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A NEW BILL to be debated in the Dáil tomorrow would see the penalty for a woman in Ireland who procures an abortion reduced from 14 years in prison to a fine of €1.
The bill has been tabled by People Before Profit TD Bríd Smith, who said the revelations about the mother and baby home in Tuam are “a blatant example of the Church and the State’s cruel and barbaric treatment of women and children.”.
Today, women in Ireland are still treated as second class citizens and the barbaric sentence of 14 years imprisonment for accessing an abortion here is a shocking example of this. The Church and the State continue to dictate that women are not allowed to make their own choices as to whether to have children or not.
“This is why we urgently need a referendum to Repeal the Eighth Amendment to the Constitution,” she said.
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Smith said it was time for the Church to “get out of our lives, our beds, our hospitals and our schools”.
She said her bill, which will be debated by TDs in the Dáil tomorrow, is aimed at decriminalising abortion in Ireland. The debate follows further discussion at the Citizens’ Assembly over the weekend about repealing the Eighth amendment.
It also comes as 50 activists from Rosa (for Reproductive Rights, against Oppression, Sexism & Austerity) begin a tour around the country on a bus to publicise the availability of abortion pills online through Women on Web.
The bus started in University College Dublin this morning and will visit Waterford, Cork, Limerick, Galway and Kildare between now and Wednesday evening, finishing with a march to the Dáil at 5.30pm from the Garden of Remembrance in Dublin.
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@Cheryl Mellett: I don’t think anyone has been charged, and it’s why Brid Smith is trying to change the punishment. It’s a way of highlighting how ridiculous the whole thing is.
It’s a clever way of making the point that defending the 8th amendment is accepting women being jailed for 14 years, not just having an opinion over what other people can do and not do.
Women haven’t been charged down south recently but there have been 2 (or is it 3) prosecutions under the very similar law in the north. All it might take for a case down here would be a busy body (in one of the northern cases I believe a flat mate informed on the women concerned)
@Rosie Murray: you can get for more for a real baby on the baby black market. That is one of the markets which was developed by the Roman Catholic Church in Ireland
@Elle Belle: No – did I once use the argument that because Tuam happened that abortion is great? No, and I’ll ask you for the 2nd time to stop telling others what they feel or think and stop trying to put words in everyone’s mouth.
I used your own point about the moral path of this country against you, using Tuam as an example. That’s exactly what happened there.
The one euro fine exists in the bill as two previous versions which took away all punishment were deemed unconstitutional so the one euro fine is the lowest penalty that can be put forward in the dail until the 8th is removed
i don’t understand how people feel they have the right to impose their view on this matter.
the women who need or want to end their pregnancy should be supported not forced to travel out of the country.
@Elle Belle: No, I never said that people are disposable chattel and you should stop telling people what they feel or believe.
Abortion is a fact of life. The need for it to prevent unwanted children or serious health implications for women or to save a woman having to carry an non-viable pregnancy is never ever going to go away. Backyard abortions will always happen when there is no alternative.
Progressive societies know this and put measures in place to deal with it under law, not sweep it under the carpet and ignore it.
There is no parallel with slavery and that again just hurts your argument.
@Elle Belle: I didn’t think the fetus was going to sprout fairy wings and flutter off into another dimension.
Why don’t you try answering a question that I ask you? I’ve answered all of yours.
How would you administer your suggestion that every abortion application is assessed separately and are you ok with abortion in the case of rape? I’m not continuing with ‘Whatabouttery’ charade you’re carrying on with.
I would rather women have safe legal access to abortions than increase the numbers currently dying annually (47,000 approx.) and the numbers maimed (5 million approx. ) because of no access to safe legal abortion.
You clearly think that banning abortion will magically stop women attempting to procure them, Surprise, surprise, it doesn’t.
I got those figures from the World Health Organisation in case you think I made them up.
@Elle Belle: And actually, based on the organisation I donated to about two weeks ago there are 27 million people in slavery worldwide…… but that’s actually IRRELEVANT TO THIS CONVERSATION!!
Hope about you stick to the discussion at hand! Slavery is abhorrent. It is not comparable to abortion!
You’re convincing no one by suggesting it is!
A person with thoughts, feelings, relationships, the ability to FEEL PAIN is not the same as a 12 week fetus and it’s quite frankly insulting to people trapped in slavery for you to even make that comparison!
@fitzrik: Um, we do try to prevent them and we police them and we keep statistics on them and have special teams to deal with them.
Just like we should for abortion.
You’re effectively saying you have no issue with 47,000 women dying annually or the 5 million that are maimed.
You are saying that the termination of the pregnancy should take precedence. And this is where we FUNDAMENTALLY disagree.
It is my firmly held belief that a person has the right to determine what happens to their own body and if they refuse to continue a pregnancy that decision should be respected.
And until a fetus can be matured to viability outside of that woman’s womb than a woman’s right to abortion is her right to bodily autonomy.
@Tom Burke: Why on earth are you raising nonsensical hypothetical situations?
Why can you people not just stick to reality?
I’ve made my opinion entirely clear.
A woman’s right to bodily autonomy trumps the fetus. So until it’s possible to remove a fetus and mature it to viability without the womb you should be be FORCING WOMEN to continue a pregnancy against their wishes.
That’s it, that’s the point.
When if comes to choice between the rights if the fetus and the rights of the woman, the woman takes precedence.
And don’t bring up abortions up to term because you KNOW that late term abortions happen for medical and health reasons. We’re talking about early term abortions.
@David Cullen: On behalf of women, thanks. The sign of an enlightenment is empathy for others when there is no chance of being in their shoes. I am very much pro choice and yet have never had an abortion. Having it available as an option does not mean it is chose. Alcohol is for sale here too in great volumes and yet I do not buy any, that is how freedom of choice works.
“You’re SO right. Slavery enslaves, but abortion KILLS!
Spot which is worse!”
WOW!!!!! Only an extreme anti choicer would write that..
We have our very own slave owners on the journal…they believe that once women become pregnant,that they MUST give birth..Well..just like the slaves were raped & impregnated by their white masters,the slaves found a way of aborting the embryo from their bodies..
It is definitely OK for a woman to have a first trimester abortion.Studies have shown that childbirth is up to 14 times more fatal for the woman ,than her having an abortion in the first trimester.YIKES!
It’s antis who make terrible stuff up.
You must have never listened to Cora or Mullen’s ? Yikes!
@Tom Burke: For the woman.
Remember the woman, the one whose body this is happening to?
No, of course you don’t. Go back to worshipping the Virgin Mary.
Fully agree with her. Remove this superstition on enlightened people. Religion should only be part of your life if you choose it not forced en masses. Catholic church remember didn’t want divorce gay marriage also didn’t and still don’t want condoms.
Haha I thought maybe you were trying to troll but I had a look at your Facebook there and no really you are just mad. Must really annoy you that Catholic Ireland is long gone.
@Mick Rick Jones: The Catholic Church prefers to steal the babies en masse to make sure they get sick and then die so they can throw them in the ground unnoticed and unloved. This is not birth control, this is massacre, the chuch must be stripped of all of its rights and authority in this country. Let catholics follow their ideals and leave the rest of us alone.
I’m not sure why people think the only reason a person can have an anti abortion stance is because the church told them so!
I know plenty of people who are non practicing or atheist who don’t support on demand abortion, and believe it or not form those opinions on their own considered thoughts.
The catholic church should be banished from Ireland for the litany of crimes it has bestowed on the people. Catholic churches should all be demolished so as this criminal empire is no longer on show in our country. Any catholics who dont agree with this are free to take the boat to Rome and experience how Irish women have been treated having to leave the country because of hogwash doctrine spewed fron the pulpits.
Gerry – I have spent 30 years outside of this Island and never schooled here. I have now been back 14 years and I question what will be the straw that breaks the Irish people’s back. At what point will the apathy and defence fade away, at what point will parents say NO, you have raped thousands of Irish children, sold thousands of Irish children, murdered many children, beaten my parents, oppressed my mother and grandmother, instilled in us that we were born dirty and sinful, that sex is filthy and the work of the devil, that my friends and relatives are intrinsically disordered, you no longer have the right to pontificate and you shall have no further access to the most precious commodity we have in this land, our children. When do we say NO MORE? When will become a true republic?
Paul
You are stuck in the past.
Why don’t you go down outside the American embassy and protest against apartheid, McCarthyism, slave trade or any other wrong doing of generations gone.
On the way home to Dalkey stop at the British embassy and protest against ‘no Irish need apply’ adverts in the newspaper. Also the discrimination against Catholics in NI.
There comes a time to move on and change with the changed times.
I lived in the uk in the 80′s when you say your Irish they think ‘bombs’.
If you say you’re Irish now they think Louis Walsh.
State run institutions have done just as bad as church run. Wherever you have adults and vulnerable children this will happen unless the adult are vigguressly watched and evaluated.
@Gerry Dunne: the Catholic Church, with others, are one of the few major groups with the guts to defend unborn, defenceless, innocent, babies against being aborted to death in the womb.
This is why the anti Catholic , pro abortion fanatic bigots, attack it.
@Mick Rick Jones: But once the babies are born it’s ok to let them die and stick ‘em in a sceptic tank or if they turn out to be gay they can be written off or if a priest molests them better to protect the priests.
YaY for Catholics sticking up for the unborn!
Tom Burke – you live your life by teachings of a two thousand year old book based on the stories of illiterate middle eastern goat herders and you accuse me of living in the past, you must be a parody account.
Instead of keep saying I live in Dalkey and I am engaged with Cuala come and introduce yourself, I am the 6’4″ fella ordinarily with a London Irish kit on.
@Niamh Kenneally: Read some history. All churches here then , were consulted when our Constitution was written.
Now, today, most reasonable people agree that killing babies deliberately and needlessly, in the womb by abortion, is not good for the babies, their mothers or society.
Exploiting the Tuam tragedy of 50 years ago, to attack the brave present day prolife stance of the Catholic church, as Smith does, is despicable.
Brid Smith, AAA/PBP, and the anti 8Th pro abort fanatics, think it is. Vote them, and their abortion on demand, anti 8th agenda, out
@Mick Rick Jones: Most of the Christian faiths opposed the Eight Amendment back in 1983. It was only the Roman Catholic Church which wanted its dogma in the Irish Constitution.
@Mick Rick Jones: Read some history? Ok, not sure where that came from but where will I start?
“All churches here then, were consulted when our Constitution was written.”
Are you saying that all faiths had a hand in writing our constitution and it wasn’t overwhelmingly Catholic? Where will I read what the statistics were, please?
Tom – I don’t want you to be afraid, I know you are a coward already by the way you spout your hateful bile and support of child rapist priests behind a cloak of anonymity, but I just want to make sure you get the right man as I would hate to miss the opportunity to meet you.
Tom – there is nothing confidential about defending child rapists with an anonymous name you cowardly little catholic.
I was educated in England Tom in a secular environment and then went to the London School of Ecomics for my degree and then I did two post grads and was subsequently awarded another. I don’t think you could get any less catholic than LSE.
My name is my name.
What would you like me to call myself?
I use twitter only for the journal as I don’t tweet or twit.
Would you like me to put up my address?
I suppose I could put up a photo but I might have the ladies after me.
Seriously though. I wouldn’t put up my photo when I oppose abortion.
The pro life people all look sensible.
Many (not all I concede) of the pro abortion lot look like they would glass you.
Could you imagine the AAA or PPF lot calling around?
They never call to the more affluent areas at election time.
@Tom Burke: Excuse me but I see absolutely no reason why me and my wife would have to do what you think is right. You do and fight for your own unborn and leave me and others to make our own decisions.
@Gerry Dunne: That was tried for 100′s of years during the penal laws.Churches were decimated just as you describe. And Catholics were murdered for their faith, not just sent out of the country.
Well it did not work then, in fact it came back stronger than ever.
We don’t want the politicians who represent us prevaricating on this any longer.
Women need to be allowed to have control over their own lives and bodies.
Other people, especially men, should have no say in this issue.
@Elle Belle: “Life gets a little more complicated”. Yes, it does. You’re finally getting it that it’s a complicated issue that needs a clear set of rules in place under law.
I’m not advocating for abortion in special cases – I am pinning your argument down. Are you ok with an abortion in the case of rape and as it seems like you are, how does that tie in with your argument that it’s murdering a baby? How come it’s ok to murder that baby but not the baby that wasn’t conceived during rape?
You’re either going to have to be ok with it or you’re going to have to be ok with forcing women who were raped to have the babies if they’re impregnated.
Or you could have common sense and say ‘I can’t police every abortion request, no-one can, it doesn’t work, so the law should allow it and let the individual decide.
its noticeable at the Citizens Assembly, the Dail, in media, and elsewhere how pro aborts like Smith, Coppinger, Colm o’Gorman (Amnesty) NEVER recognise the unborn human baby in the mothers womb as a human being with a right to life. They NEVER get asked the hard questions, at the CA or elsewhere.
So much for their much – vaunted “caring compassion” and “respect for bodily autonomy” which they deny the unborn baby .
We hear nothing from them of the babies incinerated in abortion mills to heat abortion hospitals, of Planned Parenthoods selling aborted baby body parts for money, of half aborted babies left to die, or thrown in “medical waste” trash cans, or mothers hurt and injured by abortion.
You won’t hear this from PBPs Brid Smith, Coppinger, Ailbhe Smith and other anti 8th pro aborts, or our pro abortion media.
Using the Tuam tragedy for church bashing, pro abortion anti 8th campaigning, as Smith does, is disgusting. She never weeps for the dead aborted babies, just cheap DAIL abortion publicity stunts.
@ Mick Rick Jones or whatever name you are hiding behind today, you and people like you are no different than the Taliban, it’s our way or no way.
You are entitled to your opinion, but you are not entitled to shove it down everyone else’s throat.
@Mick Rick Jones: You won’t hear about any of that because it isn’t true and if you actually think there are ‘abortion mills’ that are heated by the incinerated bodies of aborted fetus’s then you’re insane.
I would love to hear if someone on the anti-abortion side has walked down Marlborough Street or Talbot Street in Dublin (can’t speak for other parts of the country but I’m sure they have their equivalents) and seen the amount of strung out junkie mammies pushing their babies in prams that buckling under the weight of the rake of cans in the back basket and paying no attention to the screaming child in the pram.
I was walking down Talbot Street as recently as Saturday and saw a junkie with her baby in the pram openly buying drugs and baby was screaming in the pram and she was paying absolutely zero attention to him. Sorry, but if abortion was available, it would at the very least mean that these poor babies don’t have to grow up in a home saturated with negative influences and parents who would buy drugs rather than food with their last 20 euro. We all saw that programme about babies being born addicted to methadone because their mothers got pregnant while on heroin/methadone and couldn’t give it up while pregnant. Surely if the grounds of the anti-abortion crowd are to prevent suffering of the little babies, are they endorsing unsuitable parents having children because they don’t have another option?
Abortion isn’t just some young wan who got knocked up after Coppers being too self-obsessed to have a baby. That’s barely 0.01% of the reasons abortion is applicable. Financial reasons, medical reasons, mental health reasons – accidents happen and women should not be made put their bodies through 9 months of what is an endurance test for the body if they don’t want a baby at the end of it. It’s barbaric to make young girls who are barely women themselves carry babies. It’s barbaric to make a mother carry a baby who won’t live past delivery. It’s barbaric to make a woman who gets pregnant due to contraception failure have a baby on her own if the man doesn’t want to be involved.
The Catholic Church’s continuing brainwashing of the Irish population sickens me to my core, and for those saying “I’m athiest but still pro-life” – you’re subscribing to a religious outlook on the preservation of life of the unborn. Plain and simple.
Abortion is not contraception. If you want to prevent poor women having babies argue for more contraception/sex education etc. Abortion is a greater injustice.
@fitzrik:
there is a high standard of contraceptives available to women nowadays but say in the case of the heroin addict, do u really think shes taking her pill everyday at the same time or if she is prostituting for money the man is wearing a condom?
and the ignorance to accept that contraception 100% works because it doesn’t. You also decied to omit an argument for pregnancies within financial constraints, foetal abnormalities which lead to death after birth, mental and physical health of the woman… many many other reasons why someone should not be forced to continue a pregnancy!
nobody intends to use abortion as a contraceptive and highlights the mindset that women are so careless they would have unprotected sex because they have an abortion
abortion in countries were it is legal has a lower rate for countries that have restrictions on abortions. (highlighted many times during the citizens assembly meetings)
It’s a strange thing to see all the abortionistas trying to insist that anyone who is against snuffing out human life is some kind of religious nutcase and then proceed to reign down vicious personal abuse at them…it explains their lack of morality and common decency. .they’re even trying to use the tuam atrocity as grounds for abortion. .that’s quite evil…
@Bejasus Bejorrah: Tuam involv4d the deaths if real babies. Abortion is the termination of foetuses. The connection is the hypocrisy of the Roman Catholic Church and its various hench people.
@Tom Burke:
I am for abortion on demand as you pro birthers like to call it. I believe the choice is for the woman to make whether she has had a one night stand or is a rape victim to an addict.
Yes it’s never refused because it’s legal to have an abortion in the UK? I don’t see your point, why would someone lie about a mental/physical illness to have an abortion when they can have one anyway?
The figures you use don’t shock or insult me, they are just women who have made the right choice for themselves to me?
Those 200,00 potential humans have no significance to my life so why should it to yours? baffling.
@Jennifer Mullins: They are not “potential” humans Jennifer. There is no such thing as potential human. you are either a member of the human species or not.
As for “abortion on demand” I have always found that a bizarre expression. Women are in no position to demand anything. And if they do the rest of us have the right to say NO.
@Jennifer Mullins: And btw Abortion is illegal under UK law. It is Under the criminal law The offenses against the persons Act. The 1967 Abortion Act merely provides for exceptions and immunity from prosecutions in certain circumstances.
And mother are indeed refused. Which is why some travel to the US, and Marie Stopes has referred mothers to Spain.
@Tony Daly: What has YD got to do with anything? You are as incapable of engaging and debating issues as usual.
The issue here are
There is no such thing as potential human. You are either a member of the human species or you are not. And the offspring of two human parents cannot be another species other than human (even before birth)
Mothers are not entitled to “demand” anything of anyone. And those of who they demand are entitled to say NO.
Abortion in the UK is under the Criminal Law, the Offences Against the Person Act (with Attached Life imprisonment land the 1967 Act serves only to provide protections against prosecution in some circumstances.
and Mothers are indeed refused meaning mothers traveling to other jurisdictions to procure abortions.
@Maria Mhic Mheanmain:
It is not illegal under UK law? what are you on about?
it is legal up to 24 weeks and is one of the most liberal abortion laws in europe. nobody is refused an abortion, where are your sources for this mad claim?
go away with your false facts and your view on human life is clearly not the same as mine and this is why abortion is not black and white and why are you sticking your nose into other peoples business? you probably walk past many women who have undergone an abortion and you would never know!
your religion interferes with science so please refrain from commenting to me after this. thank bye.
@Maria Mhic Mheanmain:
are you even of child bearing age? this doesn’t really concern you, nobody is making YOU have an abortion nor is it making anyone else.
you keep your body matters to yourself and don’t worry about anyone else choices.
@Tom Burke:
No Tom, I don’t think we as humans should abandon those who are most vulnerable which includes the women of Ireland and other countries were body autonomy is restricted. No I do not believe a fetus has the same equal status as a woman who needs to carry it for it to continue to grow and develop.
@Jennifer Mullins: As in Jennifer the law Underpinning Abortion Law, in the UK is The Criminal Law The offenses against the Person Act. The 1967 Abortion Act merely gives protections from prosecution in certain laid out circumstances.
AS for my sources they are The Royal College of Midwives, and Marie Stopes.
My view on life is Biological one. You were a human before birth.You were a Human zygote, human embryo, human foetus etc. Always human never “potentially” human.
It is perhaps Your false assumption that this based on “religion” that you believe you changed species at birth.
@Niamh Kenneally so by your logic once you are unaware of whats happening to you then you are not a victim? Try telling that to women who have been forcefully drugged into oblivion and then raped.
@Chris Martin: I’m pretty sure the soreness of her vagina and the presence of semen would be a strong indicator, Chris.
Is that the same thing? No, no it’s actually nothing like the situation where a fetus is terminated.
Any other bad analogies?
” So in your view, “someone” must be aware of being Victimised to be a victim?” Poor pet has been smoking way too much of Marion’s wacky backy :) An embryo or a foetus is not SOMEONE :) Poor pet :) Puff puff :)
@Pat Patovic: My vote is very relevant for the law on abortion in this county. If my vote amounts to “forbidding another woman from having an abortion” so be it. They will accept it. And so will you
Brid is looking very angry today.
Thing is- shouldn’t abortion be judged purely on morality with no religious involvement.
I’m with Brid on this.
Let’s get all the information out there including the graphic images of aborted babies.
The civil rights movement in the US produced images of black people in chains. That was at a time when slavery was outlawed but apartheid wasn’t.
Let’s have no restriction on imagery as long as it’s truthful.
Let’s have the stories of the foetus recoil as the tongs seeks it out to pull it limb from limb in order to remove it.
The skull is next which needs to be crushed to be removed.
The remains are then incinerated with hospital waste.
My description is very graphic but also very true.
@Tom Burke: Tongs? Do you actually think abortions are performed with tongs? Why would the skull need to be removed? For novelty ash-trays?
Get off the stage, you’re talking tripe. Your graphic description is fiction.
@Tom Burke what kind of fetishists are taking all these pictures and videos of aborted foetuses? Who gives them permission to film their abortion porn? And what are antichoicers doing in abortion clinic surgeries anyway?
@Tom Burke: @Tom Burke: You want me to be your personal Google? You were well able to take the time to give us a fictional account of some gory fantasy you have so you definitely have time to educate yourself on the procedures involved in a termination.
@Tom Burke: Tom, you just made up a gory fantasy there instead of sticking to facts. Care to acknowledge that? Why should anyone listen to you otherwise?
Niamh
I didn’t make the video.
There are horrible images of limbs on a tray after an abortion. Sorry it’s horrific but abortion is horrific.
I’m asking you, do you believe these images are real or fake.
Simple question.
You see, the common theme is to attack me and not deal with the subject matter. Why are you running from the truth.
2 simple questions. Please answer. Attack me also but please answer these 2 questions.
1) do you believe these images are real.
2) if they are real, do you think we should censor them?
@Niamh Kenneally: Also, I did not attack you. I’m sticking to the argument constantly so not sure why you and some others keep acting like they’re begin attacked. Its very victimy.
I am attacking your argument only.
@Tom Burke: So what are you waffling on about?The woman goes to procure an abortion and if there is remains left in the womb,then it has to be removed,yes? As abortions have been happening since time-memorial,then wouldn’t it be better if antis stopped trying to put roadblocks in the way,like they do with the abortion pills.These pills would help to stop more of the ‘gory’ videos that you seem to love watching,over & over again,
@Tom Burke: You’re just a horse, remember, you shouldn’t even be posting here, now tot back to your stable, and get yourself fitted for a new set of horseshoes
@Tom Burke: Tom, you just said this, “You see, the common theme is to attack me and not deal with the subject matter.”, then you followed that with insulting someone else.
Practise what you preach.
I admire and I respect Brid Smith but I disagree with her approach.
The first step is to have a Referendum on the Repeal of the 8th Amendment, the wretched Article 40.3.3 of the Constitution, which is the enshrinement of Roman Catholic Dogma.
The second step, if there is a vote for Repeal, is to reform Irish statutory law and to set a proportionate and rational legal regime for abortion in Ireland.
@Elle Belle: Lighten up? Ok, sorry, I didn’t realise you were having a little chuckle at all the people so deluded they think that this medical procedure should be administered in the same way as all the other medical procedures.
When you hear of a man getting a vasectomy is your first thought ‘I better not have paid for that!”?
If not, why not?
@Elle Belle: No, it isn’t, because the majority of abortion candidates are young, single and poor.
So you can pay for the abortion now or you can pay the Childrens Allowance, the social housing, the social security payments for 18 years and maybe the free legal aid when they grow into socially disadvantaged teenagers getting into trouble.
A vasectomy isn’t currently illegal so that’s a silly argument. Medical and criminal case should be covered under a medical card yes. I Am also sure vasectomy is not free in this country.
@Andy Wallace: The legality isn’t the issue here; it’s who is paying for the procedure.
Man has procedure on his reproductive organs = medical procedure and nobody asks who pays.
Woman has procedure on her reproductive organs = medical procedure also and should be treated the same. That’s my point.
@Andy Wallace: If you have VHI or a medical card it’s likely covered – same as any other procedure. Why would you make pregnant women go a separate payment route?
@Elle Belle: I pay for smokers to get chemo for lung cancer and alcoholics to get dialysis and new livers, wasters who’ve abused their bodies for years, get there are no antichoice campaigns to stop taxpayer funds treating these careless, self inflicted illnesses. If taxes can pay for drunks to get a second liver, then they can pay for women to have abortions I’m a clean, safe, legal environment.
You can get your tubes tide as I can get a vasectomy. Abortion is currently illegal and I have no say weather or not you go to England and get one if I Am the father. Who is getting discriminated against?
@Elle Belle: How exactly is abortion “safe” ? The baby is killed by abortion every single time.
Brid Smith’s church bashing Tuam agenda is so obvious. Because the Catholic Church is bravely opposing abortion of babies to death, pro aborts like Smith attack it.
Using the Tuam tragedy to do so, is despicable.
Bottom line, Brid Smith and AAA/PBP support babies being aborted.
In UK abortion mills, aborted babies are dumped, trashed, incinerated for heating, and n the U.S. , , Planned Parenthoods sells them for profit.
This is the abortion industry which Smith, Coppinger, Daly want brought here. Dead aborted babies is the result.
That’s a bit of a catch 22 isn’t it. At the moment however you have that option regardless of what I say to travel so I’d say currently I Am being discriminated against. Ah yes however you forget VHI are a private company and will not cover abortion. The waiting list for medical cards will be more then 9 months it’s logisticaly crazy to expect the Irish hospital system to cope. They can’t do as it is
Mick, following clerical sexual abuse, rape, buggery, sodomising of children, and the Magdalene launderies, the Catholic Church has lost all credibility. Would you listen to an organisation of lay people who’d done such horrific deeds?
@Mick Rick Jones: 9 out of 10 wars were in the name of god. Religion is the biggest cause of death so far yet there you are, copy pasting the same bigoted lunatic response all over this discussion.
@Andy Wallace: You’re being discriminated against by nature because you don’t have a womb. You can’t expect women to hand over the autonomy of their wombs to men to make up for that.
I’d bet my bottom dollar that the VHI would pay for an abortion for medical reasons.
I don’t understand your point on medical cards – you wouldn’t expect someone with a disability who can’t work but needs an operation to come up with the money themselves – it gets covered by the public system. Same as someone without the means to pay for their asthma medicine gets covered a woman without the means to pay for an abortion would get covered. There wouldn’t be a separate channel for them to make their own way. The system could cope just fine; it already copes with the myriad of miscarriages that happen per day.
@Gerry Dunne: aaah c’mere . Women deciding what to with their won bodies. Next you’ll be telling me that they are entitled to their own views independent of the Roman Catholic dogma.
@Virtual Donal: ahh yes, what has no one thought to do this before? Wait, let me think. I think that there is obscure cult, the Roman Catholic Church which has done this.
@Tony Daly: … and abort the babies to death in the abortion on demand clinics which Brid Smith/Coppinger/ Clare Daly and the looney pro abortion left want to replicate from Britain.
Tears from the pro aborts for Tuam tragedy of 50 years ago, but none for the aborted babies of today.
No mercy from the Irish pro aborts for the babies now dying and dumped as “medical waste” in British abortion clinics.
Opportunistic hypocrites using Tuam to push their abortion agenda. SICKENING.
@Mick Rick Jones: in Tuam, it was a case of babies, real babies, actual babies being neglected and allowed ti due by an inhumane and prejudiced Church which was focused on the victims illegitimate status.
Abortion is entirely different. It terminate a foetus and prevents the development of a baby.
The reason why there is linkage bwteen abortion and the atrocities in Tuma is to demonstrate the hyprocisy of the RCC, what happened when women could not have abortions and to show that babies are vastky morfe important than foetuses.
“who said the revelations about the mother and baby home in Tuam are “a blatant example of the Church and the State’s cruel and barbaric treatment of women and children.”.
Except they mostly happened about a 100 years ago Brid, and the place closed in 1961.
Let’s not pretend that what happened in the past also happens today in order to advance your agenda. You cannot judge the past by todays values. In that case we should still be having a go at the Germans for their treatment of the Jews today.
If new revelations about the cruelty of the nazis emerged, Germans wouldn’t be looking to deflect blame and attention away. I like that you compare the barbaric cruelty of the catholic church to the nazis, though.
What she’s saying is equivalent to claiming that the Jews are being discriminated against and marginalised in todays Germany, and looking to advance policy based on that.
Opposition to abortion is not a religious matter, I’m atheist and incredibly proud of our defense of the unborn. It’s a cheap stunt. People before profit really are such a pathetic party.
@Dean Burroughs: If your partner got pregnant and her life was at risk, unless she had a termination.Would you protect that “unborn” above her? If your answer is no,why ?
@Niamh Kenneally: That was a case of medical negligence. Three independent investigations have come to this conclusion. According to HIQA, the poor woman didn’t even get a basic level of care, they were so negligent.
She didn’t die due to being denied an abortion. Read the report.
She died because of a series of failings as is happening frequently in our poor health service.
@Emma Murphy: an abortion would have saved the life of Savita, by enabling the cervix to be closed and thereby preventing the entrance of the bacteria which caused the sepsis.
Delayed administration of sufficient iv antibiotics was a factor but the waiting for the foetal heart beat to expire was fatal for Savita.
Sadly, it was not legally possible to perform the abortion of the unviable foetus and as a result Savita died of sepsis.
@Emma Murphy: If there had been no confusion over what they were allowed do under law for her, once they knew the fetus would die, then she would not have died. Our fu**ed-up laws are what killed her.
@Tony Daly: Exactly, and I find it really gross that people falling over themselves to declare their support of unborn babies are so quick to dismiss the awful death of a woman caused directly by the laws they want in place.
Almost like the woman’s life is never as important.
@Niamh Kenneally: the interest of a non sentient foetus are regarded as far more valuable than the life of a pregnant woman with all of her connections, emotions, memories, aspirations, loves, and place in life. It is so strange.
The life of one pregnant woman is more valuable and catly important than that of a billion foetuses. Indeed, there is no valid basis of comparison.
I wonder how long it will take before this News story is transformed in the media to read something along the lines of Pro-Abortion lobby wanting to offer abortions in Ireland for €1 each?
@Terry OHagan: Hang your own head in shame for the dead, aborted innocent babies you are happy to see killed off by abortion, not 50 years in Tuam, but NOW today, on your doorstep.
We don’t see much concern from you and your likes, for those dead babies, or their rights.
What has Tuam and events that happened post natal over half a century ago got to with a debate on the rights and wrongs of terminating a life pre natal today?
@Sean @114: the common role of an oppressive and cruel Roman Catholic Church seeking to impose its dogma and cruelty on society. It proves the continuing malign influence of the Roman Catholic Church.
I see. So no relevance whatsoever in other words. Just looks like desperate scaremongering from the hardline pro abortion group. The RC church will have as much influence in a referendum on the 8th as it did on the same sex marriage vote. Dragging up happenings of half a century to use as a political football in a referendum vote smacks of desperation.
re Brid Smiths latest pro abortion Dail publicity stunt and cynical exploitation of Tuam baby tragedy are despicable, blatant opportunism.
In abortion mills in the UK and elsewhere, dead aborted babies remains are NOW routinely dumped as medical waste, incinerated to heat the hospital where they were aborted, left to die alone and unaided, and sold by Brid Smiths fellow abortion campaigners Planned Parenthood, as aborted baby body parts for research or transplant.
Brid Smith, and her pro abortion PBP party, push for abortion on demand here.
How “cruel and inhuman” is this abortion mill treatment now, happening today ? Smith and her ilk, condone this and campaign for similar abortion mills to be available here.
Smiths exploitation of the Tuam baby tragedy to push her own pro abortion agenda is despicable.
The abortions Smith and her PBP pro abortion campaigners demand, kill a human baby every single time, in every single abortion.
Voters should remember that their votes give Smith and her pro abortion mates, a Dail platform to push for abortion of babies on demand. Voters have a responsibility to oppose abortion of babies and those who push it.
Defend unborn babies by voting pro abortion pushers like Smith out.
@Mick Rick Jones: The Tuam babies, real babies having been born, were neglected when they could not be sold and the bodies were dumped in sewerage silos without Roman Catholic rites and not in a consecrated grave yard.
I agree with most of what you say but we don’t have evidence the Tuam babies were murdered. Truthfully, I don’t believe they were and I’ve never heard a valid suggestion they were.
They were disrespected in death and their dumping was horrid.
There has been no evidence or valid suggestion though, that they were murdered.
There is no consistency to suggest that as they were all different ages.
@Mick Rick Jones:nowhere do u say the nuns in charge of those Tuam babies had compassion , because they didnt your whole argument is devoid of any compassion. Thats what its all about.
@Tom Burke: The Catholic League asserts that the Tuam babies scandal is totally fake and that no bones ha ve been found. None of the babies died and it is all a made up story. Never happened.
Tricia
My mother came from a comfortable enough background. There were 9 children in her family and 2 died before 3 yrs of age. They wouldn’t have died today but they weren’t neglected.
They got the best medical treatment of the time but still died.
The mortality rate was probably higher in the homes because of overcrowding.
Remember, whilst hospitals were built to make people better it’s also the place where you are more likely to pick up something when you are sick and vulnerable.
@Tom Burke: Just an unnaturally high mortality rate, pure coincidence.
Nothing to see here and those babies and little kids were grand (until they were dead) so back to fighting about fetus’.
@eileen boles: Abortion and those, like Smith, who push it, have NO compassion for the babies killed by abortion, in every single abortion, NOW, not 50 years ago, every single day.
I don’t see you condemning Smith or other pro aborts for advocating abortion of babies, on demand here.
Why didn’t the womens families protect them, the men who got them pregnant, the State protect them ?
Wringing your hands NOW, about Tuam 50 years ago, while todays babies are aborted to death, dumped in medical waste, or sold for body parts, in todays abortion mills, is hypocrisy.
If the nuns then, had not taken those poor women in, who would have ? Not our State, or the likes of the anti 8th crowd now advocating similar babies be aborted to death, and dumped as “medical waste”.
Where’s Smiths compassion for dead, aborted babies ? Can’t be seen or heard.
@Mick Rick Jones: no babies are killed by abortion. Your argument would only be sustainable if real live babies, such as in Tuam, were being killed or allowed to die.
Abortion is so “neglectful” too. Abortion always kills the baby dead. Not much dignity either in being dumped in “medical trash”, sold for body parts, or burned to heat the hospital.
Smith, and the pro abortion anti 8ths know this, but hypocritically stay silent, encouraging abortion of tiny babies, while jumping on the tragic Tuam anti Catholic bandwagon.
Smith, and the pro abortion pushers, attack the 8th to push abortion here. These looney left pro aborts attack the Churches, or anyone, who dares oppose their baby abortion agenda.
@Tricia Golden: Abortion kills babies in the womb every single time. Pro aborts, as you are, are fine with that.
Their aborted dead bodies are burned, sold , and dumped NOW today, in abortions mills.
Hypocritical hand wringing about the Tuam tragedy, while simultaneously, advocating abortion of babies now, as the AAA/PBP Smith, and assorted pro abortion looney fanatics , now do, shows hypocrisy on the pro aborts part.
The Catholic Church today, bravely, opposes abortion of babies. Brid Smith/Coppinger/Clare Daly defend thre sordid abortion industry, and attack the 8th, to establish abortion of babies on demand here.
Using the Tuam tragedy of 50 years ago, to drive this pro abortion, anti Catholic bigotry, is cynical opportunism.
@Tony Daly: try studying Ultrascan of “real, live ” babies being killed as they are aborted to death. You might learn something. You can see the baby die by abortion.
You can see the babys heart being stopped. But of course, pro aborts like you, NEVER want people to see this, they prefer censorship as we saw at the Citizen Assembly from the pro abortion USI speaker.
The Catholic Church bravely opposes this. Brid Smith, and her foreign funded allies, promote abortion of babies, by advocating abortion on demand.
@Tricia Golden: so what ? You vote for politicians who think aborting babies in their mothers womb to death, is good and desireable.
Too bad a baby dies, to satisfy your silly “pro choice” ideology. 200,000 died by abortion in the UK NOW every year. Congratulations on that marvellous achievement.
99% were social abortions.
Politicians who promote this, like Smith/Coppinger./PBP-AAA/ Sinn Fein should be dumped.
Voting for them, promotes an end result of dead, aborted babies, as happened, since 1967, in Britain.
@Tricia Golden: aborted babies bodies are dumped, burned, sold in abortion mills, in the abortion industry.
You OK with this ? The opportunist pro abort Smith, and her ilk, seem to be — they advocate abortion, never condemn its consequences (death for babies) – while jumping on the tragic Tuam bandwagon of 50 years age, ignoring todays abortion baby slaughter and disrespect of dead babies remains.
The Catholic Church bravely fights abortion. Smith, and her likes, defend and promote it for Ireland.
@Tony Daly: wheres your evidence that ” real live babies in Tuam were killed or allowed to die ” ?
We can say with absolute certainly that RIGHT NOW, babies are killed in abortion clinics.
We can also say that the pro abortion brigade, like Brid Smith, with Dail stunts, now hypocritically, jumping on the Tuam tragic bandwagon, support abortion of babies in the womb to death, here in Ireland, on demand.
I don’t know how many if any were murdered or accelerated towards death. I don’t know. I just gave my view. Nobody knows and nobody will ever know. There could be all sorts of variables. But that’s not what this thread is about. This is about whether abortion is right or wrong.
But don’t listen to me. I’m just an apologist as you say.
@Tom Burke: Tom, why didn’t you answer me on the rape issue? I asked you 4 times, you ignored me even though I answered your questions. Is it because you know it’s a quandary you can’t answer without admitting to yourself that your logic is flawed?
@Tricia Golden: yes I do. The babys heart beats at 6 weeks. So don’t kill that human heart.
Pro aborts NEVER want images of aborted babies , or healthy babies , in the womb, shown to people EVER.
They love censorship of the abortion truth.
We saw this yesterday at the CA, where the pro abortion USI rep, (funded compulsorily, with no choice, by all fellow students, whether they wish to or not) wanted to censor truthful abortion images from being brought to the public.
Defund USI pro aborts now. Get their hand off their fellow students wallets.
There were 91,000, approx, post first trimester abortions in the US in 2015. About 10% of the almost 1m abortions were after the first trimester. It’s a pretty shocking statistic. Let’s not pretend that it’s very rare or doesn’t happen just because it makes you feel better about the process and end result. 91,000 in the US alone that year.
The abortion figures coming from America,have been extremely encouraging.Lets hope that Trump doesn’t make them rise,again..Oh,and there would be a lot more terminations in the first trimester and less in the second,if the anti choice folks(legislatures) stop putting obstacles in the way..Bigly population in the US,,
91,000 post first trimester terminations is hardly something to be positive about. 96% of terminations for non-FFA, health and rape reasons. Astonishing figures by any measure.
Death is no laughing matter Francis. Bizarre that you should think it so. But sure look it’s not termination of life sure it’s not? Whatever makes you sleep better at night Francis. Keep putting your fingers in your ears and closing your eyes.
“Keep putting your fingers in your ears and closing your eyes.” <- And that is exactly what the anti choice people keep on doing..You lot are never bloody happy,even when abortion figures have gone away down.Just wait until Trump defunds Planned Parenthood and you will start to see those figures going back up.But hey,I'll be saying -'nah nah I told you so' – whilst I have my "fingers in my ears & my eyes closed.' Bye bye!
I’m not one of the anti-choice ‘lot’ Francis. That’s the problem with pro abortion extremists they have to label and slur those who don’t share the same opinions as them. They are either ‘religious nuts’, members of a ‘cult’, an ‘anti choice lot’. Debate the matter but don’t resort to name calling just because you cannot articulate your position. You just look foolish.
Yes I would most certainly put you in that category Francis. Mad as a box of frogs. Guilty as charged. Over 900,000 first trimester abortions in the US in 2015 Francis. Almost 1m. Over 91,000 after first trimester. Incredible figures really. 96%+ abortions for ‘convenience’ reasons. Is this what you want Francis, really? Surely there comes a point where you’re humane side kicks in and says that this is wrong. No?
“Mad as a box of frogs ” Thanks for the compliment :)
Over 10% of “convenience” abortions are due to domestic violence related concerns.
Rape is also under reported hugely
Contraceptives fail.Why were women using them?Because they didn’t want to be pregnant.That is where abortion comes in
61% of women who procure an abortion are already mothers.Surely it’s they that know what is best for them,yes?
Abortion also eliminates the stress, physical risks, and psychological risks of continuing an unwanted pregnancy.
Personally speaking,I would never advocate for forcing someone to go through 9+ months of that torture,with the added knowledge of knowing, that giving childbirth is 14 times more fatal to a woman- than her having a first trimester abortion..
Illegal abortions accounts for over 78,000 lives every year
I will always put my wife & daughter above an embryo or foetus
PS: Texas State legislatures put in obstacles to women accessing abortions & second trimester abortions rose by 27%
@Sean @114: You do realise the hypocrisy of what you;’re saying, yes?
There are no pro-abortion extremists and it’s the height of ignorance to say so when the extremists are the ones bombing, shooting up and protesting clinics.
Pro-choice people just want their rights enshrined in law, they don’t want to murder anyone, or maim anyone, or traumatise anyone, or judge anyone for their choices. That’s all your lot.
Why is it people seem to think human nature will not exert itself.
People will do what they want.
And that means they’ll have sex, and sometimes they’ll get pregnant when they don’t want to be and when that happens they won’t just “accept” it they’ll do anything they can to terminate the pregnancy,
Those are the facts. If you have some plan that can change human nature you’ could win yourself a Nobel prize, in the meantime the rest of us have to live in the real world and deal with the problems that come with living in said world. One of which is women will procure abortions and if we don’t permit them access to safe ones large numbers will die or be maimed.
“A woman’s body is her own except when she is carrying another woman as in a baby girl then that woman’s life is removed from existence through murder?”
What in the name of “god” did you just write?!?!?!
“A woman’s body is her own”
Yes it is.
” A woman’s body is her own except when she is carrying another woman”
If she is carrying another woman,why wouldn’t it still be her body? She probably would have serious back injuries for carrying that woman around the joint for 9 months.Cray cray!
“A woman’s body is her own except when she is carrying another woman as in a baby girl” When does the woman magically change back to a girl ? This “story” is getting even crazier!!
“A woman’s body is her own except when she is carrying another woman as in a baby girl then that woman’s life is removed from existence through murder?” So lets get this straight.. the woman who magically becomes a girl- ends up killing the woman-even though-the woman carried her on her back for 9 months..Cray cray!
@Clon Lad: You know everyone was born from their mothers and what do you call us then, it isn’t fetuses is it???
What are babies but children, it isn’t hard. You kill anyone and you take the rest of their life from them.
Interesting how grand-standing pro abortion zealot TD Brid Smith thinks everyone should have “choices” EXCEPT the babies actually being aborted to death in their mothers womb, where they should be safest.
Interesting too, how church-basher Brid has to reach to the tragedies of Tuam in the 1940s and 50s, and uses those tragedies, to inflict an even greater human right abuse of 2017, aborting human babies to death, on Ireland.
Smiths Illogical, hard left, pro abortion nonsense, willing to drag up any tragedy (Tuam, Savita) to attack the Catholic Church, because that church bravely, today, opposes abortion of human lives in the womb.
Abortion kills babies. Smith, Daly, Coppinger and the Sinn Fein pro aborts just don’t care.
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