We need your help now
Support from readers like you keeps The Journal open.
You are visiting us because we have something you value. Independent, unbiased news that tells the truth. Advertising revenue goes some way to support our mission, but this year it has not been enough.
If you've seen value in our reporting, please contribute what you can, so we can continue to produce accurate and meaningful journalism. For everyone who needs it.
Sign in. It’s quick, free and it’s up to you.
An account is an optional way to support the work we do. Find out more.
By continuing, you are indicating that you accept our Terms of Service and Privacy Policy.
LAST UPDATE | 9 Dec 2024
FIANNA FÁIL’S MICHEAL Martin met with Fine Gael’s Simon Harris today in what has been described as a “positive” and “constructive” meeting.
“The Taoiseach and Tánaiste agreed the need for a stable government, underpinned by mutual respect and clear policy direction for the next five years so that it can deliver for the Irish people in face of great challenges,” said a statement issued by the two parties this afternoon.
The two party leaders have now asked their negotiating teams to commence talks tomorrow.
This move signifies government formation talks stepping up a gear, though a question mark hangs over whether a new government can be formed by the new year.
Labour leader Ivana Bacik has said this afternoon that she has contacted the leaders of Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael each by phone and agreed to meet them leader to leader in separate meetings.
Bacik will meet Martin tomorrow at noon and Harris at a time later in the week.
The Labour leader also spoke with the leader of Sinn Fein Mary Lou McDonald about future engagement. Labour’s parliamentary party also agreed with Bacik’s proposal to write to the leaders of the Social Democrats and Green Party to seek further development of a centre-left common platform.
While there has been much speculation about the carving up of ministries and the rotating Taoiseach model, it is understood the focus between Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil is on policy and who will make up the third pillar of the next government.
As reported last week, the two party leaders appear to be optimistic about a stable group of Independent TDs shoring up the numbers, but the Labour Party is still in the mix, with Martin and Harris understood to have discussed their options at today’s meeting.
Martin has already held personal meetings and spoken over the phone with a number of Independents in the last week, with Harris has met with a number of them today.
It is understood the Taoiseach spoke with Wexford TD Verona Murphy this afternoon, and is due to meet with Dublin Bay North TD Barry Heneghan shortly.
Harris will tomorrow meet with the other Independents such as Galway West TD Noel Grealish, Tipperary North’s Michael Lowry, Longford-Westmeath Kevin “Boxer” Moran and Sligo-Leitrim’s Marian Harkin.
Aontú is the latest to join the Dáil technical grouping of Independents, with party leader Peadar Tóibín confirming to The Journal that the party, with two TDs, have joined the ‘Regional Group’.
The group now consists of ten TDs, with eight Independents having agreed to register as a technical group earlier this week. Technical groups are typically formed to increase speaking time for its members in the Dáil.
The eight Independents are Seán Canney, Marian Harkin, Barry Heneghan, Noel Grealish, Michael Lowry, Kevin (‘Boxer’) Moran, Verona Murphy and Gillian Toole.
Tóibín said that he and his party colleague, newly elected Paul Lawless, would not be negotiating government with Fine Gael or the Greens.
Despite recent chatter about Independents, Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael still have a focus on the Labour Party and whether they might be open to forming the next government, despite the Social Democrats stating that they would not join forces with Labour in any talks.
Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael have selected their negotiating teams for the talks over the next number of weeks, these include:
Fianna Fáil:
Fine Gael:
It is understood that those in both parties see there are advantages and disadvantages for going in with a party such as Labour or an amalgamation of Independents.
Throughout the talks there will be a focus on ensuring there are effective structures to ensure accountability and delivery, so as to avoid any banana skins for the next government.
Having effective dispute resolution mechanisms is understood to be of paramount importance.
In terms of parity of esteem, something Harris has been insisting on in recent days, Fianna Fáil is minded for the party to hold more Cabinet positions, as reported by The Journal last week.
Martin confirmed his position on Friday stating that the election result (which gives Fianna Fáil ten seats over Fine Gael) needs to be reflected.
If the rotating Taoiseach mechanism is agreed again, which is not a certainty, then Martin is understood to want to hold the position of Taoiseach first, and for a longer period, with Harris perhaps given the opportunity to step into the role in the final year and a half of the next government term.
The Dáil is set to meet on 18 December, but it is unclear if government formation talks will be completed by then.
To embed this post, copy the code below on your site
The talks are like this… I don’t care about my party’s principles or your party’s principles, I don’t care what the country needs, I just wanna be in power… what about you?
@KTH: That’s about right. The antics of Alan Kelly, after the election is proof. He was looking to cosy up to any party that would have him. Policies didn’t matter. A ministerial job trumps policies. In the end, Ivana had to rein him in, and put him in the dog house. I haven’t heard a tweet from him since
@KTH: this is nothing more than a dictatorship, the people have no escape from these 2 power hungry tyrants.
@Buster Lawless: Hey Buster, still haunting the place I see ;)
Never thought I’d agree with you yet here we are!!
They’ve captured and refuse to relinquish power!
I came up with a test of our politician’s commitment to us if ur interested? A suggestion to fix what’s so broken.
@Chutes: thanks my friend, what about a revolution like in Syria? Are you good with an AK??
@Chutes: I hate posting uninvited links to my thoughts on other websites but my website started as a reaction to many of the comments I would see on here tbh, the comments section wasn’t enough to articulate my reactions to things so I did something like this to try and respond to the arguments often made here in isolation to questionable effect unless the intent is to confuse issues and people; any way https://greenlens.ie/2024/12/08/reforming-political-compensation-a-path-to-true-public-service/
@Buster Lawless: I’m weapons trained yes.
@KTH: No doubt you are taking about Ms McDonald. Same attitude as McGuinness, Adams and Paisley. They dragged on the terror campaign until they destroyed the moderates and landed cushy jobs as MLAs. The Chuckle Brothers laughing at their electorate.
@Vincent Alexander: what planet are you on ,a total rewrite of history from the loyalist,lol
@Buster Lawless: agreed, people in North Korea nearly have as much democracy as we do.
@Chutes: I salute you soldier.
@Buster Lawless: talking to yourself again,chutes and the doe family and many more FAKE ACCOUNTS,,,,
@sean weir: It’s SF that is trying to to rewrite history. There were numerous times that peace could have been achieved but it didn’t suit the PIRA until they destroyed the SDLP and the likes of McGuinness got cushy jobs as MLAs. As regards living on another planet I lived through the period . Are you now living in one of those places in the North that are awash with Hamas flags.
@Buster Lawless: Typical SF/PIRA mindset if they cannot win with the ballot box use the Armalite and then wonder why democratic parties want nothing to do with them.
@KTH:
Sorry for you loss.
@KTH: Well your positive contribution on here displays an intelligence that has me so grateful your not a participant
So excited that these two are meeting to discuss how they screw over the Irish people for another 5 years.
@Ger Whelan: How are you screwed over?
@David Glynn: I said the Irish people didn’t I?. And I do consider spending over 300 grand on a bike shelter, 1.2 million on security hut, and all the other ridiculous waste of tax payers money while thousands of tax payers are struggling for the basics as screwing us over.
@Ger Whelan: has the country ever been wealthier?
@Paul Fahey: Ask the working families who are now forced to choose between eating or heating their homes, because government inaction has allowed costs to spiral. Ask the tens of thousands of people who are homeless how wealthy this country is.
@Paul Fahey: The country economically hasn’t but it’s people is a different story. It kinda takes away from how well the “country” is doing. We’d all have a lot more money in our pockets if the govt didn’t help bankrupt the country. Many others would have a lot more money in their pocket if FG didn’t let the REITs go to town and if they didn’t something to fix housing in 2011. The amount of waste and overspending in govt also hits its people in the pocket. Many state services have been run into the ground. Infrastructure under invested in and allowed to rot. We also have a massive national debt…… That wealth you mentioned masks so many issues and means little of these lads in charge don’t know how to manage it!!!
@Ger Whelan: rather than trot out the bike shelter for 5 years, have you a few other examples of waste recently and what you would do differently?
@another one? what’s going on is the semi state sec: actually the people have never been wealthier. Tell me a time where they were wealthier with even a remotely close standard of living.
@Ben dover: there are many many examples. My personal favourite has to be the near 1 million euros spent on a printer. What would i do differently? So many things for starters I would break up the HSE. Get rid of the top heavy management and actually improve our health service. I would ban vulture funds from purchasing our homes, I’d ban build to rent properties allowing people to actually purchase properties at affordable prices .I’d also put a price cap on energy prices.
@Paul Fahey: Probably a few years before the crash. We have record homelessness figures. People are struggling to stay a float. Record rents, record housing prices which greatly reduce peoples disposable income. There was a time when you could buy a home on one salary, now you need 2 very good ones. That’s the stuff that eats into your standard of living…… There’s a great divide in this country with those that are doing well in the back of the economy and then there’s the majority that are struggling!!!
@Ger Whelan: Do you think SF will do any better? A waiting list of144 wks for a general medical appointment, delays and overruns in the new Belfast maternity hospital and if they get their united Ireland it will cost us taxpayers some estimates are as high as 20 billion a year for 20 years. All this where they are currently in government or their policy. Majority here do not want them in government. Bilingual street signs their biggest achievement to date.
@Vincent Alexander: where did I mention SF?. You seem to have a rather unhealthy obsession with them.
@David Glynn: Seriously!. Do you want a list?.
@Ger Whelan: Don’t bother replying to the “Daves” – they’re ret*rded
@another one? what’s going on is the semi state sec: laughable, so, I will ask it another way; when have the people of Ireland had so much? When have they lived longer? When have more been employed? When has the average wage been as high? To state we were better off before the crash is crazy, because the money was not there, it was all borrowings and ponzi type notions.
Further, the same two parties were largely the govt back then too, so please explain.
@Paul Fahey: If a measure of wealth is how much taxes you pay on a moderate income then yes we are very wealthy
@Paul Fahey: “the people have never been wealthier”…. Laughable. The top 5% have never been wealthier!!!!… You must be missing the articles of the rent crisis. Are those renters paying extortionate rent wealthy? The housing crisis with huge house prices needing two incomes to get a mortgage, are they as wealthy as they could be when most of their money is going to a bank and a builder? “Full employment” doesn’t mean wealthy citizens when the majority are living paycheck to paycheck… Who benefits from all this corporate tax wealth? Not the majority of its citizens who are still paying austerity taxes. Not the infrastructure which is rotting. Just the usual cronies, bankers, developers and anyone with a govt contract!!! You might want to take a peek outside the bubble you’re living in
Excellent photo. It’s like SH is thinking about asking MM something. A kind of favour :D
And as each day passes
THE CRISIS IN HOUSING DEEPENS
Did Fine Gael
Not just come 3rd
@Kevin O Brien: In seats yes but 2nd in votes 40,000 more than SF.
@Paul O’Mahoney: by that same measure, Hilary Clinton beat Trump in 2016.
@Balloon Boy: We don’t have the same system as the US . It’s possible to have more votes and not win. FG had more votes but 1 seat less. It’s not difficult to understand.
Martin: Will we just carry on as we were?
Harris: Yeah, eff them
Martin: Eff them
*Clink brandy glasses*
@Rachel Mountney: that’s obviously what the majority of the electorate wanted though, isn’t it?
Their agenda should be keeping money in ireland to pay for public facilities and well being of Irish state and citizens . All money earned in Ireland should be inspected and taxed to avoid loopholes. Why would US. German or Saudi citizens benefit from property assetts speculation in Ireland
It’s so interesting to see which articles comments are allowed on. Very easy to see who is paying the bills. Journalism and free speech?? Pah!
They should get married! They are not short of it any how!!!
This ridiculous charade is getting on my nerves.
Birds of a feather…
Their meeting was Positive i.e. they want cabinet posts again.
@Garreth Byrne: yes, that’s why political parties exist: to get into power and implement their policies. Otherwise, what’s, the point of having political parties?
@Dermot Blaine: Your last sentence makes a lot of sense.
Like Fianna Gael was ever in doubt. Wave gopdbye to your respectives partiez
@Brian D’Arcy: Gopdbye partiez
Charade. 2 cheeks 1 arse pretending that they are different entities. Only difference is that each has more pus filled pimples than other at times.
There is a need now to form a durable government that takes into account what people most need on the housing and health front. A change of emphasis is badly needed. A return to power of the previous parties cannot be a continuation of past management of our affair’s..
Has any body noticed how each and every pro SF post gets around 350 likes? As regards the talks, the problem for them isn’t each other, it is the third element. From their point of view, the last thing they need is an opposition within the govt itself. From our point of view, we need a non SF opposition. Here’s hoping that potential members of this don’t get bought off (I’m not holding my breath).
@Alan: I noticed that myself. It only encourages me to keep commenting!
@Dave G Doe: SF have a media big project based up in Belfast.
@Alan: You need a non-Sinn Féin opposition so as not to highlight how Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil are one and the same. The majority of youth voted Sinn Féin. So much better knowing that Sinn Féin are coming to power in the next 10-15 years and like your own parties, you can’t see beyond your own nose. You don’t need to be psychic to figure that one out.
@Brian D’Arcy: do you have official figures to back up your claim.
@Brian D’Arcy: if the numbers keep dropping as they are for SF they wont be going anywhere. You dont need to a psychic to see that. What we need is serious opposition here. Sf have proven not to be this.
Steady as she goes, lads. Keep the shinners and other noisy ideologues out of government. Better for everyone.
@honey badger: Ha ha, oh the fear, you know Sinn Féin will be in power in the next ten years without realising how Sinn Féin have pushed Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil into a position where they can’t claim to be two searate parties and yet you lap it up. If you had a brain you’d be dangerous ha ha.
@Brian D’Arcy: You’re very excitable, Brian. One-fifth of the comments on this article are yours. The lads in Serbia will have to up their game now!
First big topic of Government formation by FF and FG. Get a small amount of TD’s , look at their taxing policy and then bring them on board and implement their tax plan and come the next General Election, that party or independents will be annihilated by the electorate.
@Tommy: Hopefully it’s former Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil TD’S, sorry, independents and Aontù have thrown their hat into the ring who’s sole policies ate anti-abortion and anti-immigration, pretty much sums up independents outside of the left wishing us to go back to the way we were when we were the poorest country in Europe, yet they weren’t poor, the irony.
@Dave G Doe: no your looking in the mirror you d.i.c.k
Great news
@Dave G Doe: except in opposition,Dope ha ha, pushing Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil to amalgamate or die ha ha
FF/FG/II would be an awesome government
@Fintan Pox: So fantastic the last time that neither could get into government on their pwn never mind together. Your day has bben and good, the cpuntry no longer wants, I hope independents go in with them so can be wiped out, that is the former Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil independents. The irony, using Lowry to do this, read the moriarty report and tell me that he didn’t sell.a state contract. ‘Lowry does everything in Tipp’ why, it’s stuck back in the ’50′s.
@Brian D’Arcy: and the beauty of it all is, no shinners lol
@Fintan Pox: kicking the can down the road, with Sinn Féin coming knnthe nect 10-15 years. What is deliciously ironic is how Sinn Féin have forced Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil into an amalgamte or die position. Brains of a dying hen Pox.
@Brian D’Arcy: they are not SF thank goodness children will be safe from their touching hands.
@Brian D’Arcy: you’re talking to fintan Pox. Difficult to find you serious now.
Knnthe nect 10-15 years. Your crystal ball is drunk.
Don’t care , Rugger season is underway, off to the Maldives after the Crimbo , life is good .
@Ray Buckley: Sounds magical Ray, don’t worry about the rest of us peasants, quietly going about our business.
@Freda Peeple: Says you that is so easily willing to attack immigrants so as the rich can keep maintaining control tye money you claim immigrants get. So easily and willinhly used. Tell me why we are the fourth worst for wealth distribution in the EU? Tell me why we’re the ninth biggest tax haven in the world, all the immigrant’s fault though, clueless.
@Freda Peeple: Ah a little bit of sarcasm never hurt anyone, Happy Christmas.
@Brian D’Arcy: Calm down Karen, you are dribbling on your keyboard again. I’m pro immigrant, but Ireland can’t take anymore in until we can cope with what we have taken already.
@Freda Peeple: “I’m pro immigrant” – did you type that with a straight face?
@Kevin Kerr: Go away you little lonely man, I am pro immigration, 5 out of 14 lads I employ are immigrants, I don’t agree with plantation centers or tripping over immigrants doing drugs in tents along our streets though,, We have taken too many unskilled chancers into Ireland. The lads I have, 2 of them are jumping through hoops trying ti buy houses and secure citizenship. Nothing was handed to them.
@Freda Peeple: ah would ya get outta here, you’re rewriting your own history. Bye now, you lonely little person
@Kevin Kerr: Never once said I was against migration you frail husk of a man, I am against the sudden thousands of MEN arriving with nothing to offer the country. You should go out and picket outside the welfare office so Joseph Poulanis parents aren’t going hungry during the court case.. you know that unemployed chap that had €350000 in his house alongside the severed heads of his victims in sligo. They are the types I’m against.
@Brian D’Arcy: the uneducated are always willing to jump on the anti-immigration bandwagon
@Freda Peeple: you’re insane
In other news, earlier reports that Bashar Al-Assad had turned up at Catherine Connollys constituency office have proven to be unfounded. (His feud with Jacob Rees Mogg for the title of ‘worlds most haunted pencil’ continues.)
Back to you in studio…
@honey badger: Get some new material. Catherine is a sincere Irish political voice, representing the views of many Irish people. She is a pacifist. You, on the other hand, are a US/UK/Israeli war crime apologist and propagandist.
@Darth O’Leary: Ah yes, the crestfallen tankie is back! Why has St.Catherine scrubbed any reference to Syria from her Twitter? Luckily, people have kept the receipts!
( If anyone wants a laugh, ask tankie o’leary here why he calls the documented use of chemical weapons against civilians in Syria by Assad “western propaganda.” You never appreciate the tankie mind until its forced to break cover)
@honey badger: Robert Fisk would never be accused of being pro western, he was dubious about the claims of Assad using chemical weapons.
Good to know bacik is trying to carry on the liebour tradition of slow bicycle race negotiations and trying to cover all bases,,, Pathetic!
There are some very strong headwinds on the horizon and I hope our government have secure seat belts!!
They need to do form the government quickly – asylum seekers arrive in tens of thousands and have to sleep in tents. Time to open Thornton Hall and Crown Paints asylum centres asap. Roderick O’Gorman should retain his ministerial job to house people he invited.
@Sergej Simonov: The irony, the attitude of those who greeted the Itish, oh, you forget about Irish immigration to Angl9-Saxon countries, half a million during the recession created by the bubble which is forming again in regards to properties and their prices and no, the Irish weren’t saint’s at all when they left as you might like to make out.
FF and FG know that Irish people are like black people in America. They will keep on voting for them no matter what. People don’t trust SF but keep voting for the same shit every 5yrs. I think it’s time to try something new even though SF is not trustworthy. Let’s give them 5yrs I am sure it can’t be worse than the last century of FF and FG
have your say