, I meet women everyday with issues like ovarian cancers or cervical cancers etc who need treatment yet are pregnant and who end up having to travel abroad for abortions instead of being able to have them here and then begin their cancer treatment.

FAO Kevin Niazi

Please, please, please watch this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=om7O0MFkmpw

Taramolloy…let’s hear your further stories on the labour party and their connections??!!
You cannot deny she supported these parents…are you defending her actions and the actions of the parents???

You had me up to new world order, paranoid much? How is Jim Corr these days.

I couldn’t agree more. There is a book out now called “Adam & Eve after the pill”. It looks at the damage done since the introduction of contraception and how all the predictions have come true. Abortion on demand being a result of access to contraception. Anti-life means being for death.

It’s not the UN. It’s the Fraternity of the Order if the Sion Knights Freemason Templars. They’re plan is to abort all the people so the noble weasel may inherit the earth.

Oh yes Pierce. The same new world order that wants to make men and women interchangeable, make everyone believe that to be gay is the most amazing thing we can do with our lives and the ability to kill babies in the womb. If it’s fantasy then why did France remove all references to father and mother from official documents during the week. And that by the way slipped through the journal.ie net.

What has a middle of the road musician got to do with my comment Peirce, we just had a meeting of world leaders at UN HQ, why not check some of their speeches out? Obviously 20-20 doesn’t apply to your foresight or insight

@ Deasun, well Jim Corr is a favourite on your facebook book page.

@ bpdeasy, could you send me on the new world order manifesto as it seems like you can attribute anything you like to them.

Pierce the first line of the manifesto is “wake up and smell the coffee before it’s too late for your children and grandchildren”.

So bpdeasy, the manifesto is just a series of clichés then, grand good to know

congratulations deas?in, that’s a whole new special kind of mental. absolutely breath-taking.

Human rights, childrens rights pretain to human beings who are here now and who deserve the best. A foetus is living off someone elses body. The owner of that body is the one who deserves their human rights to be recognised.

Deasun, ‘I’m all for gender equility, however feminism is one of the most dangerous tools’. who is the double speaker now! Have you told your daughter that shes not equal to your son and that there are things she cant do because shes female? What about your wife? Barefoot by the sink and pregnant while looking after you for most of her reproductive life was she? You are the reason feminism exists! Cave man!

@ tommyc, firstly, the mother of my daughters sadly died 7 yrs ago, secondly gener equality and feminism are two seperate issues, they have about has much in common as chalk and cheese , I suggest you research your information before throwing falsehoods and inuendo , also it may help you in your search for knowledge to take a look at Margaret Sanger , a vile, racist excuse of a human who championed the extermination of black people, the sterilization of people of low IQ’s, and the right of women to commit infanticide etc.etc.. , she is championed as the mother of feminism to this day, and I’m called a neanderthal for not supporting her feminist agenda. Get a grip buddy

Gender equality and feminism are exactly the same thing! The feminist movement began due to lack of gender equality.
However as men cannot get pregnant, abortion is an issue that woman get the say over. You cannot be forced to support my life against your will via your body so a woman cannot and should not be forced to provide life support either. Womens reasons for aborting are vast and complex so please dont patronise them.

The article tells about a march next July, or do you just read what you want to see?

Youth Defence just had a campaign of lies with posters and billboards all over the place.
They need to change their name to Foetal Defence because they dont care about the young.

Youth defence….march for madness!! Didn’t the daughters of that mad bi@&ch bean ui cribban set up youth defence??? Same people who supported the parents of the Roscommon abuse case, even paying for their legal team???
You are “evil” to have an abortion, but it’s ok to physically, emotionally and sexually abuse your living children.
Youth defence…biggest bunch of hypocrites in this country.
Pro choice rally is about a womans right to information to choose…whether that is abortion or not

Youth defence….march for madness!! Didn’t the daughters of that mad bean ui cribban set up youth defence??? Same people who supported the parents of the Roscommon abuse case, even paying for their legal team???
You are “evil” to have an abortion, but it’s ok to physically, emotionally and sexually abuse your living children.
Youth defence…biggest bunch of hypocrites in this country.
Pro choice rally is about a womans right to information to choose…whether that is abortion or not

It didn’t make any sense the first time, don’t know why you repeated yourself.

This march is NOT about people “killing” babies….it is about giving women a choice over their bodies and their lives…You obviously live in a utopian world where everything is brilliant and life always works put

Ok, so what about when an ectopic pregnancy ruptures? Would you prefer doctors just stood around watching the woman bleed to death?
Or what about Placental Abruption’s?
Or what if its detected that the foetus is anencephalic? Would you prefer that the parents be subjected to such a horrific condition, where they know that their “baby” will not see out the next hour of its life?
Abortion is already carried out in Ireland, fine we may not call it abortion, we might call it a treatment for ectopic pregnancy, or a treatment for placental abruption, or we might say that as a result of an anencephaly, it would be better if we induced early. We preserve the life of the mother so that in time, when she is ready, she can decide that she wants to become pregnant again.
Your sweeping statement is an insult to women, it is an insult to fathers, and families. It is an insult to the medical staff of our hospitals, and most of all, it is an insult to society.
Yes, there are services there to deal with unwanted pregnancies, adoption, foster care, but sometimes they can have such a negative affect on the mother that she becomes a non-productive member of society – is that what you want? “You’ve done your civic duty in giving us your unborn child Mrs, now you can go jump off a bridge”. You think it doesn’t happen? It happens. You stand in the lobby of any maternity hospital on the planet and you’ll see it.
Who am I, as someone who has never been married, is a gay man, never likely to give birth (thanks biology), to dictate when a 16 year old girl is ready for pure and simple childbirth? Who am I to dictate to a 34 year old mother of 2 that because we are not allowed carry out termination of her pregnancy, instead of her preparing to give birth to an addition to her young family, she has to prepare for her own death?
Giving birth is one of the most intimidating things you can do, even when the pregnancy was planned. You throw in the emotions that go with unplanned pregnancy, teenage pregnancy, the chance of a still born, the chance of maternal death, and you’re changing the whole dynamic.
Don’t insult the medics, they know what they are doing, they have the ability to treat and work with a whole plethora of conditions, issues, problems, patients, you name it, just allow them do it.

Michael, I agree with all your points bar one. Adoption etc is an alternative to parenting not abortion. Abortion is for woman who do not want to be pregnant for whatever reason. Adoption is for woman who want to be pregnant but do not want to or cant for whatever reason be a parent.

Tommy C, abortion is not so black and white as to say that the mother just doesn’t want to be pregnant, it’s never that simple. Adoption is one alternative to abortion, as parenting is one of the main reasons for Irish travelling to the UK for abortion, they are too young, too old, not ready to parent, they’re not parenting material, other issues like substance abuse take effect. Yes, adoption is an alternative to parenting, but as a result of that – its also, in turn, an alternative to abortion.

And Im adopted!

Michael, Im directly involved in maternity services.

The only issue I took with your post was this -’there are services there to deal with unwanted pregnancies, adoption, foster care,’ Unwanted pregnancies dont usually end up in adoption or foster care. Unwanted children do. Unwanted pregnancies usually end in abortion.
I support abortion on demand by the way.

How about you stop posting anti abortion statements every few comments, and actually provide a decent argument to the people that have called you up on your point of view here.

Tommy C, I’m confused as to your differentiation between an unwanted pregnancy and an unwanted child. Do expectant mothers want the pregnancy but not the resulting child? Do expectant mothers believe that their pregnancy will result in anything other than a child?
Not every expectant mother can afford the plane ticket to the UK, adoptions as a result of unwanted pregnancies exist.

Ah the third world! So similar to what happens in Ireland! YD is funded by Americans and Americans are writing to our politicans to ensure abortion is never legalised in Ireland so who dya reckon is gonna be forcing Irish women to have abortions and into being sterilised/ Maybe Iran?

What’s your point? Britain will force sterilisation on Irish women? We’ll become Indian if we go on a march….OUT WITH IT MAN!!!

this is also reality bp: http://prochoicetruth.tumblr.com/post/32312585554

“murderesser”, no disrespect, but are you old enough to vote?

I can see it’s mislead. Yes I am old enough to vote. There should be a vote on such a subject.

I can see it’s mislead. Yes I am old enough to vote. There shouldn’t be a vote on such a subject.

there was….twice……..jus sayin’!!

Are you for real? Do you not remember we voted twice?
Settle for a nice man? Would that be the “nice” man that takes advantage of a teenager or the “nice” man that rapes a woman?
This is about a woman’s right to choose.

you still engaged in namecalling yourself and then argued against name calling.
I know we all do it but don’t whinge when it’s turned back on you!!

Go back to bed love. That or go get an edu-ma-cayshun. Your profile pic is saying everything for you. :)

Yes Annie. I am an actual waffle waitress. Well done.
Keep enjoying yourself ;)