a common sense suggestion?? down with that sort of thing!

Agreed, we need a vote on this matter.

Anyone against the ability to vote on this matter is only afarid of the answer that the people of Ireland would give and in my view people would vote yes to abortion in cases of the mothers life being at risk or in cases of rape or incest.

As well as fatal foetal abnormalities. I’m pro choice myself, but the vast majority of Irish people support legalisation in limited circumstances.

Agreed Stephanie. Its such a big and emotive issue that it needs a thorough examination and a specific vote. Its too general to put a vote to the people with: Abortion: yes or no?

Having a view on abortion doesn’t make one an extremist, Eileen.

I would rather be poor than not be at all.

Unfortunately we are already aware about how the state treats its children in this country and it’s not complimentary!

At least if abortion was legislated for it would also increase the likelihood if bringing in support mechanisms. Sending people abroad means no counselling at home.

John Ryan sums up the Youth Defence argument: I care more for a clump of cells than real living human beings.

John, being poor can be akin to a tortuous existence, not that you’d know I’m sure.

@John Ryan.

Your argument is, put simply – immature.

The fact that women who want abortion badly enough, for whatever reason, travel to the UK does not mean we don’t have it here. It is practically here. The figures available on the amount of people who do travel are skewed by the fact that only some give Irish addresses.

The only difference between an Irish person and a British person getting abortion is that the British person gets the all too important after-care, (physical, psychological). Something which many Irish do not get, whether for shame, fear, embarrassment, or, worryingly, their GP refusing to refer them onward to the appropriate after care service. This leaves many women more traumatised, on top of having to travel for what is, essentially, health care.

There are many arguments for abortion – Mothers health grounds, Baby’s health grounds, family setting (father has absconded, mother can’t provide), method of conception (rape), lack of education in the area of sexual health and relationships and most importantly, it allows for the legal establishment of the service, hence allowing for the area to be regulated in line with the legal guidelines already established for the rest of the medical field.

The fact that abortion could be legalised does not mean that every expectant mother is going to queue up around the block for the procedure, and does not remove the need for education in the area of sexual health. It means, that when all else fails, there is a full, safe, and viable service available.

If we continue to send women abroad for abortion, we are inhibiting their natural right to full and safe healthcare, forcing some to go “underground” and obtain illegal abortions, carried out by practitioners who are, at best, butchers, and worryingly, not usually reprimanded as deemed appropriate, as again, due to the shame, embarrassment, fear of the woman, she does not report the incident. We can only go by those who turn up in A&E with botched procedures carried out.

That is, if they get there before they bleed to death.

Martin what would make you think that? I not proud to say it but I can remember when my parents had absolutely nothing. I bet you wouldn’t know much about that.

I find it hard to believe such a dismissive comment about the poor came from someone who is poor. And I’m about 10 grand in debt and I lived off 10 grand last year, but judge away :)

Ha ha. You’re the one that is always judging people on every article you comment on

And I never said I am poor, it was only for a while when I was younger, I actually live a very comfortable life because I’ve earned it.

Judging rich bankers and fascists like yourself yeh :)

The problem is, John, that I can think of situations that I would rather not have been born than be born into. I work with sexual abuse survivors and some of them have had to deal with (abuse since birth) and as I try to live my life by the “do unto others” rule, how can I reconcile that with bringing a child into a situation which I would have preferred not to be born into?

So now abortion is the answer for a possibly grim future, poverty and to enable women to get counselling. Now, why would a woman need counselling after an abortion?. After all, she’s just had a “clump of cells” removed. Michael, all your references to sexual health and providing a “service” ignores the fact that abortion ends a human life. It’s tragic that women travel to Britain for abortions, but the tragedy is not to do with having to travel, it’s more about a society where women feel they can’t raise a child, whatever the circumstances. It’s not a minor matter that 196 082 abortions were carried out in England and Wales in 2011. That’s a huge loss of life and a dreadful loss to society. Sadly, the biggest loss is to the parents who’ll never have the joy of knowing what might have been. Once abortion is the chosen option, there’s no way of knowing how things would have worked out if another choice was made.

The biggest loss is to the parents? Wow, you clearly have not supported women through this procedure, have you?

I’ve had contact with women who’ve regretted their abortions. In fact, one of the big organisations that supports abortion has a section on its website for testimonials. Some heartbreaking stories of regret. As a feminist, I certainly couldn’t stand by an option that might scar a woman for the rest of their life. And, no point saying that some women aren’t affected- no one knows which particular women will be traumatised so why take the risk with a woman’s life?

Maria, I recently fell out with a friend of mine, I’ll never see her again, I regret the decisions I took to reach that point. Now, by your argument no one should ever engage in friendships due to some people having bad experiences from them. Ridiculous. People regret decisions all the time, statistics recently showed that 87% of Irish women who underwent an abortion DID NOT REGRET IT.

I did not diminish the life of the unborn once. Neither did I call it a “clump of cells”. I also did not diminish the emotions of the woman at the centre of this argument.

In order to look at this argument. We need to look at it clinically. We need to take everything into account, and see what exactly is best for the woman AND the unborn.

Scenario 1: Abortion Illegal. (Currently the case).
The woman travels abroad for the procedure, sometimes to reputable outlets, sometimes not. The woman might also elect to have the procedure carried out “underground” here in Ireland. This method is unsafe for the mother, because as is fact, she does not get follow up in the time following the procedure being carried out.
The woman does not get an abortion in order to get a referral to the mental health services, please, for goodness sake, be rational. The fact that the woman does not have the procedure carried out by the HSE or through the HSE, means that her care, before, during, and after the procedure is disjointed, meaning, as always, that women fall through the cracks, and don’t get the full and proper care they require, should they decide that abortion is for them.

Case 2: Abortion Legal. (Hypothetical argument).
The woman decides, for whatever reason, that abortion is for her. She is referred to the correct abortion service, she goes through the pre-care, procedure, and post-care system. If she requires follow up (physical or psychological mostly, because, as has been mentioned, abortion is not something carried out lightly), the follow up is there. The service is state provided, therefore those that are providing the service are registered, and deemed fit to carry out whichever aspect of care is provided.

Just because you don’t agree with it, does that mean that if the life of the woman is put at risk by carrying out the full term of the pregnancy, or if the life of the unborn is going to be compromised to such an extent as to allow this existence would be cruel, does that mean you don’t allow them, or put another way, you deny them their right to full, proper care.

You are not being asked to have an abortion yourself. If you don’t want one, then might I suggest you don’t have one. That is your choice.

But for people who need that choice, you are being asked to look coldly, clinically, without fear, without emotion, without disregard for another’s life or another’s unborn life, and without all of the cultural build up that this subject has acquired through the generations, and say, am I going to allow another to gain whatever medical care is required.

Please leave the emotion, the scare-mongering, the tactics at home. Alone in an abortion clinic abroad, with all the open windows in the world, is a dark place to be.

A woman could regret having her child or placing it for adoption. Why risk it? We have no idea which ones it might be (because your arguement makes just as much sense that way.)

She’s a clinical psychologist

Not a nedical doctor at all.

This should always be made clear in matters which have a medical aspect such as abortion. If you’re referring to her as a doctor, it’s slightly misleading not to also point out that she is actually a psychologist. Psychology isn’t considered part of medicine (whereas psychiatry is). Dr Ruth Cullen, or to give her her full medical title, Ruth Cullen, is always referred to thus when she acts as spokesperson for the Pro Life campaign. It’s almost as though she insists upon it in order to add weight to her arguments. Not the first person to use this trick of course, Rev Dr Ian Paisley has his doctorate in divinity, an honorary one awarded to him by the fundamentalist christian Bob Jones university.

Oh, is psychology not part of medicine, Mark? And yet, only a psychologist gave evidence in the X case. Are we supposed to accept that evidence as reason enough to stand by a poor Supreme Court judgement?

Nope. We’re supposed to take the two referenda where the Irish people supported the X case as reason enough.

I can clearly remember what happened in those two votes and quite a substantial amount of pro-life people voted No. Have you an analysis of why people voted as they did? You can’t jump to conclusions if you don’t have a breakdown of the vote.

Really? Now we have to analyse why people voted the way they did and decide if it’s valid? I think people voted for FG for dumb reasons, can I overturn that one?

Democracy means that sometimes you lose. Because I’m sure if the vote had gone the other way, you’d be questioning motivation, right?

The 1984 legislation is estimated to have already saved 50,000 Irish lives.

Yes, data from 28 years ago is come rely reliable. I’m sure our constitution from the 1930’s is also up to date.
By the way, who came up with these figures?

Can you produce evidence for this please? Also, how many lives has it ended due to health complications, depression, suicide etc.?

Yeah, I’d say there is – because we are not ‘without abortion’. Irish women in their thousands have abortions every year, have been doing so for decades, and it hasn’t made it any more dangerous to have a baby here.

What a ridiculous statement. Ireland isnt without abortion because we just export the problem..

Jimbo can you come up some evidence for what you say?

Jimbo – those figures are from the World Health Organisation.

John, Jimbos asked a valid question, not stated anything!!!!

The WHO has figures to say that ‘The 1984 legislation is estimated to have already saved 50,000 Irish lives’? Really?

Or are you referring to the status of Ireland as a very safe place to give birth? Which of course it is, but that is completely irrelevant to this debate because abortion is available to Irish women.

I was asking for evidence John, not presenting “facts”. Evidence is not needed to pose a question, in fact questions usually arise from a lack of evidence or knowledge.

Can you provide a link please Tracy?

The Wiki infant mortality rate page shows that while we do well we are not in the top ten…. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_infant_mortality_rate

Funny that. Afghanistan and Niger are recorded as the two worst places to have a baby/be a mother and they have the same restrictions on abortion as we do.

Well said Rob

Also, my understanding is that they’re out of date. They’re from 5-10 years ago.

Yup, they’re from 2005. Here’s stats from 2008, which put us, ooh, slightly behind some countries with legal abortion:
http://www.who.int/pmnch/topics/maternal/20100402_ihmearticle.pdf

Have you statistics on that, Sharrow? What complicated medical conditions can’t be dealt with in our own maternity hospitals? Our obstetricians are highly capable of dealing professionally with all sorts of very difficult pregnancies and bringing mother and baby to delivery, Women are not denied treatments in pregnancy and it would be scaremongering to suggest otherwise.

I’m sure they all could be, they’re just not, as shown in ABC.

That’s what we tackle so, Nick.

Yes, you want to deny a cancer survivor or a suicidal woman a pro life saving abortion. Either you think women should receive medical treatment or you want to protect the “life of the unborn”, but it’s ingenious to proclaim you’re doing both.

There was a demand for slavery, but that didn’t make it right. It’s funny how so many people who claim to be pro choice, rarely mention other options like keeping the baby or adoption or even some sort of temporary fostering arrangement until a mother gets back on her feet. Surely choice also involves a choice of saying that we don’t want abortion at all and that there’s a better, more humane way?

With such a great record, it’s pretty obvious that the ante natal care here in Ireland is beyond reproach. Hopefully, cutback won’t have a negative effect on our figures. It’s interesting to note the maternal mortality rates of the six nations who are urging Ireland to follow their example of legalised abortion: Denmark ranked #5, Spain #6, Norway #7, Netherlands #9, UK #12 (MMR nearly triple that of Ireland), and Slovenia #18 (MMR nearly 4 times that of Ireland). The United States ranked #24 with a MMR 8 times higher than Ireland! If I was pregnant, I think I know which country’s obstetric care I’d like to be under.

Or why not go to Afghanistan? Or Guinea-Bissau? Or Niger? All of whom have the same restrictions on abortion as we do and all of whom have appalling maternal mortality rates. On what grounds are you assuming that “no legal abortion” is responsible for our admirably low maternal mortality rate, and not say “having a relatively well-funded health service and healthy population, in global terms”? Quite apart from the fact that those stats do not include indirect causes of maternal death eg suicide.

I’d be perfectly happy to have obstetric care in any of the Scandinavian countries, or the Netherlands, or the UK, the difference in their MMR to ours is actually pretty small compared to some of the countries with MMRs in the hundreds or thousands. Or indeed in the US if I was rich – one of the reasons the US rate is so relatively high is because of their lack of general healthcare provision for the poor, not because they have legalized abortion. Which is virtually inaccessible to the poor in many states anyway. Strangely enough, I’d be a lot less happy to have my prenatal care in Guinea-Bissau.

Also, as I’m sure has been pointed out already – Irish women who want/need to terminate their pregnancies DO terminate their pregnancies, if they have enough money. They go to the UK or more rarely the Netherlands. So those stats actually don’t say a thing about whether “women are safe without abortion”, because women who want to terminate a pregnancy for medical reasons go elsewhere to do it, if they can afford it.

And I *really* wouldn’t want to be getting my obstetric care in the Dominican Republic. Well, not if I developed anything life-threatening:
http://jezebel.com/5928672/teen-cancer-patient-cant-get-chemo-because-shes-nine-weeks-pregnant-++-but-she-cant-get-an-abortion-either

A great record Maria? Really? Symphysiotomy? The C case, the x case, the d case? Numerous lawsuits regarding children being deprived of oxygen at birth resulting in severe brain damage, cerebral palsy etc? 1 in 8 pregnant women experiencing domestic violence? Yeah, we’re doing spectacularly and it’s all down to the abortion ban.

We don’t leave it to individual choice when it comes to any area involving child protection, so why should we when it comes to the rights of the unborn child?

Because it also involves the rights of a woman and only she should be able to choose to sacrifice her rights. She shouldn’t be stripped of them by the state the second mitosis starts.

Irish people have twice voted to allow abortion on maternal health grounds, so I have no idea where you’re getting your facts.

Precisely which referendum are you referring to? Because by my research not once have the Irish electorate been given the opportunity to legalise abortion in Ireland in any form.

We’ve been given the option to restrict it further all right, and oh look, we said no.