“During the Celtic Tiger years we saw a glimpse of what can happen when people lose the spiritual dimension, when their focus becomes material wealth and success. ”

Yes, like the religious orders selling off land in which the bones of unnamed women were buried for money.

The gaudy wealth-laden Vatican is the most unspiritual place I’ve ever been in my life. One has no need of Catholicism to be spiritual.

P.

The catholic church is NOT under attack from ‘all sides’. instead –like a rancid onion the layers have been peeled back to reveal the rotten centre contained within.

“During the Celtic Tiger years we saw a glimpse of what can happen when people lose the spiritual dimension, when their focus becomes material wealth and success.”

Reminds me of the Vatican. And they’ve had millennia of material wealth and success, not just a few years.

There is now and always will be a disconnect between the Catholic church and the Irish people. I don’t think religious leaders are aware of just how big this chasm is.

There is no questioning the not only the evil of crimes committed by elements of the Catholic church, but what I find even more shocking, is the Catholic church is the actual antithesis of Jesus’ message. He believed in taking the message of Christianity to the masses, not creating a theocracy of unattached deluded leaders. As an atheist I genuinely believe the Christian message can benefit humanity and many many priests adhere to its principles. But I cant see the institution of the Catholic church every representing that message

To answer your final question: Yes, of course we can. Love and compassion are not solely Christian, not solely of the Abrahamic religions, not solely religious at all! Almost all humans are capable of empathy, and it’s from our ability to imagine ourselves in another person’s situation our compassion comes. Please don’t insult humanity by saying we need a god, a religion or a church to treat each other decently.

“In these, and so many other ways, a society without religious belief would be a poor legacy to leave to our children.”

A poor legacy to leave our children would be an educational and religious system riddled with abuse and paedophilia. And believe it or not, religious beliefs can exist outside the confines of the despicable backwards organisation that is the Catholic Church.
Your loss in church-goers – well overdue in my opinion.

This is just the type of pathetic, self-promoting, straw-clutching one would expect from an organisation on its knees. The last floundering breaths of an outmoded autocracy pleading it relevance.

How dare you speak of a legacy to the children of Ireland and how dare you assume your christ’s monopoly on love? The catholic church’s “legacy” to the children of this country will take generations to heal and was borne out of something sinister, a far, far cry from love.

You make me sick.

Anyone who calls the revelation of truth an attack is trying to defend a lie.

Another lie is that there can be no spiritual dimension to Irish life without the Catholic church. Can Irish people not follow other religions? Religions that perhaps have a better record on the treatment of children and the vulnerable. Even other Christian denominations if they so wish. The Catholic church has no monopoly on spirituality, despite what it may insist.

Hypocritical writing in the extreme. Why should the Irish people keep a church alive that acts like a state within a state when the rest of us have to keep to the law? Why should we allow it the power to suck us dry of any money we may still have while it tries to avoid paying compensation to those it’s priests abused.? We can still believe in God if we wish but if Jesus returned today he would be in the temples over turning the money changers tables again…Power corrupts … absolute power corrupts absolutely… never again.

Fr Flannerys final paragraph is bigoted and deeply offensive, how dare he say only christians know the meaning of love. The most christian parts of the world are Africa and South America, also the most dangerous, poorest and unstable. You can keep your christianity, I’ll stick with reason, enlightenment and progress.

It is a false dichotomy that without the church you are left with only materialistic greed. How many of the greedy developers were involved with the church. I remember seeing a plaque on a church in the vatican listing a few irish developers. Let us not forget that Bertie is a papal knight.

The church did educate people. I’m sure some of those educators were decent people. But the church itself provides education as a means of societal control & to have a captive audience to spread its dogma. Not out of the goodness of its hearts.

Ireland does not need the church. On the contrary, ireland will prosper without the church.

“The present Government is looking for more money from orders like the Mercy sisters, who ran orphanages. But for generations the Mercy nuns educated the poor people of Ireland in their many schools, who otherwise would never have had a chance of education, and who made a great success of their lives as a result. The sisters taught without any financial remuneration for many years, and even when the State began to pay salaries much of that money was ploughed back into the schools”.

So, correct me if I misunderstand, Fr. Tony, but am I to take it that you feel a payment of a shade over a hundred million, compared with a thousand three hundred million from the State, is justified, because the Church had a dominant position in education since the foundation of the state?

In other words, it’s payback time?

Let me be clear, the Catholic church, and its role in the education of generations of Irish youth had as much if not more to do with copperfastening its own dominance in Ireland, by influencing her youth, than it did with some lofty ideal.

If that is not the case, then why does not the church continue now to offer the support it did heretofore, while allowing children to be educated in a secular manner, thus allowing them to make up their own minds about their faith, when they come of age?

And why, as quoted by An Taoiseach in his speech today, does the head of your own faith feel that decent morals and state law are incompatible with the Canon Law of the catholic church, and, by his actions in the case of the diocese of Cloyne, also feel free to summarily ignore them?

Fianna Fail thought the country needed them too, and look at them, now!

‘abused its power in more ways than JUST child sexual abuse,’…damned by your own words.

if the church is so worthy, sell every asset.
Just preach and see how you do.
Seriously. If your message so is valuable, sell it, not nonsense.

The church are the ones that need us! If we need spiritual fulfilment there are plenty of other ways to find it.

*We* do not need the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church, however, needs *us.* The Catholic Church will be far worse off without us than we are without it. It needs the numbers of faithful but it is not the sole driver for moral behaviour and spirituality.

You may need the Catholic Church but you cannot assume that your need equals mine or everybody else’s

The Catholic Church is entitled to an intelligent defense. This is not it. It is a rambling, poorly thought out article which confuses spirituality, religion and the chatholic religion.
Who are these people who seek the total destruction of the church and what relevance do they have to the legitimate outrage expressed by those who object to the church’s institutionalized neglect.
“The Christian message softens that side”. What message? Because the only message been sent out right now is that it is okay to abuse young children in it’s care, cover up that abuse and then force the Irish taxpayer to foot most of the bill for financial compensation.

A lovely well meant article, but i could not disagree with it more. For too long the state and the nation abdicated its moral responsibilities to it’s own people over to Religious institutions. And with that abdication came betrayal, lives destroyed and despicable cover up. We have no need of the Church, we need to take care of our own people ourselves.

Carl Sagan believed that there is far more spirituality and wonder from appreciating the astonishing beauty and elegance in the natural sciences than can be found in superstition and religion. we’re in the 21st century. time to leave bronze age mythology where it belongs

Really don’t think Catholics educating children is something we should be commending them for. Teaching children religious beliefs stunts their curious/investigative nature and essentially teaches them to be happy not understanding the world and how it works. Faith is not a virtue, and I don’t understand why the Catholics preach it as one. They place revelation over investigation.

In other words, they taught them an awful lot of outright lies that are central to Catholic doctrine (homosexuality is a choice and is analogous to paedophilia, all love and compassion comes from a god only, god created the universe, evolution is a brutal “survival of the fittest” etc) as well as a generally hostile stance towards science. Not something we should be applauding them for.

Lol

We don’t need any church. I would rather think for myself rather than “Oh now you can’t be doing that now it’s a sin” People need to free themselves from this cult once and for all.

This has to be one of the most delusional articles I’ve ever read. Lol….

Need the church? Hardly.

The Catholic church’s debauchery has proven what we knew deep in our hearts; that people do not need a vehicle to talk to or listen to G-d. An organization so corrupt to the core is beyond redemption in this world. Hell awaits in the next.

Column: No matter what, we still need News Corporation. Fr. Rupert Murdoch.

Read headline. Laugh. Move to next story.

Ronnie drew used to say that he thought people used the word hate too easily. I used to wonder what he meant exactly. He would give examples of people stating that they hated certain music, or, films etc. His point, as I understood him, was that we should be more discerning with the use of the word hate, and reserve it’s use for those who truly deserve it.

I think I now understand what he meant. I think, he would approve of the use of the word when applied to the hierarchy of the catholic church and the ” Vatican State ” regarding their attitude towards the rape and psychological torture of generations of children and, in effect, their families also..
I am not a person who is easily inclined towards hatred, but in this case I easily, and without hesitation, declare my utter and absolute hatred of any organisation (Catholic Church included ) that would put their( undeserved ) status/ego/reputation before the safety (Writ large) of innocent and ( like us naively ) vulnerable children. What else can I say? To the victims of these people and their families, all I can say is that I wish you all the luck in the world.
Ilie

We need the church? Don’t think you’re talking on my behalf here. As far as I’m concerned they can go and feck off

Eh no we don’t need the church. It Is a brain washing child raping money hungry cult!!!

I wonder are thejournal.ie gonna publish a column from someone who doesn’t need the catholic church as FATHER Farrelly does?

i wish they’d stop banging out the angelus on state airwaves. it’s bad enough paying for turbridy, miriam o’callaghan, aine lawlor, pat the squatter kenny et al without having to have religious claptrap forced upon on ears too. the catholic church needs to leave and close the door behind it.

Self serving drivel that completely whitewashes over the churches role in protecting and sheltering those priests and members of religious orders who abused children, frustrating investigations that were carried out into the abuse of children by the religious orders and failing to accept it’s responsibility in helping paedophiles continue to carry out their attacks on children. We need the church like we need a hole in the head.

Let me see…. Frustrated men and women , forced to join the priesthood and nunnery because Irish mammys and daddy’s thought it was a way to be, let’s say, excepted as a decent god fearing family… Now these men and women would rather be dancing, drinking , smoking, copulating but cannot because they have take a vow of celibacy… Well 4 or 5 years down the line these people are like a steam engine with no valve and are at bursting point, so how do they take out there sexual frustrations?? They take them out on the innocent, children who were mentally and physically tortured and told to shut there mouths or hell was there demise… Now the crux of all this, intelligent men and women knew this abuse was happening, this is the real problem. The church should have known there was a problem with there priests and nuns but no, they moved the problem world and country wide, the catholic church is as good as finished in Ireland, the sooner they take there dogma out of primary education and disband the better. tHe Vatican in my opinion is the centre of all evil in the world and for those who believe in a human representation of that evil, he is the head of the hedonistic catholic church… Point of fact, the Vatican city is solely inhabited by servants of the catholic church and yet the sexual age of consent is 12….. Go figure and finally to all who contributed to this forum spouting your catholic tripe… Burn your bible as it’s a book of fiction .

“The immense majority of intellectually eminent men disbelieve in Christian religion, but they conceal the fact in public, because they are afraid of losing their incomes.”
Bertrand Russell

Jesus evolved from apes like the rest of us.

“The purpose of the Church is to keep the rumour of God alive.” I heard a rumour he was dead.

Extra ecclesia nulla salus! Study logic everyone. Be rational, not emotional and sentimental as most of you seem to be.

What on earth are The Journal doing publishing this nonsense ?
This isn’t news, it’s personal opinion.

Are you now going to publish the views of a satanist for the sake of balance ?

Need a church maybe, but not this one. For those who have managed to retain some sort of faith, it’s time to start looking at what others are out there.

Seems a lot of comments I saw yesterday have been deleted. Why?

“A glimpse of what can happen when people lose the spiritual dimension”…..Are you serious? The Catholic Church…the Vatican in particular has always been a front for the largest accumulation of material wealth, greed and power this planet has ever seen. Besides that inconvenient fact the Catholic Church has no monoploy on The Spiritual Dimension which doesn’t even require belief in the message of Christ or any other laughably imagined deity…spirituality is a human thing, not bestowed upon us by some devine figure. And it can coexist with mental independance…the only necessary is that you feel a part of something bigger: like Humanity perhaps.

Nobody will argue with the fact that the abuse scandal and coverup by SOME in the Church Hierarchy are entirely indefensible. However, even though people are (rightly) outraged, if the government officials were exercising true leadership, they would try to calm the public down, and deal with the wrongdoers. It seems like some “staunch Catholic” politicians are joining the mob in the “hang ‘em high” anti-clerical mindset, that seems reminiscent of the French Revolution, Mexican Cristero War, and Spanish Red Terror. The fact that the violation of the Seal of the Confessional is under serious consideration and discussion is shocking.

There is no excuse for any Irish government minister or elected official to misquote statements or blame the Pope or Vatican for un-named or un-cited texts or statements to shore up their agenda. Blame and condemn an erring bishop or cleric or name a damning document but do not use misquoted data to make your point. It serves no worthy purpose and does not advance an otherwise legitimate cause.

Unfortunately, once the dust settles, it appears that Poland will be the only Catholic nation left in Europe.

We need Priests to bring us Jesus in the Eucharist!!!

The Catholic Church needs to be made extinct, it has been nothing but a bane on human existance.

Disgusting Title didn’t even read the article.

Let’s look at the church as a family. A father and mother raise their kids, educate them , look after their needs medical etc, just as the church has done in Irish society, providing health and educational services for it’s flock. Now lets say the father is found to have been raping his children for years… Should he get credit for providing for their educational welfare. This is what this column is suggesting. Overlook the sodomy and think of the good deeds. Sorry Father, it doesn’t work like that. The church is like a disloyal partner in a relationship. Constantly lying to preserve the relationship but unable to stop reoffending. Divorce from the Vatican and a patriarchal church is solution for the Irish people.

The Church’s self-appointed, self-important and self-serving role is what is meant here –
‘Though it can be argued that it has done it inadequately, the purpose of the Church is to keep the rumour of God alive, to preserve the spiritual dimension of our existence, and to be the structure within which the message of Christ can be passed on from one generation to another.’

Sure, some people lost the run of themselves, but the notion that a corrupted, outmoded, irrelevant and incredibly self-important and self-regarding organisation can somehow bring us back to a moral and societal event keel is laughable. Some people may feel that the need some type of spiritual guidance in life, but the notion that if the Catholic Church goes, we loose that option is self-justification of the highest order.
‘ During the Celtic Tiger years we saw a glimpse of what can happen when people lose the spiritual dimension, when their focus becomes material wealth and success. Greed becomes predominant, and society develops a hard, inhuman face. The survival of the fittest, of the strong and wealthy, becomes the prevailing philosophy, and people turn in on themselves and greedily want more and more material things, far more than they could ever possibly need. Crime and violence increases, as people lose respect for each other and for human life.’

‘but history would seem to indicate that where the church as an institution collapses the faith does not survive for long.’
The reason for that is that people begin believing in the church as an institution rather than the philosophy that lead to it’s creation. When that happens, when the church through it’s actions sets itself up as more important for people than the ‘saviour’ or god that they are supposed to be praying to, that’s when faith and spirituality is lost. And that’s what the church all over the world has done.

‘The present Government is looking for more money from orders like the Mercy sisters, who ran orphanages. But for generations the Mercy nuns educated the poor people of Ireland in their many schools, who otherwise would never have had a chance of education, and who made a great success of their lives as a result. The sisters taught without any financial remuneration for many years, and even when the State began to pay salaries much of that money was ploughed back into the schools. Many people, even some who got their education from the nuns, have forgotten all that.’
Of course the govt is looking for more money! Horrendous crimes were committed by these organisations, restitution must be paid. This paragraph basically says, you’re not giving us any credit for all the children we didn’t rape, for all the lives we didn’t destroy, for all the elements of society that we didn’t corrupt and try and control. Sickening inability to again face up to actions of all sections of the catholic church in Ireland and around the world.

‘Whatever its other failings, the Church does the rituals around death very well, making no distinction between those who attend church regularly and those who only come at those difficult times. The cold, impersonal, non-religious service in a crematorium would be a poor substitute for the Catholic funeral.’
The Church does death very well is a nice slogan for a moribund organisation. And it’s nonsense to say that other services are cold and impersonal. How many removals and funerals are there around the country when the priest talks about the deceased based on a half chat with the family before the service? And what about the non-religious ceremonies that allow people to celebrate the life that is gone rather than insisting on certain songs only, certain eulogies only, denying emotional expression to people?

‘The priests are available to hear confession, and assure people who have failed that God still loves them. In that way they keep alive an essential part of the Christian message, that there is hope for everyone, and that the harsh judgments and condemnations so much a feature of modern media do not reflect the nature of a loving God.’
The harsh judgements and condemnations of modern society? How about the judgement that you have so offended your God that, not only will you be denied eternal salvation for your transgressions (like eating meat on a Friday not too long ago), you’ll be condemned to eternity to burn in hellfire and torment. That seems like a harsh judgement to me. The wrath of God, the rage of God, Judgement Day, Divine Retribution, God Fearing, the catholic church has been based on 2000 years of terrifying people to make them believe.

‘In these, and so many other ways, a society without religious belief would be a poor legacy to leave to our children. If the message of Christ is forgotten can we depend on humanity to know the meaning of love? I don’t think so.’
Ask the adults today who suffered as children under the church whether they would have preferred a society without the catholic church. And my god, to say that without the catholic church, we wouldn’t know the meaning of love! Really? I guess the Jews don’t know love, or the Buddhists, or the Muslims, or the Mormons (maybe they know too much love!), or the atheists? Self-serving nonsense designed to to try subvert a core human emotion to the needs of a dying organisations and make people fear that without the salvation of the catholic church, we’re all doomed.

This is a shocking article that sadly highlights many of the problems that exist within the church and show that, as an organisation, it may be beyond rescue.

So if so many of us want to diminish the power of the catholic church in this country,
is there any way we can (have a referendum to) remove the teaching of catholicism from our schools, especially our primary schools?
Most of them are probably still considered to be “run” by the catholic church, though.

This article only shows that the catholic church has learnt absolutely nothing. The more I read it the more angry I get. They will never change and Flannery’s rambling rubbish just confirms to me how out of touch with reality these people are. So, only christians understand love eh? is this guy for real? How arrogant is that.

The good bits – Jesus. The gospel message, what it should be all about. Old language of gospels ‘Regard the lilies…’ Church music – Salve Regina. Adoro te etc what we learned before 1967. Art and architecture. The faith of our mothers. Dominican/Loreto/FCJ/St Louis nuns. They cared and educated. Nuns is too general a phrase. Like dogs there are different types. Rotweilers and Cavalier King Charles.
The bad bits – what we have been finding out in recent years. Curates and PPs who weren’t that bright really. The Sisters of Mercy. Rotweilers.We paid them fees pre -1967 We were well behaved. They walloped the hands off us. Did they think they were helping us? Our mothers saved up to give us a blast of nicer orders.
Still hanging in there because it’s not about ‘the church’. It’s about Jesus Christ.

The writer tells us that the country and the world needs a death cult which practices ritual cannibalism (communion) on a daily basis and whose members have tortured, murdered and raped innocent and guilty alike down through the ages ?

My heart bleeds when I read about what the church has done and it bleeds again when anger turns to hate as in the comments above. I accept that many have lost faith, but regardless of what religion (if any) people have, many of us have a sense of people getting what they deserve (in this life or the next), but it appears to me (as a non catholic christian), there is a lynch mob mentality in this country at the moment. Yes, damn those who are guilty, but not all are. If a drunk driver knocks a child over, should all drivers be damned? If a man commits a crime, should his mother and father be damned for raising him that way. Terrible, hideous things happened, but I think it is time to step back before hate consumes us all

I wouldn’t put too much emphasis on the Association of Catholic Priests, who are a dissident bunch who oppose some of the teachings of the Catholic Church. IE advocating women priests and recognition of same sex relationships.

I am stunned that such rose tinted views of the piety of the church are held by educated people. The evidence is clear that the church is a self serving institution. The systematic rape and torture of children was endemic. The social repression of women, gays and artistic expression kept this nation on it’s knees. The Celtic tiger years and a modern Market economy allowed the church to get in up to it’s neck in property deals along with the rest of us. The church is a morally bankrupt irrelevance and I for one wish it only continued decline. The freedom of atheism is wonderful and I hope my fellow citizens will one day experience it with me.

Everyone all of a sudden is shouting out with the church from the rooftops. Where were these cries of condemnation 2 days ago? A wiser man than me once said evil prevails when good men fail to act. The recent surge in church bashing rings of impodent mobs sparking off when one person finally has the balls to come out and speak up against something.

Thanks Tony. Very amusing.

A must read for the TRUTH not OPINION

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2011/0727/1224301446703.html

It’s very hard to disagree with this column. He isn’t looking for forgiveness for the failings of the church. He’s simply reminding people the great work the church has done, for Ireland and the world. Im in no way a religious or even spiritual person but would still stand for the values of the catholic church. They’ve done a great deal for everyone in society and I’d say the corrupt and sickos make up a small minority of the clergy out there. Still though I understand the pain and anger of everyone (myself included) and justice has to done.

Wow! I was asked to write an article, and given a particular slant to write on. I had no idea what this website was, had never heard of it. I am not saying my article is the greatest, but reading through the comments is amazing. I don’t want to convince anyone; I believe what I believe, and I try to respect others who have different beliefs and attitudes. Many of the comments here are so utterly dismissive that they seem to come from minds that are closed. No discussion possible there.
Tony Flannery

Oh will you people forgive and forget already. I am not catholic, but u come from another religion that covered up it’s abuses. But if you keep these dark feelings around you it will only bring more suffering to the people of this country. Negative thoughts breed negative action. Red thumb me all you like, but is time to realise there are a lot of good priests, clergy from other religions, etc. And of course the author is going to favour christianity. Does the catholic church not believe it is the only way to God? Thanks father for an insightful article.

Jeez, this is like an Orange Order supporters club ..a lot of haters out there. As Roy Keane might say, get over it and move on….

We do not need the church – the church needs us. The very word ‘church’ actually means the congregation of christian believers. For this we do not need the priest or the building and to say that we would not survive without them is demeaning and patronising. This article is twaddle

” if the message of christ is forgotten can we depend on humanity to know the meaning of love?” What sort of insulting drivel is this? We wouldn’t have survived up to 2000 years ago without a moral code, and the message of christ wasn’t at our species disposal up to then, The implication that humanity can only be moral and just if it slavishly adheres to catholic dogma is rubbish, Otherwise I would be afraid to step outside my door for fear of the murdering, cheating thieves that are kept civil only by the religion they follow, An insult to everyone.

No matter what, the human civilization still need the church, the church should be helped and assisted in over coming the short comings of the last three decades.
” to air is human to forget is divine”. It is time for us all to forgive the church for the crime committed.

We need a church, but not the Catholic Church. A new church, an alternative church, anything but the Catholic church. It has betrayed the Irish people and abused it’s children, it must be jettisoned.

We are no saint…let those who have not committed any wrong doing stand.

cop yourselves on ! jesus and all religeons are fairytales based astrological musings of the ancients which gave rise to the money making machines like the catholic church , i bet god is laughing his ass off at our pathetic attempts to commune with him . how much more battering do we have to take from these false institutions before we get rid of them forever . . i love MY god

I beg to differ with Father Flannery’s claim that priests do a 24 hour job attending the sick. and dying. MY family recently tried to get a priest to visit our dying aunt in St. Colmcilles hospital at about tea time. Imagine our surprise to find an answering machine informing us that we should leave a message and the priest would get back to us at 9 o’clock next morning. As we knew she would not last that long, we drove around llooking for an available priest, to no avail, it seems they all work 9 to 5 now. We ended up getting a lovely lady vicar to say some prayers with us.

Some years back I visited a money making factory – sorry – I meant the Vatican !! Pior to that when I shed my catholic induced guilt I embraced a better quality of life entaining new found fulfilment and happiness.