Skip to content
Support Us

We need your help now

Support from readers like you keeps The Journal open.

You are visiting us because we have something you value. Independent, unbiased news that tells the truth. Advertising revenue goes some way to support our mission, but this year it has not been enough.

If you've seen value in our reporting, please contribute what you can, so we can continue to produce accurate and meaningful journalism. For everyone who needs it.

Laura Hutton/Photocall Ireland

Aaron McKenna Public service obligation routes should be put out to competitive tender

The government should put public service obligation and school routes out to competitive tender – doing so would save 20 to 30 per cent on simply handing over such cash to public sector monopolies, writes Aaron McKenna.

DURING THE RECENT Bus Eireann strikes, one of the conditions sought by unions when they were looking for a deal to return to work was that the government should shelve plans to put public service obligation and school routes out to competitive tender. This is quite a tasty chunk of cash, €417 million a year from the exchequer at last count, flowing mainly into the bottomless black hole of money that is CIE.

A World Bank study into the topic found that having tenders saves governments 20 to 30 per cent on simply handing over such cash to public sector monopolies. That’s between €83m and €125m per year in potential savings that these intransigent public sector unions don’t want the taxpayer to see the benefit of. That’s atop the constant fare increases that all commuters have had to contend with as passenger numbers have fallen but costs have remained high and losses deepened at our ever unbowed semi-state company.

So much for solidarity with the common worker, who can suck up fare increases atop the extra taxes that have to help cover off that cool €100m we might save, or go without the services it might pay for.

Wouldn’t the private sector just abandon loss making routes?

Those vested in this cushy system of handing over nearly half a billion no-questions-asked tend to give the standard reply to the suggestion of competitive tendering: Sure, wouldn’t the private sector cowboys just go after the tastiest routes and leave the loss makers to us?

Well, hardly; considering that PSO routes are supposed to be loss making and that’s why they get a subsidy. The fact is that the CIE group of companies use the subsidy to cover their overburdened cost base wherever they drive. Every single Dublin Bus journey since 2008 has been subsidised by the taxpayer by €0.60 or more cents atop the fare paid by the passenger. Even during the good times the subsidy was €0.40 or more per journey. That level of a subsidy isn’t there to cover off a few really unprofitable routes frequented by little old ladies. Dublin Bus has refused to publish profitability figures per route for precisely this reason. They don’t, or hardly, run any profitable routes at all.

The companies that make up CIE are in a battle with their unions over pay and conditions. Folks are entitled to fight their corner for what they have been given, but lets face it: if CIE wasn’t public sector, this wouldn’t be a debate. It is only because the company is backed by the bottomless pit of money that is the taxpayer that these arguments drag on.

Dublin Bus drivers are the third highest paid in any major European city

According to UBS’ annual Prices and Earnings report from September 2012, Dublin Bus drivers are the third highest paid in any major European city even when adjusting for the cost of living. They earn 34 per cent more than their counterparts in Helsinki, up in the Scandinavian socialist paradise where a beer sets you back the price of a meal. It is difficult to justify arguing over special allowances for travelling to work and getting double time-and-a-half versus simply double time.

The CIE group made losses of €281 million in 2012, shaving an impressive €4 million off the loss they made the year before. The company also has the small matter of a defined benefit pension scheme deficit of €492 million to work through, a problem also highlighted by ESB workers during the week in their whopping €1.6 billion pension fund deficit.

You’d almost think there was a reason every sane private sector company in the world has run a million miles from these unsustainable ponzi scheme pension arrangements. (The government as a whole doesn’t have a deficit despite operating a defined benefit pension system, cleverly sidestepping the political time bomb by simply not having a pension fund. It’s all paid out of day-to-day spending, which is why as payroll has reduced over the past few years from people retiring, pension spending has shot up and eaten much of the savings.)

Why do companies like CIE remain in public ownership?

Things work differently when it’s a public sector company. Politicians are too easily bent to give away the gravy (as the ESB union head famously called it) in return for votes rather than to consider shareholder – taxpayer – value.

Sadly, it’s difficult to get past this sort of perverse situation while companies like CIE remain in public ownership. Then the question arises as to why we bother to give ourselves the headache?

What we want is a functioning transport infrastructure. We want buses that run on routes that need to be served, including some that are unprofitable but socially important to us. We don’t need to run the bus company to achieve that. We simply farm out the PSO and the school bus routes to private sector companies, including a CIE spun out like its erstwhile crown jewel sister Aer Lingus (and most every other publicly owned airline around the world).

If CIEs shareholders want to continue to rack up €200+ million in losses every year, fair game to them. If the company were to go to the wall next week because it cannot reform itself, then we’ll simply hand the contract to the next available operator. They run the route to the standard we agree at a fair price, and compete with others every few years to see who can do it cheapest and best.

Given the size of the market one might have reservations about sending Irish Rail to such a fate, but certainly for the buses I don’t see a reason why government feels the need to be so intimately involved in the process as opposed to simply creating a market for the outcome to be achieved. And in the case of rail, there are successes as well as failures to consider in eventually looking to offload our state owned wagons. Freight moved by rail has arrested a long slide under public ownership since being privatised in the 1990s in the UK, and is booming even through recession.

Intransigent unions with an easy sway over politicians

Companies that are no longer entirely owned by the state do not have the same intransigent unions with an easy sway over politicians to prevent any real reform. Aer Lingus’ hard headed CEO Christoph Mueller showed this well, when he negotiated a new sustainable pay deal with pilots some years ago. Cabin crew unions, used to fighting on public ownership terms, held out for more. He eventually just fired them all, gave statutory redundancy and rehired on the new terms required to keep the business going. (He has since been made chairman of the board of AnPost by the government).

It may not be nice, but then again neither is forking over hundreds of millions unnecessarily to loss making public sector companies when we’re short of cash to run our hospitals. Decisions, decisions. I know which one I’d make.

Aaron McKenna is a businessman and a columnist for TheJournal.ie. He is also involved in activism in his local area. You can find out more about him at aaronmckenna.com or follow him on Twitter @aaronmckenna. To read more columns by Aaron click here.

Read: Bus Éireann workers vote to accept LRC plan and abandon strike
Read: Bus Éireann proposals cut executive pay, restore driver premiums
Read: IBEC wants the law changed so strikes won’t disrupt key services

Readers like you are keeping these stories free for everyone...
A mix of advertising and supporting contributions helps keep paywalls away from valuable information like this article. Over 5,000 readers like you have already stepped up and support us with a monthly payment or a once-off donation.

Close
41 Comments
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute James Fox
    Favourite James Fox
    Report
    Feb 13th 2021, 9:40 AM

    Bad news,bad news,bad news.
    Please can I have a break from it for the weekend

    288
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute JusticeForJoe
    Favourite JusticeForJoe
    Report
    Feb 13th 2021, 10:55 AM

    @James Fox: Why keep looking at news apps in the middle of a pandemic if you don’t want to know what’s happening?? I don’t want to be uninformed just because someone else does. Really wish people would stop shooting the messengers.

    90
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Paul Furey
    Favourite Paul Furey
    Report
    Feb 13th 2021, 11:09 AM

    @James Fox: of course you can have a break

    23
    See 14 more replies ▾
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Tony Mcgrath
    Favourite Tony Mcgrath
    Report
    Feb 13th 2021, 11:23 AM

    @JusticeForJoe: go to bed cover your head and don’t rise until Monday morning

    12
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute JusticeForJoe
    Favourite JusticeForJoe
    Report
    Feb 13th 2021, 11:36 AM

    @Tony Mcgrath: Was that meant for me or the OP?

    3
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Brian Ó Dálaigh
    Favourite Brian Ó Dálaigh
    Report
    Feb 13th 2021, 12:04 PM

    @JusticeForJoe: Is it a pandemic, though? Pandemics pass. Covid is here to stay. This is our new normal.

    10
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute JusticeForJoe
    Favourite JusticeForJoe
    Report
    Feb 13th 2021, 12:19 PM

    @Brian Ó Dálaigh: Vaccines will help

    3
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Brian Ó Dálaigh
    Favourite Brian Ó Dálaigh
    Report
    Feb 13th 2021, 12:23 PM

    @JusticeForJoe: no, they won’t. Covid is here to stay. We used to have an approach focused on protecting the health service. That’s not our approach anymore. Now it’s about mild cases, irrespective of how our health service is coping. That shift in approach means we can never, ever return to normal.

    10
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute JusticeForJoe
    Favourite JusticeForJoe
    Report
    Feb 13th 2021, 1:11 PM

    @Brian Ó Dálaigh: Most people that are vaccinated will be protected from the worst effects of covid. Why do you just ignore that?

    7
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute aaron
    Favourite aaron
    Report
    Feb 13th 2021, 2:40 PM

    @Brian Ó Dálaigh: That is literally not true, we will be returning to normal and for one glaring reason: capital. If you think governments around the globe will accept an indefinite pause on the economy for this then you need to go to bed. The vaccines will prevent the vast majority from experiencing any symptoms that require anything more than a day in bed. Once it gets to that level normality will resume, from then it will end up like how we manage the flu with an adapted vaccine every winter season for the current covid variant that is gaining traction.

    3
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute JusticeForJoe
    Favourite JusticeForJoe
    Report
    Feb 13th 2021, 3:04 PM

    @aaron: I suspect he’s trying to convince people that the vaccines are pointless or dangerous. The anti-vaxxers have been so (rightly) vilified, they’re ashamed to admit that they’re anti-vax now. I see no other logical explanation for this lad’s rubbish.
    Fun fact: a percentage of anti-vaxxers are just afraid of needles

    7
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Brian Ó Dálaigh
    Favourite Brian Ó Dálaigh
    Report
    Feb 13th 2021, 3:06 PM

    @JusticeForJoe: I’m not. Most people will be vaccinated by September/October, yet government plans on maintaining restrictions until Summer 2022 at the earliest. If it were a case that restrictions would be lifted after vaccinations were completed, why would the government suggest we should maintain those restrictions beyond that point? This is not me saying this; this is our government.

    6
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Brian Ó Dálaigh
    Favourite Brian Ó Dálaigh
    Report
    Feb 13th 2021, 3:11 PM

    @JusticeForJoe: well, no, that’s just a straight out lie. I’m fully in favour of vaccines. Apart from a tiny, tiny percentage of people who *might* have some very minor side effects, the vaccines are safe and effective against the symptoms of Covid. Personally, I think governments should be bending over backwards to work in conjunction with the pharmaceutical companies to ramp up production. I’m also in favour of vaccine certification which would allow travel. I have stated my support for vaccines on numerous occasions. Here we have yet another example of you lying and targeting others with false accusations simply because I don’t 100% agree with your position. This ties in exactly with what I said on another thread – you are a hate-filled Covid supremacist.

    5
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute JusticeForJoe
    Favourite JusticeForJoe
    Report
    Feb 13th 2021, 3:22 PM

    @Brian Ó Dálaigh: I don’t even read your ramblings anymore. You started with the vitriol before I even said anything so gfy

    3
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Brian Ó Dálaigh
    Favourite Brian Ó Dálaigh
    Report
    Feb 13th 2021, 3:38 PM

    @JusticeForJoe: JusticeForJoe c. 1 month ago: “I never insult anyone or call them names”. Also JusticeForJoe today: “I have already predetermined your opinion without evidence so I won’t actually read your opinion, but will instead call you an anti-vaxxer Covidiot.” You’re the wоrst kind of hypоcrite – the type that doesn’t even know you are one and belittles everyone around you.

    7
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute JusticeForJoe
    Favourite JusticeForJoe
    Report
    Feb 13th 2021, 5:03 PM

    @Brian Ó Dálaigh: I’ve seen your opinions. I know what camps you’re in and I don’t need to hear anything else from you when there are sane and reasonable people around to hear from instead.

    1
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Brian Ó Dálaigh
    Favourite Brian Ó Dálaigh
    Report
    Feb 13th 2021, 6:14 PM

    @JusticeForJoe: you obviously don’t know what camp I’m in. You say I’m an anti-vaxxer. That’s an outright lie. You insinuated I was a Trump supporter. That is another lie, as I cannot stand him. You claimed before that I support fully opening society. Yet another lie, as I support restrictions. Everything you claimed about me was a lie. You are neither sane nor reasonable. You bully those with mental health issues. You insult those who do not agree 100% with you. If anyone asks a question you label them as idiоts. Yоu are an extrеmist a supremаcist and a liаr. In your view there are only camps: supporters of a complete lockdown of society and ignore those who are struggling; or, those who are completely anti-lockdown, anti-mask, anti-vax and anti-science. For you, there is no inbetween.

    5
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Iblis
    Favourite Iblis
    Report
    Feb 13th 2021, 10:02 AM

    So in other words, the lockdowns are not going to work. Continuing lockdowns for something that is not going to go away is going to decimate this country. There will be nothing left. Nothing to stay here for. If other countries have managed to open up and managed to get back to.normality there will be an exodus again from this place. Well those if us that are left to exodus that is. Be it from covid or other means. Humanity is the survival of the fittest. Alas there is nothing we can do about this. The virus will continue to mutate by it’s very nature. Do you think its possible to develop and manufacture that quantity of vaccine every year??

    237
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Laura Walsh
    Favourite Laura Walsh
    Report
    Feb 13th 2021, 10:20 AM

    @Iblis: lockdowns were never meant to be a longterm plan. They are a delay tactic for governments to get their health service and facilities in order. Ireland is currently paying the price for several years of mismanagement of the health budget and funds.

    214
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Iblis
    Favourite Iblis
    Report
    Feb 13th 2021, 10:31 AM

    @Laura Walsh: agreed Laura. I don’t think there is enough character space here to outline the mismanagement. When the Philippines start keeping their nurses due to their own issues and the nurses here that have been working tirelessly to help us all aren’t been paid, decide to throw in the towel… Let’s just say all of our issues will be exasperated. I really think we will see a new type of exodus here in the coming years. I have a great, well paying job. Beautiful house and all the toys I could want. Problem is they are all in a country which will have nothing to enjoy in it within 5 years if we stay the current course. I really do love this country but I fear it will be back in the 80′s if we don’t open back up soon.

    98
    See 15 more replies ▾
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Anita OGalligan
    Favourite Anita OGalligan
    Report
    Feb 13th 2021, 10:45 AM

    @Iblis: Agreed, or we’ll be back in the 50s

    33
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Claude Saulnier
    Favourite Claude Saulnier
    Report
    Feb 13th 2021, 10:45 AM

    @Laura Walsh: yes, but have they even started to adjust? And at that stage I think it’s hard to see any end of lockdown.

    15
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Iblis
    Favourite Iblis
    Report
    Feb 13th 2021, 10:47 AM

    @Anita OGalligan: I was hoping at least with the 80′s we would have decent music again Anita. Always the optimist.

    20
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Bert Carolan
    Favourite Bert Carolan
    Report
    Feb 13th 2021, 10:59 AM

    @Iblis: Humanity is the survival of the fittest? Is that what defines us? I would have thought humanity is defined by how the vulnerable are protected.

    18
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute WJH
    Favourite WJH
    Report
    Feb 13th 2021, 11:17 AM

    @Laura Walsh: Several years! Decades more like.. we have an antiquated health service that is struggling to adapt to the modern world.

    We are pumping billions a year into the health service, its like a bottomless pit. It was mentioned recently the vaccine data was still been documented with pen and paper!

    23
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Iblis
    Favourite Iblis
    Report
    Feb 13th 2021, 11:20 AM

    @WJH: You would be surprised/horrified at what is still documented with pen and paper in the health service.

    15
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Laura Walsh
    Favourite Laura Walsh
    Report
    Feb 13th 2021, 11:27 AM

    @Bert Carolan: that’s a nice theory and the way the world should be yes, but I think that humanity has been survival of the richest for a long time.

    16
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Vanessa
    Favourite Vanessa
    Report
    Feb 13th 2021, 12:07 PM

    @Laura Walsh: The first lockdown was promoted that way but they pretty much revealed that they want to use rolling lockdowns to battle the crisis. It’s sadly the only plan we have.

    12
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Brian Ó Dálaigh
    Favourite Brian Ó Dálaigh
    Report
    Feb 13th 2021, 12:08 PM

    @Bert Carolan: humanity speaks of protecting the vulnerable from one corner of their mouth while supporting a political and economic structure which kills millions, enslaves children, keeps 100s millions in poverty and decimates ecological systems. Protecting the vulnerable is a catchphrase that’s nice to hear, but it has never been true.

    21
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Bert Carolan
    Favourite Bert Carolan
    Report
    Feb 13th 2021, 12:14 PM

    @Laura Walsh: Covid should and could have been one time where this was not the case, where all countries and companies would forget about profit and respond. I was niave I suppose but I have to believe that mankind can rise above short term profit. Otherwise my children will have an ugly future.

    1
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Brian Ó Dálaigh
    Favourite Brian Ó Dálaigh
    Report
    Feb 13th 2021, 12:20 PM

    @Bert Carolan: mankind will never rise above short term profit. It has never done so in the past, it doesn’t do so now, and it never will.

    11
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Eamonn Martin
    Favourite Eamonn Martin
    Report
    Feb 13th 2021, 12:40 PM

    @Brian Ó Dálaigh: Well said Brian, protecting the vulnerable, all in this together, another few weeks. Whatever the slogan of the day happens to be, it’s just soundbites. The real shame here is that most can’t see the shambles that’s unfolding.
    As the soap opera unfolds, I’m wondering what excuses or blame game will the govt be playing in another year or so.

    17
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Bert Carolan
    Favourite Bert Carolan
    Report
    Feb 13th 2021, 12:51 PM

    @Brian Ó Dálaigh: Then we’re doomed as a species. Ah no, I still have faith despite all.

    3
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Patrick FitzGerald
    Favourite Patrick FitzGerald
    Report
    Feb 13th 2021, 12:52 PM

    @Laura Walsh: Several years? At least two decades unfortunately. What truly beggars belief at least in my mind is that everyone seems to forget about our current Taoiseach being the minister for health in the early 2000s when the trolley crisis began in earnest. He presided over the beginning of the crisis and did absolutely nothing to resolve it, and that chronic mismanagement of the health service is ultimately the same mismanagement that has led it into such severe inadequacy today.

    I honestly can’t fathom how this isn’t brought up more often. He was the de facto Táiniste in the coalition-that-wasn’t-a-coalition prior to this government taking office last year and he regularly lambasted Simon Harris for his appalling management of the health service – the lack of self awareness was staggering, it was like watching Father Dougal call Cyril McDuff an eejit every time the two of them locked horns over the issue.

    In other words, the man whose government previously sowed the seeds of the health service crisis while he was the responsible minister, spent the next decade in opposition criticising his successor for continuing the same disastrous policy chain he initially set in motion, and is now the leader of the entire country – during an unprecedented international public health emergency.

    The writers of House of Cards, Yes Minister or The Thick Of It would struggle to sell as outrageously far-fetched a storyline for their respective TV series’ without losing the audience over the suspension of disbelief. It’s incredible. And it’s almost never brought up in current discourse which I just find absolutely bizarre.

    16
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute janet
    Favourite janet
    Report
    Feb 13th 2021, 2:41 PM

    @Iblis: with over 70s not vaccinated until the end of may, yes we’ll be back in the 1950s

    2
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Trev heff
    Favourite Trev heff
    Report
    Feb 13th 2021, 9:52 AM

    I am sick of this.

    192
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Brendan Cooney
    Favourite Brendan Cooney
    Report
    Feb 13th 2021, 10:02 AM

    @Trev heff: not anywhere as sick as the people who are ill with it.

    84
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Jim Lingk
    Favourite Jim Lingk
    Report
    Feb 13th 2021, 10:12 AM

    @Brendan Cooney: but sicker that the people who have it and are not ill with it.

    122
    See 19 more replies ▾
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Jim Lingk
    Favourite Jim Lingk
    Report
    Feb 13th 2021, 10:14 AM

    @Jim Lingk: sicker than

    7
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute JusticeForJoe
    Favourite JusticeForJoe
    Report
    Feb 13th 2021, 11:01 AM

    @Jim Lingk: Isn’t that great for them? Or are you saying they’re the ones that we should all be more concerned about?

    7
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Brian Ó Dálaigh
    Favourite Brian Ó Dálaigh
    Report
    Feb 13th 2021, 12:12 PM

    @JusticeForJoe: you’re actually not concerned about them. You have simply found a platform you can corrupt to mistreat others and voice your supremacy. The style and language you take, combined with your choices of words, all prove that you don’t care about others; you just want to be “better than them.” This pandemic created the perfect set of circumstances for you to bully, denigrate and insult people you deem unworthy.

    32
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute JusticeForJoe
    Favourite JusticeForJoe
    Report
    Feb 13th 2021, 12:20 PM

    @Brian Ó Dálaigh: Ok Brian

    1
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Joe Moore
    Favourite Joe Moore
    Report
    Feb 13th 2021, 12:21 PM

    @Brian Ó Dálaigh: Well said Brian, I completely agree.

    23
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute JusticeForJoe
    Favourite JusticeForJoe
    Report
    Feb 13th 2021, 12:54 PM

    @Joe Moore: There’s a surprise. Pair of covidiots agree with each other

    3
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Frances Casey
    Favourite Frances Casey
    Report
    Feb 13th 2021, 1:01 PM

    @JusticeForJoe: Then you lower yourself even further by name calling!!

    20
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute JusticeForJoe
    Favourite JusticeForJoe
    Report
    Feb 13th 2021, 1:14 PM

    @Frances Casey: Like these lads are gonna listen to reason. I have nothing to lose or gain here and couldn’t care less what these people think of me.

    2
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute JusticeForJoe
    Favourite JusticeForJoe
    Report
    Feb 13th 2021, 1:16 PM

    @Frances Casey: Did anyone even refer to anything I actually said? No. Brian just came out with fists swinging because he clearly has his opinion set already. I’m glad the covidiots hate me. It reassures me.

    2
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Jim Lingk
    Favourite Jim Lingk
    Report
    Feb 13th 2021, 1:17 PM

    @JusticeForJoe: yes it is great for them. It is often forgotten and rarely mentioned that vast majority of people who get Covid also recover from Covid, and plenty of people have Covid and are never ill with Covid.

    15
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute JusticeForJoe
    Favourite JusticeForJoe
    Report
    Feb 13th 2021, 1:18 PM

    @Jim Lingk: It’s never forgotten and it’s always mentioned! The numbers are all on the covid app! Why the hell do you people keep lying this and thinking you’re taking some sort of moral high ground. It’d be laughable if it wasn’t so despicable.

    4
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Vanessa
    Favourite Vanessa
    Report
    Feb 13th 2021, 1:19 PM

    @Brian Ó Dálaigh: Well said. His further reactions are proofinyou right.

    12
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute JusticeForJoe
    Favourite JusticeForJoe
    Report
    Feb 13th 2021, 1:44 PM

    @Vanessa: No they don’t. They reassert what I’ve always been saying myself, which is why Brian and his ilk hate me. I have nothing but disdain and utter contempt for covidiots and Trump fans. The ones who are both hate me twice as much.
    I have no problem with anyone else at all. I actually get along very well with most people. Just not on these articles. That’s ok with me.

    2
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Ainm
    Favourite Ainm
    Report
    Feb 13th 2021, 2:12 PM

    @Brendan Cooney: only a small proportion of people who have it actually get seriously ill.

    5
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Brian Ó Dálaigh
    Favourite Brian Ó Dálaigh
    Report
    Feb 13th 2021, 3:21 PM

    @JusticeForJoe: To prove my point, you just used derogatory language simply because I don’t lick your boots. I’m fully aware of how dangerous the virus is. What I don’t agree with is governments imposing restrictions while not adhering to them themselves. I don’t agree with bowing down to JusticeForJoe-style populism. I don’t agree with slashing mental health services when they are needed most. I don’t agree with using insults because someone does not agree. I don’t believe in separating families. I do believe non-essential sun holidays should not happen. I do agree large gatherings should not happen. I do agree with masks, distancing, hygiene and vaccines. So, what exactly is your definition of a Covidiot? Because it sounds like anyone who doesn’t 100% agree with you.

    14
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Jim Lingk
    Favourite Jim Lingk
    Report
    Feb 13th 2021, 3:25 PM

    @JusticeForJoe: it is not mentioned in this article. It is not mentioned in most articles in the media.

    3
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Brian Ó Dálaigh
    Favourite Brian Ó Dálaigh
    Report
    Feb 13th 2021, 3:49 PM

    @JusticeForJoe: for the record, I don’t support Trump and I don’t hate you. I just wish people like you had a bit of empathy for those struggling right now. Your commentary – including use of derogatory language at nearly every turn – shows signs of a sociopath. You’re highly focused and blinkered and anyone or anything that slightly goes against your opinions are bulldozed to the side to be sneered at and mocked. You show no understanding of how human psychology works when trying to get people on board. Understanding nuance and long term implications are also absent in your thinking. That’s not to say you don’t have those qualities; it’s just that right now, for whatever reason known only to you, you choose not to care about others.

    13
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Vanessa
    Favourite Vanessa
    Report
    Feb 13th 2021, 3:59 PM

    @JusticeForJoe: They don’t hate you. He called out your behaviour. Your claims are without any foundation. If article turning you like that stay away from them until you can reflect on that.

    3
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Brian Ó Dálaigh
    Favourite Brian Ó Dálaigh
    Report
    Feb 13th 2021, 6:39 PM

    @JusticeForJoe: further, Joe Moore and I are not in the same camp; I do not share many of Joe’s opinions regarding Covid. The difference is that Joe and I can have an actual honest and civil debate, questioning and answering each other. You can’t. The second anyone brings up a question or utters even a slight difference of opinion, you call them a Covidiot and openly question their intelligence without ever even engaging the point. Yes, I came out fists flying today; but only because for several months you have been attacking me and I’ve had enough of your slander, bile and lies. The worst part is that you don’t even seem to realise that you attack almost everyone around you – that is another classic symptom of a sociopath.

    4
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute artur filip
    Favourite artur filip
    Report
    Feb 13th 2021, 10:34 AM

    I hope that doesn’t mean we are going to be locked in forever. Hopefully this the last lockdown. I have been living in Ireland for several years and I must say people changed.
    Irish people used to be more easy going but since that pandemic started people changed a lot. There is so many bad things. I am reading comments here and people getting really upset so easy. For example all that issues with traveling and penalties for breaking the rules. At beginning people were saying 100e is not enough should be 500e week later no 5000 etc.
    Than some people were saying no should be prison sentence. I think if someone going away and coming back to Ireland negative PCR test should be ok plus maybe 5 days quarantine in hotel and repeat test after 5 days just to make sure but putting people in hotel for 14 days doesn’t make sens unless government want help hospitality industry this way.
    Another thing I have noticed anyone with some uncertainty about vaccine is marked as tin foil hat or Gemma supporter.
    Covid is not the same like flu there is no doubt people dying in my wife’s nursing home over 20 people died due the outbreak.
    Myself and my family we all got infected I still have a lot issues and I am not sure if they ever go away. I just wondering if people are going to change back I think this pandemic has permanently changed some people mentally.
    I am really concerned about my daughter’s if they will able to live in such World. I hope my comment haven’t offended anyone is just my humble opinion.

    179
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Frances Casey
    Favourite Frances Casey
    Report
    Feb 13th 2021, 10:56 AM

    @artur filip: Every thing you said is completely true. It shouldn’t offend anyone but it should make people take a long hard look at themselves. The vitriol in a lot of comments here at times is horrendous. Everybody blaming everyone else. If anyone dares query lockdowns, vaccines etc they are pounced upon immediately as conspiracy theorists or worse. The nature of this country has changed dramatically in the last year and definitely not for the best.

    108
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute JusticeForJoe
    Favourite JusticeForJoe
    Report
    Feb 13th 2021, 11:19 AM

    @artur filip: It’s certainly having a devastating effect in a huge number of ways. It’s happening the world over, though. I don’t think we’re all that unique. I really wish you the very best with your recovery.

    26
    See 6 more replies ▾
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Tom kenny
    Favourite Tom kenny
    Report
    Feb 13th 2021, 11:39 AM

    @artur filip: comment of the day

    24
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute NotMyIreland
    Favourite NotMyIreland
    Report
    Feb 13th 2021, 11:40 AM

    @artur filip: I think its the pandemic coupled with social media and using it to fill the time. I’d hope that maybe as life returns to normal the majority won’t have the time to get outraged about the small things anymore. When your living as restricted as we are now people look to social media to fill the gap in their lives and give them a sense of purpose. Once the busy “rat race” of everyday life resumes hopefully we will only be left with the extremists still spreading such vitriol.

    16
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Joe Moore
    Favourite Joe Moore
    Report
    Feb 13th 2021, 11:44 AM

    @artur filip: People are just under a lot of stress and their true nature gets tossed aside in the mayhem. Things will change back and things will be really good again.

    15
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Vanessa
    Favourite Vanessa
    Report
    Feb 13th 2021, 12:10 PM

    @Joe Moore: The article is stating that it us assumed that it stays

    3
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Joe Moore
    Favourite Joe Moore
    Report
    Feb 13th 2021, 12:28 PM

    @Vanessa: I know, but with vaccine rollout now and summer coming things should be coming back to semblence of normality. There will still be restrictions for quite some time but it will be an endemic disease that we will just have to live with. Just like all the other ones we lived with before Covid.

    9
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Vanessa
    Favourite Vanessa
    Report
    Feb 13th 2021, 3:54 PM

    @Joe Moore: We can only hope

    1
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Conor Kiely
    Favourite Conor Kiely
    Report
    Feb 13th 2021, 10:44 AM

    Please amend the article to make it accurate. 2.7M people died “with” covid. Not “from” covid.
    While tragically the number of deaths with covid this winter in Ireland is significant, it may be reassuring for those who are worried that overall mortality this winter is below average for Ireland. In fact November and December show the lowest sustained average mortality for many years. Source: https://www.euromomo.eu/graphs-and-maps/
    This is clearly a deadly virus when out of control – but this winter is having nowhere the impact on overall mortality here in Ireland than it did during the first wave.

    84
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Joe Moore
    Favourite Joe Moore
    Report
    Feb 13th 2021, 11:50 AM

    @Conor Kiely: Why do you think Ireland is no excess deaths while England is extraordinarily high excess and then Scotland is high excess ? Strange don’t you think ?

    4
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Joe Moore
    Favourite Joe Moore
    Report
    Feb 13th 2021, 11:51 AM

    @Conor Kiely: Sorry Wales too are no excess

    3
    See 8 more replies ▾
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Conor Kiely
    Favourite Conor Kiely
    Report
    Feb 13th 2021, 12:36 PM

    @Joe Moore: Simply because we are doing a better job at supressing the spread of the virus than England are right now. While the numbers of cases and deaths last April and this January in Ireland look comparable on the graphs – they are not as we are doing 5 times as much testing now as we were then. We pick up a lot of weak positives where the virus is present but people are asymptomatic and do not have the disease. This applies to both case numbers and death numbers. Testing protocols vary across countries and test-kit manufacturers, and the UK’s are different to ours so the covid numbers are not very comparable across countries. January’s spike here was significant – but effectively suppressed by the extent of our lockdown and adherence to same.

    5
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Joe Moore
    Favourite Joe Moore
    Report
    Feb 13th 2021, 1:00 PM

    @Conor Kiely: ok thanks for the reply, appreciate it.

    1
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute David Jordan
    Favourite David Jordan
    Report
    Feb 13th 2021, 1:52 PM

    @Conor Kiely: This is Misinformed nonsense, it has been corrected multiple times but keeps popping up.

    Ireland and most other countries (Russia was an exception, requiring an autopsy which suppresses their true death toll) record deaths from / caused by COVID-19 based on Death Certificates, that list a cause of death i.e. “the underlying causes of death”.

    The underlying cause of death and subsequent sequence of conditions / diseases that lead to a death is listed a death certificate in sequence e.g.

    Covid-19 -> viral pneumonia -> Acute Respiratory Distress Syndrome -> Death

    A death certificate is filled out by a doctor who treated the patient. The guidenace is provided by the WHO, which most government agencies follow. The international standards allows countries to be compared:

    “A death due to COVID-19 is defined for surveillance purposes as a death resulting from a clinically compatible illness, in a probable or confirmed COVID-19 case, unless there is a clear alternative cause of death that cannot be related to COVID disease (e.g. trauma).”

    Notice the guidance says “due to” i.e. from, caused by, the result of. The guidelines also say…

    “There should be no period of complete recovery from COVID-19 between illness and death. A death due to COVID-19 may not be attributed to another disease (e.g. cancer) and should be counted independently of pre-existing conditions that are suspected of triggering a severe course of COVID-19″

    In Ireland, if a death is subsequently found not to be from COVID-19 a denotification will be issued and a death incorrectly assigned will be removed.

    I noticed 4 denotification were issued last week.

    Your confusion is probably due the UK’s policy of recoding all deaths within 28 days of a positive test as a Covid-19 death. This is unique to the UK, as far as I know. However, they also have a second list based on Death Certificates, which follows WHO guidance. This is maintained by the Office of National Statistics. Deaths from COVID-19 are similar to the stats for deaths within 28 days of a positive test.

    References:

    https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/in/vs/informationnoteontheimplicationsofcovid-19ontheprocessingofdeathcertificates/

    https://www.who.int/classifications/icd/Guidelines_Cause_of_Death_COVID-19.pdf

    3
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute David Jordan
    Favourite David Jordan
    Report
    Feb 13th 2021, 2:21 PM

    @Conor Kiely: “We pick up a lot of weak positives where the virus is present but people are asymptomatic and do not have the disease.”

    Testing asymptomatic cases and close contacts was suspended between December 31 and January 29. During this time we only tested cases that had symptoms. So the big increase in infections in January wasn’t due to testing mild or asymptomatic cases (weak positives).

    Also, did we see a big jump in infections after we resumed testing close contacts on Jan 29th? No, we did not.

    This shows that testing close contacts (some of whom are weak positive) doesn’t contribute much to the number of infections detected, maybe 10%-20%. At least small enough that it wasn’t noticed when resumed testing close contacts.

    Also, a weak positive test in a person who is a close contact may be due to them getting tested within their incubation period, before they fall ill with symptoms. That’s the point of contact tracing, finding people before they fall ill and infect others.

    In that case they are presymptomatic, not asymptomatic. About 25% of cases remain fully asymptomatic, never experienced symptoms. Asymptomatic cases are likely capable of infecting others, but the rate they do so is unknown but at a likely a fraction of the rate a person who has symptoms. But the risk is there.

    https://www.thejournal.ie/close-contact-testing-5337288-Jan2021/

    2
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute David Jordan
    Favourite David Jordan
    Report
    Feb 13th 2021, 3:11 PM

    @Cono Kiely: “In fact November and December show the lowest sustained average mortality for many years.”

    This is also highly misleading.

    Euromono data ends in December. But we experienced, so far, 1,420 Covid-19 deaths in January and February. We had 138 Covid-19 deaths in November and 168 Covid-19 deaths in December. That’s why excess deaths in Dec and Nov weren’t increased.

    I really would love you to explain why you think statistics for November and December on Euromono somehow prove Covid-19 deaths in January and February didn’t happen.

    Please explain.

    In fact, RIP shows that excess deaths peaked at 50% higher than normal this January, 150 death notices were posted per day by the end of January, when the average for the time of year should have been 100 per day. In fact, the number of deaths reported in Dublin, in January, was higher than the 1st wave of the outbreak last spring.

    “Levels of posting to RIP in South Dublin (Eircodes A94, A96, D14, D18, D16) have surpassed the first wave of the #covid19 pandemic. Dublin South was the least affected region of Dublin in terms of excess mortality in the first wave:

    Dempsey, R., Parnell, A., McCarron, P. and McCarthy, G., 2021. Excess Mortality in Dublin during the Covid-19 Pandemic: Using RIP as a geographical source. Irish Geography, 53(2), pp.163-172. http://irishgeography.ie/index.php/irishgeography/article/view/1421/1163

    https://twitter.com/ger_the_sea/status/1359111775808069633

    1
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Conor Kiely
    Favourite Conor Kiely
    Report
    Feb 13th 2021, 3:46 PM

    @David Jordan: Now David you are drawing conclusions that I did not infer, and there are some inaccuracies in your responses. Testing of asymptomatic cases was not suspended in January, only close contacts. We did over a half a million tests in January and many were positive but asymptomatic – as would have been alluded to in the daily briefings.

    I never said statistics for November and December on Euromono somehow prove Covid-19 deaths in January and February didn’t happen. Where on earth did you get that from? Very misleading response. There have been deaths caused by covid in all these months – and also deaths where people tested positive with covid. Despite your request for me to expIain January’s deaths – I did not mention January deaths in my post at all (apart from stating that January’s spike was significant but we did a good job in suppressing it). I only said that – despite covid – our overall death rate in Nov/Dec was below average – which is quite unusual for Winter months.

    Even the HSPC’s own hub reports the total death as “includes probable and possible” and in it’s weekly reports us “Number of deaths among confirmed cases” – not “deaths from covid”.

    You’re reacting like I’m some covid denier when I’ve said this is clearly a deadly virus. I’d expect a less reactionary and more considered response. My overall point is that if overall mortality is down – people’s outlook does not need to be so negative. It’s hard enough for folks – and surely a good-news story if less people died from Oct-Dec than normally do?

    5
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute David Jordan
    Favourite David Jordan
    Report
    Feb 13th 2021, 5:16 PM

    @Conor Kiely: “Where on earth did you get that from?”

    From what you wote…

    “While tragically the number of deaths with covid this winter in Ireland is significant, it may be reassuring for those who are worried that overall mortality this winter is below average for Ireland.”

    No it’s not below average anymore, as there were 1420 deaths in January – February, with excess deaths posted to RIP peaking at 50% higher than the average for the time of year.

    However, I have to admit I was rash in thinking you were claiming this despite a lack of data.

    I see on Euromono, data for Ireland continues to February, but as yet the excess deaths in Jan and Feb aren’t picked up on the graph. There must be delay in reporting to Euromono. If we chech back in a few weeks, .I expectthe excess deaths to show up on the graph.

    As for the reason why non-Covid deaths were down in November and December,…

    Social distancing measures resulted in fewer non-Covid deaths due to far fewer cases of influenza and pneumonia, an ironic benift of the pandemic and the social distancing measures we imposed.

    Now thinking about it, since non-Covid deaths are down, that means the excess deaths connected to Covid-19, seen in January and February on RIP, are greater than inferred from the increase over the 5-year average. The baseline is lower, so Covid-19 deaths are somewhat higher then the 50 deaths per day initially calculated.

    “How COVID-19 is changing the cold and flu season”

    “Measures meant to tame the coronavirus pandemic are quashing influenza and most other respiratory diseases, which could have wide-ranging implications.”

    https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-03519-3

    1
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Conor Kiely
    Favourite Conor Kiely
    Report
    Feb 13th 2021, 7:51 PM

    @David Jordan: there you go again David. I specifically mention November and December as having lower than average death rates but you ignore this and nitpick at my reference to “winter” by quoting January statistics, despite my referencing the January spike, and despite these 2 months (Nov/Dec) having the highest monthly reported covid death rates in the 2nd half of the year. Crikey – talk about extinguishing any little crumb of positivity ….

    1
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute kevin mc cormack
    Favourite kevin mc cormack
    Report
    Feb 13th 2021, 10:17 AM

    Il assume then that all the oppressive new laws pushed through will be staying also

    53
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Rathminder
    Favourite Rathminder
    Report
    Feb 13th 2021, 9:56 AM

    Is it really the vaccine that has caused a drop in cases? It hasn’t been given to that many people. Or is it that we are locked down and realising that we need to take it seriously? I still see college age people clustering outdoors unmasked at take-outs, but I also see more people masking on the street.

    41
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Kevin Hill
    Favourite Kevin Hill
    Report
    Feb 13th 2021, 10:36 AM

    @Rathminder: we are the equivalent of a small town in terms of population compared with the likes of India. Their cases are plummeting even though social distancing and lockdowns are virtually impossible there. That gives me hope that previous infection in the community can give some future immunity.

    40
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Liam Preston
    Favourite Liam Preston
    Report
    Feb 13th 2021, 10:53 AM

    Covid will remain with us like the flu remains with us. Take your yearly booster vaccine you’ll be fine.

    37
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Sean Ryan
    Favourite Sean Ryan
    Report
    Feb 13th 2021, 9:58 AM

    We know this already surely?

    25
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Jim Lingk
    Favourite Jim Lingk
    Report
    Feb 13th 2021, 10:13 AM

    @Sean Ryan: I would have thought so too.

    11
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Terry Cahill
    Favourite Terry Cahill
    Report
    Feb 13th 2021, 11:23 AM

    The EU experts need to shut up and hang their collective heads in shame ! How many people in Europe are dead now because they could not manage the procurement of the various vaccines or the timely rollout ?
    The UK are actively trying to persuade their last unwilling vulnerable people to please come and take the job as they want to have 15 million vaccinated by Monday ! And all we do is sit and wait.
    History will write the European effort as a Disastrous Failure.

    30
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Seamus Mac
    Favourite Seamus Mac
    Report
    Feb 13th 2021, 12:04 PM

    @Terry Cahill: many countries have procured vaccines outside of what the eu is allocating them. Why are we not doing the same?

    21
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Terry Cahill
    Favourite Terry Cahill
    Report
    Feb 13th 2021, 1:36 PM

    @Seamus Mac: Good question . We are told it would be chaotic and we would be at the end of the queue as a smaller country . I don’t believe that’s true . Despite any differences I think the UK would supply us with the AZ independently and we would be looked on favourably by other producers too. I just think we are slavishly following the EU’s say so while they are admitting their culpability and , of course , it would involve a lot of effort .. something there’s not much of on offer at Leinster House.

    11
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Kim Steen Hansen
    Favourite Kim Steen Hansen
    Report
    Feb 13th 2021, 9:45 AM

    With the vaccine role out, we should almost be at the end. At least that what I keep reading in all the comments. Looks like it will take a long while.

    16
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Tony Humphreys
    Favourite Tony Humphreys
    Report
    Feb 13th 2021, 10:05 AM

    @Kim Steen Hansen: many love lockdown – that’s the problem

    105
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Francis Mc Carthy
    Favourite Francis Mc Carthy
    Report
    Feb 13th 2021, 10:10 AM

    @Tony Humphreys: many are spreading false misinformation online- much bigger problem.

    37
    See 2 more replies ▾
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Kim Steen Hansen
    Favourite Kim Steen Hansen
    Report
    Feb 13th 2021, 10:11 AM

    @Francis Mc Carthy: like what? I tend to agree.

    10
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Kim Steen Hansen
    Favourite Kim Steen Hansen
    Report
    Feb 13th 2021, 10:12 AM

    @Tony Humphreys: I know, they also believe that everything will be “normal” again in only very few weeks.

    24
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Virgil
    Favourite Virgil
    Report
    Feb 13th 2021, 1:10 PM

    We’ll probably have to accept 750-1000 deaths per year from Covid, in the same way we accept the flu deaths. This has to be the last serious lockdown

    15
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Gavin Linden
    Favourite Gavin Linden
    Report
    Feb 13th 2021, 2:31 PM

    @Virgil: unfortunately I think not. If any thing I get the impression that restrictions will be ramped up. There has been a slow quiet move recently to down play any positive outcomes the vaccines may have and that is concerning. I have been positive to now on a return to some semblance of normalcy but in reality I see nothing opening in a meaningful way this year anyway. I’d say the next great saviour to be rolled out will be based on treatments and we will be still locking down until that great hope runs out of steam. What’s after? I really don’t know.

    3
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Ainm
    Favourite Ainm
    Report
    Feb 13th 2021, 2:11 PM

    No $h1t Sherlock. Of course it’s going to remain with us. It’s time the government started planning for getting us out of this and actually living with Covid rather than rolling lockdowns. It can’t go on.

    16
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Michael Maher
    Favourite Michael Maher
    Report
    Feb 13th 2021, 1:51 PM

    Wonder will the winter flu ever come back?

    10
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Paul Cunningham
    Favourite Paul Cunningham
    Report
    Feb 13th 2021, 10:49 AM

    Sounds like the EU is putting waving the white flag of defeat. Hugely disappointing.

    15
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Merlin Lancelot
    Favourite Merlin Lancelot
    Report
    Feb 13th 2021, 11:48 AM

    They are dropping the peasants with bits of information.

    11
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute patrick o keeffe
    Favourite patrick o keeffe
    Report
    Feb 13th 2021, 11:54 AM

    Jaysus Mickey Martin mightn’t even get his trip to Washington next year and that’s his last chance as Tea shock.

    7
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Tomo
    Favourite Tomo
    Report
    Feb 13th 2021, 6:44 PM

    So in other words shaming people for using public transport or walking in the Wicklow mountains is going to continue forever? And people who use aeroplanes are going to be criminals forever?

    8
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Kevin McNally
    Favourite Kevin McNally
    Report
    Feb 13th 2021, 4:05 PM

    Please give it a rest. We’re already stuck at home for another few months at least as cases fall across Europe. There’s several vaccines all with ~90% efficacy being rolled out at pace across the world. Why the hell should it be with us indefinitely? Messages like this from people who wield power are more likely to make people give up than comply

    4
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Jim Lingk
    Favourite Jim Lingk
    Report
    Feb 13th 2021, 8:19 PM

    @Kevin McNally: we have vaccines for ‘normal’ flus and we live with those. We need to do likewise with Covid19.

    5
    Install the app to use these features.
    Mute Keth Warsaw
    Favourite Keth Warsaw
    Report
    Feb 13th 2021, 10:19 AM

    Evolution of a species, in the face of an exterior force, doesn’t have to remain in a one state of reaction. That’s why we call it evolution. Hopefully we will evolve /react to the virus as a species that best suits us, as a whole.

    1
Submit a report
Please help us understand how this comment violates our community guidelines.
Thank you for the feedback
Your feedback has been sent to our team for review.
JournalTv
News in 60 seconds