Social Welfare fraud in Ireland is one of the lowest in Europe. Fraudulent claims in Ireland account for less than 0.02%. When are you Irish people going to stop believing spin and instead direct your anger where its deserved, at your incompetent over paid elected leaders. Your fraudster are in government, you ignorant fools!

Facial recognition is not a perfected means of identifying an individual.
I just hope this is not another waste of tax payers Euros like the the electronic voting machines.
Reliable Biometrics to this very date are still fingerprints.

@Morgan James: Well we will soon see if you are right if this technology does what it is supposed to!

The Department of Social Protection is owed more than €343 million in welfare overpayments due to fraud.

agreed, delighted.

Stray Mutt, signatures aren’t a perfect way of identifying people either. What is wrong with making sure the right person gets the money?

@Tom, that’s a lie. Those figures were spun out by the government and they later admitted themselves it was an ‘estimation’ i.e. a lie. Do the maths, a gross exageration.

Cost of Anglo fraud to the taxpayer, 30billion!!!!! Don’t be the braindead fools they expect you to be, don’t be the fools the world consider you to be.

The level of fraud is closer to 25 million, one of the lowest in Europe (second lowest) Its is not 343 million or 600 million, both figures spun by your leaders. If you guys are stupid enough to believe everything, how can tyou expect them to ever take you seriously. Do you think any other government in the world could get away with how they walk all over you? They laugh in your faces as they enjoy some of the highest politicians salaries in the world, in a small country of 4 million people. While they destroy your lives for their banker friends. Wake up, don’t be like Tom and all the other Tom’s, stop being the dumb ignorant Paddy’s they expect you to be !!!!!!!!

http://politico.ie/social-issues/8054-the-truth-about-social-welfare-fraud.html

THE TRUTH!!!!

Sure don’t we see the faces of the people i.e bankers, politicians and the 1% that destroyed the country and they are still walking around…..jeez most are even getting pensions, people really should cop on to who the “real fraudsters and spongers” are !!

Even if the figure quoted by Politico is correct, at €25 million a year this would surely pay for itself in the medium to long term.

This is the start. You’ll be getting a card next year, compulsory.

.02% of what. give me a monetary amount. Extremely easy to draw statistics from nothing. What exactly is the amount involved?

@Morgan James: How can we know the true level of social welfare fraud if we do not have a proper means of detecting it. This new measure may, or may not, show us how high it actually is.

Doubt they will recoup much for this. The vast majority of fraudulant claims I think probably relate to claiming things your shouldnt be entitled to, like rent supplement if your rent is too high, claiming benefit when your worker under the counter, failing to disclose you live with a partner, feigning illness for disability payments. The number of claiming under multiple identities I would guess is very small indeed.

Fraud at the bottom is tackled yes but what about the top, 120,000 emigrated so far, how many bankers even seen a prison cell yet? = 0. Says it all really

What happens if you are an identical twin, can I claim twice or maybe i will I be denied because my twin has already claimed.

What a consistently patronising gom Morgan James is. If this saves anywhere near €25m a year then it will be most welcome, period. Don’t be trying to muddy the waters, clown.

What a fool if you buy your own dribble !

Right on, Morgan!!

What all these knee-jerk Tea Party idiots don’t know, because it’s kept under wraps, is that corporate welfare fraud costs the state far more than poor people not admitting the odd nixer.

Companies employing people on faked ‘contracts for service’ pay no employers’ PRSI contributions, thus cheating the state, and deprive those employees of many social welfare entitlements such as state pension, holiday pay, and sickness benefits.

There is a social welfare branch devoted to this sort of thing, called SCOPE Section — but it does not publicise its activities nor conduct fraud campaigns which might enlighten the cheated workers.

Anyone out there working to a boss, in the company’s premises, on regular hours — but given a self-employed contractor’s contract, with no paid holidays, PRSI, etc? Well, you are actually an employee and should be under the PRSI net, so go to SW and set outs your case.

By the way, if you have been in the job for any length of time and you are afraid you may be liable for all that unpaid PRSI — REJOICE and do not fear. Your employer will have to pay your back contributions as well as their own.

Morgan how true are those words the people of this country motto is keep as close to a td and the less pain you will feel ,how wrong they are they will end up on their knees at some point like the rest of us.two laws in this country one for the big boys and another for us ,a blanket guarantee to the banks which sank us and not one screed of evidence as to what happened plus no investigation.

The travellers will dislike this..

A drop in the ocean of the banking fraud carried out every year in this state. Tax the IFSC first then the poor.

I might just sneak in here and ask that commentors on this particular thread refrain from making crass generalisations about national or ethnic groups.

At last it will stop career welfare recipients fraudulently claiming.
They mitebe small in numbers and statistics, but fraud is fraud and it will save the state money over the years that these people are stealing that could go towards vital services.
If your not doing anything wrong you have no need to worry.

Truly, you guys are hilarious. Never witnessed a nation so collectively susceptible to political spin. Political spin creates soft targets thereby diverting attention away from targets of the mobile variety. Facial recognition is a fantastic idea, however, the societal costs associated with the endemic corruption that personifies irish politics can only be described as a most belligerent form of political recalcitrance. That malignant presence exists on a scale on this sad little island that frankly beggars belief.

The collective Irish mind will continue to permit those that have robbed and continue to rob our state of billions. We appear to have the nuts required to go after the small fry and this is as it should be, however we never have, nor are we likely ever to have the spine required to bring those to account that have to date been insulated by a system designed to effectively cover up the indiscretions of those residing at the top end.

The sooner you lot wake up to the reality of what has and continues to take place at the highest levels of our society the better for all concerned.

Diarmaid
wise words its bad and degrading enought claiming the dole, without being made to feel like a criminal.
it should be a welcomed move

But it’s the fault of those who decide to treat them this way. Most are legitimate cases, in this economic weather, by quite a margin. You won’t make those malicious right wing attitudes go away.

Surely constantly drip feeding the media these stories and press releases on fruad is actually driving up the idea that people on benefits are near criminals.

Will it actually do that though? Seems to be targeted at making sure that AB is the same AB who turned up last time, rather than that AB is not also CD, EF and GH.

I would think the system is designed to ‘notice’ that AB has identical facial features to CD, EF and GH, which perhaps warrants further investigation…

i disliked it and I don’t claim any welfare – how about that!

I dislike it because it seems like a waste of money and effort and I’m sceptical how much fraud it’ll really crack down on. In general I don’t like the idea of being “on file” like that either.

Eh Do you hold a passport, drivers license, age card?? There is already a file so to speak in some shape or form as such

joe
I dislike it and do not avail of social welfare.
I find the whole idea abhorrent and contrary to natural Law.

The bank account works well if one is on JobBridge. It is a waste of time for everyone involved if you have to take time off what is effectively a job to sign on in person (if someone is working full time on JobBridge the chance that they are scamming the system is fairly low).

Finally the nub of the problem. You have a drivers license number, a passport number, a PPS number. None interacts with the other.
You should be able to key in a PPS number and up pops the relevant info for the relevant service, whether its revenue, SW, HSE. I should not require three different patient numbers to see three different results from three different hospitals of the same HSE.
The problem is that everything should be linked to your passport, with your PPS number as your passport number.
This will reduce fraud, yes, but it just makes it even more inefficient, requiring more people administer the same service.

@James – Thats their intention.

Hold on!!!
Why not just tattoo the social security number into your forehead or better still, implant a chip in your cheek, maybe add a GPS chip to that for security. It won’t be long before its a criminal offence NOT to cary your id card, police state or what?!?

My thoughts too Dave Grant, but sure look at every comment here,, all bar one or two thinks its just a fab idea. And sadly I suspect most woudn’t object to having a national ID card that they have to carry at all times too.

Where is the belief that all are innocent until proven guilty ?
There is dangerous work afoot.

The Civil Liberties Crowd were completely opposed to a National Identity card and that’s why the last Government rolled out separate cards for each Public Service.

Usual gibberish from you Eileen

Eight hundred thousand bogus Non Resident Accounts!
Four hundred thousand tax evaders with the Household Charge.
Statistically one would have to be an idiot to believe that the populous would behave honestly when controls were lax or non existent.

@james, recently got a phone call from the hse here, looking to verify my daughters address, it was an address i had 4 years ago, to the best of my knowledge had changed every known address to my current, her brother was mysteriously was at the most recent address,and they are twins, go figure?

So we’ve to trust the state. We have to hand over our biological data to the state. The Irish state cannot be trusted given its history to date. It will start with social welfare then, social media, work permits, EU sceptics, political dissent flagging. Gilmore, Rabbite and all the former workers party brigade will live it.

Laura, sounds familiar!
A degree of common sense is required, if you change your address for the HSE, it should automatically changed for SW, revenue, whatever other state service.
In the HSE, we rely on a good history from the patient. We can’t access info of the same patient from a GP, or another hospital. Sometimes this info is more important as it allows us to see if the patient has presented with a similar condition at another hospital, it allows us to reduce the number of duplicate tests as we can access the most recent results, it allows us to identify certain illnesses a lot quicker as previous data might already exist, it allows us to reduce the amount of admin we have to get through, reduces our time wasted on telephones, emails to other hospitals, GP’s, services.
Rant definitely over!

Sean, the state owns more information about you than you ever will! Revenue, SW, HSE, DoH, DoEd….!

So hand over more? Biological data is the final straw. If you’re happy with state minions holding biometric data on its citizens then I’ve no argument with you. The mindset of our political class was exposed this week with proposals to introduce Chinese style censorship of social media.

Oh Dear Sean
Back to the wards quick! Your meds need to be increased!

That is currently the situation in several EU countries which wouldn’t be considered police states!

@ James, the strange thing is they have re-registered for GP visit cards, for their developmental checkup and their child benefit in new addresses, so i had assumed that the hospitals would get it too as it was updated everywhere else lol

The state already has your biometric if you have a current passport.

Laura, yup! Welcome to HSE!

Dave OShea
Is that comment all you have to offer ?
Says more about you than it does me. :)

Yup

I bet it doesn’t…… Hello… So many people are receiving welfare payments because there is a financial crisis.. or did you miss that bit/

If they put cameras in airports at the passport control desk to tie into this system it would great, could rule out fraudulent claims by non residents.

Fingerprinting is for crooks not for people on social welfare ! Innocent until proven guilty !

You”ve not been through US immigration in the last 10 years. Fingerprints taken before you enter the country. Otherwise get back on the plane and go home.

Eileen
Where have you been. Facial recognition is used everywhere today without any suggestion you might be guilty of an offence. Try and get through Heathrow Airport on a dodgy passport photograph and see what happens. Many large Organisations use it for entry and exit doors to their buildings and banks use it extensively.

Eileen, how about “the innocent have nothing to fear?” It’s funny how its always the same small group of people who take issue with schemes like this. They can take my pic, scan my prints, I don’t care. I’ve never done anything illegal. See how that works?

Better not fcuk up while nixering as a butcher so..

Err what’s your problem Eileen? Been to America lately? Yup they take your fingerprints on arrival-shocking isn’t it? Travel to the Channel Islands and they take your picture before you even get through check in, sorry now but if this card cuts even 1 fraudulent claimant I will be happy.

No , I have never been to America , nor do i have any desire to visit there . Channel Islands the same , No desire to be there. I do have a passport . I am not in any way a law breaker or criminal. I do not understand any one of you wanting to give up your personal freedoms so easily and at the drop of a hat.
Mick My palm print and staff number was necessary for me to access all areas in my place of work . That I had no problem with .I do however have a huge problem with the government any government making citizens prisoners of their own state. But you all know what you are dragging us into . And I dread the future if this is the type of STATE you want us to live in . I have nothing to hide , nothing to be ashamed of that is why I use my own name here. I will and I can stand over my statements and beliefs.

Man on the street with all your talk why do you not use your real name

Lots of companies use fingerprint recognition for their employee clock in system.
Some Schools use it too.

I think the face recognition to collect benefits is a good idea and will reduce fraud, especially from one group of people who have 3 or 4 generations of Danny,paady, mickey collecting social welfare.

If you don’t like this state you are free to move to another state.

”nellysroom”
Why should you tell any Irish Citizen to move on if they don’t like it here ?
What or who gives you that authority or right to come out with such a statement . This is what is wrong with this country and people will have to wake up to it very quickly . They have bullies in well placed jobs and positions who come out with crappy comments like this one ” if you don’t like it here move on” .Comments like this designed and used to make people feel inadequate and inferior .Just like in the school yard.
Well ‘nellysroom’ I ain’t going anywhere. I will not be shut up or shouted down.and there is nothing you can do about it … So there … :) :) :)

That’s fine Eileen just don’t expect my taxes to pay for multiple or fraudulent social welfare claims.

Social welfare should go to people who legitimately need it. People claiming benefits when they should not are not only stealing from the tax payer they’re also stealing from genuine hardship cases.

Yes Eileen, there are bullies in all areas of society, but it isn’t Nellysroom who is having a rant…..

Cara
What is your point ?

My point is that your reply to Nellysrooms was very agressive and there was no need for it.

Cara
I certainly was not being aggressive to nellysroom or to any one else in my replies . However I will stand up for my civil liberties and i will not be told to move on if I do not like it here . I am an Irish woman first and foremost I love being Irish it is not perfect .But I balk at the Idea that anyone can have the idea that they can tell me to move on if I do not like it here….
I am not aggressive .
Cara, maybe you are being over sensitive ?

@ Cara – Why are you trying to divert the focus of the argument Eileen is trying to make? Hers was not an ad-hominem argument whereas yours quite clearly is. She makes a very valid point – which is shared by most civil liberties groups in the world.

Nellysroom
I pay my taxes too and always have. :)

Banking Fraud ? Fraudulent loans to bankers and their mates?
€64,000,000,000 (Sixty four Billion Euros ) worth of pay offs…
Stephen Church. bless your innocence.

Well said Vincent.
But I really do not think facial recognition or even fingerprinting as some one has suggested is a right step forward. If it applies to one it should apply to all.

It will work perfectly , because it is not our bunch of mullahs organising it .
They are just doing as they are told.

Laura,Don’t be like that its the TDs and Senators that are on the easy money.

now thats a different story…but why should single parents claim single parents allowance if they not single? they get rent allwance and can work und er 20hours without been taxed while the ot hand er is either getting a wage or full payment for themselves

Laura
You sound a tad bitter there . Not all single parents are mothers . and not all single parents are on social welfare or get rent allowances . Maybe you should be a little more supportive and less bitter for those of us not as ‘good’ as you !

@ Eileen
what have I to be jealous about?? ive nothing against single parents living on their own but im against the way that most have their partner living with them claiming RA they hsve, their medical card and their own money as well as working part time and getting family income supplement and help towards a creche and their partners will have either a wage or their full money this is fraud and this is what this article id about.me and my partner work full time we do whats best for our children and are honest they should too

laura
IF you have proof of this ….then report them . STAND up and DO something about it .
Report them Simples!
Because if you know about it and do nothing then you too are part of the problem.
You will feel better too I imagine . Doing your bit for the State and I hear they give rewards too.

@ Eileen
just reading down through all ur comments there u sound very against this..what reward do u get for reporting them? now mayhe they can invest money on new ways to stop this as well

Laura
Yes I am very much against this I.D. card . It is in my opinion a serious breach of our collective civil liberties.
I am against fraud . I do not condone criminality.
However I am also not happy that our government or any future government have us on lists or files of a type of big brother 1984 scenario.
Yes we may have birthcerts , passports , work i.d.s, Bus passes , student cards, points reward cards for certain shops, medical cards , dps cards , doctors visit cards or a combination of same , and that is fair enough and acceptable and necessary . This new ID card goes too far IMO and should be resisted at all costs .It will be like a cold war Gulag…
As for rewards ? That is something I heard . I do not know it for a fact.
I have , in the last 12 months gone through a huge change in my attitude and outlook on so much I am still trying to get used to it.But I used to think all this state control was a good thing and we would have more freedom . Today Thanks to Phil Hogan and his introduction of the hhc , and to Leo veradkars lies and to Shatter’s ineptitude,Rabbittes u turns and Kenny’s snide and sneering attitude to ALL OF US you too Laura I have had to rethink my loyalties . My loyalty is with you and me and every other ordinary individual in this country who are being hammered daily into poverty and destitution…Fuel poverty, food poverty etc.,
Apologies for going on a bit but I am very passionate about this.
Have a good day and I wish you and yours a safe and blessed new year.

Oh God
I really believe that people in pyjamas should not be served ….anywhere.
Horrible habit.

100% Tony this is what I wrote above. This system can only catch small number of fraudulent claims based on faked identity, but is useless for detecting fraudulent claims based on false information / state of the person. As I sad if this camera system is able to save at least couple million a year then it’s still worthwhile exercise, but come on, anybody who thinks it will put an end to welfare fraud must be high in the clouds.

As Con Cake said the idea stinks and it is a National Identity Card by stealth.

And what would be the big problem with a national identity card if you had nothing to hide?

Mattoid
Well if you don;t know , you can;t be told .

Humour me Eileen

Mattoid, have you ever heard of civil liberties, not wanting to hold an ID card that contains ever bit of information about you has nothing to do with having something to hide, I have nothing to hide and dont want to hold one. National ID cards are not about security, or cutting fraud, this would be very unlikely. The real question is where does this end and what is the true purpose? It simply hands over more control and power to government and creates a big brother society. Also what happens if you are not holding your card one night out on the town and in the unlikely event you are stopped, is that a criminal offence? Is your bank card or driver license not enough to establish your identity? ID cards are just another step towards a police state, the very thought of them is a trespass on our liberties, if you are willing to agree to an ID card, what next, what happens when they decide that the ID card will be essential to all your normal daily activities, such as work, shopping, travel on buses or trains, what happens when they decide that a ban can be introduced via your ID card by way of some sanction for a minor misdemeanor, say been pissed on a Friday night and singing in a pub! This is the concern I have, the agenda is never as clear cut as we think, and if we are willing to relinquish on one civil liberty then what stops them infringing on them in the future again when the time is right, throwing your willingness right back in your face.

Eileen humour me and tell me what your problem would be with an ID card? If you have nothing to hide it should be welcomed.

Sorry Sinead, but that does sound a bit, well, paranoid.

Just to give an example why the argument “If you have nothing to hide…” is rubbish.
I’ll take Mattoid as an example. Will you answer these questions to us if you think you have nothing to hide Mattoid?

Why don’t you use your real full name?
When was the last time you had sex, with who and what exactly;y did you do?
What is you history of your GP visits over the last year?
Have you ever been in convicted or were you ever suspected of something?
What is the history of your family’s illnesses. Are there any genetic conditions you can tell us about?
Where do you live, who is your partner, do you have children and if so what is their name?

@Jeroen
The state already knows where I live, who my partner is, what my children’s names are, whether I have a criminal record (no), where I work, how much I earn, how much tax I pay, what car I drive, what serious illnesses I suffer from (none thankfully) etc. etc.

I don’t think they know where and when I last had sex, but I wouldn’t think it’ll be obligatory to update my national identity card three or four times a week with that information either.

What’s your point?

Mattoid
You still do not use your real name
I am not interested and I am not asking you who you are BUT
ASK YOURSELF why it is you do not use your true name and then transfer that answer to why this I.D. card is a wrong idea.

Eileen, I have several reasons why I choose to post under a pseudonym, for example potential employers who may hold opposing political views etc..
I can’t really see the parallels between that and an ID card…

Mattoid
As I have already said above ^^^ If you dont already know then you can not be told .

Is that the best you can do Eileen?

@ Mattoid: My point is that whoever says that they don’t have anything to hide, in reality they always have something to hide. Like you said, you don’t disclose your real name because of potential employers with different political views. That is a a valid reason in my opinion. I wanted to make it clear that some things about ourselves we want to keep private.

You said that the government already knows a lot of things about you and indeed they do, but if you have nothing to hide, why not tell the readers of the Journal as well?

Mattoid
I would only be repeating myself to you all over again.
However I am really interested and would love to know why you are so keen on this type of id card for all citizens. I would like any facts figures or links you may have as it would add to our debate .

Being a bit thick I have asked you to spell it out for me (preferably in simple coherent terms) but so far you have been unable or unwilling to do that…

Eileen. My life is an open book, I have absolutely nothing to hide so have no fear nor problem with an ID card. Indeed I would welcome having one if it would streamline services I wish to avail of. Europeans have carried ID cards without any problems for years and personally I think carrying around your passport as means of identification is bothersome as the loss of a passport is expensive to replace.

@Jeroem
With respect, your argument is a bit nonsensical unless you are suggesting that information like your sex life, your political persuasion, your comments on various online forums etc. will all be stored on your ID card.

mcbab
Frankly I am surprised that the journal still allows ‘mcbab’ to comment in the journal after that awful nasty uncalled for attack on the picture of an innocent child last May . So I will again tell you I do not talk to you. Have a nice day.

mattoid
it may not require exact details of your sex life BUT it may require you to divulge your sexual orientation, or your religion, etc…

……Political beliefs, …..

My goodness Eileen. Your above comment is a perfect example why people post anonymously on here! You are one scary dude!

Folks, please, let’s not get into a personal slagging match… keep your discussion to the proposals at hand.

Gavan
I have already said I would not interact with mcbab . You removed that comment YET here mcbab is again accusing ME of being scarey and of being a dude .I am not scarey or rude. I am a woman not a dude .I do not want that ID to approach me with comments . Now I will find that link Where mcbab passed nasty comments about a child in a photo last May and maybe then you will remove or prevent this one id from posting again . Thank You Gavan, as always a gentleman :)

Exactly Seamus
Yhey should be going after the real crooks. But that would not suit their agenda at all now !

Well at least the tax dodger earns his money!

Eileen
When you’re wealthy you can afford a good accountant to avail of all the appropriate deductions. Why would you need to cheat or dodge?

John F: How do you know he “earns” it? It’s irrelevant if he costs the state and the economy more than he’s worth. If you’re measuring up how much someone is hurting, there is no contest.

You can do both.

Laura,If you was a single mum any extra money you can save or get from your partner who you didn’t declare goes on the children.Please don’t let the children suffer.

your right the children shouldn’t have to suffer but these are the people that are scamming the system as well.

Maggie
Thanks for that link . it makes interesting reading and comparisons.

Ya but how much of social welfare fraud actually relates to claiming under another identity, Surely the majority is to do with claiming when you are working a cash job. Claiming for payments that you are not entitled to (like failing to disclose you are living with a partner, failing to disclose saving etc during the means test, feigning injury for disability payments. This card does absolutely nothing about any of those. This is a national identity card by stealth

Are you a rozzer?

Mara, as many people said earlier, face detection technology can only target small amount of fraud claims, as bulk of them is not based on false / double identity, but on false claim and condition.
But fair enough, it’s perhaps better than nothing.

Re child benefit going abroad for children who don’t live hear, while I tend to agree with you then this is unfortunately against EU principle of free work and movement and equal employment and social rights conditions of EU people. This is very unlikely to change.
However, on the second hand think about that: if those children were living here and state will have to provide for couple thousand more school places, medical services, etc. would that be really cheaper than paying that child benefit and having them abroad? I don’t think so, think about it.
Also ultimately those people work in Ireland and pay taxes here, so why would their children be discriminated even if not living here. This was sort of idea of EU in first place – Europe, one country.

I like this legend too, but now to be more realistic, quick check:

- cheapest return flight on Ryanair to any Eastern Europe (I assume this is what you are referring to) for one person with no luggage about 100 EUR, I mean this is really cheapest possible, if you hit December or any summer month, etc. it will be more likely in region of 200 for the same
- you won’t catch return on same day (Ryan flies straight back), so you need some food and accommodation
- perhaps taxi, maybe bus ticket from the airport, maybe phone call..?

OK, so if you are lucky (and have free bed somewhere) you may spend about 150 – 200 EUR for your trip (and more in summer and around Holidays)

Now all that once per week to collect your money – which could be max. 188 EUR and probably less?
Then again once per month to sign in?

Do I have it correctly so far?
Yep, seems to me like 100% business, fly in to collect something that won’t even cover the trip..

Funny enough how many people still believe in these stories, that maybe someone, somewhere did once or twice and they echoed across the country.

Maybe there is some “Benefit Airlines” that serves especially that purpose I’m not aware of ? :)

I don’t believe it happens very much now fizi but I think it was a problem during the boom when payments were very high and recipients could have their benefits paid directly into their bank accounts every week. So, if you were claiming childrens allowance at the same time, you could well have been receiving between 1500 and 2000 per month. You’re only required to sign on once a month and lone parents don’t have to sign on at all so it could prove very profitable. The questions arose during the Icelandic volcanic disruption when the social welfare offices began to notice how many claimants were not turning up to sign on. Genuine claimants are supposed to notify the office if they are going away so their payments are not affected. But there were masdive numbers who found themselves stranded back home who had not informed the office in advance. That was when the department stopped payments directly into accounts. It wasn’t worthwhile if you had to come back every week.

@Andrea
Urban myth I’m afraid. I bought into it myself once too, but the figures just don’t back it up:

http://debates.oireachtas.ie/dail/2010/06/17/00169.asp

@Mattoid,
Why did they stop payments directly in bank accounts around that time? It saved them so much time and hassle. I’m not saying there were thousands of people doing it but if they even discovered 50 people doing it, they would have to stop the bank payment option.

Awesome urban legend, but of course you do realise you don’t need to fly anywhere to get children benefit…as there is no in person signing for that and paid into account?

Also of course you do realise it is being paid at every first Tuesday of each month so if this was the case what you say then those flights should be considerably more expensive (hence beating purpose of collecting any money) and booked well in advance, than any other day of the week flights and there is no such correlation at all (yes I fly often so I know).

Well nothing beats good old propaganda I think :)

Ha Ha, nice one fizi :) Funny how 13 people dislike the comment. Some people just DO NOT want to know the facts..

Cuts breed racism.

I’d also like to know why I had to provide my pp no. when getting a flu jab, privately paid for in my pharmacy? I could understand the health service being curious about uptake numbers, but what business is it of theirs to nsist on the provision of identity information before it could be administered? By what right
?

Exactly, the media and government spin doctors will brush that under the carpet. This country needs another 1916 to wrestle back power from the corruption at the top.

Hah, after bit of research:

http://www.oireachtas.ie/parliament/media/housesoftheoireachtas/libraryresearch/spotlights/Spotlight_Social_Welfare_Fraud.pdf

And reads (data from 2011, should be close enough to now anyways):

“The Department of Social Protection in Ireland estimates that the level of fraud and error in the social welfare system ranges between 2.4% – 4.4% of total annual welfare expenditure.”

Now, if we assume for easy calculation that SW budget is at roughly at 20 bln, then fraudulent claims may reach 1 bln eur. Seems like quite a lot, but… camera and face detection will not resolve probably even 10% of fraudulent claims, as most of them are based not on false identity, but on false claims (lone mother, disability, cash in hand job and claiming…) etc.

Let’s be not too optimistic then that cameras will solve these issues.
Realistically they may save couple million a year using new technology, but it’s still drop in the ocean.
Worth investing though, hence good move.

You forgot to notice the “level of fraud AND error ” So part of the 2.4 – 4.4% is caused by the Dep. of Social Welfare.

Jeroen, thanks you are correct, but it only emphasises my point that fraud claims are still small compared to legit claims. They don’t specify how much is the error from this percentage provided and how much is fraud, but it can only be smaller than total number anyway.

And rightly so, no?

Innocent until proven guilty ….unless you WANT to live in a police state ? No ?

No, revenue doesn’t actually work that way! If Revenue say you didn’t pay tax, you have to prove that you did.
Usually you have a fair trial, not with revenue, and rightly so. It has to work that way, an opt out service instead of opt in. Lets face it, nobody is going to opt in to pay taxes given a choice?!?!

Eileen why Sony you just surrender ? The red thumbs have beaten you yet again!

And the red thumbs have beaten you too Michael

Michael J Collins ?
Red thumbs ?
Sure I am colour blind to that !
We are discussing a serious issue to do with the future of our state ,and you are talking about coloured thumbs….
get a grip man.

What’s the problem? If someone is entitled to the payment, they get their money. If they’re not , they don’t.

Why would anyone be against this?

If your not being racist can you provide a source for your claims that 1. Non-Irish nationals are involved in the majority of benefit fraud 2. Face recognition technology won’t work with some ethnic groups cos they all look the same.

Are you for serious!

Tom
This card is nothing to do with social Welfare fraud. It has everything to do with it being a national ID card . Police State etc

http://bigginsblog.wordpress.com/2012/11/04/shatter-determined-to-rein-in-media-with-privacy-laws/

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/dec/26/german-elderly-foreign-care-homes

Do you think these issues reported here are progressive . Look into your own heart and raise your eyes top the real issues . Please.

And finally after scrolling through all these comments, there is someone who thinks. I agree with your concerns Frances. What you are worried about is already happening in The Netherlands. Besides a fully functional database of all citizens there, with numbers to match cross references, they needed another database. This one will hold all the history of each citizen’s contacts with GP’s and hospitals. The company making this system is from the US and they fall under the US’s Patriot act. This means that the CIA or FBI or whichever organisation can get full access to these details. Very scary indeed.

By “politically incorrect” you obviously mean racist.
Because austerity of course breeds racism. If you want to know who is taking your money I would look to an elitist political and financial system that is taking from the masses to fortify their own privilidge. If your looking for someone to “blame” then sure you can make up whatever you like… not that I need to encourage you.

Derek
You really can not say that . You see that is being RACIST.
People are entitled to support ,it is in our constitution.
But the biggest fraud is the €64,000,000,000 sent out of this country to underpjn the banks in Germany and Europe . The Troika, IMF ,ECB, Eu, Anglo Irish, BoI, AIB, NAMA, GoldmanSachs,
Derek You shouild lift your eyes from the pavement once in a while , there is a whole other world there to see.

Give it a chance if they do nothing we give out when they try do something we give out .

At least it’s Joan Burton in charge of this and not that useless teacher reject, Phil ‘the Hulk’ Hogan.

Tim
I’m sure you love to check in after you post and I’m also sure that you get a little squeal of delight to see your name in print. BUT…..we don’t use language of that nature to describe any person whether they are a politician or not. You may recall the difficulties we have had in this country with both children and adults after persistent bullying with name calling etc over the Internet.
Well Tim, that’s what you’ve been doing and you should stop.

Around here it’s also poor taste to make jokes about other people’s mental health – especially with all the suicides people are attributing to the online bullying you refer to, yet above you were telling someone to get back to the ward for their medication..

Which is more offensive? Someone calling Phil Hogan a “reject teacher” or nicknaming him “The Hulk” (perhaps referring to anger issues and / or his surname) or to make insinuations about a commenters mental health – which also has implications on those who actually have mental health issues..

Hello Mr Kettle, meet our friend, the Pot.

Shanti
What are you on? About.

Shanti
I went back to see the comment and have considered your viewpoint but have come to the conclusion that when someone posts something that has little meaning or is nonsensical for a simple reason such as the bouncing 46a bus they are sitting on while trying to type something meaningful is a useful opportunity for a comment on their mental status in an obvious humorous manner.
Are you suggesting that psychology and gynaecology and proctology comments offered in a funny way are out?
Shanti come on………….

Well you took another commenter to task over his use of swear words and making “populist comments” on the thread about mental health funds.. As though you were in a position to tell him what he could and could not say..

Then you make a comment that could be taken to be either a) a personal attack on a commenter regarding their mental health status, or b) a comment making fun of those with mental health problems..

Merely pointing out the hypocrisy, I’m sorry I had to spell it out for you..

yes . Sent there by fraudulent bankers and corrupt politicians too.

Paid by direct debit? By bank transfer you mean?
Also how that suppose to help fraud? It probably would be even easier to scam them, as you wouldn’t even need to turn up in person for collection…
And getting bank account is so easy for almost everyone, utility bill does not even have to be in your name (can be landlords for example), can’t see how your proposal fights the issue to be honest…

Can’t set up bank account without both photo ID and utility bill in name of ID holder. Try open a bank account without this. If you can a great many fraudsters would love your advice. For anyone else to do so is in breach of the money laundering act. Think that you do not know what you are talking about?

Theresa, banks offer range of validation options as suitable proof of address and once you have your ID fine (best is passport), then as the other document can serve not just utility bill with your name.
Employers letter, revenue letter, council letter… and more. bank to bank is different, but you get the idea. And yes I know what I am talking about – confirmed. Thanks.

If you have employers letter then surely you are not claiming the dole. If you have a council letter then effectively that is the same as a utility letter. So what is your point. You cannot live in two council premises with the same pps no. Can’t see what your argument is? Still think you are believing in street myths unless you actually work in a bank!!

Theresa, OK, but even so, what valid bank account has to do with social welfare fraud. You may have valid address, valid bank, everything perfectly valid and still be a fraudster. Say you worked a job, etc. Then you quit it and do cash in hand carpentry with your uncle – officially unemployed and taking up unemployment benefit.
Just an example, you know. Your solution probably works against having same person double identity (or couple), but does not work for someone who has one identity but still scams the system. have a good night.

Money used to go directly into bank account but now, in my case anyway, it must be collected and signed for in person at my designated post office. Seems odd that children’s allowance still gets transferred into my account though. Different departments with different protocols?

Deirdre: because unemployment benefit is aimed as temporary only measure and therefore having signed / collected in person at intervals somehow helps people who would totally scam it otherwise (living in Costa Del Sol having Irish benefit paid in, classic!).
Then Children Benefit is not based on temporary assumption (well, you don’t have your children just for 6 months right) but on permanent basis of having a child and unless there is some serious circumstances involved – this state is not changing for anybody.
Hence different payout methods I suppose.

Great idea, I would like to know the changes of you dying of a certain disease and I am sure your health insurer would like to know.

Nil I would say as it would have been incorporated into the croke park agrmt .

There is maybe one good thing in this and I just thought of it when I saw your comment and it is this . Errant fathers , you know the one s, who do not support their children will find it harder to hide and lie as they do through the family law courts.Here is hoping anyway.

Those lads in the pub sure do spend a lot of time there for people on the dole.

Thank You Derek.
Straight and to the point . BUT they wont listen , they wont check things out , THEY wont look up to the light and see what i9s happening above their heads . They are all scrabbling for marbles.

Well, if they actually asked to see it when you sign on I’m sure it would be good enough, but in my experience they never did..

would it not be easier for them to stamp the passports on arrival and departure rather than filling all the passport full of dole stamps, but the passport must ne presented when signing on?

How to recognise a racist:

1. “I am not a racist…”
2. Frequent use of the words fact, a friend of mine, I know someone who, they all look the same,

Tough shit paddy. You do know you are allowed to go on holiday. Just tell them the dates of flying in and out and your money is safe.

On the dole…and often on holidays? You are what’s wrong with this country Brian!

lucky u im in full time employment pay a mortgage and can barely afford a holiday once a year think ill join the dole

I recall when sugning on some time ago that the guy in front of me was outraged when he was told was that his dole would be paid when he came back and not in advance. He asked the girl behind the desk what he was supposed to do for spending money!!

Don’t feed the trolls?

I think the sarcasm was lost there somehow Brian H :)

It would appear that a good many people on this website are oblivious to the fact that a form of photo ID is required throughout Europe. Regardless of whether you live within the EU photo ID is required. Please be aware that all individuals will require in the future to hold some form of photographic ID and that will become a way of life in much the same way as holding a photographic driving licence.

Theresa
That is in Europe , we are just an island of its west coast .
What is good for the goose is not always good for the gander.

DNA tests as they must all be criminals too.

Yeah they can but what about when a claimant walks into a social welfare office in the next town over but using a different name?

”using a different name”?? haha don’t be silly!

I have to admit Im a little confused.. In the short time I was claiming a partial payment I brought my passport with me every time and was never asked for it..

Surely if they just asked to see your ID it would be cheaper?

So Im one of these people that is on Social Welfare (not by choice) and I actually got one of these cards a few weeks ago. Didn’t have passport/DL licence when I got called in for getting it set up. Had to be interviewed to make sure I was who I said I was. Very long and in depth…took about 40. Had no problem at all doing it. Have had to use it twice since I got it and there may as well have been no picture on it because the person in the post office didnt even look at either time….

Niamh
exactly why we are saying this card has nothing to do with fraudulent claims . You have just proved it . WHAT is the card for so ?

I asked what it was for and I was tod that its because Social Welfare and revenue data bases are messed up, they have names with different addresses and different dates of birth that needed to be fixed. Oh and to stop fraud! (*note…all my details were correct… not a fraudster!!!)

Joe
Wasn’t that what the nazis did in work/concentration camps ? Altho not as sophisticated

No recognition, no money! Thats the whole idea behind the database

Facial recognition works by measuring distances between your eyes, nose and mouth , its pretty hard to beat even with plastic surgery

@Stephen. I wish it was that simple. The reality is very different. Consistent centroid analysis and perspective distortion add to the mix towards facial recognition being unreliable. The problem is that the images are being captured in 2d rather than in 3d which would offer the analysis your talking about.

You are correct Niall. However, the initial picture is for a data-base, which means that the picture won’t be taken every year. So, If you grow a beard in the interim that won’t be a problem because it will relate to other pictures, i.e. passport, driving licence etc and even if they don’t have a beard or mark on them, the signature will suffice.

One other thing, I don’t know why so many people voted you down, I think you had one of the best comments.

If anyone would like to know more about all this, look at my reply to Cathy Dalton.

many thanks Niall,

John.

Yes, you have presumed correctly Cathy.

Any new claims will have a photo associated with them and the software will be able to detect whether the same image is already in use elsewhere in the system. Apparently, they will be able to cross check against driving licenses and passports etc.

…This leads to the next point. It will be probably soon that many people will receive the Radio Frequency Idendtity Chip. It’s just a matter of time really. By the way, I won’t receive it.