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ALL BUSINESSES THAT sell their goods online to the European Union will be subject to new tax rules from today.
From now on digital products will be taxed at the VAT rate applicable in the consumer’s member state rather than the seller’s.
The rules are being introduced to stop companies that trade online – from multinationals like Amazon, Apple and Google to start-up businesses – from routing purchases through low-VAT countries such as Luxembourg.
VAT on digital products such as e-books, music downloads and apps was previously charged in the country of the supplier. However, from today VAT will be payable in the country where the digital product is bought.
Kenneth O’Flynn, Deputy Lord Mayor of Cork, said the move represents the EU’s “relentless desire to increase its take from VAT”.
This means Irish SMEs potentially have to charge and account for up to 75 different VAT rates in 28 countries.
This new Brussels tax grab will without doubt force thousands of micro-businesses to shut down.
O’Flynn said he has written to the European Commission to express his concerns.
Back in October, Finance Minister Michael Noonan said that the change is actually a good thing for Irish businesses.
“This VAT change means that member states will lose VAT revenue in respect of existing outward sales to consumers in other Member States but will gain revenue in respect of inward sales to their own consumers of these services,” Noonan said in the Dáil.
The new rules will level the playing field in Europe by removing the incentive for companies to locate in low VAT rate jurisdictions, which should enhance Ireland’s attractiveness for e-services companies.
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Good man! My opinion of he man just went up
@Frank Duffy: Mine went down. FF won’t be getting my vote anymore.
@Frank Duffy: I’ve always loved “He-man”.
@Frank Duffy: because he sided with what he believes to be the popular opinion
@Frank Duffy: Mine too. Can’t have been easy for him, having buried 2 children.
@Frank Duffy: Don’t kid yourself Frank. Nearly every politician has backtracked on what they were saying a few years back because of recent polls. Every political party has been running polls to see what the electorate is thinking.. Every single one of them is a snake in the grass..
@David Garland: yeah. God forbid they’d side with public opinion
@Frank Duffy: what else did ye expect from the flip flop man….
@oh i dunno: I don’t think its public opinion to kill unborn babies..
@ginger tomatoes i9: Ah, that is what a public representative is supposed to do isnt it?
To represent his electorates views?
@Frank Duffy: While I dont agree with him, I respect democracy. Let the people speak. Respect everyones opinion. Accept the outcome. Keep it civil.
@David Garland: If it’s unborn, it’s not a baby. It’s a fetus, embryo etc
@Frank Duffy: it’s just dawned on him which side the greater vote is on. F’all to do with what he thinks is right.
Another flip flop as with water charges.
@Frank Duffy: my opinion went down. Are we to believe that all this occured to him only recently and it’s not more a matter of seeing an electoral advantage. Leo will follow suit soon enough. More opportunism and a lack of principles by our “leaders”
@The Risen: it still a human though.
Ever seen a 12 week scan? It’s a human and thats what people are being asked to end. All the nother and baby sites refer to unborn as a baby not a “foetus” inside you.
From mother and baby.co.uk:
Your 12-week scan can take place any time between 11 and 13 weeks. It’s amazing to think that at this point, your baby is fully formed. So you can see all his organs, muscles, limbs and bones are in place, and the sex organs are well developed.
A black and white image of your baby will appear on the ultrasound screen, which the sonographer will position so they get a good view.
@Johnny Bellew: They never did !
@Greg Kelly: Did you REALLY just post a paragraph from a mother and baby site to prove the meaning of a term, rather than from a dictionary or medical source?
@The Risen: yep I did. It’s what the average person calls a human in the womb, not a foetus in the womb. I have yet to ever hear one woman say she can feel her foetus kicking!
That’s all.
LOL! All hail greg. Self appointed spokesman for ‘the average person’.
@Johnny Bellew: that’s democracy, John. I think he’s somewhat redeemed – but there are still some in the party who don’t trust women. Suppose you could vote for them – or Sinn Fein – most of their victims are adults.
@Greg Kelly: i’ve yet to hear one woman saying that she can feel the person kicking inside of her..however,i have heard a woman saying that the foetus is kicking away…
I’ve always found you to be one of the most adorable posters that we get on here…PS.You don’t quote Ronnie Reagan anymore.That is so sad..
@Michael Carty: What about the democratic values of FF as enunciated at their recent Ard Fheis—-Martin has boo booed on this one
Excellent. Its about time Women received the respect they deserve in this country!
@Steph Duffy: I think the law should be amended to allow for choice but respect for women continues to decline due to our permissive society.
@Steph Duffy: i’m sure the dead babies will be more than happy to pay the price for this “respect”.
@Steph Duffy: it’s time to uphold the respect we have for human life in this country.
@Rob Mahony: That is todays self-absorbed, self-centred society – they literally don’t care about the unborn human life.
@Steph Duffy: The ones disagreeing with you, or have something negative to say are all men. They don’t understand that this is primarily a woman’s right to choose, and a woman’s health issue.
None of them will every get pregnant.
@Virtual Architect: What aspects of ‘our permissive society’ should be rolled back do you think?
@Dave Doyle: A womans choice to kill her unborn, you mean.
@Johnny Bellew: calm down and stop being such an arsehole
@Johnny Bellew: Dave knows more about this subject than you’ll probably ever know..
. I go to bed everynight with my only scan of my little boy. My partner at the time miscarried under 3 months. In my head it my little boy, I know I didn’t know the sex , but the pain and love for this poor baby is indescribable I guess my point is the pain never leaves you . It’s always there. I was the victim of rape as a 7 year old. It was as you can imagine destroying that is with me to this day but by all accounts i worked out fine if you wanna call it that compared to others. Rape especially for a woman, I can only imagine is destroying, especially a pregnancy through rape. I guess I have gone of track but just wanna say my little man that I lost, is the first and last thing in my head every day and I only wish he got to meet his dad and mam to show him him how much we love him.
@Johnny Bellew: You don’t look like a woman,so it’s bone of your concern.
@Steph Duffy: what about respect of men and unborn babies
@Dave Doyle: was a man not involved? It is his child also does he have no SAY?
@Johnny Bellew: Today’s self-absorbed, self-centred society? Abortion has been around for thousands of years!
@Shane Browne: ahhh ,Shane..but ..but…but..yah..ok.
@Rob Mahony: what about the dead bodies in the septic tank in Tuam, what respect did they get?
@Mark Murphy: just to add to that. No matter what there is no such thing as impossible. People are here for you and always will be. That little baby even though you may be told it’s not a baby just cells is a baby. Please think hard and long
@Mark Murphy: absolutely beautiful comments about a little man that you never got to hold.
@Denis Silver: thanks man. My story is I’m sure one of 1000′s. However he is in a frame beside my bed forever now. I just want to humanise the situation as too many people don’t humanise it.
@Mark Murphy: we too lost our beloved little girl due to a fatal abnormality, she would be almost 4 now. We have other children including a baby boy our youngest born very premature, he has health problems and we seem to spend at least one day a week in crumlin, but according to some on here babies (and that’s what the are) like our son are better off been killed as they are a drain on health services. Apologies I degrees, my sincere condolences to you and your baby’s mom, it never leaves but I think my little angel is watching over me and her mom and siblings daily.
@Brian Madden: Relevance?
@Steph Duffy: Pity approx half of them will end up in the abortionists bucket.
@Rob Ryan: troll much ?
@dec dunne: sorry to hear your loss man. The pain never stops I guess you just deal with it in a different way. I’m sure your little girl is your Angel now taking care of ye all. And your 100% she was a baby and so was my little man, they were not stats or drains as people call them. Chin up
@Seamus Mc Meel: I’m not expressing an opinion on the matter in question, but regarding your comment – it’s not 100% about “the Women”.
Men are fully entitled to express an opinion at the very least – they have an input into these situations after all
@Steph Duffy: Women who knowingly kill their unborn babies for selfish reasons do not deserve respect.
@Patric Cooney: it’s time to uphold the respect we should have for human life that already exists in this country.
@Jengis O’Can: “kill their unborn babies” -aww bless your cotton socks..What is ‘selfish’ about protecting your physical & mental health ?
Respect, ladies.
The so called Prof life crowd are going to have a stroke over this.
@Barry Somers: most of them are close to death anyway
@Barry Somers: you don’t think the pro life crowd are pro life?
@Patric Cooney: no they are not pro life. They should be called anti choice.
They do not care what conditions a child grows up in just want to force women to carry a foetus to term.
@Patric Cooney: not when it comes to migrants in the middle of the Med.No.
@Barry Somers: up the Rebels..
@Kevin Geraghty: that’s a massively sweeping statement on a large portion I society. I’m sure there are many different views that people within the pro life camp hold towards the social structures which help those in need, both at home and abroad.
@Patric Cooney:
The claim Ireland is abortion free when its nothing of the sort.
They refuse to lobby government to charge women who use abortion pills or who travel for abortions. All the time they claim abortion is murder.
Why don’t they lobby for changes?
Because the know the public backlash would be massive against them. If any woman received any jail time for having an abortion or using pills in this country the public backlash would be massive. It would force change, change they don’t want.
So instead they are happy to falsely claim Ireland is abortion free while having no issues with women travelling for abortions or using pills.
@Kevin Geraghty:
As the always apt George Carlin said
“They’re not pro choice, they’re anti-women. Simple as that. They believe the primary role of a woman is to function as a brood mare for the state”
@Barry Somers: is it possible that pro lifers are compassionate towards women and don’t want hurt them further by imprisioning them?
They take aim at those in sound mind performing abortions.
Once again though I’m sure there are some in the camp that are seeking to stop the travel for abortion or pills.
@Patric Cooney: You’re not “pro-life” You’re Pro-Birth. And in most cases Pro-Birthers don’t care SFA about the child after it’s born.
@Patric Cooney: So you’re saying that any woman or girl seeking an abortion isn’t ‘in sound mind?’ You don’t feel that’s just a bit hugely patronising?
@Mack:
A lot of people including me will take offense at being referred to as brood mares for the State. The majority of people want children and welcome them.
@Mack: what would you say to someone who supports a woman’s right to choose who she has sex with, who believes in the freedom of contraception, who believes a woman should be allowed to get her tubes tied if she wants. Do we believe women should be brood mare?
@Dave Doyle: why am I pro birth but not pro life? How do you know I’m not a full blown socialist or communist who wants to give every child free everything?
@David On Tour: I’m saying te majority of people who make the choice are in a dark and difficult place.
I just can’t win sometimes…people will tell me these women are vulnerable and need protecting so should get the choice but when I say it it’s incorrect?
@Barry Somers: Surely everyone pro-life?
@Patric Cooney: Yes I think we can go with ‘hugely patronising.’
Any woman deciding to have an abortion is doing so for her own reasons. It isn’t up to you or I to judge those reasons or deny choices.
@David On Tour: I notice you didn’t say I was you. You jut doubled down calling me patronising.
I’m all for choices, birth control, sleep with who you want, get your tunes tied if you like.
Do you support a woman’s right to choice when she’s in the 38th week of gestation? If not why not?
@Patric Cooney: I support the law as currently exists in France, Germany, Sweden & at least a dozen other European countries, which is up to 12 weeks.
You don’t appear to support a woman’s right to choose at any point, regardless of their reasons, situation or wishes. Why do you wish to deny women and girls that choice?
@Aine O Connor: yes wine that is correct but there are also women who don’t ant to continue with their pregnancy. These women should not be forced to carry on with the pregnancy.
@Patric Cooney: If you were, you wouldn’t be using the words “socialist” or “communist” or talking about “free everything”.
What yo sound like with your preaching is , a dyed in the wool backward thinking conservative reactionary, a pro-birther that as soon as a child was born would be demanding it pays its way.
@Dave Doyle: He sees the zygote as a human “life” that shouldn’t be removed from the woman’s womb.He doesn’t care for the pregnant woman.She has one job to do.Give natural birth.That’s it .Doesn’t matter if it will destroy her .
@David On Tour: I’ve listed multi options I believe women should avail of.
Will you answer my question? Why not 13 weeks? Or 30?
@Dave Doyle: call me what you want I’m just trying to figure out how you define pro lifers and pro birthers. By the sounds of it is it directly based on how much assistant/free services you give people in society.
@Francis Mc Carthy: I don’t know from where or understand from where he gets his convictions from. But he has no respect for women as human beings. He reduces them to the status of an incubator, a machine.
@Dave Doyle: We’re just arguing over language here and calling each other of names. Can we just boil the discussion down to where it always ends up? – at what point does it become unacceptable to have an abortion?
@Patric Cooney: What?? Are you saying now that women have the right to choose what option they should avail of?
If this is what you’re saying, and i sincerely hope you are. Then i applaud you for such a change in what appeared to be a strongly held position.
But will you please try and understand what the women of the Repeal the 8th actually want. None of them are demanding abortion on demand. That’s not what the movement is all about. What they want is the the 8th repealed so as to give women the right to choose what is best for them re their mental and physical health when pregnant. They want an end to Irish women having to travel to the UK for an abortion when that is in their best interests. They want an end to women dying in hospital because of the restrictions imposed by the 8th amendment. The want to be afforded the respect as human beings to make their own decisions.
So i’m not going to say what i believe is the right option for women to avail of. I’m not a woman, never in my life will i have to make that ultimate decision. But i support 100% any woman’s right to decide for herself.
@Dave Doyle: I’ve already told my young teenage daughter to ignore any word that ever comes out these peoples gobs..She also knows that if anything ever happened in her life that we would always be there for her…as you know only too well,Dave,anything can go wrong …life ain’t simple…
@Francis Mc Carthy: you should tell your daughter to hear all ideas and make up her mind. Ignorance is the enemy of truth.
@Dave Doyle: I’m saying I support a women’s right to avoid pregnancy at all cost as it harms nobody. But once she is pregnant I do not support her choice to abort as it ends a human life.
You won’t have to make the decision yes, but you will support the legislation. So would you support legislation that allows unrestricted abortion up to 38 weeks?
@Kevin Geraghty: Massive sweeping statement. Care to back it up with evidence? I don’t have any problem with being called anti-choice. I don’t think anyone should have the choice to end the life of another human being.
@Patric Cooney: i’m not going to be telling you all of the conversations that i’ve ever had with my daughter ..bit of advice to you;don’t go by just the one comment..
@Francis Mc Carthy: I can’t understand in this day and age why anyone see’s women as other than human beings first and foremost. With all the rights that all human beings have.
Good advice to your daughter, she should be proud of you. Nothing in life is black or white, and never written in stone. No one knows what’s around the corner for them.
@Patric Cooney: she’s not looking for your support,though.
@Patric Cooney: I will support the legislation if that is what women consider is in their best interests. I don’t decide for women.
What you support is not what women are looking for. How do you not understand that? And as a man you will never have to make that decision for any reason EVER.
@Dave Doyle: what if I told you women were as divided on the issue as men? Would you support those women who are calling for abortion to continue to be illegal? After all that’s what “women are looking for”.
@Francis Mc Carthy: you said you’re going to tell her not to listen to people.
How about teaching your daughter that if an idea is correct it can stand up to scrutiny. I’m sure you’re not raising a fool. So how about trust your daughter to hear all side of an issue and make up her own mind?
@Mack: as a father of 5 daughters and prolife as are those old enough in my home to understand, your ignorant comment just shows how uneducated the pro killing children brigade are.
@Patric Cooney: yup,and i’ll say it again to her.Have I told you the rest of the conversation that we had on this topic ,no ? I won’t, either..
@dec dunne: “your ignorant comment just shows how uneducated the pro killing children brigade are” <- that gave me a chuckle.Thanks.
@Francis Mc Carthy: you told her not to listen to some people’s views. Did you contradict this later on and tell her to listen to people’s arguments? If my my point is still relevant.
@Patric Cooney: I know there are women who don’t support the Repeal the 8th movement. I wish we heard their views here this evening.
I support the Repeal the 8th movement. I support women as human beings to decide what is best for them, to be free to make their own choices, and have the support needed in place for whatever they decide.
In my opinion this issue should be taken out of the constitution in the first place and be dealt with by way of legislation. But our governments are to cowardly to do so. It’s a very divisive issue. But in the end, you either have respect for and trust in women as being capable of knowing what is best for them as women. Or you dont. You and me, don’t realise just how lucky we are.
@Dave Doyle: please please please do me one favour and answer my following question.
If you support a woman’s right to choose do you support her right to choose all the way up until birth? Please don’t tell me it’s a false equivalency or say it’s not the issue. Please just give me a yes or no and explain why.
@Patric Cooney: as i said to you earlier in the thread,iwill not be telling you the rest of the conversation we had together,nor will i tell you what she said back to me…Sometimes as parents we have to point out cruel people and the cruel things that they can say to people.When you grow up a we bit more you’ll might get to understand where i’m coming from,,
Hey Patric,do you support a law in which a woman should get the death penalty for procuring an abortion ?
@Patric Cooney: Do any of the people on this site who are pro life do anything to help children in need? Do you donate to organisations that help disadvantaged/abused children? Do you donate your time or are you too busy leaving comments on the Journal. Talk is cheap.
After a research poll told him to…
@Ruaidhrí Mc Ruaidhrí: Exactly. No moral principles whatsoever.
@Johnny Bellew: Surely he should be commended for changing his opinion after such a poll?
@Alan: quite the opposite. morality shouldnt be a popularity contest.
@Alan: No. A gutless wonder.
@Alan: Absolutely not Alan. Weather vane politicians cause untold harm the country.
@Johnny Bellew: A poor Johnny,don’t worry,he can go to confessions and the sky fairy will forgive him!
@Ruaidhrí Mc Ruaidhrí: I’ll say it again
elected officials are SUPPOSED to represent the electorate. If the electorate is saying the eighth amendment should go, then it would be wrong of Martin not to represent this
@Dave Harris: Completely 110% wrong Dave. That is EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE of what they’re supposed to do.
They are supposed to do what THEY think is best. NOT what they’re told. The only exception is when a democratic referendum is held and they must abide by the will of the people.
At every other time – the will of the people is not relevant. They often have to do unpopular things for the benefit of the country.
@Ruaidhrí Mc Ruaidhrí: Leo V is waiting for a poll of polls
@Dave Harris: Thats the purpose of the referendum which FG and LEO are calling, to establish the choice of the majority of the electorate
Ohhhhhh about time
@Johnny Bellew: Giving women the right to choose is going to start killing??? You really have no respect for women, do you?
@Johnny Bellew:
That’ll be none of your business Johnny or mine or anyone else’s for that matter. If you’re compelled to stick your nose into others peoples business I suppose you could always stand outside some clinics shaking your fists at pregnant women you never met before.
@Johnny Bellew: entirely up to the individual Johnny..
@Johnny Bellew: what a horrible person you are… on your bike you and the likes of you.
@Dave Doyle: I can make the exact same argument.
People should be allowed to choose whether or not to shoot each other in the head. It’s not our place to decide, it’s theirs.
You don’t agree? You therefore do not respect the citizens of this country to make up their own minds.
Tell me why this argument is any different to what you just said.
@Johnny Bellew: Abortion is here – nothing you say or think will change that
@Patric Cooney: the logic here is so twisted I’m lost for words.
@Patric Cooney: If you either cannot, or refuse to understand that the Repeal the 8th is all about respecting the right of women to choose what is best interests. And affording that right by voting to Repeal the 8th.
There’s no one in the Repeal the 8th movement talking about killing anyone.
It would seem the only ones obsessed with killing are the Pro-Birthers.
@Patric Cooney: Is it selfish for you to want to keep your blood, tissue, and organs? Or do you think it’s acceptable for other people to take these things from you without your consent as long as it’s saving lives? If an already born person isn’t entitled to use someone else’s body without consent even if their life depends on it, why would an “unborn person” be entitled to this?
@Francis Mc Carthy: because the unborn person didn’t put themselves into the position. They were put in the position by the mother and father and therefore it’s their responsibility. If you drink drive and knock me down, crippling me, you own that responsibility. Actions have consequences, avoid them at all costs but once the consequences occur ending a life shouldn’t be an option.
@Patric Cooney: are you comparing the termination of a pregnancy to a traffic accident? Iris women are having abortions and will continue to have them. we are happy to ship these women off to the uk so that we can proclaim that ireland is abortion free. ireland is not abortion free. many women are obtaining pills from the internet.
@Patric Cooney: when she consented to have sex it didn’t mean that she consented to pregnancy.Realistically,only around 10%-20% of people probably do that..We mostly have sex to enjoy it,Patric…you know this…
@Brian Madden: Yes I am compairing the two to show that actions have consequences you must accept.
Most people’s concern with legalising abortion here isn’t that the women who would have gone to the UK will just get one here. It’s that the number of abortions will increase as it has done so in every country it’s been introduced into.
@Francis Mc Carthy: when you get into a car you don’t consent to crash. But accidents happen. Avoid accidents at all cost. Put a seatbelt on, go on the pill. But terminating a human life in order to avoid an accident isn’t ok.
@Patric Cooney- “avoid accidents at all costs” -but accidents happen,and when they do,you take the best healthcare option that is open to you..At the moment,the best healthcare option is either,an illegal abortion or a trip to the UK…I would prefer that the woman gets the best healthcare in her own country..
@Dave Doyle: If they’re not talking about killing , they don’t know what abortion is. What about what’s best for the child in the womb?
@Francis Mc Carthy: When accidents happen take all best option available to you? What if you’ve have an accident and need a new organ? If there’s none available you don’t take somebody else’s if it means they die. Exact same situation.
@Patric Cooney: but we’re talking about where a woman CAN get the healthcare that IS required..
You’ve lost this one.
Very sad to see.
@Johnny Bellew: I’m not sure they’re looking forward to the killing exactly. I think they’re more looking forward to having decreased responsibility and having their nihilistic and hollow world view reaffirmed
@Patric Cooney: You are probably correct in that analysis. SHAME on them all.
@Johnny Bellew: You keep going about “killing” when’s the massacre about to take place?
I think those who believe it’s a moral right for women to choose what is best for them, will be the ones rubbing their hands.
@Dave Doyle: he seems to have changed his mind in the 20mins since he said that…
@Johnny Bellew: Johnny I do wonder about people like you. Do you actually want to retain the 8th or are you just a troll?
Because the language you use, the pejorative, the name calling, all of it just shows a total lack of consideration for the fact that this debate will be won by convincing undecideds.
Every time you talk about killing and murder and so on – an undecided thinks “pro lifers are all ridiculous and unreasonable”.
Leads me to believe you don’t actually want to retain the 8th.
@Dave Doyle: just because you don’t witness or hear the voices of survivors of a massacre doesn’t mean it didn’t happen.
Let’s get down to the actually issue though and stop arguing over the language. At what point do you take the right of a woman to choose what’s best for her away? 12 weeks into gestation? 22 weeks? 39 weeks? Post birth?
@Patric Cooney: As a man i’ll never have to take any decision re being pregnant so i have no right to assume for any woman. This is all about a woman’s right to choose.
I fully support women in that right.
@Patric Cooney: Stick to the facts.Abortion before the 12th week& for medical reasons after that
@Dave Doyle: the guy has gone full nuts now with his ‘post birth’ bollicks..
@Francis Mc Carthy: well I’m trying to figure out why you’re not furious that abortion isn’t being proposed up to 12 weeks and a day. Or even up to the day of birth. Is it not a great injustice that women don’t have that option?
Hypotheticals expose holes in logic. If you idea doesn’t stand up to them or avoids them at all costs then your ideas are not built of solid ground.
@Patric Cooney: why would i be furious,Patric? I want Irish women to have safe,legal 1st trimester abortions in their own country.And as most abortions happen before that date,then it’s a result in my mind.. :)
@Francis Mc Carthy: I’m asking why you don’t support a woman’s right to have a second or third trimester abortion? Do you hate women or something? You can’t possibly have a logical reason for not being ok with late term abortions.
@Patric Cooney:eh? You’re going making up stuff :) I support a woman’s right to end the pregnancy when she wanted to…Does that blow your mind,pet?
No surprises there. Sure whats few dead babies compared to more votes. Oh and I can hear the replies already, the rights of poor downtrodden women. Imagine women are so fragile that they are threatened by their own babies growing inside them. and I’m not talking about genuine cases where that’s an actual threat to a woman’s life, but more about the third wave feminists who will ride the coat tails of those cases for a free for all paid for by the tax payer abortion when a pregnancy is just inconvenient. And don’t trot out the “that’ll never happen here” answer, there is enough evidence to fill a grave yard thrice over in dead babies who were a threat to no one in America to refute that claim utterly. Come at me Repeal’ers . Reprobates the lot of you.
@Mark Browne: you swallowed the anti choice phrasebook I see.
@Mark Browne: Heard Maria Steen wife the floor with Catherine No one on radio this morning .. Pro abortion people have long road ahead
@Mark Browne: There’s a cesspit filled with the dead bodies of children most of who died from neglect and/or malnutrition. There a few graveyards around who have their fill of such children as well.
Women aren’t fragile, far from it. But when they have no right to choose what is best for them regarding pregnancy, the health problems being pregnant can cause, or how they became pregnant, then they are downtrodden.
The right to choose is an issue for all women, be they feminist or not.
@Mark Browne: don’t need to.. Your own woman Hating silly comment does enough work for us in itself. You keep on talking mister, we the reprobates salute the work you are doing for the pro choice movement. Thank you.
@Mark Browne: well said Mark!!
Tax payer funded abortion on demand of little babies. So wrong.
You saw in UK private clinics receiving bonuses for encouraging abortion numbers. Also aborting when mother said she really wanted a girl or a boy. Perfectly healthy babies. So morally wrong.
@Pconor: the only morals that count ,would be the woman’s and her doctors…yours mean zilch
@Mark Browne: the majority of abortions happen during & before the 10th week,so what “babies” are you waffling on about ?
@cormac o neill: yeah had to turn it off. The ionanians turn my stomach
@Mark Browne: The fragile women have been taking these decisions for thousands of years, Mark. I can see how this scares you: “what if my mammy didn’t want me and went to the backstreet abortionist with the coathanger?” Of course you don’t have the empathy and imagination to try and reflect why any woman would do that. You just want to control women, lets face it.
@Zmeevo Libe: oh please. He was 100% right in his comments. He wants to control woman? How in gods name did you figure that out. Listen you just go vote yes yourself and then try again in 10 years when we will vote again. This law will never pass thank god.
@Mark Murphy: Of course he does. There are the “deserving cases” whose lives are threatened, and the “feminists” who have terminations for convinience. If this is not patronising, I don’t know what is. Clearly a woman can’t be trusted to make decisions, thanks god we have him to tell wrong from right.
You, of course are even more superior, being able to predict the future?
@Mark Murphy: you’ve Clinton as your avatar,which is interesting,considering the flak that she got from the “pro life” side in the U.S…
Why do you want to force a woman to continue with a pregnancy,especially a woman that will have less means than others (rich)
Abortion is murder.
@Carnac – then why is it legal in Ireland ?
@Carnac: Abortion & murder are 2 completely seperate things. Someone would have to be born before they could be murdered.
@Keith McDonagh: what a ridiculous statement
@Havana na na na: Abortion is legal in Ireland only in very, very specifically unique cases.
The 8th Amendment to our Irish Constitution Acts enacted by law in 1983 reads:
“The State acknowledges the right to life of the unborn and, with due regard to the equal right to life of the mother, guarantees in its laws to respect, and, as far as practicable, by its laws to defend and vindicate that right”.
I think that is very fair… equal rights to life of mother and unborn babies.
The key words are “… as far as is practicable… defend and vindicate that right”.
The “practicable” part is what leaves a doctor in a quandry over which should die – the mother in possible fatal birthing difficulty?… or kill off the perhaps defective or perhaps unwanted unborn baby?
Is this what the Irish people want to get rid of from our Constitution to allow abortion by free choice of the mother?
A 16yrs of age daughter of an American Catholic friend of mine was raped by two men at a disco, who spiked her non-alcohic drink during a school trip to Germany and became pregnant. She has no recollection of the event and only later knew of it when her school friends told her that one of the two young German men brought her outside for a “snog” and the other joined in him in raping her.
Being a fervant Catholic, she gave birth to the baby at 17yrs age, then gave it up for adoption to a childless couple. She maintains a close relationship with the couple and her rape-produced child, who is now a happy teenager herself, knows her true birth mother, often sees her during visits and is ever so glad that her birth mother didn’t abort her.
Choices, choices… a matter of life or death of a human being.
@Jengis O’Can: if abortion is legal in Ireland,then how can it be murder?
@Keith McDonagh: exactly the case but people cannot accept this blatant fact.
I will never vote FF as long as he is in charge
I didn’t expect that, but good. Time to lance the pustulating boil that i the 8th
Knowing he was the first leader to make a statement is the only reason he has. Opportunist and a bandwagon hopper.
I am pro choice. This man is a weasel and looking for votes. Give him none of your attention.
@Tomás Doyle: “Opportunist and a bandwagon hopper” I think that pretty much describes 99.9% of politicians everywhere! Following the usual formula of, will this make me more or less likely to get re-elected next time!
:-)
@Tomás Doyle: In fairness it’s surprising and news worthy, he will have angered a lot of FF supports, and he won’t gain that many votes for it. I’m not a fan of him or FF, but fait play on this one issue.
@Tomás Doyle: ah for fckuk sake…. An elected leader is supposed to represent the views of the electorate. Thats what they are there for
@Dave Harris: No he isn’t. It’s an astonishing indictment of the educational system that you think the elected representatives should do whatever the electorate tell them.
@Tomás Doyle: Love your intellgent considered response you obviously know little about the nature of the man and the loss of his children through illness. Mr Martin has experienced personal challanges and I would not under estimate his journey to this position.
Ridicule his politics if you wish but you say your desire is to Repeal the 8th I respectfully suggest
You welcome every vote as one whose journey has been similar I firmly believe in the womans right to choose and just as importantly that she has the proper supports advice and medical supervision and can do it in her own community not some cold grotty clinic in a foreign country.
@Stephen Adam: Members of Dáil Eireann are elected by a general election. A TD (Teachta Dála) can be a member of a Government party, the Opposition or may sit as an independent TD. A TD represents everyone who is entitled to vote within their constituency.
Copied from Citizen information website
Go back to school Stephen
Steals Leo’s thunder. Pascal Donoghue showed true leadership last week.
@takemine: the only thunder from Leo is from the rear.
He will announce his choice depending on how the reaction from today’s news goes.
The VOTE is all that matters to the fence hugger.
That’s me finished with him anyway
@cormac o neill: awww bless.He’ll be devastated ..
Anything for votes. Wasn’t going to vote FF anyway. Now yet another reason. #savethe8th – give it clarification not repeal.
Hey sees the way the way the public mood has shifted on this is all
You havenent listened to your delagates at the ard fheis when they voted to protect life, BIG MISTAKE. You. You have just lost the next election as well because of your disregard for your delagates and ordinary voters and members. I thought you might give leadershup and stand up for life, but you dont have the courage it seems . Lets hope Leo Varadker has the courage to stand up for life. At least he had the courage to say a lot of people have a problem with the 12 weeks , limit. Hope he can now speak out to save the 8th and show real leadership.
Labour and their pro choice stand cost them over 30 seats at last election remember that when you lose the next election. What is wrong with equal protection of both mother and baby. Who fears equality
@Jim Kenny: Labour lost seats because they caved to FG in almost all maters while in government with them, and didn’t represent their voters as they promised. They then ran a campaign to their generally left wing supportes with “vote 1 Labour, vote 2 FG” as their slogan, absolute madness! Nothing at all to do with this matter.
@Jim Kenny: That is rubbish talk,.as Sarah so rightly pointed out to you…
What was the reason for the “pro Life” peeps that lost their seats ?
Lucinda Creighton lost her seat
Peter Matthews (rip) lost his seat
Terence Flanagan lost his seat
i’m sure that there was another few names to that list
Wow seriously!! Some back pedal there Micheál
Won’t someone please think of the childr…
@Greased Up Deaf Guy: comment of the year
He was a Minister for Health for nearly 5 years (2000-2004). Why is he only considering the issue now?
@Conor Stitt: because there is a referendum coming
The Flip Flopper strikes again.
He shouldn’t just be doing that as a way to stay ahead as a politician. If he has strong personal belief then that’s what he should stick to. It’s actually a fairly spineless sentence. Since when has any politician had a period of quiet personal reflection
@Joe Soap: Are you suggesting people can’t change their minds after hearing new I formation and taking the time to think about it?
@Sarah Connor: mr martin changing his views in his mid fifties after been prolife all his life give me a break
My opinion of him just went down. We live in the most Machiavellian era in history where that which is moral equals that which is politically expedient. Only 3 months ago at the Fianna Fáil Ard Fheis his own party voted in support of maintaining the 8th amendment, but screw them, a general election is on the cards probably in the autumn and getting into power (via winning the left/liberal vote) is all that counts, not keeping promises (“we’re a pro life party”) or sticking to principles, such as defending the lives of the most vulnerable, the voiceless child in the womb, or honouring the grass roots party members who canvassed for you, no, might is right and that’s all that counts.
I never thought I would see the day when I would say this… Well done Mícheál Martin!
@Dell: You mean you actually believe him?
@Derek Poutch: doesn’t make a difference if I do or don’t.. It is him saying it and explaining why he is saying it that counts. But to be honest I do believe him. He has committed political suicide within his own party and he will never be voted leader again because of this.
“(The current law) cannot change the reality that abortion is a part of Irish life,”
Isn’t that true of many other things in Irish life, that’s illegal?
@Fran Lonergan: True. Sure isn’t drugs, theft and violence a daily part of Irish life. Let’s legalise those too…
@Johnny Bellew: You really have your panties in a bunch over this!
@Johnny Bellew: childish and spurious analogy.
Violence/theft/murder: the entire country and indeed western world is agreed that these things are socially and morally unacceptable. There is no one calling for more liberal assault laws. No one.
By comparison – abortion has no such consensus. There is huge divide in society.
Drugs: should drugs be made legal? People are
Doing them anyway. A valid point. And worthy of mainstream political debate. After the abortion issue is settled perhaps we should move to that issue. Right now though we’re dealing with abortion so let’s stick with the issue at hand eh?
@Stephen Adam: The de-humanization of a developing child tends to be obscured by a pro-life/pro-choice brigade which see it as a gender issue and I believe many politicians would be content to frame it that way. It changes the way the constitution works for it alters the shared life of mother and developing child as protected within the womb and the State to a dehumanized woman and foetus.
The idea of sub-human raises its ugly head for that is what it is.
@Gerald Kelleher: not sure what all that about Gerald but it won’t help your argument.
@Stephen Adam: I have a unique perspective on this de-humanization process where it becomes acceptable, even with huge consequences for nations. The British used a de-humanization perspective to insert black skin people between white skin people and monkeys in an evolutionary ascent from simple to complex intelligence and for the first time it became a formal policy to class living people as sub-human.
“At some future period, not very distant as measured by centuries, the civilised races of man will almost certainly exterminate and replace throughout the world the savage races. At the same time the anthropomorphous apes, as Professor Schaaffhausen has remarked, will no doubt be exterminated. The break will then be rendered wider, for it will intervene between man in a more civilised state, as we may hope, than the Caucasian, and some ape as low as a baboon, instead of as at present between the negro or Australian and the gorilla.” Darwin
It was applied by the national socialists as the primary reason for human extermination in WWII in that ‘natural selection’ contained a formal academic stamp and destroyed the German nation.
People are easily swayed by technical terms like ‘foetus’ which can then make the issue of termination easier for those chasing gender rights but others are not so easily swayed and accept a developing child as human. It leaves room for protecting the life of the mother and for difficult decisions but not at the expense of a linguistic sleight of hand.
@Gerald Kelleher: didn’t read a word of it champ.
@Stephen Adam: Anywhere human life becomes sub-human then bad things happen so a ‘foetus’ is a developing child for those who are more thoughtful. Doubt if you would read this either but that is what the whole referendum amounts to -
Do you accept a developing child in the womb as a human ? – tick Yes or No.
@Gerald Kelleher:
I’m not sure I follow, completely, your arguments. You seem to be drawing a lot of things together, with maybe a bit of a personal gripe thrown in.
Humanity is capable of so much, great thing like science and learning, empathy and concern for each other and the well being of the environment and other species.
Humanity, unfortunately is also capable of great debasement and abortion falls into that category. I hope that in some time in the future human societies will realise the depths we have fallen to, not only to accept its place in our society but almost celebrate it as a progressive activity.
@Gerald Kelleher:what else would it be ? It’s hardly a donkey..
@Fran Lonergan: Don’t guess my position – ask if you must but don’t do that.
It is not a gender issue as no woman gets to decide when a developing child is or is not a human being. The referendum would only enshrine that the developing child at 11 weeks has no protection while after 12 weeks it suddenly falls under the constitution where woman and child are protected.
I can imagine in future that the mindset of this era will be seen as cruel or primitive, there are enough practices and avenues to allow women to screw away to their hearts content without having it become entangled with pregnancy issues where the woman is in medical danger or sadly difficult choices have to me made by a woman and couple who do want a baby without severe abnormalities.
I have no gripes, having an expansive view of life and creation I realize just how nearly impossible the odds that I am alive on a planet with just the right traits to make all life possible and with a history of life on Earth which was not always great for habitable existence.
@Gerald Kelleher:
You really need to make your comments readable and coherent. I’m not really sure that they are up to now.
In other words, he put his own beliefs to one side for the good of the party.
@Jason L. Reid: No considering the FF Ard Feis voted to retain the 8th. Fairly courageous of him. It may cause a split
Leo is pro life though and he’s much more influential than Mehole.
1-1.
Early days yet.
@FrankDapavia: are you sure? Up until now I personally would have said FF leader will keep to the catholic churches viewpoint on the matter.
What are you going to do if Leo actually says he believes the 8th needs to go too?
@FrankDapavia: an anti choice doctor? That’d be a first.
@Barry Somers: it’s not a contest. Lives are at stake. It’s a serious moral question that deserves serious debate and consideration. Leo is on public record as saying that he is pro life. I don’t think that’s in question.
@Barry Somers:
Leo has publicly stated that he is pro life but if does an about turn then I will not be one bit surprised.
@Barry Somers: for vast majority it’s not a Catholic Church approach, the repeals seem to have got this all wrong I am pro life and pro choice of the unborn to have a life, I am twice married divorcee who goes to church for xmas (kids love it) and funerals. The pro child people aren’t all Catholics
@Barry Somers: It isn’t just the Catholic Churches viewpoint—-many other non catholics have similar views
Pregnancy is a preventable condition, not a disease.
Before you know it the taxpayers will be footing the bill for what is basically birth control for the irresponsible.
@Carnac: if that’s your issue with it, I think you will find it’s a lot more expensive on the tax payer when women are forced to remain pregnat against their will.
@Carnac: oh…you mean like the way the taxpayer is “footing the bill” for Viagra, Cialis, and other erectile dysfunction drugs for men with medical cards? To the tune of €42 mil of the taxpayers money since 2010. Maybe we should have a referendum on that, and get that repealed. There’s birth control for you.
@Dell: Well at least children will not have been killed to ease the burden of a women “pregnant against their will”.
Pregnancy is a preventable condition not a disease that a woman has no control over.
@Carnac: “Pregnancy is a preventable condition not a disease that a woman has no control over.” – the majority of women who’ve had terminations WERE using some sort of ‘preventive’ measure…no wonder the CA BINNED the majority of yer submissions.
@Havana na na na: How do you know what the majority of women were using? Vodka and Red Bull is not really a preventative measure. BTW, no comments ever binned to my knowledge.
@Carnac: you don’t trust women…bless
Hahhahahahha, he’s thirsty now, looking for a promotion.
I wonder how many times he’ll change his mind?
Shame on him. Shame shame shame.
@Escay: to take so long? Better late than never.
Gutless wonder.
The man lacks bottle and should now be consigned to the scrapheap. SHAME on him.
@Johnny Bellew: Why, because he made an informed decision to change his mind on an important issue? Keep in mind they actually read the full report from the citizens assembly, and have therefore been given new information and a new perspective on the matter. It is a sign of intelligence to be able to admit you may have been wrong, and change your mind because of new information. That’s how we learn and evolve as a species.
@Johnny Bellew: mostly men on here tonight who are pro life. I am a man and prefer to let the woman decide what is best for her. Also, I don’t agree with exporting the issue to the UK. Irish women are having terminations and we should provide them with safe abortions in their own country.
@Sarah Connor: he checked which way the wind was blowing Sarah that’s all
@Brian Madden: well said.
@Brian Madden: what about the baby Brian? Don’t care? I mean 12 weeks ?
From motherandbaby.uk
Your 12-week scan can take place any time between 11 and 13 weeks. It’s amazing to think that at this point, your baby is fully formed. So you can see all his organs, muscles, limbs and bones are in place, and the sex organs are well developed.
And you just want to end him/her for no reason other than the mother’s choice?
@Greg Kelly:You do say the most adorable things.I love it.
Why do you want women in Ireland to go to the UK for a surgical termination \?
i’ll love to see your answer to that one,pet
Good man Micheal. How will you silence the screams of unborn babies being shredded?
@Rob Ryan: huh?
@Rob Ryan: maybe your sky fairy will intervene? At last women will have the right to choose, not mental religious freaks
Good to know FF values remain when making decision i.e.where popular opinion brings them. Was there any doubt he would go this way? Especially with the high probable risk of negative media if he rejected the change in the 8th Amendment. And you don’t have to work in Paddy Powers to see what camp Leo will be in. His government has had enough negative press let alone him be the Chief Women Suppressor if he rejects the 8th.
An auld vote catcher,he sees what way the wind is blowing.dont be fooled .
Poor old Cormac/Lin/Fin etc etc, will be up to Martin’s constituency office tonight ,where they will be holding a candlelight vigil…
@Are roo from Cork: piss off you
@cormac o neill: …#loveboats
Is this major news? I mean this guy was part of a gov that made decisions that bankrupt the country. The only people he will influence are the gombeen FF supporters.
Also FF have 20 something percent support in the polls, so he’s hardly an influential figure in the debate.
Well done sir, at least you have the courage to air your view, not a Fianna Fail supporter by any stretch of the imagination, but am impressed by your stand on this issue.
It’s Micheal Martin, FF are not going to win an election with him when he made the referendum about his own views, rather than the views of his party.
Told to Gloria Steinem by an Irish woman driving a cab in Boston….
“Honey, if men could get pregnant…abortion would be a sacrament.”
Ill follow Martin on that. Remove the 8th
New home has flip flopped to the prochoice side. The number crunchers must have presented him with the latest figures in support of repeal.
I momentarily felt sorry for him because he must know he’s going to get a shed load of foetus fetish porn and rosaries sent by batshït antis… then I remembered he’s in Fianna Fail!
@DaisyChainsaw: New home? Meehole! Stupid feckin spellchecker!
Does FF stand for Fianna Fail or flip flop? Opportunist politicians like this don’t change their minds, they check the way the wind is blowing
No moral back bone ,just another populist cowardly betrayal of those that cant speak for themselves .a sad day for fianna fail .
The sooner the issue is resolved, the sooner we can move on.
If this issue remained where it should have remained all along…in the doctor’s office between the patient and the doctor; not one of you here crying crocodile tears for the “unborn” would give a toss. Abortion is a medical issue, not a government issue. Unfortunately….the government thinks it is their business to be included in your medical decisions. This is why way too much time and energy is being devoted to the abortion issue. There should not be a referendum. The 8th Amendment should be repealed…full stop. Why should any voter have the right to decide someone else’s health decisions? Where does it end? And isn’t funny how suddenly this government gives a toss about what the voters of this country think. They haven’t shown much concern over what the voter thinks about much else. But this is a hot button, distract them all topic…and the government loves it. You really think they care about potential life? Look at the utter disdain they have for the lives that already exist in this country. And let us not forget…a government that can keep a patient from having a medical procedure such as an abortion, is also capable of the flip side….it can force a patient to get an abortion. This is an area that the government has no business being in. I will say it again…this is a medical issue, not a government issue. Just repeal the 8th Amendment without a referendum, and move on.
Plenty of time for him to change his mind a third time, or is it fourth.
Vote getter decision. Not necessarily correct that he will vote that way – no one will know. The oireachtais vote is open also
Flip-flop politics once again.
I just can’t believe he didn’t use the word ‘fundemental’ in his speech!
Micheal martins tenure as leader of ff is surely untenable .ff voted at their recent ard fheis to retain the eight amendment by a 3 to 1 majority. The majority of his parliamentary party also seem to believe in retention.Mr Martin believes in taken a life that is over 25% through gestation.this man has now had conversion from pro life to pro abortion in his mid fifties.is this man for real
Am no FF supporter, but credit where credit is due.
@Pj Berry: for picking the option which will deliver the biggest vote?
Future votes more important than innocent babies. Micheal has just broken his word and he’ll pay the price in the next election. Shame on him.
How long before foetus are being sold for medical research like Planned Parenthood are doing in the U.S.?
There’s some real profit to made there you know.
@Carnac: do they get permission from the woman beforehand ? Yes or No ?
What “profit” were Planned Parenthood making ? Have you a CREDIBLE source to prove that allegation of yours?
lols
@Havana na na na: Just Google it. Do you know how to do that?
Shit storm in 3….2…..1…..
@Phillip Roche: hopefully start the process of getting rid of the Irish Tory as well as giving women their rightful option of choice
I thought that FF had voted at their Ard Fheis to keep the 8th. So how can M.Martin as leader go against that?
FF as a party are just too cute for their own good.
Why does Lisa Chambers always look so angry? Someone give that girl a snickers.
At last someone stands up as a creditable spokesperson on this particular subject within a dithering Fianna Fáil party. Micheál Martin will probably come under strong attack from the prehistoric TD’s that remain in the Party, some old and some new.
Ar agaidh leis an Ceart, Ar agaidh let Fianna Fáil.
@Gerry O’Rourke: If that’s what you believe, You must be choking on this like other members of FF who can’t agree with a repeal of the 8th.
Move on We live in a World of Reality.
This is a difficult and divisive issue. Mr Martin is entitled to his opinion. But do not- I repeat do not rule out Mr Martin changing his mind, next month. Especially if opinion polls or some back benchers turn on him.
From the creators of civil war politics partition mother and baby homes we now give you free child killing in your local
I’m no fan of FF but absolutely welcome this decision – so very thankful. Here’s to a repeal! People everywhere I am speaking with are saying they’ll vote to Repeal. We should not be dictating women’s lives or telling them what they can and can’t do. Look at how Ireland tried to control women back In the 80′s and everything else that went on. It’s all connected. Repeal the 8th.
good on you Micheal Martin. damn that feels dirty
The amount of men in these comments talking about a woman’s body and what she can do with it is disgusting
” I’m gay, but on mature reflection I’ll be voting no, což marriage really is not for the likes of me” or “I was going to vote yes until all these gays started getting so uppity” These were the kind of posts the Iona zombies were writing. We weren’t fooled then, don’t be fooled now.
I hope everyone against abortion has adopted all the children who need a family. You’re probirth, you don’t care what happens to the child after it’s born. That to me is more disgusting. If you don’t want an abortion fine don’t have one
Political opportunism at it’s worst! Lost my vote. Lacking principles What next? Get rid of that old doddery fellow in the corner? He’s a burden on the health services and a waste of space.His life doesn’t matter!
What a tosspot, 2nd biggest of the lot, as much use as tits on a bull
Perfect now bring back hanging and have loads of deaths in this country and therefore everybody will forget about the homeless dying on our streets..
have your say