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Dublin: 14 °C Thursday 20 June, 2013

ULA to force Dáil vote on burning Anglo bondholders

A motion being debated this evening and tomorrow would see the State back out of repaying bonds and promissory notes.

People Before Profit TD Joan Collins will this evening argue the case for burning all remaining bondholders in Anglo Irish Bank.
People Before Profit TD Joan Collins will this evening argue the case for burning all remaining bondholders in Anglo Irish Bank.
Image: Sasko Lazarov/Photocall Ireland

THE UNITED LEFT ALLIANCE is to force a Dáil vote tomorrow evening on whether the State should repay the unsecured bondholders of Anglo Irish Bank.

A motion has been tabled by the five-member group, backed by the other 11 members of the independent technical group, which would force the government not to repay obligations worth up to €50 billion.

The motion includes an instruction not to repay the €1.25 billion unsecured bond issued by Anglo which matures tomorrow, or any further payments to bondholders in Anglo, now the Irish Bank Resolution Corporation.

It also orders the government not to pay up for any of the promissory notes issued by the State to Anglo, which are due to begin maturing in March of this year.

Those promissory notes – a form of IOU issued by the government to Anglo so that it could meet its immediate obligations in the last few years – are set to cost the government over €3 billion, plus interest, each year for at least 15 years.

People Before Profit TD for Dublin South Central, Joan Collins, said she did not expect the motion to be carried – anticipating that it would be “trampled down” by the government’s majority – but that it had been tabled to raise the issue in the Dáil.

“The people who bought these bonds bought them at a 50-to-80 per cent discount, and they’re being repaid in full. It’s an absolute outrage that they’re getting the full payment,” she told TheJournal.ie.

That’s money that could be used for overturning the cuts in health, education and other areas… we cannot understand why this is happening, when at the same time the government are introducing huge austerity.

The government is likely to table an amendment to the motion, in order to water down its criticism of the government, in order to avoid a straightforward vote on whether to honour the outstanding Anglo bonds.

Debate on the motion is to begin this evening at 7:30pm, with 90 minutes of debates this evening and a further 90 minutes’ tomorrow.

The ULA’s motion in full

That Dáil Éireann:

notes that:

— the Government intends to pay €1,250 million to unsecured Anglo Irish Bank bondholders on 25th January, 2012;
— these bondholders are anonymous speculators, many of whom bought Anglo Irish Bank bonds at between 50% and 80% discount and who stand to make huge profits if they are paid full face value for the bonds;
— the Government intends to make a payment of €3,100 million on a promissory note for the Anglo Irish Bank/Irish Nationwide Building Society (INBS) debt on 31st March, and that promissory note payments to the value of €3,100 million will be made every year until 2023, with further payments due after that date also;
— Anglo Irish Bank/INBS payments will reach at least €47,000 million by 2031, with future related borrowing and interest charges bringing the possible total cost of the Anglo Irish Bank bail-out to approximately €85,000 million;
— the Government plans to raise up to €1,200 million per year by 2015 through household and water taxes, deepening the impoverishment of ordinary people – and especially the unemployed and low paid; and
— while payments to un-named bondholders are prioritised, the Government plans to cut thousands of jobs in the health service, to close hundreds of nursing home beds, to cut 3.5% from education spending over the next three years, and to cut €475 million from welfare spending this year; and

resolves that the Government:
— shall not make the Anglo Irish Bank bond payment on 25th January, 2012;
— shall not make any further payments to Anglo Irish Bank bondholders; and
— shall not pay the promissory notes for the Anglo Irish Bank/INBS debt on 31st March, 2012 and shall not make any such payments in the future.

Signed by: Joan Collins, Richard Boyd Barrett, Clare Daly, Seamus Healy, Joe Higgins, Stephen S. Donnelly, Luke ‘Ming’ Flanagan, Tom Fleming, John Halligan, Finian McGrath, Mattie McGrath, Catherine Murphy, Maureen O’Sullivan, Thomas Pringle, Shane Ross, Mick Wallace.

Read: ECB affirms: Investors won’t lend to you if you burn bondholders

More: Protesters descend on former Anglo Irish Banks in Galway and Dublin

Poll: Should we repay the Anglo bondholders?

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Comments (79 Comments)

  • Down with this sort of thing. The reason we have 3.6bn of cuts is to pay these people who took a gamble. People in mental health are being screwed, people on trolleys are being screwed, people in nursing homes are being screwed, people in DEIS schools are being screwed. It is disgusting, disgraceful and absolutely unmoral.

    Reply
  • Any chance the journal can let us know which way TDs voted after the motion has been voted on.Thanks.

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  • Wow, look at that, some actual democracy in Ireland, so that’s what it looks like.

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  • Of course it should be voted on in the Dail. Thats where we find out what our TD’s actually stand for as individuals

    In matters of this importance to the people of Ireland and the next couple of generations yet unborn, it seems to me that the ‘Whip’ excuse will not wash.

    Time to settle our options for public representation in the immediate future anyway based on this choice.

    Let us see clearly what calibre of individual is running the show.

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  • If you voted for your current TD in the hope he/she would save this country some money have a look at what way they vote for this. Then consider where your vote goes next time and let them know about it.

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  • Anybody that uses the whip system to get out of something like this should indeed face the actual whip!

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  • There should be no party whip active on this vote. Time for our representatives to stand up and represent us. Yippee

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    • Rarely disagree with you Reada, and I think you’ve made an excellent point.
      If any TD votes down this motion, they either agree that the bondholders should be paid in full, or they are purely looking after they’re own interests in not wishing to be expelled from their party, or worse, both!!!
      This is an ideal time for our public representitives to do what we pay them for, represent us!!

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    • better get emailing so.

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    • I’m sending Sherlock (Labour Cork East) and Stanton (FG Cork East) an email now, stating to use the will of the people to decide, not be told what to do by the party whip. (I’ve always believed the whip to be the most undemocratic device ever to reside in Leinster House). It’s about time your local politicians starting doing what we want them to do, not what the whip tells them!

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    • I’m open to correction on this and Dail procedures were always a bit of a mystery to me. There are 166 seats in Dail Eireann with 5 members proposing this ‘motion’ with 11 almost certain to back them from the independent technical group. SF have 14 members and although there is no mention of their voting intentions in this article I would expect that there would be support from that quarter. I hope I am right about this.
      Anyway, my point is this: Lets assume that all of SF side with the independents, that’s a total of 30 votes in favour and 136 against the motion. Given the level of disgust throughout the country at the payments to unsecured bondholders what a reflection of the will of the people our parliamentary democracy provides!

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    • Oh and of course! The FFers will probably stick their hypocritical oar in…Oh! I give up!

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    • All along Peter Mathews has been against repaying bondholders in Anglo, it will be interesting to see how he votes here…

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    • @John: Fianna Fáil will be opposing this Bill… You disagree, fair enough… But how is that hypocritical? Surely, it’s the opposite. The Fianna Fáil Parliamentary Party is taking the same line it did one yr ago… While you may disagree with this, I fail to see how it’s hypocritical…
      Genuinely asking.

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    • Hello Paul.
      While I accept that FF are obliged to present an effective opposition in Government and fully accept that this is what they are doing by voting against this, and I’m delighted to hear that news.
      However, I am also mindful that FF’s performance in government and in particular the secret and clandestine meeting between The B’s Cowen and Lenihan along with various bank chiefs as well as, I believe, the Attorney General and Kevin Cardiff has sucked us into this mess.
      That, I’m afraid, along with numerous other issues of corruption, malpractice and misdeeds has rendered their actions in opposition at such variance with their deeds in Government to be beyond the very term hypocritical.

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  • The whip renders the stated purpose of parliament redundant, and ensures that real debate on what is to become or not to become law is unrecorded, behind close doors and negotiated primarily within the constraints posed by maintaining political power and ensuring those posing the greatest threat to that objectives are looked after. This payment is unjust , the ECB should not allow speculators to profit from the bonds of a private insolvent institution at the expense of citizens of a collapsed economic state facing increasing austerity. The argument that it is unjust but must be done to protect overall interests is the same argument behind the bank guarantee which rendered the state insolvent, what is unjust is ultimately unsustainable.

    The same government defending the payment, pay offensive rates of pay and conditions to a considerable amount of public sector and continue to pay completely above actual market value for professional fees to the same handful of firms relied upon during the creation of this whole disaster. (As an example NAMA restricted the tender for legal work to firms with 25 million or more in annual fees, thus ensuring that any new incumbents are unable to compete and that the work can only go to those who “advised” the government and received the lions share of state expenditure of professional fees during the celtic tiger charade). Our legal system is archaic and shrouded in the professionally irrelevant symbols and practices of a colonial past, our political system has clearly failed the citizens of this state and the rarely acknowledged fact is that even if the assumed private banking debt was removed our current account deficit (so much of which is overspent on connected elites) needs to be reduced to sustainable amounts. We either start producing our own quality goods and services and market them to where we drastically increase global demand for same or we revert back to being the poorest state in northern Europe, debating the unsustainable flash in the pan that was the celtic tiger as a historical footnote . ULA should be commended for at least putting this injustice on the parliamentary record for debate,

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  • good on ye ULA while ye are at it any chance that we can have a real investigation to what went on in these banks

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  • Well done Joan Collins and all who support burning the bondholders,its nice to see we have some sensible TD’s in Ireland.

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  • My vote for Stephen Donnelly feels like it really counts now.. so glad the ULA have the cojones to stand up to the rest of the Dail.. let the revolution begin!

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  • Email your tds stating that if they vote for this motion they will lose your vote in the next election and any referendum on the European union.

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    • They’re not getting an unified EU vote from me no matter what they do.
      I don’t think that should even be on the table, they had their chance and they royally fucked it up. time to move on.

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    • Any decision on eu is dependent on whether we pay Anglo bondholders. If they somehow grew a pair of balls and said no tomorrow than I’d believe they care about Ireland. If they agree to pay back than I’m with the ula and sinn fein no to Europe. It’s their choice either bondholders or Irish citizens

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  • I completely agree with “burning” the bond holders, I really think there is no need for us to pay out. The only concern I would have with burning the bondholders is that when we try to raise money in the bond markets that investors would not have any confidence in Irish bonds. If they have no confidence investors wont invest in Irish bonds and the ones who are prepared would look for massive coupon rates. I think that this is a real issue, people on the Journal are very left so this comment will get loads of thumbs down. Its important to take a look at the bigger picture too. Just to reiterate I think that the government should burn the bondholders!!!

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    • No Cian, I won’t thumb you down. Agreed, I am a bit on the left, and I do agree with the burning of bondholders. However, I don’t think it ought to decrease market confidence in Ireland
      Firstly, because they already have no confidence in Ireland despite all that has been done.
      Secondly, because this is not sovereign debt we are defaulting on, not even debt at all, but merely IOUs the government said it would give. This is not paying back on debt, but paying dividends and profits on ‘investors’ in Anglo Irish. If these were secured bonds, the bondholderswould have some security about getting the money, but for that security they would get a lower interest rate. Whereas, because unsecured bonds are ‘risky’, (as there is no necessity for the bonds to be paid if the debtor runs into difficulty), the bondholders expect higher interest to compensate them for the greater risk of losing all their money. But in fact, they are getting the best of both worlds from our government, who are paying them high interest on worthless bonds.

      Markets won’t get frightened if we were to burn them. In fact, many economists have been saying it is stupid we haven’t burned them already. The markets will only get more nervous, as they know we need to borrow to pay these bondholders, increasing our debt and making our situation even riskier.

      So, I hope I have dispelled any fears you might have had?

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    • Well explained & well said Ryan.

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  • Heard Enda Kenny earlier saying he doesn’t want us to be branded as defaulters. So it is all about saving face? We have no control in what the markets think of us? Already it has shown no matter we do we are still sinking. Yet Enda wants us to drown with dignity. Isn’t that just lovely Enda.

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    • I just heard him too Kevin saying we would not be known as a nation with defaulters on our foreheads or similar sh!te to the same effect.

      Enda Kenny. It is not our debt. Grow a backbone. You do not deserve the name Irishman.

      You did not win a popularity contest. You were the only man in the race the sheep thought they could trust. I am fuming. Again.

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  • Again I say target the last and 2 nd last TD in your constancy if they vote with the government. Thus is the way the message gets to the top.
    Fifty T D s and twenty senators turned up to meet a group who want to reinstate an embassy in the holy see.
    So this is the way to go.
    These guys are more afraid of losing seats then they are of the whips.
    Call and e mail them now and continue to do so. A thousand people in a constituency is enough to swing a seat.
    We don’t need 500000 on the street of course it would be massive but 1000 people haranguing the local Val Falvey will get the job done

    Reply
  • Stiglitz: Ireland’s is probably the worst model for addressing banking crisis.
    http://mobile.bloomberg.com/news/2011-02-01/iceland-proves-ireland-did-wrong-things-saving-banks-instead-of-taxpayer.html

    Reply
  • Start emailing your local TD letting him / her now how you wish them to vote on YOUR behalf! See how far that gets us!

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  • Perhaps the ULA and the technical group might agitate for a scheme to compensate shareholders in Anglo? Both this government and the previous one have trampled on the claims of shareholders, most of whom do not have the deep pockets of institutional bondholders to fund legal challenges, a fact of economic destitution being exploited by the government.

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  • Ciara 24/01/12 #

    Gremlins seem to have eaten my last comment.

    This is really just political posturing on the part of the ULA. The strength of the language they’re trying to sell the motion with (‘force’, ‘instruction’, ‘order’) is inversely proportionate to the usefulness of the motion and the likelihood of it passing. Expect it to be trampled? Know more like. Opposition motions never pass by virtue of the fact that they are opposition motions.

    Doing something is not necessarily better than doing nothing in this case. If this were anything more than a grandiose gesture the ULA and assorted independents could have at least acknowledged that this isn’t a simple case of just not paying some money. I’d rather the bondholders weren’t paid either, but the alternative to paying is reneging on the Troika deal – and where will we get the money to pay teachers, nurses and all the people on social welfare if not from the IMF/ECB when we can’t yet borrow on international markets, and our tax base has collapsed? They don’t even support a property tax, a tax on capital which is rather difficult to move out of the country and which would at least provide some of the funds needed.

    Le sigh.

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    • Very shortsighted Ciara. The IMF have no issue with us burning the bondholders. The ECB are the ones trying to protect the banks profits. Anglo bond holders are about to make a 50% plus profit from Irish tax payers tomorrow, anyone who vocally opposes this is on Irelands side in my book. The prophecies of doom being banded about by the Govt and ECB should be taken with a pinch of salt.

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    • sigh is right. you believe the hype. fact is these payments are wrong on every level and are completely in the face of republican democracy and free market capitalism. they are pure theft from the public purse to private pockets and that is all.

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    • Sigh is right. Where does this notion come from that we will be unable to source money? Someone please name me the country that has defaulted before who have not been able to source money from the markets or IMF?

      It’s not a waste of time Ciara. I’ve already email my local TD’s and told them I will be looking at how they vote and their actions will be remembered come the next general election.

      Was listening to the radio this afternoon and there was a consultant from Limerick hospital saying thanks to the vol retirement scheme set up by the HSE there will be a shortage of mid-wifes. He made the point that there is something very wrong with a society that puts banks and bond holders payments ahead of pregnant women.

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    • Thumbsmack Ciara! Apathy is dead!!!

      You must have slept through its funeral.

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    • Ciara 24/01/12 #

      I am far from apathetic.

      Say you’re all right and I’m wrong. Let’s pretend Ireland is capable of independence without a fall in (everyone’s) standard of living, and is not just a tiny (tiny) self-important cog in the machine of international capitalism. While we’re at it, let’s pretend the global financial crisis is mainly hype, and we’re not all teetering on the edge of economic ruination. So when Greece defaults on their loans, we follow suit and so do Portugal, Spain and Italy, and nothing bad happens. We burn the banks along with the bondholders and say to hell with the vagaries of international markets because, sure, they shouldn’t have lent us the money in the first place so it’s their fault. Debt problem solved. Crisis averted. Peace and prosperity returns to our land.

      Actually, this is a nice fantasy isn’t it. I think I’ll stay here, with Sinn Fein and the ULA…

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    • Ciara, you are wrong we are not talking about a sovereign debt default here we are talking about Anglo’s debt. This suggestion is not just an idea dreamt up by ULA and SF there are a lot of independent economic ‘experts’ who also say the bond holders should be burnt the only groups with their face firmly set against it is the ECB and our government. What currently is going on is that Ireland is being given funds to pay off the bond holders and european banks ‘owed’ by Anglo something close to €39 billion. We will end up paying circa €85 billion back in total for that loan when you add in the interest @ 8.6%. If we defaulted at least that €85 billion millstone would be off our necks. We cannot enter the markets currently because most of the markets know we cannot fund that kind of bill so they are looking for a higher rate of interest. It is quite possible if the ECB\EU had not forced us into covering Anglo’s debt’s we would still be in the markets. If this doesn’t change it will be many many years before Ireland recovers if at all….

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  • Ye so theres no chance of this being approved in The Dail…Fine Gael,Labour & Fianna Fail will all vote in favor & have an overall majority

    Waste of time

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    • E 24/01/12 #

      Just because it will most likely fail, primarily due to the Whip being enacted on Party TDs, doesn’t mean that such issues shouldnot be discussed and voted upon in our National Parliament. This is the place that such issues of National Importance should be discussed given the form of ‘democracy’ Ireland has today.

      If we sit silently by then nothing will change.

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    • This is the case unfortunately. Even with Fianna Fáil on board, the opposition is so small compared to the government side of the house. Indeed, it is a waste of time. I suppose they have to be seen to be taking a stand though.:-/

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    • Might be interesting to see if any lab or fg break ranks and vote against the gov

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    • Its never a waste of time to focus on, and debate alternative solutions. It will show who votes for and who votes against, and what they say. Things to be noted for the next election.

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    • Might be interesting to see if any of these Bondholders are FF, FG or Labour…

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    • Get on the phone and tell your local TD that you will not be voting for them if they vote against this motion. Do it TODAY.

      One phone call – costs you little, will make all the difference if we ALL do it.

      And if they try and tell you that nobody will lend to us again if this passes, tell them that the markets are even less likely to lend to a country that is broke.

      The markets DO NOT believe the bailout will work – our interest rate if we went to the markets tomorrow would be about 8% on 10 year bonds. This indicates that they do not see us as a safe bet to lend money to for 10 years, bailout not withstanding.

      The IMF have said we should NOT pay this. The ECB have said we must. In the absence of consensus, we MUST refuse to pay this extraordinary sum.

      Get on the phone. Today.

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  • “burning”? Will they use petrol or diesel?

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  • From anything I’ve seen of her, Joan Collins hasn’t a single brain cell between her ears. She has consistently displayed a failure to grasp anything beyond a superficial understanding of what’s going on. I don’t want to repay the banks anymore than the next man but I know we have to do it in order to be allowed back into the money markets. She has no academic achievements of note and expects that people should listen to how she thinks things should be run.

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    • Okay you tell me who has a lower interest rate on borrowing from the markets, Ireland who burned the bondholders or Iceland who saved the taxpayer? Answer: Iceland who saved the taxpayer. Study first, speak later.

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    • politicians shouldn’t be judged on their academic achievements they should be judged on their morals,integrity and hard work.Joan and the ULA are simply standing up for what they believe in.They took this stance before the General Election and are continuing it now.
      I say fair play to them.They got my vote last time and they will more than likely get it again.

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    • correction failed to burn bondholders.

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    • Reading your comment, your brain cells must be in an extreme limited supply. If ‘Academic achievements’ is anything to go by, then as an Economics student I say it makes the world of sense to burn them.

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    • Ignorant comment Ross. It doesn’t take a high IQ to know this payment is futile. Anyway I don’t like your attitude that one has to have a high level of education or speak with a D4 accent to have a worthy opinion. Snobs have no rightful place in a republic.

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  • Something that needs to be pointed out here is that while Fianna Fáil will indeed be opposing this Bill, we are the only Party to admit as such in our election manifesto last February.
    Fine Gael said “Not one more cent…” & Labour said “Frankfurt’s way or Labour’s way”…
    We ran the most honest election campaign in Irish history (& got thanked accordingly)

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  • And Karl, Iceland is not in the eurozone so you’re not comparing like with like – when you do, then come back and make smart remarks ;-)

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    • Well, looking at the way things are going, I have no hesitation in predicting we won’t be in the euro for much longer either.

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    • Greece is in the eurozone Ross and they are burning their bond holders. Why should Ireland be treated differently?

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    • Its not smart remarks, its a sensible statement. Furthermore if you want to be as so childish to nitpick every little thing then lets bring you to Slovakia who are in the euro and didn’t rescue their banks.

      3.3% Growth, Highest credit rating AAA and 34.6% debt to GDP.

      Now, would you rather their position or ours? Both economies reliant on FDI.

      Shouldn’t take you too long.

      Reply
    • @karl. Just wondering where you got your figures from? Slovakia is not, and has never been, AAA rated. A+ is it’s current rating, 4 notches below AAA.

      Also, while Slovakia are growing, their total GDP is approx 28%less than ours, even with a population of 1million extra people.

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    • Your actually correct there Kiaran. In fact, I don’t think you can choose a eurozone country as a good example, as we are all united in a big fiscal mess.
      But in terms of not paying back the bondholders (which is what we are discussing here), it makes absolutely no difference whether or not we are in the euro. For all we know, the bondholder could be in Germany, USA, Japan or Mars. It makes no difference to us, as it will cost the same for us to pay them, be it in Euro or Punts. So Ross can say we are comparing to different countries, but the rules of economics are the same. Refuse to pay, and you will have less liabilities.
      I am not saying things will be sweet and merry if we refuse to pay, but no bomb will go off.

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  • Those things are important but so is formulating a cohesive plan to put forward legislation to make a country work – something which an academic background certainly helps with. Somebody without an understanding of economics should not be heard in a debate on the country’s economy.

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    • Well, I wouldn’t claim to be a Bertie Ahern or Charlie Mccreevy, but with my own limited ‘academic’ attainment of Economics I think her argument is perfectly sound. It reduces our GDP/Debt ratio, making us less likely to dfault on sovereign debt, and therefore instilling confidence in the markets. The ECB doesn’t want them burned because it would hurt their customers, but even the IMF have said we need to look at the option.

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    • Are you serious? Its precisely those people with economic and academic backgrounds that got us into this mess. It is time for the ordinary man to be heard, they mightn’t have a degree in economics but they have morals and they know right from wrong.

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    • Exactly we shouldnt be listening to noonan as he is a teacher nothing to do with finance! Bunch of teachers running d country! Its a joke. Const gurdiva now he is someone we should be listenin to: as he says, BURN D BONDHOLDERS

      Reply
    • OMG!.. And I guess we don’t deserve the right to vote either? !!

      Reply
    • Ciaro 24/01/12 #

      What a shame you weren’t in charge to muzzle cowen and lenihan when they were selling the Irish people into EU slavery.

      Reply

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