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Dublin: 10 °C Saturday 18 May, 2013

Column: Religion should be taken out of schools. Leave it at home.

Most schools in Ireland are far from inclusive to non-Catholics, writes Jane Donnelly – and this needs to change.

Jane Donnelly

Last month, a 16-year-old student at Borrisokane Community College in Tipperary made an official complaint to the Irish Human Rights Commission. According to the Sunday Times, atheist Nathan Young alleges that his human rights were breached by compulsory prayer services.

Here, Jane Donnelly of Atheist Ireland argues that religion should be taken out of schools.

THERE ARE TWO good reasons why State schools should be run on a secular basis. But first, it is important to explain that a secular school is not the same thing as an atheist school.

A religious school teaches that a god exists, an atheist school would teach that no gods exist, and a secular school is neutral on the question of religion: it does not teach that gods either do or do not exist.

Instead, a secular school teaches children in a neutral, objective way about the different beliefs that different people have about gods, and leaves it up to parents and churches to teach specific religious beliefs outside of school hours.

Now here are the two reasons why State schools should be run on a secular basis. Firstly, it is good for society for children to be educated together. Secondly, in practical terms, secular schools are the only way to ensure that everybody has their human rights respected with regard to education.

Unfortunately, in Ireland we have no secular schools, and the Catholic Church runs more than 90 per cent of our primary schools.

In 2008 the United Nations Human Rights Committee raised concern about the human rights of secular parents and their children in the Irish education system.  The UN recommended that the State should open up non-denominational schools throughout the country.

Myth

This was not the first time that this issue has been raised by international human rights bodies. The UN and Council of Europe have now raised the issue of the rights of minorities in the Irish education system five times with the Irish State.

All schools at second level in Ireland are obliged to provide religious worship and instruction in the school and must employ teachers of religion approved by the relevant religious authority.

Borrisokane Community College is no exception, and it is clear from their school plan that it is Christian religious instruction and worship that takes place in the school. It is a myth that schools under the patronage of the VEC are secular non-denominational schools. There are no secular non-denominational schools at either primary or second level in Ireland.

The terms non-denominational, multi-denominational and interdenominational are not legally defined in Ireland. The result of this is that some schools call themselves multi-denominational even when they operate a specific religious ethos.

Church and State

The Department of Education is the patron of several schools in Ireland. The state has informed the UN that five of these are Catholic schools and four are Protestant schools. This means that in Ireland the State manages religious schools. In Ireland there is no separation of Church and state in the education system.

Borrisokane Community College is a religious school. One religion teacher allegedly said that prayer services can be for “Christians or atheists or agnostics or whatever”.  It seems silly to point out that atheists don’t say prayers and consequently have the right to opt out of prayer services but it obviously it needs to be said.

To put this into context, the State funds religious instruction and prayers services in schools. It funds the training of religious instruction teachers and pays their salaries. It does not provide any alternative classes for minorities who have a right to opt out of religion. Nor does it provide supervision for minorities who opt out of prayer services.

This is religious discrimination and it clearly breaches the human rights of minorities. In addition to this it permits religion to be integrated into all subjects. It is impossible for minorities to opt out of a religious ethos.

The Minister for Education Ruairi Quinn claimed recently that VEC schools “whether designated to one religion or not, have long been recognised as some of the most inclusive schools in the state.”

Choice

Borrisokane Community College is what is referred to as an inclusive school in Ireland. These schools are held up as an example of how pluralist our education is. This is the choice for non-religious parents in Ireland. We can send our children to a religious school under Church patronage or we can send our children to a religious school under the patronage of the VEC.

Minister Quinn recently said that he did not want a secular education system but a pluralist system that provides parents with choice in relation to the education of their children. It is clear that he means choice between one private religious school or another private religious school, or if you are lucky a private multi-denominational school like Educate Together, and that there will be no choice for parents who seek a secular non-religious human rights based education for their children.

The Irish Constitution obliges the state to ensure that all children receive a basic moral education but the state only funds moral education based on religious values. It is a religious moral education or no moral education at all. Schools in Ireland can give preference to co-religionists in order to uphold a religious ethos.

The Equal Status Act provides exemptions for schools that operate a religious ethos. The European Convention on Human Rights Act only applies to ‘organs of the state’ and schools in Ireland are not considered ‘organs of the state’.  It is no wonder that the United Nations and Council of Europe are concerned about the human rights of minorities in the Irish education system.

Jane Donnelly is the Education Policy Officer for Atheist Ireland. You can find out more at their Facebook page or follow them on Twitter. Atheist Ireland also runs the Teach Don’t Preach campaign for secular education – find it on Facebook here.

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Comments (386 Comments)

  • Poppy 01/11/12 #

    Instead of spending so much time in school on a specific religion maybe the time would be better spent on teaching kids about morals….to respect each other, teaching about the devastating effects of bullying, cyber bullying & treating others as you’d like to be treated. Even if you don’t believe in any God these teachings are relevant to today’s world.

    Reply
    • That’s very true, Buddhism teaches a lot of what you say!

      Reply
    • Buddhism? Tell that to the Rohinga in Burma who are being burnt out of their houses by mobs led by the safron-clothed ones. All religions want to eliminate the opposition.

      Reply
    • Deni5 01/11/12 #

      Being a B. Ed. student in Mary I, we have the choice to do religion or not but considering that 95% of schools are catholic, it is basically an obligation.

      I thought this seemed unfair at the start of term but having had 2 lectures a week, we have had broad discussions on the existence of God and the lecturer keeps saying that he respects the views of students ‘of all religions and none’, which he does.

      It is clear that we are not expected to teach that God definitely does exist and that the children should believe the same. We are supposed to cultivate the spiritual minds of the children and encourage them to form their own opinions.

      The program in the schools (Alive-Oh) is much the same and has been with years, teaching the children about morals and rights in an SPHE sort of way.

      I know that this case is entirely wrong in that the boy should have been allowed to stay out of the service, I can also see that it is still a part of the school life and if children were learning in, for arguments sake, science that the world was created by the big bang, should a child be allowed to leave the class because he believes that God created the world in 6 days, rested on the 7th and made Adam & Eve to populate the world? I doubt it somehow…

      Reply
    • Educate Together schools are founded on these principles.

      Reply
  • Describing Educate Together schools as “private” gives the impression that they are fee paying which, of course, they are not.

    Reply
    • All primary schools in Ireland are private. They are run by private bodies, whether that be a Church or Educate Together.

      In most countries, the State provides at least some primary education. In Ireland, the State passes on this responsibility to private bodies, and funds the schools without actually running them.

      This means that the State can (try to) ignore its responsibilities under international human rights law to respect the freedom of conscience of parents who want a secular education for their children.

      Reply
    • I’m well aware of the current system of patronage, my point was that the use of the term gives the impression that they are fee paying as that is the term used by most people to mean that. I simply wanted to clarify it.

      Also there are a small number of VEC primary schools which are not run by private bodies however they do teach faith formation within the school day. I think it is a mistake to equate direct State provision of education services with removing faith formation from the classroom.

      Reply
    • All schools are classed as ‘private’ within the Irish State. I understand where you are coming from with that comment as it is misleading to refer to any school that is not fee paying as private. We do however pay a lot more towards the running of the schools than parents of children in Catholic schools because of lack of funding. The patronage is private, that’s what the term means when brought up in this context.

      Reply
  • @jerry slattery, you’d want to be extremely shallow minded to send you’re child to a Gael scoil just to avoid non nationals( they still go ) and children with special needs.

    Reply
  • There’s very few non denominational schools to choose from….

    Reply
    • Catholic orders gave time and commitment and finances to founding Catholic secondary schools. Let anyone who doesn’t like not having a choice give the same time commitment and finances to providing an alternative for themselves. The state isn’t going to.

      Reply
    • Blue Rose, groups of parents put a huge amount of voluntary time into trying to set up multi-denominational schools. They spend years of intensive work and raise funds but if they are not match funded by the state, if the state chooses another patron body (such as the Catholic church) to open a new school in an area where one is needed, then all their work is wasted… Every single multi-denominational (Educate Together) primary school in this country represents years of hard work and fundraising by dedicated groups of parents before the school could be set up. In Greystones recently Educate Together and local parents worked hard to try to get a new secondary school to be multi-denominational (ie would cater to ALL children and families) but the minister gave it to the Church of Ireland. This means while there are several multi-denominational primary schools around the country (including Greystones) there is still not one single secondary multi-denominational school for those children to progress onto. This is despite Educate Together having an excellent and enlightened blueprint for progressive secondary education within the state system in place for years. I had to send my son to a religious secondary school, so although his primary education was multi-denominational, his secondary education is sectarian and segregated. This is just so wrong.

      Reply
    • Catholic Orders never had their own money. They got money by brainwashing children into becoming Catholics who as adults were then told they had to give money to the Catholic Orders. It’s one of the greatest and most successful scams in all of history, but it’s coming to an end.

      Reply
    • yes in return for lots of land which they flogged off during the celtic tiger and made billions, and they had the use of children to use and abuse at will. That seems like a massive return on investment to me.

      Reply
    • Sadly though Blue Rose, that is not all they gave now was it?

      Reply
  • By choosing pluralism over secularism, Ruairi Quinn has become the greatest political friend to the Catholic Church since Michael Woods. He’s allowing elites based on the religion of parents to be safely segregated from the rest of society eg fee-paying schools (which many of the cabinet attended) and allow for discrimination on entry. If religion is taught in any school – funded in part by the State- it should be at the end of the school day so opting in or out is freely made.

    Reply
    • I tend to agree with you on the point of elitist and segregation in education , Just look at the whole Gael Scoil thing. This whole concept is flying with the primary goal of the parents to have there Children in Schools where there is the minimum of non nationals and special need students.
      Elitist education happens in every country in the world , Just look at the public school system in the UK and you will find that there will be no strong wish to change it here .
      I think to blame religious is organisations is a bit simplistic just look at the growth of private schools here in the last decade such as Griffith Bruce all designed to get the best for the student who has money

      Reply
    • A secular school is a school that has purged its classrooms of expressions of respect for historic role models like Jesus of Nazareth etc. Children need role models.

      Reply
    • To Tom, secular schools could educate on people such as Ghandi or the Dalai Llama too or others who did a lot for the world, why does it have to be Jesus? The problem highlighted by the Article is that there is no option for those who don’t believe in God! It is wrong to force religious practices on people who don’t believe.

      Reply
    • Jesus as a role model – a hippy drifter with no visible means of income who preached that everyone should revere him…….class!

      If your child came home with a boyfriend like Jesus – you’d freak out.

      Reply
    • @ Tom. A secular school would focus on what is important regarding a child’s education. It would leave out the whole walking on water and other magic fairy tales. This would be of huge benefit to our economy as a child’s education would be based on logic and reason rather than make believe.

      Reply
    • For me, the elephant in the room is that taking religion out of schools will lead to no religious education at all. Why? The reason is that the majority of parents and children will not want to go to the effort of attending classes on Sundays. To back up that assertion, I’d point you to the ever falling statistics on church attendance. If people won’t even go to mass, what hope have they of going to Sunday school? That would bring us to the point where Catholicism is left by the wayside. That’s something that Enda and other practicing Catholics in the government will be at pains to avoid.

      Reply
    • Kevin, why should practising Catholics care what the majority of people do regarding religious education or lack thereof. Why should it matter if “practising Catholics” in government don’t like that fewer people are active Catholics. They’re in government. Government should have nothing to do with religion, a politicians personal religious beliefs has no business in the way the country is run.

      Reply
    • Tom, you said “historic role models like Jesus of Nazareth”. Jesus is a myth. There isn’t a shred of historical evidence he ever existed. You were just brainwashed into thinking that.

      Reply
    • @William Grogan: you’re wayyyy off there William: there is historical evidence he exists, even atheists know that. The historical figure of Jesus, is fact. Whether or not he’s the Messiah is up to you.

      Reply
    • @James – whether or not he was the messiah is up to evidence. He either was or he wasn’t.

      Seeing that apart from complete loons not one of the other tens of billions of people that have inhabited this planet have ever walked on water or turned water into wine, then I think the burden of proof is on those who claim he is the messiah to prove it with evidence.

      Reply
    • OU812 01/11/12 #

      @James Oliver

      He’s not the messiah. He’s a very naughty boy!

      Reply
    • James, no doubt as you believe there is historical evidence Jesus existed, you can quickly give it to us?

      In that evidence, that you won’t find btw, is there evidence for anything he has claimed to have done that could be described as miraculous?

      Reply
    • @Paul- There’s a lot of companies today, turning water into beer,wine,whiskey,shots, stout etc. and vice versa. Catholics, through out history have caused much bloodshed , abuse and misery. So much for love, Jesus?

      Reply
    • Hi Idle Passerby,

      It doesn’t matter what you think the government should do. What matters is what the government are likely to do and past form shows that they’re likely to avoid upsetting Catholic voters and the RCC where possible.

      Reply
    • Everyone should learn about Jesus.
      ‘Jesus was way cool. He walked on the water and swam on the land. Jesus was way cool.’

      King Missile.

      Reply
  • Orly 01/11/12 #

    I started a petition in secondary school towards the end of sixth year requesting that students who wished to were able to sit out the two forty minute (non-exam related) Religion classes we had each week in order to study for the L.C. or just relax. I was singled out and “shamed” by my religion teacher in front of my classmates, even though I don’t know why it was shameful as almost every student agreed we should have the freedom to choose whether we did the obsolete classes at that late stage in Leaving Cert year.

    Anyway, unluckily for me, I went on to study teaching and had to attend a minimum two hours of religion lectures each week. Know thy enemy, I suppose; I’m opposed to denominational education and have all the explanations as to why, just due to exposure!

    Reply
    • Well done for starting the petition

      Reply
    • I was probably like you when I was in school. I asked a Christian Brother teacher once how did he know the Pope was infallible and he went bananas. :)

      I asked my lay Biology teacher why in Leaving Cert Hons Biology there was no Evolution on the curriculum and all he said was, “Sit down Grogan, you know why there’s no Evolution.”

      Reply
    • William “By their acts shall ye know them”!!!

      Reply
    • Must have been a really backward school, William as there’s no problem with Catholics learning about Evolution.

      Reply
    • I and another girl were made to participate in prayer before CSPE class. Teacher threatened us with detention if we didn’t pray with the class. In CSPE for goodness sake. Taught the responsibilities of a citizen while being denied the rights of one.

      Reply
    • I actually think it’s ridiculous forcing someone who’s not religious to pray against their will. I don’t really see the point. It reminds me of being forced to apologise as a child when I didn’t feel even slightly sorry for what I’d done.

      Reply
    • Maria, of course it was a backwards school, it was a Christian Brothers school. In the curriculum for Hons Biology until about 1980-85 Evolution was missing. There wasn’t a word on it in the standard text called “Life” if I remember correctly. Afterwards they inserted a chapter on Evolution with an apologetic forward pointing out it was “just a theory”.

      As for Catholics learning about Evolution; how can they? They don’t believe that’s how mankind got here, they think their god put us here.

      Reply
    • Damocles 01/11/12 #

      “As for Catholics learning about Evolution; how can they? They don’t believe that’s how mankind got here, they think their god put us here.”

      The Roman Catholic Church’s position is best described as Theistic Evolution, Evolution as a free standing theistic tool. If anyone is telling you differently and is doing so as a representative of that church I suggest you grass them up the Vatican.

      Reply
    • Dam, What’s Theistic Evolution? The only Evolution I’m aware of is Darwinian Evolution. What’s Theistic Evolution? Where’s the difference? You might explain.

      Reply
    • Damocles 01/11/12 #

      Do you have internet access at all?

      http://bit.ly/Ul0KK6

      Reply
    • Dam, I read all that page but no where can I see it explains the difference. Darwinian Evolution has no creator, no design, no plan. It occurs due to random and chaotic mutations which sometimes confer an advantage. Because an individual then has an advantage his genes survive and over time the sum of these successful mutations give rise to new species. It is the EXACT opposite to God’s plan. There is no plan. Our species would not exist on this planet if Evolution and the history of the planer was re-run. We are therefore not made in god’s image.

      Reply
    • Damocles 01/11/12 #

      A theory of theistic evolution (TE) — also called evolutionary creation — proposes that God’s method of creation was to cleverly design a universe in which everything would naturally evolve. Usually the “evolution” in “theistic evolution” means Total Evolution — astronomical evolution (to form galaxies, solar systems,…) and geological evolution (to form the earth’s geology) plus chemical evolution (to form the first life) and biological evolution (for the development of life) — but it can refer only to biological evolution.

      There is no plan
      The plan is ineffable.

      Our species would not exist on this planet if Evolution and the history of the planer was re-run.
      That assertation is unevidenced.

      Reply
    • Theistic Evolution is theism’s latest desperate grasp at staying relevant.

      Scientists work out something about how the world worked that contradicts theism’s stance on it? Grand job, just take science’s explanation, delete the old one or write it off as a metaphor and then say that God did . It’s the God of the Gaps.

      Reply
    • Dam, your last point first. Did god create the laws of Chaos?

      If this is the god of the gaps, there’s no gap. I’m looking for where TE is different from DE.

      Reply
    • Damocles 01/11/12 #

      God of Gaps is an ID thing. This isn’t ID.

      The difference is at the beginning and the end. TE suggests that God is at the beginning of the process and Man at the end.

      Your first point last, you know that Mathematical Chaos describes order within perceived chaos but at a level that is indiscernible to the casual observer from disorder? God created all via His mechanism, even Dawkins.

      Reply
    • Chaos is not what you described. The exact future of a chaotic system is unknown. What you are suggesting is ludicrous. So god started the big bang knowing it would lead to Jews in the middle east 13 billion years later where he could come down and die on the cross?

      Think for a minute about the trillions of quantum atomic events, such as the random decay of a single atom to produce radiation that changes the DNA of one gene creating a mutation that leads to a change in a species. Now tell me that was planned?

      This is far more insane than the god of the gaps, this is total denial.

      Reply
    • Damocles 02/11/12 #
      Reply
    • I’ve already read books on Chaos, including the first one.

      This claim reminds me of a comment a physicist once said when someone told him that the fossils were put there by god 10,000 years ago. He said, “if that’s true then why not believe that god put us all here 5 minutes ago complete with the holes in my socks.”

      Reply
  • OU812 01/11/12 #

    They should replace recognising in the curriculum with a European language which will actually serve them well & then have use of the school on a Sunday for religious education for those who want it.

    Reply
    • B Lowe 01/11/12 #

      Point well made. Here here.

      Reply
    • OU812 01/11/12 #

      * even my phone doesn’t “recognise” religion.

      :)

      Reply
    • I’m atheist but I wouldn’t agree with taking religion out of schools.
      What I’d like to see is religious/spiritual education actually happening rather than what is happening now – religious instruction.

      There is so much within popular culture, history, art, literature that people could lose out on by not being privy to what religion and spirituality is about. I think it’d be an awful shame to remove it completely.

      I mean, look at the really defunct beliefs like Norse and Greek gods. The idea that religion should be removed from schools suggests to me that teachers shouldn’t even be allowed to explain that Thursday is named after Thor.

      So, there’s a line somewhere. I think it would be great if children are encouraged to think – some overall questions like whether religion is needed for moral direction, what is a god/what are gods, are there negatives to religion, where we see religion in action…. But not direct instruction and completely non-denominational.

      Reply
    • OU812 01/11/12 #

      Also an atheist, an I agree with you, I’d rather they were educated about religion rather than instructed in Catholicism.

      I’m actually open to a lot of religious ideas. Buddhism is particularly interesting & for some reason, the one that rules me up the most is catholic.

      We have an agreement that I can teach the kids about every other religion at age 10, until that I have to keep quiet, but the eldest is starting to ask questions already aged 7, so I may have to start answering soon.

      Reply
    • This is what Educate Together do in religious education classes. Hard to argue with, really.

      Reply
  • Anything which excludes children in school life should be avoided. Making people pray or worship through coercion has NO place in a republic.
    Education in Religion, philosophy, Ethics could be the making of a rounded and challenging education. And would solve a lot of problems for the minister and parents and teachers.

    Reply
    • Religious Education in secondary schools IS a study of philosophy and world religions. The only “worship” that people are “coerced” into is a carol service, a graduation mass or possibly a short prayer at the start of the odd assembly. Having a catholic ethos is not about worship it’s about living with the core values of respect, justice and equality.

      Reply
    • Respect, justice and equality are not the exclusive property of the Catholic church.

      In fact, just putting respect, justice and equality and the Catholic church in the same sentence makes you wince

      Reply
    • Catholic ethos is very different to Catholic Church. The Catholic Church needs to allow priests to marry, allow women to become priests and be representative of its followers. It needs to change. A Catholic ethos is the foundation for our beliefs and is one way of teaching values to our children i dislike the male hierarchy that is the Catholic Church. I place huge value on schools with a Catholic Ethos. i never put “Catholic church” in any sentence.

      Reply
    • Blue Rose- you know little of how the term catholic ethos is used in Ireland if you think that it is disconnected from the Catholic Church. It is still legal for schools not not hire or indeed fire gay/lesbian teachers based on the school’s ethos. Just because you wish for ethos to be a general term does not mean it is so. If you look at the attack that the Exploring Masculinities TY module faced in 2000 you’d see the power of the church (with the help of John Waters and Kevin Myers if I remember correctly). This module would have promoted mental and physical health and in my opinion would have saved lives. Furthermore the outright refusal for many years of the majority of catholic boys schools to implement Social, Personal and Health Ed was tantamount to an educational mutiny against the wishes of the State.

      Religion must be taken out of schools.

      Reply
    • @colmoconnor I am very aware of how a catholic ethos works. Part of my education was in a catholic school part not. My children attend schools with a catholic ethos and I am an educator in a school with a Catholic ethos. Not all of my colleagues are catholic neither are they all straight. I am aware of and have taught the masculinities module even though I am female. I am an SPHE and RSE teacher but not a religion teacher and can see the benefits of teaching both within the setting of a Catholic and Christian ethos. It’s the values not the teachings of the church I am talking about.

      Reply
    • Blue Rose, as a parent who is not religious, and a parent of a child who I believe has the right to make up his own mind and not be taught only one belief system, it is utterly appalling to have no choice but a religious education for my son. It is ridiculous to suggest that a Catholic education is only about morals – that is simply not true. Imagine yourself with your child in a school with a Muslim ethos but insisting like the Catholic church that they cater for all equally, the education and ethos is all about morals and ethics. How would you feel? The fact is that one belief system of many (and often conflicting) belief systems is being taught as fact in most of our publicly funded schools and that is simply an outrage. My son, by his own choice not religious, has a strong moral compass, as do we his parents – in fact many of the people I know who have the strongest morality, ethics, compassion and values are not in the slightest religious. You seem so be implying that a Catholic ethos is only about respect, justice and equality – this is disingenuous – it is about so much more. If it was only about that, we would not need the extra religious stuff – my whole life is informed by respect, justice and equality without the need for a religious tag.

      Reply
    • Blue Rose. Fair enough- my assumptions were unfounded-apologies. (I have a similar context.) However:
      1. Are your gay colleagues ‘out’ amongst their peers or the student body. If so they are lucky and in an atypical situation.
      2. Is Exploring Masculinities still being run in your school? If not, why not?
      3. Do you accept that most boys schools refused to implement the SPHE course and RSE module for as long as possible and that their catholic ethos was used to justify this stance.
      4. Do you accept that combined, these have done real harm to many students physical and mental health?

      My comments were general in nature though there are always individual schools and teachers who act independently.

      Reply
  • reds 01/11/12 #

    It seems that there are more people than ever that would like religion to be taken out of schools and taught at home. With such a high percentage now changing their mind and not wanting the church to have such an influence in this country, I’m shocked as to how there have been no changes around it.

    I too believe that it should be removed from the curriculum and have no input in how Ireland is run. I will not be getting married in a church, baptising my children, having my funeral in a church and I will let me children choose their own beliefs. I hope that anyone else that genuinely wants it abolished does the same thing and doesn’t just follow the sheep just because “everyone gets married in a church” or “you have to baptise your children”, otherwise there will be no changes and the church will always rule this country.

    Reply
  • should have Been done years ago absolutely no need whatsoever! Something more use to be taught road safety etc

    Reply
  • The separation o f church and state is integral in combating discrimination. When the state supports religious teachings in school regardless of the beliefs of the students…. The state is forcing its views upon people who may not have a choice in educational systems.

    Based upon how religious education is conveyed in other countries … This is what I suggest:

    • Religious teachings should be the responsibility of the parent and the family’s church.
    • Religious teachings should be completed on the student’s own time (evenings & weekends)
    • If denominational schools are wanted by a majority of the public… Then:
    o All recognized denominations should have the ability to open a school under equal rules and regulations.
    o All recognized denominations should get equal funding from the taxes paid into the state from the tax payers of multiple religious beliefs.
    o Non-denominational schools should receive a higher percentage of funding from the state.

    A child’s growth, maturity and education are ultimately the responsibility of the parent(s). In addition, religious education along with integrity, honesty, manners and social consciousness is also the responsibility of the parent(s) to be delivered to the child… However, the church\religion is their aid support.

    Reply
    • Good point, I agree except that the state should only fund secular schools. I’m ok with private schools they just need to fund themselves. In short the state must be separate from any religious influence/leaning. Sunday schools are the answer.

      Reply
    • I like Marlon

      Reply
    • Marlon. You seem to completely leave out the rights of the child here. Why should any child be told that the religion of his parents is true? There is no such thing as Religious Education. The Catholic Church calls it “Faith Formation”. I call it brainwashing. It is a form of child abuse to take a very small child and tell him a load of superstitious nonsense is fact. Spend 14 years doing that to a child and you generally have him totally brainwashed. A child is entitled to his mind. He has a right not to have it damaged.

      Reply
    • LarBren1 01/11/12 #

      You talk about combatting discrimination but go on to say non-denominational schools should receive a higher percentage of funding from the state than denominational schools. Separation of Church and State does not mean that the state sees it’s role as an alternative or opponent to the Church in education or any other activity. There are no state schools, education ethos is entirely the preserve of parents, not everyone will like the choices of other parents but they have every right to government support(with their tax money).

      Reply
    • William,

      It appears that you feel very strongly about this subject. In any case, a child is the responsibilty of the parent. Any development that the parents pursue should always benefit both the family and society. If the parent choose to use tenents of religion to bolster a well rounded individual by maturity…. Then well done…. However, if the child reaches maturity as a well rounded individual that benefits the family and society, then well done again.

      I believe a parent should use whatever is at their disposal to prepare a child for maturity and to become a benefit to society.

      Furthermore, I child upon maturity can make a choice…. Whether it’s to continue with the learnings of their childhood or to sack it. The fact that the parent cares enough to prepare a child is the key here.

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    • Marlon’s sugestions are great, unfortunately i don’t see this happening any time soon.

      @William Grogan. Strange how you think of children as entities separated from the family unit and somehow have some special rights. This is referendum mumbo jumbo which tries to hide the society’s failings.We all have the same rights because we are all humans. So let’s say if the parents of a child believe in Yoda the Jedy Master so be it. It is whithin their rights to teach their child that and the state should not have any right to interfere. When the child will become an adult he/she can make their on mind about it.

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    • Marlon, I share your views 100%. The problem is that in Ireland the state and the church meddled so much in the family unit and this created a disconnect between parents and children. You can see that in all the debates: The state is at fault that youngsters drink too much, not the parents; the state is at fault because of children bullying not the parents. Everything here is state’s fault and not parents although you can see from the upbringing where the problem is……..

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    • Marlon, a child who is brainwashed cannot make a choice in most cases, that’s why all religions brainwash their children. That is why the vast majority of people are the religion of their parents even though that religion could have 1 god, 3 gods or 250,000 gods. You didn’t address my question, “Why should any child be told that the religion of his parents is true?”

      Lets suppose your child at say 2 years old was taken from you and brought to an Arab country where he was brainwashed into believing in the Muslim religion. Ignoring the kidnapping crime, would you approve of him then being and staying a Muslim even if he was returned or would you recognise the fact that he was a Muslim only because he was brainwashed? Would you try to convert him?

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    • Bigus, if it’s that simple to change your mind after being brainwashed, how come so few people do it?

      To put it another way, would you still support the “teaching” of religion to children if they could not change their minds lets say because they hadn’t a high enough IQ, or were not logical, were not intellectual, were not naturally sceptical etc?

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    • William, in principle I’d like to agree with you. The problem is that there are always going to be people who would rather have their kids not have an education, than send them to schools that doesn’t explicitly cater to their religion. There is a reason why the home schooling crowd in America is almost entirely on the fundamentalist religion end of the scale. Given a choice between, what I would agree is brainwashing and children missing out on an education, I think most people would agree that the choice is clear.

      Marlon hit the nail absolutely on the head when he pointed out the role in combating discrimination though. The reason that people are less sexist now than they were 100 years ago, is because people are now growing up along side women with equal rights, and recognize equality as normal. The reason young people are notably less homophobic than the generations before them is because gay people are no longer hiding in the closet and young people especially grow to recognize them as normal. Every form of discrimination that we have grown out of or are growing out of, began when we stopped exposing our kids to that discrimination. Ireland has been a country which has seen far too much sectarian violence, the best way to overcome it isn’t to segregate out the children from those in a different religion almost as soon as they begin talking.

      Right now there is a demand for sectarian schools and the state needs to ensure that the children who get sent to those schools get a decent education. But they shouldn’t be the majority and they certainly shouldn’t be the default, as they are right now.

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    • John, there is a simple answer to your obscure point, do not allow home schooling. To state that it’s better to brainwash 100% of the population in case a few missed out on education is bizarre logic.

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    • William, I agree, that is bizarre logic. I don’t know why you would point that out though as that’s nowhere near what I said. As for your simple solution to my “obscure” point, unfortunately it is quite a bit more complicated than that. Simply outlawing homeschooling would require a referendum, and would have an effect on the traveling community, communities in extremely remote areas (such as our island communities), people with severe disabilities, as well as expulsion procedures in schools for extremely disruptive children. On top of that there is the question of how far you are willing to go with non-compliant parents.

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    • You talk about brainwashing and yet a huge number of people seem to be brainwashed into thinking that it’s of great benefit to every child to be stuck at as desk, several hours a day, for 5 days a week for most of their childhood. There are problems with class sizes, bullying, children with special needs not getting the help they need and a one-size-fits all approach that caters for the needs of the average child, often ignoring the child who is falling behind or the very gifted child. You are force fed facts that someone else decides you should know and rewarded for regurgitating these facts in state exams which weeds out those who don’t flourish in this narrow system. Many homeschooling are rebelling against this system which allows little room for creativity and individuality. There is a huge rise in secular homeschooling in the US so it’s not just a choice based on religious preferences.
      http://mamaofletters.com/2012/02/15/secular-homeschooling-is-on-the-rise/

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  • While I agree broadly with the article, I think it’s important to note that, Educate Together primary schools meet the author’s definition of secular i.e. “Instead, a secular school teaches children in a neutral, objective way about the different beliefs that different people have about gods, and leaves it up to parents and churches to teach specific religious beliefs outside of school hours.”

    In an Educate Together school, this is exactly how children are taught *about* religions and belief systems etc, but they are *not* given any instruction within school hours – whatsoever. Parent groups can organise faith education outside of school hours, and the Boards of Management will facilitate this.

    The broad content within the Learn Together module can be found on the Educate Together website, and is taught in place of religious instruction. It has been been recognized as an example of best practice in inter-cultural education by the EU.

    It includes the following strands; Moral & Spiritual, Equality & Justice, Belief Systems and Ethics & the Environment. The general aim of the Belief Systems strand is to develop in children a critical knowledge, understanding and awareness of the teachings of religious and non-theistic belief systems and how these systems relate to our shared human experience. This does not include any instruction, only information.

    It is also hugely important to note that Educate Together schools are *not* private; there are no fees, they teach the same curriculum as other national schools. Any suggestion that ET schools are private is disingenuous, though probably not intentionally so.

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    • Well said Elaine.
      The one flaw in the above is that Educate together teachers are trained in Catholic dominated Teaching colleges. SO, they are not always as liberal as one would hope.

      My kids went to an ET school and their friends did their communion preperation after school. Because the school catered for all religions and viewpoints the children learnt to respect each others backgrounds.

      Unfortunately when we sent them to secondary school they were pretty much forced to attend church services etc. we changed secondary school three times owing to this

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  • Totally agree with this article. The irony here in England is that despite the strong belief that religion and education should remain separate, many parents are desperate to get their kids into Catholic schools as they’re seen to offer a better standard of education. Of course, this may have to do with the more selective criteria of the schools in question.

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    • That’s exactly it Ann-Marie – the shocking thing is that here in Ireland Catholic schools are allowed to discriminate, safe from prosecution.

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    • did you go back to Italy after Middlesboro got relegated

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    • When comparing the Irish system to normal countries with proper secular education systems, catholic, VEC, Gae Scoil and educate together schools should all be regarded in the same light as state schools.

      I say this because they are all 100% state funded and they are not elitist. Catholic schools are regarded as private schools in other countries and they ARE elitist schools. They score better than state schools in their own countries for the same reason Blackrock College scores higher than your average catholic school in Ireland. Not because of the influence of the religion, because of the elitism.

      Elitism means they can expell a student fro poor performance, apply extra resourcest o exceptional students and reject applications and only accept the best students if they so choose. It also means they have more resources than your average school because they have more money.

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  • I have a bigger issue with religious schools, than I do with religion.
    Actually, religion doesn’t offend me, I just choose not to partake in it. All was well until I sent my daughter to school. I politely told the teacher and the principal that we not RC. They shrugged it off as if to say, “no big deal”.

    First week of school. Our choices were either have her sit facing a corner, or have her take part. My choices are either to conform or to make a show of her, make her the “different kid”. So I am at a loss as to what to do. There are no secular options anywhere near our area, and if there were I would say the competition for places would be unreal.
    Meanwhile my (almost) 6 year old is coming home from school talking about Jesus. Singing little prayers, and asking about when she makes her holy communion!

    There are no education choices for non Christian parents in Ireland.

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  • I still can’t believe how much religious influence there is on young children’s lives. Through education in secondary school and college I have come to the conclusion that there is no God/gods and I wish it had not been forced so heavily on me as a child. I was afraid to voice concerns.

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  • This is always an interesting topic and it seems to get some very heated comments from both sides of the religious spectrum.I personally believe in Evolutionary Biology and i am an Atheist.But what some people seem to forget is that studies have shown that 80% of people will continue to practice the religion in which there parents have raised them in.This then becomes trans-generational and continues until someone breaks the cycle and questions that particular view.

    I would point out that if you have any child and raise them to believe in any system or religion they will of course show a bias towards that set of views. This means that the child has never actually been given a non-biased choice and that faith boils down to cultural and geographical chance.A good enallage is the child’s mind is the computer or hardware and the belief system is installed by the parent aka the software.

    These beliefs also get reinforced by attending the mass services. Take a moment to think about it logically and from a non-biased view. You go to Church and the Priest who for many years was put on a pedestal welcomes the people in. They you listen to many stories of this perfect person Jesus, who no one can possible live up to. You are then told that he died for “your” sins and that only through him can you be saved.

    In between this you are told to stand,sit,kneel and are asked to contribute to this organistion with money.
    You are then rewarded with some mystical bread and wine to make you more like the perfect Jesus.You can confess your failures and sins to the priest.If you don’t your not a good catholic and this is repeated on a weekly and in some cases daily basis.

    The Church also has power in schools so if some people are actually thinking differently to there teachings,they will probably have to fall in line to get there kids into the local school and continue the trend of trans-generational faith. I can also imagine some parents fear of having their child isolated or bullied because they are different so they might just go with the flow and fall in line.( we have sadly and tragically recently seen the results of bullying with children)

    Now i suggest to question the story logic of the religion in this case Catholicism, does it make sense? The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.

    If God made all life and Humans are by there very design faulty why punish them for his mistakes?
    Why could this all powerful figure not just make a peaceful utopia in the first place?
    I often hear people say when something good happens its a miracle from God! However when something bad happens its for a reason or he works in mysterious ways. Our when some terrible act of violence is committed that Humans have free will so God can’t interfere. Please ask yourself if you truly believe this blind flawed logic.

    Now back on to the Catholic Church except they are a Church only in name. What do i mean by this?(glad you asked)
    The Catholic Church is a Corporation! It has many multiple billions in assets.It has the means to help the sick the poor and the people who are in desperate need.Actually is this not what they teach? but fail to do!
    ( before someone interjects with the work they do,ask yourself how much of there profits and resources do they truly use) In there dogmatic teachings did Jesus help people? did he hang out with the high rollers and live large?
    Did Jesus teach to keep so much wealth? what did he say about greed? anyway you get my point.

    Now before i am attacked for this piece, allow me to say that i am of the opinion if you believe in a personal God or Creator and you feel it makes you a better person and are helpful to people then i say more power to you.
    Where i would disagree is in the flawed logic of the dogmatic teachings of a Ruthless Corporation which has been responsible for mass killings(sorry for the pun) corruption and supporting and covering up of abuse of children not only physical,sexual and psychological. A so called Church that has for years shown nothing but contempt for women, for years done its best to hold back science.

    If God exists would God really want his people to support and defend such a Church?
    I would ask all Catholics who are decent people to write or email to the Vatican and their dioceses to ask for the Ultimate sign of Solidarity to Humanity and use 99% of its assets to help the poor and sick of the world.Imagine what a statement that would make a Church actually practicing what it preaches.

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  • I remember in primary school whenever one of our teachers was out, they used to get a former retired teacher from the local area in to cover for a few days. One particular teacher used to make us say 5 decades of the rosary every morning. She had boys and girls in competition with each other to see which would have the most people volunteer to lead the prayers.

    Shocking stuff when I think about it now.

    I used to believe in Santa back then too by the way.

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  • Like this a lot. The sooner the state gets its nose out of the religious trough the better for everyone… Including or especially the Churches.. If religious education is to have any strength it must be able to stand on its own two feet. As long as the Churches use the crutch of the State to support its mission, the weaker they become and the more compromised the State becomes.

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    • Fully agree with you Shane.
      Religious organisations should start educating there congregation themselves in places such as Sunday Schools and then demand that there facilities are only used by those who practice that particular faith .
      They would have a much smaller flock but of a much higher quality . The people in the wedding and funeral industry might not be well pleased but the Church’s would get a flock who actually believe in what is been preached .

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    • @Jerry… Should be no problem get a flock in this country. ;-)

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  • We should remove all prayers and religious services from education and educate our children of all beliefs and faiths, when they are old enough they can accept or reject whatever religion they choose.
    No more brainwashing by any one group.
    Education and information = informed decision.

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  • It is worth remembering that this is not a simple case of to teach Catholic teachings or to not teach any religion. Many of our citizens are Muslim, Buddhist, Baha’i etc. These people have great difficulty when attending Catholic secondary schools as they are virtually forced to atend school mass etc.
    If the parents object the children might be victimised or bullied in subtle ways thereafter.

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  • definately agree. religion should be taught at home. remember all these ‘meaningful’ hail Mary’s before class started? Did anyone even concentrate during it and gave it any meaning? was pure repetition. and the whole religion curriculum. Certainly this should be changed

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  • Jill :D 01/11/12 #

    Religion definitely should be taken out of schools. I just finished secondary school in June where I was forced to study religion as a non-exam subject. Any Islamic girls in my class never had to participate even though we’d be learning about several dofferent kinds of religions and Islam was one of them. Yet one of my atheist friends requested to not attend the class but they still forced her to go.

    Ive had the Catholic religion shoved down my throat in school since junior infants so I was used to it but when it came to secondary school I left every religion class being much more sceptical of the Catholic religion.

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  • To quote Christopher Hitchens:
    “Religion poisons everything!”

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  • Paul MC 01/11/12 #

    Lets stick with catholic based model, tell our kids to accept without question what the men in frocks that are not allowed to get married and have children tell them.
    Tell them to believe the heads of orders that covered up child abuse for decades.
    Tell them to pray to the head of the Catholic Church that protected and covered up child molesters and rapists for decades.
    Tell them there is no other choice and they will burn in the fires of hell for all eternity if they are not good little catholics.

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  • I just finished my thesis on this! (Thrilling stuff I know) people are worried that we will lose even more of our culture should we secularise schools! The Catholic Church Yeah I read the trilogy, I read a lot and wanted to see what the fuss was about! always played an important role in local communities! On the other hand religion has become something left up to teachers, the sacraments are a matter of ticking the boxes! Should it be taken out of school and dealt with by parents it would be taken more seriously and not just be seen as a “big day out!” I am enthusiastic about the role of the Catholic Church changing in Irish schools but it won’t be as simple as changing over night! Smaller communities wont be happy!

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    • I hope you fail. Irish culture has absolutely nothing to do with The Italian Catholic Church. A secular school would contain far more culture than the monoculture of one religion. You haven’t addressed a single issue posted above where people are demanding a separation of church and state. Was it a thesis or a prayer you wrote?

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    • @ William! It was a thesis! I support secularism but just stating the points I got in feedback from members of the church clergy, 40 parents and 40 trackers!

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    • It was a thesis! I agree with secularism but just stating the responses I got from teachers, parents and members of the church clergy!

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  • I’m waiting with bated breath for schools to become non specific religious. I’d like my kids to learn about religion in general as there are so many in the world but I’m not too gone on the catholic religion. Having said all that there are 2 multidenominational schools In the city I live but they are on the opposite side of the city from where I live and I have no means of getting the kids there. I start work at 8:30 so the crèche drops the kid to school. There are other factors in my choice also. The school that I sent my son to isn’t my local school. I picked a school that I felt could cater for my sons needs. But for him to be looked after and have his sna and his resource hours and for his teacher to really want to help him do well I’ve had to swallow my opinions on religion as much as I hate to do so! All in all my son loves school and is keeping up with his class and has friends. That is worth anything to me! Just don’t expect me to start taking him to mass any time soon! ;)

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    • Luckily for you the junior and leaving cert subject ‘religion’ will cater for your desire for your child to learn about world religions. Unfortunately for your child it is the most boring subject in the curriculum as proofed by the lowest retention rate from junior to leaving cert.

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    • its low because very few schools offer it at leaving cert level and mostly because its considered quite a difficult subject to get points in. leaving cert religion is quite philosophy based but most students want to do subjects where they can learn stuff off by heart instead of having to think for themselves.

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    • Well to make matters worse because of my sons needs (and no I’m not rich before it’s commented on. It’s what my son needs) he will be going to a private secondary school and it happens to be anglican. What religious ethos the school has isn’t as important to me as making sure my kids have the best shot they can at having a happy healthy life!

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    • Eric, I don’t know if that’s completely true about how religion is taught in post-primary schools.

      I’ll put my hands up and say that I don’t know how it actually is taught but if you look at the syllabus it is heavily christian oriented. Even in terms of teacher guidelines and books mentioned – mostly christian (or catholic).

      Maybe if there was a post-primary religion teacher on here they might enlighten us as to whether that is how it translates to the classroom?

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  • I am an Atheist. I resent your comment. It is bigoted and hateful and directed at a specific religion.The hierarchy of the Catholic church is not representative of the vast majority of Catholics who are ashamed of its current leadership and its stance on the abuse scandal.

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  • It’s pretty incredible that after all the atrocities they have perpetrated against children, the Catholic Church is apparently still the best option to run 90% of Irish primary schools.
    For that reason alone they shouldn’t be within an ass’ roar of children. But in the ‘communion’ and ‘confirmation’ years, up to a third of teaching time is taken up by religion. So, thousands of kids can barely read, write or do simple maths, but, sure, at least they know their magic spells off-by-heart.

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  • Teaching religion to kids is akin to psychological abuse and often use as a tawdry way of instilling a fear based “morality”

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  • Tommy C 02/11/12 #

    Im guessing if they take religion out of schools then the muslim school in Clonskeagh will close too? That doesnt allow any non muslim kids to join unlike the catholic schools.

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  • Great article and comments. IMO The State has no business in supporting religion.

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  • Excellent article Jane, it’s hard to believe that in 2012 we have such problems with religious discrimination in our education sysytem, thanks for highlighting the problem. Reading the comments above I’m hopeful that it’s just a matter of time before we see a fair education system in place in Ireland.

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  • this stinks of one of the last things our ‘fab’ catholic church is trying to hold onto. The Educate together schools model is the way to go in my view. a lot of people in the country need to take the blinkers off and look a lot closer to home than blaming foreign nationals for various problems in Ireland. In fact (despite me being a non practising catholic) anything to do with the catholic church in this country can kiss my hole!

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  • No hard evidence that god / son of existed. The only evidence was from writings from a few hardcore followers of some fella named jesus.

    So this kind of nonsense should be kept away from schools, teach kids a subject will help them in life, science, another language etc

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    • how about we treat all children and parents equally. let’s say we allow 5 different religious ethos the opportunity to indoctrinate one day a week. that way all parents get the opportunity to have to organise childcare at short notice for the hour in the middle of the day and each child get to experience peer pressure and isolation at some stage. why should only a vocal minority have all the fun

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    • Ah. You’re back. I was hoping it was the proof I asked you to provide that this not a dream ….. Waiting

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  • @Mary – We are all still waiting on your evidence that a supreme being exists.

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    • God is certainly more believable than the big bang theory,and that is what it is a theory .For century’s scientists have tried to prove that a series of accidents brought about the universe.Christianity has survived persecution and people forecasting its demise for two thousand years.the question is why should a religion that teaches turning the other cheek.calling all mankind your brother/sister.and looking after the poor .the sick ,the downtrodden survive ?because it goes to the core values of living a decent life. If we want to preach secularism and other fleeting values and role models then you will get last nights behaviour.People need to believe in something that is constant and permanent in an ever changing world.where religion was discarded society suffered and religion returned stronger than ever,eg Soviet Union.Jesus gave his life preaching the message of love,tolerance and caring for those less fortunate .Over the centuries millions of Christians have died living these beliefs.Long after the diehards in this column have passed on this message will survive an continue to grow.

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    • Please provide proof that this is not a dream, that we are not figments of your imagination and that you are, in fact NOT a two headed creature from another galaxy.

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    • Ghandi, half the things you’ve mentioned “looking after the poor, turning the other cheek” are not exclusive to Christianity. There are far older belief systems than Christianity, by your logic will they too eventually truimph over the fleeting values of your particular belief system?

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    • Ghandi, you seem confused as to what a theory is, this may be helpful:

      “The word ‘theory’ does not mean it is ‘disputed.’

      The difference between theory and law is not one of “truth” or in how confident we are about it. It is not a difference in degree. Theories are not ‘inferior facts.’ Theories don’t graduate to become “laws” by being “proven.”

      A law is a kind of *fact* … an observation that appears to be universally true everywhere we look. A law is usually a single statement, and expressed in terms of an equation.

      A theory is an *explanation* for facts. A theory can embody a large set of statements, which can grow as the theory expands to explain more observations, more facts. It explains facts. It cannot “become” a fact.

      So what we call the ‘germ theory of disease’ started out as the *explanation* for many of the observed *facts* about diseases … how they spread, what causes them to be worse, why hygiene can reduce their spread. But it has expanded to everything we know about bacteria and viruses, virulence, pathology, epidemiology, etc. etc. … all of these subsets of what we still call ‘germ theory’. It is, and always will be, called ‘theory’, not because anybody disputes whether microorganisms cause disease, but because all of it together is an *EXPLANATION* for facts.

      Just remember that when people say ‘the theory of X’ … that does not mean “the disputed fact of X” … it means “what explains X, or is explained *by* X.”

      The theory of gravity is NOT the “dispute over whether gravity exists” (that is not in question) … it means “what explains gravity, or what is explained *by* gravity.”

      The theory of evolution is NOT the “dispute over whether evolution exists” (that is not in question) … it means “what explains evolution, or what is explained *by* evolution.”

      Ditto the photon theory of light. The atomic theory of matter. The plate tectonics theory of geology. The heliocentric theory of the solar system. And on and on.

      A theory is NOT an unproven fact, or unproven law. A theory is an *EXPLANATION* for facts … sometimes even an *EXPLANATION* for laws.”

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  • Neil 01/11/12 #

    I spent most of my school years in an Irish Catholic school but part of my secondary schooling was in a secular school abroad. Catholicism was hammered into us here however the more worrying thing about it was when moral teachings about issues such as divorce, euthanasia etc were taught. While I held certain religious views when I was in school, even as a child I felt the morality teachings were wrong.

    In the secular school, we were educated on all religions, and discussion about morality was encouraged rather than preached. As my classmates were made up off my different religions, I gained a respect and tolerance (as well as understanding) of other people’s religions and views than I ever would have received in Ireland. tudents were involved in educated us on their religion as well as teachers educating us. Dare i say it, it was interesting and fun. Overall it was very beneficial as a child.

    I’d be more keen to see Irish removed as a subject in school and have religious teaching changed to the model I experienced abroad.

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    • why would you want Irish removed from schools? Come to Australia where an Anglo Saxon culture is forced upon everyone which results in colourless people with little depth or personality.

      A bit of culture and identity should be promoted rather than our children thinking they’re John Terry or Tupac

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    • Neil 01/11/12 #

      What identity and culture has the compulsory teaching of Irish brought us Kevin?

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    • @Kevin, if the compulsory teaching of Irish in our schools is so important to our society, how come none of us can speak it! Irish classes are a comprehensive failure when, after 12 or 13 years or having it drilled onto you, you still can’t string a proper sentance together.

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    • Irish poetry gave me an appreciation of topical issues in the period they were written in such as Martin O’Direains poems on emigration. Padraig O’Conaire was a man born well before his time, he wrote about issues which were not spoken of in the early 20th century such as prostitution, arranged marriages and insanity. Padraig Pearse works gave me an understanding of Irish politics around 1916. The book Peig showed us the abject poverty into which Irish people were born into, lived in, died in young or emigrated from. Learning the language gave me an appreciation of the dialect of English spoken in the west of Ireland.

      And finally it’s a beautiful language to be able to speak.

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  • I think a compromise is required . Teach religion as a social subject warts and all. I wished my peers and I were more informed about the hidden history of the RCC ; how they became so wealthy and powerful in the last century thanks to a man called Bernardino Nogara ; Their collusion with fascist powers and investments in very non Christian enterprises such as munitions etc. ; The involvement and support of the Ustase. ; The endorsement of slavery; anti-semetism ; anti democracy; homophobia; Not to mention the mass crimes covered up in this country; But alas this will never be taught in Catholic dominated schools because they know it will make the Institution of the Roman Catholic Church an object of ridicule .

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  • perhaps but there should without doubt be some subject to replace it call it spiritual or what ever where our children can have an understanding and a healthy respect for all life …

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  • The biggest fear religious people have is that if the school system is secularised then people will loose faith and the religious body in Ireland understands that if given a choice then people will start to see through the fantasy religion presents. I say it should be removed. I say there is no place for religion in a society as scientifically advanced as ours.
    The whole reason for the creation of god/gods was because we couldn’t explain things but now, through science, we have a greater understanding of how our universe works. We need to remove religious PRACTICE from education, politics, healthcare etc. The fact that religion has held on this long astounds me.
    Let me be clear I have no problem with religious people just the supposed “moral” beliefs it is meant to instill. the “moral” beliefs that have been used to justify some of the greatest atrocities in history from The Crusades to 9/11. From the Spanish Inquisition to the Holocaust. All of these are condoned by some as being “morally” justified

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    • If what you say is true, Colin, why, with so much knowledge of science, do most people in the world believe in some sort of god?

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    • @Maria Conroy Byrne
      They believe that it preaches a good message and teaches morals. Most people also believe that in heaven and hell, or are at least duped into believing it there they believe that they have to follow the “moral” code set out by there respective faiths. I can understand this, most people have a warranted fear of dying be it conscious or subconscious, so if they think that there is something “better” after this life then it helps. I have a fear of death but it’s only because I know that there is nothing after this and want to go on as long as I can and do as much as I can. The problem is that if you fear the idea of going to hell then you will, again consciously or not, focus on the negative aspects of your life.
      The other main reason why people still believe in a god is because it’s all we know. I was raised a catholic and it was only when I was in 4th year in secondary school that we learned about different faiths i.e. protestant, judaism etc. When it’s all you know it’s harder to accept anything else. Actually for that matter I also remember that our science books in school made little to no mention of evolution, I think the same principle applies.

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    • I think that explanation is too simplistic and doesn’t explain the thousands of rational adults who convert to a religion or from another religion.

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    • Most people who “find” religion have some sort of experience that doesn’t convert them but simply strengthens a belief they already held. The few I have heard about, mainly because I like to hear both sides, were already what would be deemed as lax-catholics. There is no real conversion. People who change religion are honestly the best proof of the lack of need for religion, I mean if you are born into one faith, most of which basically say the same thing, then why do they feel the need to change. People who convert make no sense to me. As I have said before, I disagree with religion not religious people but when people convert from one “message of hope” to another “message of hope” it makes no sense unless they see something wrong with how the message is conveyed by one religion or the other.
      While this may not be a great explanation it is my thoughts on the matter.

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  • As Christopher Hitchens said, people are perfectly entitled to play their toys. Where the trouble starts is when they try to force me to play with them, or come to my house and force my kids to play with them! Something to bear in mind.

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  • If a person wants religion to be infused throughout their day and they are an adult who works in an office, how do you suppose they should go about that?

    One way might be to quietly pray to themselves in their lunch break and before and after work.

    Another might be to petition their employers to petition the employers to host Mandatory denominational prayers with 100% attendance required?

    Which do you think is more reasonable? If the former, then why do you think the latter should apply to schools?

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  • I think most religious people are terrified of the idea of secular schools because they think that kids will stop believing. I honestly believe that this is one the most positive results that could be gained from secular schooling. It may lead to the eventual religation of religion to the history books.
    I am an athiest and honestly think that there is no place for god in a society as scientifically advanced as ours and if we become a more secular society i.e. remove religion from schools, politics, hostitals etc. then we would advance faster and gain a much better understanding of the beauty and power of the universe

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  • Off-topic.

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  • “If a god is willing to prevent evil, but not able, then he is not omnipotent. If he is able, but not willing, then he must be malevolent. If he is neither able or willing then why call him a god? Why else do bad things happen to good people?”-Franklyn 2009

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  • We are agnostics, and my daughter goes to the local Loretto Convent, Our lack of religion has not been a problem. The religion they are studying this year is Muslim. I have found being a third generation agnostic that it has never been a problem. It seems to be more of an issue to people who were reared catholic and have opted out.

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  • Totally agree with this article, alas this is the Theocracy of Ireland we are talking about here and little will change unless there is a real effort by the people of Ireland to make that change, in my experience that is not the case, so many Irish people claim to be “not religious’ yet they are happy to go along with the christening’s, communions, confirmations, weddings and of course funerals all provided by none other than the catholic church! (in most cases) Hypocrites to a man and woman!. It’s the same old story and the yellow streaked politicians know full well that they need to do very little to change anything because most people in Ireland are happy to go along with things as they are, until that is.. it’s their child who is abused by a priest or a christian brother or their daughter who is kicked out of school for getting pregnant. The Irish government was and is always looking to do as little as possible when it comes to providing Education, Health and Social policy (look at the way they are avoiding having to deal with abortion) it is a national disgrace that in the 21st century Ireland has it’s schools and teaching colleges in the hands of an organisation that is so rooted in the middle ages that they are incapable of recognising evolution and still think that some super being ‘created’ the universe! Yet some people still want these clowns running the education system? Says all you need to know. Get religion OUT of the schools and make them ALL secular, if people want religion let them do it in their own time.

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  • Could he not just go to the library during these religious things. I went to a catholic primary and sat out all religion classes no problems at all with it. There was myself and one other that didn’t participate in the religion thing in school

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    • These days school insurance doesn’t cover it anymore and kids aren’t allowed unsupervised. I went to secondary in the early 00′s and wasn’t allowed to sit out of catholic masses or indeed confession, despite not being catholic.

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  • Look this argument is pointless. We all know that the Flying Spaghetti Monster is the true creator of everything.
    Now if everyone would join me in prayer….
    Our saucer which art in a colander, draining be Your noodles.
    Thy noodle come, Thy meatballness be done on earth, as it is meaty in heaven.
    Give us this day our daily sauce, and forgive us our lack of piracy, as we pirate and smuggle against those who lack piracy with us.
    And lead us not into vegetarianism, but deliver us from non-red meat sauce.
    For thine is the colander, the noodle, and the sauce, forever and ever.
    R’Amen.

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  • This is only an issue because of the way the Irish education system is run. If we vote Yes in the children’s referendum the state will be able to insist we send our children to religious classes never mind school otherwise they will deem that as parents we will have failed to provide for the moral upbringing of our children. Then they can take our children into care, and parents will have to go to court to defend their right not have their children indoctrinated into a religion. I hope this student wins their case. However I bet they will lose as the state has a lot more to lose than they do.

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  • this is religious discrimination and it clearly breaches the human rights of minorities. In addition to this it permits religion to be integrated into all subjects. It is impossible for minorities to opt out of a religious ethos.

    Yes, and you can be brought to court to prevent Irish children associating with alien barbarian Buddhists. the in camera rule means no one can report on this.

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  • excellent article. going slightly off topic i was speaking with a german wiman who told me that they must pay a tax to belong to a church. now their system has avtually ended up being extremely anti atheist when applying fir a job however i kind of like the idea of taxing something that causes such division in society. maybe then more people might stand up and oppose the states total apathy in tackling what for many is a very serious issue, indoctrination of children into taking fantasy as fact and blindly following vague and conflicting rules that have little use in modern society. educate children in science instead of the gobbeldygook contained in religious texts

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  • William, presumably if your hypothetical child was whisked away to a secular upbringing where he was taught that religion was a cultural aberration that wouldn’t count as brainwashing at all? Or would that count as good brainwashing?

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  • what about Educate together schools? they are plenty of these primary schools in Ireland now & from 2013 there will be 4 secondary schools, these school are NOT fee paying & everyone is welcome.

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    • There’s hardly ‘plenty’ when the Catholic Church run over 90% of the schools in Ireland.

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    • Again, they’re not in every area. The last thing you want is your teenager travelling 45 minutes to school. Also, secondary schools have a catchment area they must provide for first, if you’re not in that area you might not even get the offer of a place.

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    • i tried to sign my daughter up for one when she was 18 months. she was 94 on the waiting list. never got a place. lets give those schools the state premises so they can take more students

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    • Educate together schools are fantastic. They encourage and teach awareness, tolerance and respect. Sadly lacking in in catholic schools methinks.
      And to those who categorically state god does or does not exist, you are both wrong Pastafarianism is the true way. Oh hail his appendages of noodly goodness. ( I believe it so it HAS to be true).

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    • My problem with Educate Together is they are also not secular. they are multi-denominational, so they still have waste time and resources on teaching religion.

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    • Given that there are circa 15,000 non-religious children in Ireland (see the 2011 census), and that that number will only increase, do yo really think that 65 ET schools are enough, even if all those parents were able to get their children to the ET schools, which may be many miles away from their homes? Do you really think that 4 secondary schools will be able to cope when those tens of thousands of children are of age.

      The RCC needs to hand over the school buildings to the government, as part of the billions of euro they owe for compensation to the people abused in various RCC institutions.

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    • Tony, well said. My children went to the NDNSP in Glasnevin from the day it opened in the early 70′s and I would be confident in saying that their moral, civic and intellectual needs were better met there than a religious school. One of the best head teachers in Ireland ran it for years, Sally Sheils.

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    • Yes de Burke, and that is not to mention the very many parents who may themselves be religious but do not want their children to have a segregated sectarian education! In my son’s Educate Together primary there were parents from different religions, including Catholic, who simply did not see the logic of having segregated education… we must get the message that these schools are not for some putative minority of atheists, they cater for and respect all people, whether religious or not!

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    • Definitely not plenty. ‘Hardly any’ would be more accurate and with the licences being handed to denominational boards like in greystones and gorey ( where there ate now 5 denominational schools) when there is huge support for Educate Together, the problem is static not improving.

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  • Siobhan how does belief in God stop you from voicing your opinions, we were always free to voice and debate any opinion

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    • I remember telling my parents that its not physically possible for a God to exist and they asked me did I not want to make my confirmation so then I kept quiet because I didn’t want to be left out.

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    • In my opinion, nothing about the catholic church is free, everything comes at a price and look throughout the history of Ireland and tell certain people you could have your opinion and rights to believe what you wanted when religion was involved. Not to mention illegal abortion and adoption that was also forced on young mothers due to “free” beliefs and opinions?

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  • All Catholic schools must teach a minimum of 2 hours religion per week.This is a directive from the Bishops.

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  • We could be throwing the baby out with the bath water here. In the US Catholic schools are the most sought after by parents to educate their children. Where as state run schools have the worst reputation. Honestly ask yourself would you believe that our government would do a better job ?
    Seriously ???
    When the “religious” ran the hospitals there was no such thing as bad hygiene or the MRSA bug ! Some jobs have to be regarded as a vocation !

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    • Brian you are correct… Catholic Schools are often the most sought out in the US. However, in the US there are a number of other schools that are run by other religious orders. The difference between the US and Ireland is that… Funding is available for all recognized religious orders and no one religious order is recognized by the state as more important than one over the other. With the religious state supporting only catholicism in the schools that state is saying that catholicism is better than other religions.

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    • Catholics schools are more selective in their criteria for choosing students as well as funding. You need only look at England to see the competition among parents to get their kids into these schools. as they are seen to be better schools.

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    • same here in Brisbane. I know protestant couples who have baptized their kids Catholic just to gain entry.

      welcome to the great unwashed I tell them.

      the state schools are the first to be hit financially when labour aren’t in power so you can’t blame the parents for trying to gain a competitive advantage for their children.

      I don’t care if my child is taught that snufulufugus is the Lord Almighty as long as he gets a top education.

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    • your spot on Brian, when a moral standard is removed and kids are being taught what’s rite and what’s wrong is up to themselves havoc ensues, then they wait till they are in prison to give them bibles and teach them morals, can’t have it every way!!

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    • @Sinead

      Bullshit! Religion is not the only source of good morals and it is very ignorant of you to say that non religious people will just end up in prison.

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    • Terayon, I think you’re rite :))

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    • Very ignorant of you to say that i said non religious people would end up in prison! I do however believe the Bible is a good solid base to use for teaching morals! There are so many institutions now that don’t provide any set rules or standards or enforce them if they do, it is allowing children (of any belief) to run riot with little or no consequence for their actions. Can’t in blaming God for that! Society is failing and it’s everyone for themselves!the bible is being replaced with do whatever makes YOU feel good, may sound lovely and flowery but it’s causing a whole generation to think they are more important than the next person and selfishness is rife (and they think it’s acceptable because that’s what’s coming across from all directions) you don’t need to agree with me but that is my belief!

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    • Since when were moral standards become the exclusive rights of the Catholic Church? In fact, if anything the teachings of the Catholic Church could be considered as immoral, the Bible supports sexism, homphobia, slavery, child abuse, rape and mass genocide, not exactly a book you want your children to base their morality on. The limited good morals found in the Bible, such as a version of the Golden Rule, are massively overshadowed by a plethora of immorality.

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    • So can you clarify if it’s “non religious”, “religious”, “or all of the above” people you were referring to.
      You say you weren’t referring to non religious people which, really, can only leave religious people by my count. If religious people are still carrying out immoral acts, doesn’t that suggest that religion is failing to teach morality to it’s followers in the first place, therefor religion teaching morality in prison would be a waste of time and money.
      I for one am not religious. I base my morals on humanism and I, as well as my children, don’t seem to be carrying out that many immoral acts that I’m aware of.

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  • Éamonn 01/11/12 #

    Atheists complain about being forced to learn about God / Creationism. Religious people complain about being forced to learn about the Big Bang Theory / the Theory of Natural Selection. Has the question of Human Rights been championed by the latter of the two as fiercely? Probably not. For the record, I support both teachings and if both are taught inside their respective disciplines (Scientific theories in Science, Religious theories in Religious Studies), then why not? They are simply theories after all. Therefore my response to all on both sides? Catch yourselves on and worry yourselves with more important things in life.

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  • A lot of people hear really have a thing against religion don’t they!!! No I can promise you I’m no holy joe but the hatred for religion is slightly scary.

    The way I look at it school is a life learning experience, you do all sorts of stuff, some you like some you don’t. Are most of the posters here so afraid of there own and their kids intellectual abilities that explosion to a bit of religion will cause them to run off and join a monastery???

    Why are people fussing over something so trivial? Most people will take a little something from the religion studied, most of the stories in primary school were based about doing right and wrong, how is that bad? Encouraging people to live better lives and all that.

    Look people send your child to the local school where all the friends are, if you are afraid of the religion aspect you have to choices; first go to the school when religion is happening and supervise the child yourself (not practical for most) or just talk to your child about the caring side of religion while also mentioning the bad things organized religion have done.

    I can promise you, if the parent has a disdain for organized religion the child will follow suit. Not to worry all you religion haters your child will be one just like you :)

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    • “the hatred for religion is slightly scary.”

      The hypocritical fervour of the anti-religionistas should be welcomed.

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    • I would think the thousands of children that were abused by Catholic priests have “a thing against religion” and rightly so.

      If it’s harmless, why did so many young girls “run off to join monasteries” and ruin their lives?

      It’s hardly trivial if the end result was for centuries a brainwashed race of Catholics who believed everything the priests told them.

      “A lot of people” detest religion BECAUSE it is utter superstitious nonsense and should have been consigned to the dustbin of history decades ago. It is disappearing, look at the latest statistics for France, 9% go to Church, UK, 15% and attendance in Ireland is dropping rapidly.

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    • Damocles 01/11/12 #

      “young girls “run off to join monasteries” ”

      Convents?

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    • Can I run off to join a monastery? I’d love the peace and quiet and I’ve a good bit of reading to catch up on! Why the presumption that the religious life is all bad and, William, why do you never point to the good work that’s being done by Catholics and the numerous people who would totally abhor any abuse of children? It must be awful to be a priest or religious nowadays with all the negativity and sweeping generalisations.

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    • Damocles 01/11/12 #

      “Can I run off to join a monastery?”

      I suspect the monks would complain.

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    • What about this one, Damocles? ; )
      http://www.glencairnabbey.org/

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    • I don’t think that most of the comments here amount to hatred of religion. Most people are saying that it is limiting factor on the intellectual development of young people and potentially injurious to their mental health. This is critique, not hatred.

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  • There are two thing we can rely on as fact and inevitable
    Death and taxes.

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  • Damocles 01/11/12 #

    To go back, however briefly, to the point of the article.

    The woman has a point, there is a percentage in breaking the stranglehold the Roman Catholic Church has on schools in this country. If the Roman Catholic Church was like the Church Of England in the UK there wouldn’t be a problem. The Church Of England is effectively a big social club these days.

    But rather than secularism perhaps pluralism should be the real key. Not a purality of schools, so much as pluralist schools. Let the Roman Catholic and other church schools be required to adopt pluralist methods. And given the nature of our pluralist society that would allow for agnostic and atheistic philosophies.

    After all, if we present children with everything and give them the cognitive tools to think freely they’ll choose the right one, won’t they?

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  • Damocles 01/11/12 #

    Perhaps Michael Gove’s Free Schools should be tried over here.

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  • Maybe Pol Pot’s idea of starting at Year Zero would solve all the problems. Start again from a complete neutral zone? . Otherwise, we will have some conflicted by still living in 2012 A.D

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  • At the end of the day non-denominational secondary schools will never happen in Ireland. The state doesn’t own the buildings in which these schools operate. It can’t afford to buy them out and it can’t afford to replace them. So this discussion is pointless at second level anyway as its never going to happen!

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  • Leaving aside the heady topic of whether or not there is a deity, parents should have the option to decide under which delibarate structure of morality they wish to educate their child and they should expect that they have available to them a school which will support them in that structure and will instill in them an appropriate structure should no decision be taken by the parents.

    Now, while many people are somewhat disenchanted with the behaviour of some elements of the Roman Catholic in Ireland of late I suspect few parents would say that they actively disagree with the moral code put across by Roman Catholic belief, “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you”, “Care for one another”, and so on. These values are universal.

    Should any parent prefer to not instill their child with such values I would venture to suggest that they have a wider issue with society as a whole.

    It is imperative therefore that these values are taught to children regardless, within whichever structure.

    Within such a structure of morality we would be hard pressed to suggest that teaching children about other cultural and belief structures would be non-preferable. We live in an increasingly plural society, so plurality should be reflected in our schools.

    I’m going the long way about this, but schools should teach children about the plurality of opinion and should teach them the mechanisms of thought and understanding to be able to function in a plural society such that they can can judge what is most suitable for them, allowing for familial influences, and to do so without being prejudicial.

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    • Would parents actively disagree with the moral code put forward by the Catholic Church. You’re joking???

      Homophobia, child abuse, lies, cover ups, misogyny, anti-science, superstition, morals based on a 2000 year old set of essays that include encouraging genocide, etc etc etc

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    • Damocles 01/11/12 #

      “You’re joking?”

      You’re misunderstanding, perhaps wilfully.

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    • Damocles, you speak as if children are somehow incapable of knowing from socialisation and their own innate co-operative make-up as members of the human species how to be co-operative and moral creatures, that they somehow need this ‘instilled’ in them. The idea nowadays that seems to work best at creating intrinsic morality (rather than intrinsic – ie taught and adhered to either to avoid punishment or to garner approval) is to facilitate children (in an age appropriate way) to explore morality and feelings so that they can understand first their own feelings and then how others might feel if they act a certain way. This kind of approach (whole school approach to emotional literacy) is proven to work in creating co-operative, kind learning environments with low bullying and better performance, as well as young people who have their own intrinsic moral compass and can think for themselves. This is better that the outdated approach of ‘teaching’ morality or right from wrong. Most belief systems, whether religious or not, have kindness, compassion, love, responsibility, interdependence and co-operation at their core, but most also have other much more unsavoury elements as well. It simply does not compute that rejecting a Catholic moral education is rejecting morality. There are many belief systems in this world, and many of their basic tenets would be in conflict with other belief systems – none are simply about morality and love thy neighbour – it is simply wrong to say that.

      I saw an interesting film once of a study of three-year-old children in a group setting – they were filmed without a teacher sitting in their group and it showed how very much they were capable even at that age of showing compassion and justice and sorting out their own issues as a group – saying for example that’s not fair you should let her have a go. There was a small disagreement and it showed how the teacher intervening at this point actually escalated the disagreement and caused a much worse outcome than if the teacher had not intervened. The fact is that children are picking up clues about co-operative behaviour from the time they are born – example is in fact documented to be their best teacher – so what we do, not so much as what we say… but the fact is that they are pro-social by nature, but it takes time to develop fully…

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    • Sorry, that should read “…(rather than extrinsic…” !!!

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    • Damocles 01/11/12 #

      “schools should teach children about the plurality of opinion and should teach them the mechanisms of thought and understanding to be able to function in a plural society such that they can can judge what is most suitable for them, allowing for familial influences, and to do so without being prejudicial.”

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    • Fair point Damocles, you did say that and I agree. Apologies if you thought I was criticising you – I suppose I went off on one about children being intrinsically good etc etc!!! Have a good day.

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    • Damocles 01/11/12 #

      I didn’t fully understand why you seemed to be having a go at me when we basically agreed.

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    • I think children can often work out their own problems and come to a satisfactory resolution, but they can also be capable of bullying, cruelty and exclusion. A lot of children do have to be taught that we should share what we have, that we don’t reject someone because they’re different and that you can’t use your superior power to dominate the weak or the vulnerable. Like adults, children can be lacking in empathy or influenced by peer pressure. The Christian message of loving one’s enemy is a pretty challenging one and not one that’s always supported by popular culture. There are other ways to live and other philosophies, not all of them in the best interests of society. You could argue for a survival of the fittest approach to life that tramples on the needs of the poor and the struggling or favour a society where justice was more important than mercy. I think it’s all down to choice and if large groups of parents favour a particular style of education which encompasses their philosophy, the option of availing of it should be there.

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    • Do onto others etc. is the central belief of Christianity but Catholicism contains many other dogmas that are increasingly seen as out of step with a modern republic and the views of a majority of the population. Indeed, as you yourself point out; it is a universal value. It is not the preserve of Catholics or anyone else. A secular ethics course would include this idea also.

      Ethics should be a choice throughout our education system; sitting in an empty classroom or library during religion classes is not acceptable. There is a strong case that it should be the only option and let religious instruction to the parents.

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    • By your logic the state should fund a creationist school should there be a demand, in order to give parents choice. Is that right?

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    • Sorry Maria, what I am arguing against is the idea that you should seek to instill or teach ‘right and wrong’ or morals – the most important thing is modelling – which can be very challenging for parents – so model treating one another, including your child, with respect and equality, speaking politely, being kind, being caring, not shouting, not drinking too much, sharing, compassion etc and self-discipine. Children will take this up when they are at the right stage of development – for example, before a particular age a young child simply cannot see something from another person’s point of view and sharing can be difficult, a teenager cannot fully judge the outcome of their actions and will tend to act on impulse until their pre-frontal cortex is fully developed at around age 21 – this is not because they do not ‘know’ right from wrong. In terms of bullying behaviour, isn’t this thought to come from the child not being brought up to be ‘emotionally literate’ – recognise their own emotions or those of others – the most bullying and violent have usually been witness to or victim of aggression and violence in their own upbringing – this is absolutely proven. So really, it is not about teaching any religion’s approach, it is about understanding child development and challenging yourself as a parent to model the behaviour you want your children to learn (do what I do, not do what I say) and support them to learn to recognise feelings – their own and other people’s – and the effect their actions can have, to make retribution etc. – religion has no particular patent on this. Forgiveness and compassion are not exclusive to religious people at all.

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    • I’d argue for both, Michelle. I think you can teach children about morals and what’s right and wrong, but if your life doesn’t reflect what you say, you may as well be talking to the wall. Children definitely copy what they see. At the same time, parents could act perfectly, but that doesn’t always mean that their children will act in the same way. We are thinking, rational human beings who can make our own choices and those choices aren’t always good ones or ones that our parents or mentors would be happy with. There are so many other influences in life like our peer group, what we read or view in the media, our personal preferences and our own unique characteristics. As parents we can only do our best and I agree with you that things like compassion and forgiveness are not exclusive to religious people. However, some Christian ideals like loving your enemy and turning the other cheek can be pretty counter cultural compared to some other models of how we should live.

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    • Maria, “Christian ideals like loving your enemy”… tell that to the thousands of the church’s enemies, including a scientist in the 15th century that stated that the Earth was not at the centre of the universe, who were burnt at the stake. You people live in a fog of total denial. As a religious journalist once told me, “no one hates like a Christian”.

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  • I believe that more than ever ,religion has a place in schools today,as a subject.If the mainstream religions were explained to the youth of today in schools it may lay a foundation for the politicians of the future to have a better understanding of the problems we face now,and seemingly fail to grasp.The international community is aligning itself on religious beliefs and philosophies that will eventually lead to war and all that entails. Ignoring this fact is only going to make the solution ,if there is a solution ,harder to achieve.A catholic,A Jew,A Muslim or Hindu with a rifle is one thing. With a nuclear weapon and an intention to use it if the opportunity presents itself is a completely different situation.We have had one cold war. The next one will be the last one.

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    • Interesting point, teach religion (not from a it is the only faith point of view but from an educational point of view€ in schools but cover all, well, perhaps the main ones. It may help develop a tolerant society when they grow up.

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    • the secondary religion curriculum allows scope to do this.

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    • Read the Religious Education syllabi at second level. It’s philosophy and world religions.

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    • And what about the syllabi at Junior level? Basic indoctrination and preparation for sacraments.

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    • Just a few little things to clear up:

      Lacking a belief in a god does not mean you don’t believe in anything anymore than lacking a belief in fairies does. For example: I don’t believe in god because because in order for me to believe something I require evidence of it’s existence. None is forthcoming in the case of god, Santa Claus, the tooth fairy, ghosts, Harry Potter*, etc. so I don’t believe any of those things are real.

      Sinead you seem to be shockingly ignorant of science as evidenced by your total lack of understanding of just what the word “theory” means in scientific parlance. In science before an idea can become a theory it must be supported by an overwhelming collection of data and observations and it must be rigorously tested. Evolution has passed those tests. It is fully supported by the facts, observational and experimental, and to such an extent even the Catholic Church has had to reluctantly admit that it is in fact true (even though it shows their doctrine of original sin to be the sick and twisted falsehood it actually is). Nothing in biology makes sense except through the knowledge of evolution via natural selection. Anyone who claims evolution is a fairy tale is either woefully ignorant of the science, deluded or lying. I suggest you actually take the time to learn about it.

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  • This article sucks; most Irish lads are no religious at all now a day. They are free birds with no concern to God or religions. Make a survey and you will find not even one in 10 knows to make a sign of the cross. I am surprise even, there is no catechism taught in schools neither here or anywhere. When all the old folks demised in Ireland, then you will find a very few who would still go to the church. There is no difference to the Irish if the school are denominated, secular, multi-denominated etc. In a free world if you are a Muslim build your own Madrasa and same goes with all others, please do not rely on government funding

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    • The question I have is why is there a choice? The idea of secular schools is to teach all sides. Personally I have no faith in any religious body, I believe the world would be a better place without religions regardless of what type and while I agree that after the older generations die there will be less people going to church that is not what the article is saying. The control that the church still exhibits is one of conformity, either join us or you will be excluded and I don’t know about you but as a teenager that was the last thing any teen wants.

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  • People have a right to choose and given the choice the majority of Irish people would seek out Catholic schools for their children as they do when they emigrate to other countries.

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    • You’re right. People have the right to choose. However, in this country there’s PLENTY of choice for Catholic parents however very few choices for non-Catholics or non religious. How is that fair? We all pay the same taxes. Take religious instruction and religious ethos away from schools and problem solved. There can still be a number of religious schools for those who want that kind of education.

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    • Catholic people founded Catholic secondary schools. Catholic people continue to run Catholic schools. If people want choice let them get up off there behinds and give the same effort and commitment to their own cause instead sitting moaning about it. They won’t though because they expect people to hand it to them. Moan loud enough and they think the state will give them what they want. People need to read up on the Catholic Voluntary Sector and realise that the state doesn’t own these schools.

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    • That’s easy for someone to say who the Catholic school setup suits, as they don’t have to get off their backside, they get it handed to them. Why should a group of people who pay their taxes not expect the State to provide schooling for their children? We all pay our taxes. It’s a travesty that the state doesn’t own these schools anyway, they should be handed over as part of the reparation of the devastation that they’ve caused to young people over the years in Ireland.

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    • Your response is an insult to the huge numbers of parents who have invested so much time in developing and fund-raising for multi-denominational schools – they have to fundraise and do so much work before they can ask the state to match fund – and then they may not be selected as a patron body, as happened recently in Greystones where it was given to the Church of Ireland (secondary school) – meaning there is NO multi-denominational secondary school for thousands of Educate Together educated children to progress onto despite the wonderful and enlightened blueprint Educate Together have for secondary schools… Anyway, why should the state not provide schools that cater for all without discrimination? We are a joke and if the United Nations Human Rights Committee has such strong concerns, that says something to me…

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  • LEAVE IT OUT!

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  • It should say in title *in my opinion*.. I don’t practise and can’t remember last time I was at mass but the two schools I attended were catholic run and my secondary was a convent! Absolutely loved it. Best years of my life and I got one hell of an education. Would definitely send my own kids to the same sort of institution…

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  • http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeSSwKffj9o

    George Carlin – Religion is bullshit.

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  • @Grogan: you seem to have a sheer determination to disagree with everyone! Have you ever taught in a catholic school? Have u ever taught in a Muslim school? An educate together school?

    You have a dislike of the Catholic Church and that’s fine but the Catholic Church has provided us with a system the state could not! There has to be changes made but moving totally away from the church will have a lasting impact on society! Since the release of the Ryan report more and more primary teachers are focusing on the moral values offered by the church but letting children make up their own minds! The bible is no longer taught as fact! Religious education is mainly used as a guide for lessons on moral values, right and wrong, caring for your family and those around you! It’s not a brainwashing technique!

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    • the Catholic Church has provided us with a system the state could not!

      What kind of logic is that?

      The state is the people, and we know the Irish state is run from Vatican since 1172. Cashel.

      All religions are methods of patriarchal control over others using mind control techniques, such as fear, sin, guilt etc.

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    • I meant in terms of financial support and land!

      We aren’t talking about the Catholic Church as a whole but it’s influence and role in Irish schools! I attended a catholic school, I’ve taught in Irish catholic schools! There is no brainwashing! Ultimately it comes down to the teacher! Teachers complete a certificate in religious education in college and basically it outlines the faults in the Catholic Church to encourage us to be more open minded when teaching! Religion isn’t forced down children’s throats anymore! It’s about exploring morality rather than the bible!

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  • Also our education system would be very different if not for the orders who dedicated their whole lives and a lot of their salaries to build the voluntary secondary sector and the state was happy to let them as it saved them a job. To remove religion from these schools would be kicking them in the teeth for doing a good job. If you don’t want religion in schools build your own, don’t think you can bully the ones in existence founded on a catholic ethos to change just because you don’t like it!

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    • Maybe they can think of it as payback for the countless people the Catholic orders tortured and abused over the years. I didn’t want to bring that up, but if you talk about not wanting to upset the church its a valid point

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    • There are more religious orders in education in Ireland than those that have cases of abuse brought against them. Lay teachers, swimming instructors, sports coaches, parents, uncles, grandfathers, neighbours abused too. I don’t think your point is relevant in this discussion. Schools set up by religious not only educated but in many cases fed and nurtured children. They gave many children a safe haven away from unstable homes. Education in Ireland would have been a long time coming without them.

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    • The only reason Catholic schools (and every other religious school) were set up was to brainwash children. To imagine they have no hidden agenda is naive. At the time the state was a Catholic state and that’s why “they let them”. All religions are just superstitious nonsense so there is no “ethos”.

      Do you think it is ethical to brainwash children?

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    • Sinead, you are obviously scientifically illiterate. The ONLY solution to that is to read science books like the one I recommended. I could also recommend the original books by Darwin. Easy to read and understand.

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  • Or, how bout you chose to send your kids to a non-denominational school?

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