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THE OIREACHTAS PUBLIC Accounts Committee (PAC) is set to discuss the costs of the Office of the President at a meeting this morning.
There has been much debate about the move in recent days – with Taoiseach Leo Varadkar and Fianna Fáil leader Micheál Martin among those labelling it unconstitutional.
Many people have also questioned the timing of the decision, one month out from the presidential election on 26 October.
So, how did we get here?
At a meeting last Thursday, the PAC discussed its plan to scrutinise how the annual budget of the president’s office is spent. The overall amount spent by the office is known (direct expenditure was €3.6 million in 2016), but a breakdown of where the money goes is not publicly available.
The Office of the President is exempt from Freedom of Information legislation, an issue raised by some journalists who have sought information about expenses.
Speaking at the meeting, PAC chairman Seán Fleming said: “If the committee were seen to not want to discuss the matter, it might raise even more significant questions than any questions we might get answered if we had a discussion.”
The Fianna Fail TD said he “would not be comfortable having a meeting on the issue after the close of nominations” tomorrow, so here we are.
“I do not think anyone would want to be here two weeks before an election campaign discussing the matter. If we are to do it, we have to get it out of the way promptly.”
Fleming said he will not allow members at today’s meeting to ask any questions about the president, just expenditure.
The President is not answerable to the House, which is a long-standing principle that we will honour entirely. If anyone asks a question about what the President did or did not do, I will rule it out of order.
Martin Fraser, Secretary General of the Department of An Taoiseach and the Accounting Officer to the Office of the President, has said the decision is unconstitutional.
‘Above politics‘
In a letter sent to the PAC on 17 September, Fraser stated: “The Office of the President is separate and distinct from other organs of State, such as the Executive (including Government Departments), the Oireachtas and the Judiciary.
“This is often expressed in terms of the President being “above politics”, which is a useful description and I believe widely understood and respected, both by other arms of the State and more importantly by the people.”
Fraser added that the legal position in this regard “is set out in detail in the Constitution” – namely Article 13.8.1, which states:
The President shall not be answerable to either House of the Oireachtas or to any court for the exercise and performance of the powers and functions of his office or for any act done or purporting to be done by him in the exercise and performance of these powers and functions.
Fraser said he was surprised that the PAC had not sought legal advice on pursuing the issue.
Speaking at the meeting last week, Fleming said legal advice had not been sought “because I understand that we will not direct any questions to [Fraser] in respect of the President and will question him only in relation to the financial matters for which he is Accounting Officer”.
In his letter, Fraser also raised concerns about the “political impartiality of the Civil Service” as well as timing issues.
“It is an inviolable principle that civil servants should not become involved in election campaigns. The fact that the current campaign is unusual, in that a sitting president is seeking re-election does not affect the principle involved.
“I cannot accept your suggestion that the campaigning period has not yet started. It is absolutely clear that a campaign for the office of the presidency is fully underway,” Fraser wrote.
In relation to timing, Fleming said: “This committee has never in the past or will never in the future allow its work to be dictated by timings of elections.”
‘Impact on presidential election’
Labour TD Alan Kelly questioned why the committee had not sought legal advice about the matter. He suggested that proceeding with the examination “will be damaging to this committee and will have an impact on the presidential election”.
“The fact is that this is an ongoing campaign. If we are going to jump into this now, it will really say an awful lot about this committee,” he said.
Sinn Féin TD David Cullinane said he has “no difficulty” with the committee discussing the expenses but does not “want us to waste our time if Mr Fraser is going to come in and say he cannot answer any of the questions we ask”.
A number of the PAC members criticised Fraser’s letter, with Fianna Fáil TD Marc MacSharry saying the “tone of the letter did bother me”.
We should do it. We should keep the questioning very much to the question of where the money goes and what happens to it.
Independent TD Catherine Connolly said the level of argument against inquiring into the spending worried her, stating that she was fed up of “patriarchal” arguments from people who think “we know best; do it later; now is not the time”.
“There is nothing wrong with information, dealt with properly by ourselves in an open and accountable manner,” she said.
How much we learn about the expenses will become clear later this morning. The meeting is due to commence at 10am in Committee Room 3. You can watch proceedings here.
With reporting by Christina Finn
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Public money has to and must be accounted for, it’s as simple as that. It doesn’t matter who or what is spending it.
@Dave Doyle: LOL hush up little taxpayer, this is our money now and we will conceal our junkets and wastefully extravagant expenditure, sure we’re austerity immune – the political class of Ireland
@Dave Doyle: Pointless trying to reason with these people. As far as they are concerned, they are there to govern (i.e. spend your money, among other things); you are there to be governed (i.e. pay for it). That is they way they will always think as long they believe that they can get away with it (i.e. that nobody is going to stop them).
The President is not answerable to the house!!!
He should be answerable to the taxpayer.
If this position is seen as an abuse of public funds, it needs to be investigated. SIMPLE.
No one man, woman, child, politician or any other profession should be abo e the law.
Otherwise it is considered elitism.
@Trevor Hayden: money allocated to the office of President is set down in the budget each year. Civil servants oversee the spending of this money. The President is not above the law, the Constitution, which is the highest law we have, has set the President outside of the Houses remit. The Office must be independent and seen to be so.
@Paul: Tim for change so, or the public should ask for a referendum on the presidency.
Without clarity on what’s being spent, the presidental office could be used to pilfer billions without public knowledge.
@Trevor Hayden: Did you even read the article? The office of the president is given a budget of 4.4M a year. The government’s total expenditure last year was 68.7 billion. That means, the office of the president accounts for 0.006% of the governments total expenditure.
@Do the Bort man: And your gullible enough to believe that, sorry but paper never refuses ink.
@Trevor Hayden: To believe what? You are the one suggesting that the government is using the office of the president to steal billions of euro every year! https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/revealed-how-much-the-office-of-the-president-costs-over-seven-years-36785078.html
@Trevor Hayden: no, the budget for the Office is set out each year, in public, during the Budget. The overall expenditure is available for anyone to see.
@Do the Bort man: Again referencing the media.
Paper/ink.
I do not trust the government and their spin doctors history has proven this with the likes of the Moriarty tribunal and various other tribunals into corruption, millions spent wastefully to line barrister/legal pockets and no return / blame landed on our political elite.
So it would not surprise me in the slightest if the office of the president was being used as a pilfering device to further enrich our politicians.
@Trevor Hayden: You can literally google the office of President’s budget and spending. It’s public record.
@David Hickey: I’ll leave it there so, I’m just surprised that the commentators on this article have so much faith in the government considering our abysmal track record.
PAC should be able to go everywhere. Tthey were also very quiet when Denis O’Brien and Irish water were running riot with water meters. Useless.
@Kath Noonan: That’s down to it being controlled by FG/FF.
What sort nonsense. Unvouched expenses now this nonsense. This our money. We have every right to know how every penny is spent.
@Brian Conway: That is why councellors were under orders to prevent gemma o’doherty from getting on TV debates. she would shown the corruption of coverups this country has become.
@Sean Conway: Sure, just like her claims that the government assassinated of Veronica Guerin which she refused to elaborate on or provide evidence for when questioned on Drive Time.
@Darren Tully: God only knows what this state has hidden from us.
Our money our right to know. Simples.
@James O’Brien: I get it that they’re separate organs and that the house can’t impose FOI rules on them, I get it that the PAC might not have authority there. But why can’t they just publish their accounts in full every year anyway, have they an issue with that.
He spends a lot on the little things.
That’s a ridiculous amount of money to be spending on a position of no substance. Does nothing in all honesty but go on junkets around the world. Every luxury afforded to him by the sounds of it. Just another thing that’s highly wrong with this country.
The office of President has a €4.4 million annual budget. We spent €30 million on the Pope for a *weekend*.
Political parties should want to put the Office of the President under FOI. That would solve it but they haven’t done in seven years. I find that very strange.
@Daithi: how much did we spend on the British royals this year?
It’s funny how people seem to think Michael D spends the money himself. Going on about €3,000 a night hotels like he sits there on booking.com picking one out himself.
@Sam Harms: any one who spends 3000 a night on a hotel are spending well above their means when so many people in this country are homeless. Need to ground themselves to their surroundings,
@C_O’S: he’s the president!
@C_O’S: yea, he should fly ryan air, take carry on luggage and stay in hostels.
@Sam Harms: He’s the president of a small island off the north west coast of Europe. As such he’s more than capable of slumming it in a €500 per night room.
Penny pinching -
The Rolls Royce with the Diesel engine .
Laughing stock of Europe
@Quentin Moriarty: I think “all fur coat and no knickers” would be a better analogy
The Arus finance allocation is set annually, as with all other budgets, so only overruns need be examining, if any.
In any event, any expenditures are made by the civil servants responsible for operating the office, including hotel & other foreign trip costs.
The people behind this enquiry could well find that it will enhance the reputation of the incumbent, & focus on the lifestyles of other candidates.
@William Kelly: I wasn’t aware the lifestyles of the other candidates were taxpayer funded
@JimmyMc: Joan Freeman is a Senator and certainly Gavin Duffy has received taxpayers money to “advice” TDs.
@Daithi: senators publish their accounts annually. The President should have the same transparency and accountability.
@JimmyMc: That wasn’t what you asked though! I agree they should but the PAC isn’t the way.
Homeless crisis and the wee fella creaming it the Liebour way. FFG want the hatches down to ride this out. They will to in this corrupted little nation. The cycle keep on turning :-(
@Willy Mc Caul: Exactly, the president with a budget of 4.4M (or 0.006% of annual government expenditure) is the reason we have so many homeless.
@Do the Bort man: Where did Willy day that the president’s budget is “the reason we have so many homeless”? He rightly pointed out that Irish politicians waste money that should be used for far more important things.
The money way spent by the office of the President.. Was it the walls, the desk, the A4 paper going out shopping..
No it wasn’t it was spent by humans.
Humans have a track record for much good and much bad
Humans like to cover up badness.
Humans often like to publicise goodness.
Which human spent the money, who then got the money, and what was it spent on?
I don’t think MDH personally trousered it, but it is public money and therefore must be accounted for.
When civil servant become uncivil I get worried.
That’s a ridiculous amount of money to be spending on a position of no substance. Does nothing in all honesty but go on junkets around the world. Every luxury afforded to him by the sounds of it. Just another thing that’s highly wrong with this country. Joke.
As this is taxpayers money all expenses should be disclosed,simple as that
This BS demonstrates precisely why the office of the President should not be answerable to the courts or the Oireachteas.
Very suspicious this vigorous defence of keeping spending public money secret from the public.
Surely there’s no problem. He’s hardly been buying drink for the lads in the local or settling his account with the bookie. Surely not being flaithuileach with our money for things that are more normally paid for out of income.
He isn’t some outsider after all.
Am i getting this right, president gets a huge salary, gets to live in a huge house rent free, gets a huge car and driver free, gets free gardening, cleaners etc. . And on top of all of that they have unvouched expense accounts. No wonder there are so many applicants for the position. What does he do with his salary? Do they buy their own food or am i paying for that too???
@Loretta stiletto: I’d say we’re paying for everything
Fumble in the greasy till and add the half pence to the pence …apparently whatever currency is used there is scope for imaginative accountancy…
@ The Journal – I think a fairly critical bit of info you have left out of your article is that the expenditure of the Office of the President IS investigated – but by the impartial C&AG , and not by the potentially politically biased PAC.
You got to love this statement from PAC chairman Seán Fleming ( FF)
“If the committee were seen to not want to discuss the matter,
it might raise even more significant questions than any questions
we might get answered if we had a discussion.”
The above statement could ALSO refer to “Politicians various Expenses” which are costing far more than the €4.4 million annual budget of the president’s office
But the PAC ( FF) committee wants to go for the low hanging fruit now,wonder why ?
Oh yes maybe its because there is an election coming soon ?
Some people dye their hair yellow or put rings in their noses!
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