@al shamen: The Spanish are not naïve enough to believe that enforcing a veto against Scottish EU Membership would put an end to a rise in nationalism in Catalunya / el Pais Vasco.

Yes, break-up of Spain is a huge concern for Madrid from an exports point of view, but fishing is an important enough sector of the Spanish economy that Madrid would face huge domestic pressure to acquiesce to Scottish EU Membership. In any event, Madrid would itself have a veto on any application by a Barcelona government to apply for EU membership, so accepting or rejecting Scotland does not forestall the end-game for Madrid,

Belgium is another matter; is is already one of the world’s most federalist States. Already it the role of the Brussels Government’s Foreign Ministry is to coordinate compromise between what the Walloon and Flemish Authorities want on external matters (FYI Flanders already has a “Department of Foreign Affairs”) and “Belgium” allows both region to occupy the Belgian seat at EU meetings on policy matters of overriding concern in to either region. “Belgium” will not stand in the way of Scottish EU Membership.

‘in any event, Madrid would itself have a veto on any application by a Barcelona government to apply for EU membership, so accepting or rejecting Scotland does not forestall the end-game for Madrid’

But it certainly sets a precedent.And we can only judge on their actions so far.They have repeatedly blocked breakway region Kosovos attempts to apply for membership,one can only assume they will adopt the same attitude to Scotland.
Fishing is important to the Spaniards but the importance of access to a fishing ground is miniscule compared to the importance of the two main industrial and economic regions of Spain.

I can’t believe that Spain would veto Scotland’s application and seriously piss off 5 million people, many of whom go to Spain on holidays and buy Spanish products. They would also piss off the Irish, the Scottish living in the rest Europe and even other right thinking people in the EU. It’s a silly comment by a stupid politician. The more the English threaten the Scottish the more likely independence will be.

The amount of Scottish people it would annoy is tiny and their economic value to Spain is insignificant compared to Catalonia. The Spanish PM told them in November that they would not agree to an independent Scotland joining the EU.

@al shamen:

Firstly, Spain opposes bilateral recognition of Kosovo as a State; but within the EU itself Spain is not opposing the negotiation of an SAA with Kosovo, which is traditionally has been the first legal step to EU accession negotiations with eastern block countries.

Secondly, assuming that Madrid would regard Pristina and Edinburgh in the same way is something that does not stand up to critical analysis; not alone for the historical ties Spain has with Edinburgh both through history and through EU institutions, and not alone because Spain already maintains diplomatic links with the Scottish Executive through its Consul General in Edinburgh; but also for the purchasing power of Scots as consumers of Spanish goods. Scotland’s population outstrips Kosovo’s 3:1 and the Scots’ purchasing power outstrips the Kosovars’ by several multiples.

Therefore, the same domestic Spanish concerns simply don’t apply: for Madrid, Kosovar independence is opposed on domestic policy grounds, but the conflicting interests of Spain’s foreign and economic policies will necessitate a much more nuanced response by Madrid to what happens in Scotland once it happens. Scotland will remind Spain that Britain did not veto Spain’s accession to the EEC at a time when democracy in Spain was fledgling after decades of Franco – simply put, the current intransigent position of Madrid on Scottish independence is one of posturing, targeted at a domestic audience, nothing more.

‘I can’t believe that Spain would veto Scotland’s application’ They probably won’t be the only ones vetoing it.

‘other right thinking people in the EU’ other right thinking people being people who think like you.

‘they would also piss off the Irish, the Scottish living in the rest Europe’ Irish and Scottish people make up 11 million people out of 500 million in the EU a miniscule amount of people and liable to strike fear into nobody.

@Winding Down I see you are now moving away form your original position that closure of Scottish fishing grounds will force the Spaniards to play ball.
All of what you say ignores the fact that the central issue for Spain is the retention of Catalonia and the Basque country the main economic and industrial regions of Spain.This overrides any purchasing power of the Scotland or any other issue as it is highly debateable wheter Spain as a nation is viable with the loss of those two regions.
I see you also ignore the fact that it is likely Spain will not be alone in vetoing Scottish accession.

A Spanish veto would be grossly immoral and couldn’t possibly succeed. No one could be allowed veto an application by a country obviously in Europe for domestic political reasons. The French generally have a sense of fair play so it’s not just a 10+ million Scots and their allies but all moral individuals. I actually think the idea of a veto is absurd. Scotland upon achieving independence would have every attribute that would allow them enter the EU. In fact for all sorts of reasons they would effectively be in it from day one.

Veto-the power (used by an officer of the state, for example) to unilaterally stop an official action, especially the enactment of legislation.

The Spanish have one and so do every other member state.France has it’s own issues with separatists regions will in all likelihood back the Spanish.

‘in fact for all sorts of reasons they would effectively be in it from day one’ Except for the main reason that like any other potential member such as Turkey or Ukraine their membership has to be unaminously agreed to by every existing member state.The process takes years.

@al shamen: I have not moved from my soundbyte about fishing trawlers. I simply decided it was best to challenge your arguments, rather than just repeating my own.

There are of course very serious economic implications for Spain if the independence agenda is pursued by any of its autonomous communities. Spain is however (hopefully) grown up enough to realize that the independence agenda within its borders inflamed or ameliorated by far more than the Scottish EU Membership question.

It’s a rather facile analysis by you of Spanish current affairs and the political history of the Iberian peninsula to suggest that by shutting its eyes to the evolving EU borders, Madrid can expect its domestic problems to go away. They are issues that Madrid needs to tackle head on, irrespective of the outcome of the Spanish referendum. And they are issues Madrid will still need to tackle head on, irrespective of the outcome of Edinburgh’s application for EU Membership.

And you’ll find that I already dealt squarely with Belgium’s likely stance on Scottish Membership – maybe not in this thread, but elsewhere on this page. And for the record – I don’t have a position on how Scotland should vote; I merely have a position on their entitlement to decide their own governance and by extension what international organizations they ought to be allowed to apply for membership to.

Best not to make vacuous soundbites then.

‘I merely have a position on their entitlement to decide their own governance and by extension what international organizations they ought to be allowed to apply for membership to’

While Scotland should of course be entitled to decide it’s own for of governance,the ultimate arbiter of Scotland’s entitlement to membership of certain international organisationans is the current members of those organisations.Spain in the case of the EU being one of those members.

al shamen: You’re a poor debater, Sir/Madam. It wasn’t at all as vacuous as your presumptive conclusion that Kosovo and Scotland independence are comparable for Madrid. Or as vacuous as your facile assumption that a Spanish veto on Scottish EU Membership would do anything to address the popular causes for Catalan or Basque grievance with Madrid.

Kosovo and Scotland are comparable in so far as that they/potentially are both secession states.That’s a realistic conclusion rather then a presumptive one.
Maybe my debating skills are poor,but not as poor as your reading skills.Can you highlight where I stated a Spanish veto would address the Catalan and Basque issues?

Also , does the pound sterling operate on the open market? … Yes so England cannot stop any country from using said currency

If Iceland wanted to use sterling tomorrow as their currency the only way England can stop them is to remove it from the currency market …. Same way as the Russia could use the euro tomorrow or South Africa could use the US dollar

If you can buy it you can use it

The Jocks know what side their bread is buttered…they’ll stay as they are I would safely bet…

Green monkey. Where on earth did ya get that freaky looking profile pic. It’s funny!

Green monkey. Where on earth did ya get that freaky looking profile pic. It’s funny!

Big boost for the pro-independence camp.
The EU would be better off if they let Scotland in and threw Barroso out.

It’s a selfie

You must mean Kris’s freaky profile photo surly?

Salmonds must be delighted at the faux pas of Brussels – surely Barossa’s position is now untenable after this gross interference . Add to that the actual fact that Scotland , together with England and Wales is an existing Member of The EU !

@Ciarraioch Actually I think you will find that Scotland is not an existing member of the EU,much like Bavaria or Leinster are not members of the EU.

Collectively Ciarrioch, England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland being the United Kingdom is part of the EU, not as individual member states. Therefore you are incorrect.

Al Shamen – they are all collectively Members of The EU – as The United Kingdom .
Are you saying that Brussels will throw out Scotland and keep Wales and England in ?
I would bet my €100 that this will never happen !

You are missing the point Carraioch. The United Kingdom is part of the EU. If Scotland suddenly became independent, it would no longer be in the EU. It would have to apply if it wanted to join.

The UK is a member of the EU.If Scotland decides to secede,and leave the Union the remaining UK continues as an EU member.Scotland as an independent nation has to apply for EU membership separately .It does not automatically become an EU member by virtue of the fact that it is former member of the UK.So no Brussels does not have to throw Scotland out since they willingly left the club.
I am willing to double that 100 eur bet.

@Kris I don’t think Carraioch has thought this one through.

The klan now talking for Scotland ???? Or just klu klux Kris o Kay

Also the “Uk” will have to redefine their charter to Brussels if the borders change …… Might see a referendum thanks to the scots

The UK will have to reapply also cause their charter no longer exists as they won’t be the entity the joined in first place as Scotland was part there of

Barroso is Portuguese, why would he be so concerned about the affairs of Spain?

His concern is a degradation of the centralised control of the EU, White Fang.

Because he’s a Eurocrat and Eurocrats love nothing more than to interfere in the domestic affairs of other nations.

Spot on Seamus, he doesn’t give a rats ass about Scotland per se , its the broader ramifications of the decision to separate from the UK, as rightly pointed out by many comments, it’s a Pandora’s box effect .

Nothing to do with his nationality, he is just saying how things are.

@al shamen: You’re wrong – Barrosso has more than a passing interest in EU Affairs; so he should respect the boundaries of his current role. As Commission President what he ought to have said was that it wasn’t the European Commission role to comment on a political matter like this, since it is not within the Commission’s legal remit; and it isn’t. The Commissions’s sole legal function in this area is to negotiate the acquis communitare with prospective member states and to give them updates on their implementation. Political decisions on proposing or approving membership are taken by The Council, composed of a Heads of States and Government.

It isn’t President Higgins’ role to comment on plenty of political things, so he doesn’t. By commenting on this, Barrosso has not only interfered in Scottish politics, he has stepped into the shoes of Hermann van Rompuy, President of the Council. He’s doing the job for years, and should absolutely have known better.

Technically maybe he should or should not have said it.To be honest I don’t really care.I find Barroso repulsive.But in this case what he said is accurate and close to the truth.

@al shamen: Technically he should not have involved himself in the debate. There is no “should or should not”. The people of Scotland are bright enough to know what is happening in Madrid without getting veiled threats from an over-zealous EU Commission.

If President Higgins rode into a political debate he’d be dressed down by the Government. A similar rebuke of Barrosso by The Council – or by an EU Head of Government (like our Taoiseach) – should happen here.

Watch the interview.the man was asked a question for his opinion,he answered it.Maybe he should be sent to the Bastille?
Higgins has answered numerous ‘politcal’ questions in his time as president.Bad example.But I understand your point.
The fact is though that his answer was correct.Something that you or my numerous red thumbers above don’t dispute.So how does making a correct and realistic point amount to bullying and threats?

@al shamen: It amounts to bullying and threats because Barroso is the Commission President and has no legal role orinfluence over national governments on this matter. As a former Prime Minister of Portugal Barroso knows the importance of avoiding giving an answer to a contentious question from a journalist. Also, his term as Commission President ends in October 2014, so his meddling in the debate on Scottish national self-determination could cynically be seen as an attempt to win over certain national governments for an EU appointment elsewhere when he steps down from his current role.

But yes, I accept that President Higgins isn’t the most perfect example. Let’s try ex-President Cearbhall (“thundering disgrace”) Ó Dálaigh instead :-)

Realism does not amount to bullying and threats just because you do not like the answer.

Al Shamen: You’re entirely missing the point – Mr Barroso stepped outside his role and should never have said what he did in his official capacity as EU Commission President – David Cameron could go around making public statements undermining political in Ireland, but he doesn’t because it isn’t his role, and to do so would be meddlesome.

Winding down already made the same point which I acknowledged. My point is maybe he should not have said it,but just because he should not of said it,does not make any less true.

why would belgium block it al shamen ?? genuinely wondering,i do agree though it is a certainty that spain will i cant believe how naive the two lads argument are,as if spanish fishermen hold that much sway over the government or that the french have a sense of fairness !!! haha spain will veto for a number of reasons but mainly because they will not want to even remotely encourage or en-flame two regions already on the edge,it really is that simple

Belgium has it’s own problems with secessionists Hibernicus.The Dutch speaking Flanders not wanting to be part of the same nation as French speaking Wallonia and vice-versa.

Obviously you are one of the few commenters on this thread who has a sense of realism.

didnt have a clue about that tbh,must read up on it some more i generally find that type of thing interesting,in my ignorance i always thought flanders was the french speaking part,maybe thats from association with WW1

ah yeah realism is generally not a strong point of the internet,i think they you are right but are too stubborn to admit it,happens to us all in fairness !!

Hibernicus Exul: Flanders is Dutch-speaking and is the industrialised size of Belgium; 60% of Belgians are Flemish. What I’ve learnt from living in Belgium and from having both Flemish and Walloon friends is that there’s a strong sense of inevitability about their nation eventually breaking-up – even from the Walloons who are the ones less wanting to split because they (like Madrid) are economically dependent on the Flemish (Catalans/Basques). They hold the WORLD record on the longest period ever taken to form a national government after parliamentary elections. The only things really tying Belgium together are the monarchy and the “ownership” that of them all feel regarding Brussels (including NATO/EU HQs in it).

Belgium may have its identity issues, but the strength of Flanders’ input into Belgian foreign policy (and Flanders’ and Wallonia’s own regional cooperation with Scotland at lower levels of EU governance) means that Belgium would not use a veto to oppose Scottish EU membership.

Spain is obviously far more complicated, but there’s a growing realisation within national politics that the issue of increased autonomy for Catalonia will not go away. It’s going to come down to a pragmatic weighing of pros and cons for Spain as to how they deal with Scotland, but by that stage Scotland would be independent so the “damage” to Madrid by what Scottish independence symbolises would already be done. I can’t see it being as forgone a conclusion as al shanem is presenting.

Assuming that the Scots voting for independence is the biggest fallacy of all on this thread.Typically Irish people view this issue through the prism of Irish Nationalism,when in reality the situation in Scotland is very different.
The reality is that this vote will come down to simple personal economics.Will Scots view independence as likely to improve their prosperity?Considering Salmonds lack of foresight or vision on the most important issue of all;the currency question,most of them will probably decide to stick with the union.Nobody wants to have the value of their life savings or pension plan wiped out overnight by a politician’s signature.

Barroso Seems To Be the 1 doing the bullying England You’d Expect It From Now Barroso Shows His Imperialistic Views On Scotland a Country That Never Conquered Another Or Slaughtered Innocent People In The Execution Of Same,

thanks eamon that was informative and made sense,though i will do some reading up on it regardless

i do think however you are missing the point,its not about scotland leaving the uk its about them joining the EU,i am suggesting spain would veto that so as to discourage the catalans from getting any notions as in that they can leave spain and then just join up to the EU with no problems and that independence will be easy or prosperous

Maybe it’s a good time now to see if a real Europe can exist … Or just one that supports the old colonial powers of the past

I think the SNP now have a true complaint complaint in Brussels for interference

Al …… What gives you the right to say that irish nationalists can have rights and choices but everything in Scotland is about personal economics …. You just insulted the integrity of a whole country with your narrow mindness

And you also talk about other peoples lack of “foresight”

I think you will find that is highly unlikely the EU will ‘welcome them in’.The Spanish and possibly other would almost certainly block their application.

“The EU would welcome them in.”

That is the point that Barosso is trying to make. To be “welcomed in”, they need the backing of all 28 existing Member States. Spain and possibly Belgium may not vote in favour for fear of setting a precedent in the future.

We’re both speculating here. I doubt that the EU would refuse an application by Scotland to enter the EU. If Spain decided to make it difficult, I believe this would lead to discord and increasing tensions within the union. The Spanish would simply be told to accept it.

The Spanish like every other member has a veto and is free to use that veto.And it’s hardly the only nation with reservations.You are being unrealistic.

I think you are. Suppose for a moment that Scotland votes for its independence. The EU would, in my opinion, go into full damage-limitation mode and probably fast track their entry. The Spanish government would be told, in no uncertain terms, not to rock the boat. If the spanish were allowed to freely exercise their veto, they would have to give internationally justifiable reasons for doing it. “We don’t want the Catalans and Basques getting ideas” is not a good enough reason.

So the loss of the main economic proucing regions in Spain are not good enough reason?Spain is the Eurozones fourth largest economy .If you believe the Eurozones fourth largest economy have less influence then a yet to be born(probably never will be) nation that has not even began accession talks,well then I think you are being incredibly naive.
Also you are been naive if you think the Spanish are the only member who would have reservations about Scottish membership.

You are entitled to your opinion, as am I. Just let’s not, either of us, get confused between our opinions and facts.I used the Spanish because they were the exapmle you used.

You are entitled to you opinion,but are you unalble to answer the question I asked you;
‘So the loss of the main economic proucing regions in Spain are not good enough reason’
I think your opinion is based on unsound reasoning.

You are continuing to speculate, in this case that the Catalan and Basque regions would be successful in seceding from Spain.

Let us talk now of naivety. If you think for one second that the EU would let the Spanish government throw their toys out of the pram and drive the union into even worse turmoil than a Scottish declaration of independence, then you are the naive one. Look what happened here with the Lisbon treaty, our “veto” in this case didn’t matter very much, did it?

If they where given the same vote as the Scottish,their independence would be a certainty.I see you also avoided the fact that Spain are hardly the only nation who would have issues with Scottish accession.
Comparing Ireland with the Eurozones fourth largest economy is also naive.Just like in animal farm all veto’s are equal,but some veto’sare more equal than others.Do you really believe a Irish veto is equivalent to a German or a French one or for that matter a Spanish one?

Scotland has the distinct advantage of being a country in a union, rather than a region with aspirations of independence. The independence of Catalunia and the Basque country would be by no means a certainty.

I have not avoided the issue of other states’ objections; I have merely responded to the specific case you mentioned.

A veto is a veto. Some are more important than others, but all are subsidiary to the EU’s will to remain intact.

I no longer wish to converse with you. Take that as an admission of defeat if you like.

“Proucing”

Interesting point but do you think this will stop Spain using its veto and without Spain’s agreement Scotland cannot join the EU

If the Spanish respected ‘bilateral negotiated or unilateral independence’ then Catalonia and the Basque country would have got a referendum years ago.
If the EU respected democracy rather than ‘democracy as long as it’s the right answer’ then Ireland never would have re-run the Lisbon and Nice referendums.

@Karen

I’m not the biggest fan if the EU in it’s current state either, I like the idea but our politicians got it all wrong once again, having said that an independent Scotland outside the EU treaties with neither Sterling nor EUR for official currency wouldn’t realistically survive, so I don’t think they will have much choice if they vote for independence.

@al shamen

Spain and Belgium are currently in no position to veto anything that France and Germany don’t want, they would threaten to veto and then would be bought off with a few billion they are hardly in any position to refuse

France has it’s own regions such as Corsica and the Basque country who are agitating for independence.France in all likelihood would be in agreement with Spain on this issue.

And I think you will find that the loss of Catalonia,the region with the largest industrial and economic output in Spain could hardly be ‘bought off with a few billion’.

While we are talking realism, yes there are eu countries like spain and belgium who fear the breakup of their nations.
However, if scotlands independence were a done deal, nobody in the eu would want to keep a rich country like Scotland out.
In fact, if Spain were to lose Cataluyna, then they would be the first to open the door to their new neighbour into the Eu.
Better to have then within the same single market.
No different to us fearing Britain leaving the Eu while we remain inside – big loss of open market to us.

@Alan Lawlor

I don’t think you realise the precedent it would set.Independence movements all over Europe would be given new impetus.Catlonia and the Basque country in Spain.Corsica and the Basque country in France,Northern Italy,Sicily,Cornwall,Flanders,Wales there is no end to it.
Brussels desires more centralised control not more fragmentation of an already fragmented union.

The independence movements in Catalonia and the Basque Country of Spain are quite strong. However, if put to a vote I doubt even 10% of the Basque Country in France would be supportive. Possibly only as high as 30% in Corsica. Wales only narrowly voted for an assembly (a step below Scotland’s parliament in terms of the amount of independence it has from Westminster, and Plaid Cymru are on a downward spiral). Cornwall’s only nationalist party, Mebyon Kernow, only ever manage to gain between 5 and 10% of the vote. If independence movements were allowed to declare independence and be recognised as sovereign states, the likelihood is that in Europe today, only the Basque Region of Spain, Catalonia and Flanders would become independent, with Wallonia merging with France. The only other European territories likely to gain independence within the next 10 years are the Faroe Islands and Greenland, neither of which are part of the EU.

The currency is a none issue….. If Scotland wants to deal in bit coins , sterling or the euro it won’t matter ……. They can trade on the open currency market just like any organised group …… If bill gates bought all the sterling tomorrow and held it for a week and offloaded in panic what could the UK govt do ???? ,,,,, nothing only to watch

If China bought all the euro tomorrow and bought bonds in the German govt and the devalued their own money by choice ……… Wake up tomorrow and sell all and re value their currency and buy it all back ……. What can we do …… Nothing ….. So just like Scotland with the North Sea oil it don’t matter who name on the coin

he is right if not off topic,britain is using scare mongering tactics and it is still imperial and bullying thats just not what this article is about

Ah relax girls and get off the journal for five minutes

No that’s Norway

Ok john ……. Corrected …. Thanks …. Second biggest