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EVERY EVENING, TheJournal.ie brings you the latest news and campaign moves, squabbles and – hopefully – useful tidbits of information as we face into the 31 May Fiscal Compact referendum.
(If you just want to make up your mind by yourself, you can read TheJournal.ie’s layman’s guide to the treaty).
WHAT’S NEW?
LATE OLYMPIC BID OF THE DAY
It’s too late, Joan. Sorry.
HIGHLY ORIGINAL SLOGAN OF THE DAY
Junior minister Alan Kelly with Henry Healy – Barack Obama’s distant cousin – come up with a new catchphrase for the Yes side in Moneygall, Co Offaly.
PREDICTION OF THE DAY
COLOURING INSIDE THE LINES AWARD OF THE DAY
YouTube/IrishLabourParty
The Labour Party bring you this animation explaining the ins and outs of the Treaty. No word yet on who did the crayon work.
THREAT OF THE DAY
Somewhere in Frankfurt, a chill just went down Mario Draghi’s spine.
I’m really surprised at how simplistic the article is for someone who holds a PHD. Getting people into STEM subjects is important, but not to overshadow the rest of higher education, and not to overlook all the glaring issues that are raised.
First of all, it’s not so easy to just choose STEM, as if STEM and Arts are of equivalent difficulty. STEM is hard stuff, it’s challenging, and it is rigourous. It takes a certain aptitude and mindset to take it up, and people should choose carefully their paths so that they end up somewhere that suits them.
Second, the article overlooks the entire debate about the purpose of education. A lot of people just want to push everyone into STEM degrees because they think Arts degrees hold no value. Implicit in this argument is the idea that universities are ultimately job training programs, and not places to challenge one’s beliefs and study how we got to the place we are in now as a civilisation. It’s just as important to develop and criticise one’s values, and the values of society as a whole as it is to learn to program in Java or C#. We desperately need people who are willing to evaluate the staus quo and to make smarter choices about where society is going. We may right now even need this more than more engineers and medical experts.
Finally, not everything in society needs to be monetised. Education, I think is one of those things. The more we try and fit everything into a narrow mold and to assign it a value, the less we understand about its value. The author talks about the ‘digital age’ as if we have purely different needs as a society now that computing is ubiquitous. The irony is that I am saying this as a STEM grad. In programming we learn that the time spent designing the system and clarifying it’s objectives before ever writing code is the most important part. That’s how you write the correct software correctly. We need Arts degrees to help with this process; their skills help us design a better society.
Well said. It is almost as if the author expects everyone to be a robot, and places no value with anybody that might want to take a different path.
Nail on the head Rob, maybe you should have written the article instead.
The irony is that we are pushing everyone into STEM and into the big multinationals who are leading the tech charge, and are spending very little time dealing with the ramifications.
Take privacy for example, so many of the big companies, including the big 4, think of our data as their products to sell to third parties. The average consumer seems to think that they can contribute to the web their personal details and then object when those things are sold or wind up indexed by Google. Programmers just learn how to implement systems that do what they are designed to do. Nobody is asking, really challenging, the idea that social media and marketing may not be good things after all.
We need people who’ve studied history. Who have studied philosophy and ethics. People who think the answer to the question of whether we ‘should’ do something is more important than whether we ‘could’ do something. Those kinds of things are intrinsic components of arts, and they are needed now more than ever.
Fareed Zakaria will explain it far better than I can. http://globalpublicsquare.blogs.cnn.com/2014/05/24/why-the-liberal-arts-matter/
I would love to see the opportunity to study business and arts modules while perusing a degree in a STEM field. I always thought this was lacking in undergrad education.
I think I agree with a lot of your sentiments but I have to jump in and challenge the idea that STEM degrees are purely ‘job training courses’ preparing people to become cogs in the new digital economy and offer nothing beyond that.
The title of the article says benefit ‘Society and the Economy’ and I think you’re disregarding the value to Society. Studying engineering, I had huge focus on sustainability in a lot of my project work and how building/infrastructure/technologies would affect society and future generation. This involves thinking critically about how society works and how people live – how people get to work, why do people live where they live, what might society look like in 20/100 years.
I’d also put it out there that ‘challenging beliefs, developing and criticizing your values and society’s values’ is something that everyone does or should in University anyway just by being exposed to new ideas and meeting new people through clubs/societies/travelling. I think that learning how to design a bridge or write code while doing this is more valuable (both societal and economical) than learning to critically analyze a poem or existentialism. I realize this probably feeds into your argument that I’m saying arts degrees have no value; I’m not but I do think the ratio of arts to STEM grads should be relative to the value they can offer society and Engineers will be the ones tackling global warming, drought, energy shortages in the future.
One last point, I agree that STEM degrees are hard work and theres no point in studying something you have no interest in (me having barely a word of Irish after 13 years is a prime example). However, I look at the CAO points and see Law/Finance/physio courses over 500 mark and know they’d be well able for any STEM courses. If thats what they’re interested in then I wouldn’t dream of telling them to do anything else but I presume this article is aimed at the ones that aren’t considering it because ‘Science is hard’ and ‘I can’t do Maths’.
Well said, Rob. Just ry and get funding from SFI for a theoretical physics or pure maths research project… It is not just STEM vs. arts, it is “profitable” vs. “non-profitable”, and in the most short-sighted, short-termist way possible.
You’re definitely right about STEM having value and for the reasons you mention. It does have critical thinking on a very powerful level, and it does solve problems about how we live. My criticism of STEM is that the ethical and philosophical components that go along with technology aren’t treated as importantly as they should be. They aren’t covered as intrinsic to the curriculum, although I can’t say that for all subjects. There were no ethics or philosophical modules to my STEM course, but there were in my Arts undergrad.
And in any case, I was not meaning that those value questioning exercises can’t be included in study. I think they should be. I was replying to the STEM good Arts bad dichotomy that is intrinsic in pushing people out of arts and into STEM, and also which is resulting in people saying that Arts degrees are worthless, that you can’t get a job with them, and generally telling students to avoid them.
I wasn’t meaning that STEM is a job-prep course, only that there are more to universities than just getting training for the job you intend to one day work. I was critical of the author for glossing over this huge issue, which is something I have heard many educators discuss. I really think 3rd level education should be intended to wholly widen a student’s knowledge base, and to test their assumptions about life and their beliefs in total, rather than to just impart useful skills. You mention analysing an existential poem being less valuable than designing a bridge, but to really understand existentialism you need to know about nihilism, the rise and fall of reason, and humanism. There are profound implications to ethics, morality, and in general one’s view of the world, that may for example mean abandoning a religion or criticising an economy. Or more importantly looking for evidence in order to accept any beliefs. Maybe those ethics would result in deciding not to build that bridge. But how would you know if you didn’t ever study these things? If you try to challenge your beliefs without proper study, you really are just into the ocean without realising how deep it really is.
If we had more ethical discussion, maybe we wouldn’t need engineers to tackle global warming. Instead maybe we’d have learned the value of and abandoned consumerism and rejected greed for sustainability without being forced to do so. Just a thought.
If we treat education like an ecosystem, we will only thrive with diversity. And if society feeds on this ecosystem, no diversity means the system will ultimately fail. STEM is easy because it has tangible value, and is easily monetised. But Arts have less tangible but I would argue just as much, if not more actual value in the long run. It’s just that having to transform ourselves into corporate-ready configuration in order to eat are necessities, and are really limiting change.
Your evaluation of STEM education does not at all align with my experience in Computer science in Ireland. Which inatitution (s) are you basing this on.
Ireland needs to lose its obsession with the liberal arts if we’re going to be able to continue attracting foreign direct investment.
We don’t need any more poets.
You’re evaluation of the offerings in Arts does not align with the spedtrum of what arts encompasses. Ireland isn’t obsessed with the Arts… quite the opposite is true. Everyone is deriding them and pushing people toward STEM.
The rest of comment is shallow. Attracting FDI has very little to do with Ireland’s 3rd level offerings. Most of it comes down to tax rates and tax planning laws. Don’t kid yourself. Most of the heavy design and coding projects for the big companies happen in other markets, including R&D. Most of what Ireland has to offer are support services. Ireland needs to lose its obsession with FDI at the expense of the rest of society and start making investments in itself.
We need a lot more poets and a lot less surveillance.
The most pondered philisilophical question of all time id “you want fries with that?”
Take no notice of this article. Pursue your own interests. Study those subjects that interest you most and which you feel you will help you get most out of yourself. Its stupid to be SMART if that doesn’t interest you.
Hmm… I know your just playing with language, but saying it’s “stupid to be smart”, makes you sound dumb and proud.
STEM is great but I agree that people shouldn’t take any heed of the career advice of older people. Do what you like and study what you like. The pressure being mounted on young people today is intense. People giving you conflicting advise from all angles. Do what your head tells you to do and never mind anyone else. On a related note, if anybody ever says “listen to your heart”, they are most likely an idiot.
Good point. Study, and work in what interests you, if you have a passion for your work you’ll probably be more successful than if you don’t. I can’t imagine what it would be like to work 40 hours per week in a job that bored me, no financial reward would be worth it.
We need to train up the youth for export.
What about Irish?. Isn’t it so important that it is a compulsory subject.
.. That’s the irony of Irish : compulsory and and irrelevant, especially in a STEM context.
Culture is important. Without it, we’d be like every other English speaking nation.
A semi-dead language doesn’t define a culture, its people does. And frankly I’d rather have an elite STEM work force than have some useless language forced down my throat. That’s a better culture to have than millions of people who can say a few words in broken Irish.
‘Semi dead’? Perhaps, some should focus on improving their English first.
A language does indeed define a culture.
Science jobs don’t pay very well at all.
@Tommy; I’m a plant biologist and for me, money was ancillary when choosing this area of work. Most people I think study stem because of a genuine interest.
Im a medical scientist and money was important because I wanted to look after my family. The pay is pittance.
and most science jobs are not just 9-5 Monday-Friday. You can find yourself in very late, in on weekends and over holidays. During the first year of my Ph.D i was making less than somebody on the dole would get, although your title is Ph.D student you are still a paid employee who needs to support yourself like anyone else in society. Most scientists dont start making “real money” until they’ve 10 years of education and training under their belt
“”Science is a wonderful thing if one does not have to earn one’s living at it”
-Albert Einstein”
-Michael Scott
What is the difference between a PhD in maths and a 15″ pizza? You can feed a family of 4 with the pizza.
While I would like to see a world where STEM jobs are as valued as the spoofing, marketing and call centre support jobs that the government throws it’s back into; we need to make sure our figures are right – for instance of the number of ICT jobs shown, how many of these are with facebook, google and paypal etc.., where in Ireland there is almost zero technology components to the jobs in each of these (sales/marketing, accounting, localisation)?
Until we replace religion time with science time in primary schools, and CSPE with ICT in secondary, then we will always be the India/China of Europe in the global employment scene.
Provided this great idea works (for everyone concerned) and loads of people go for the concept.
Doesn’t that in turn mean graduate’s earnings will go down because this is the new “standard”, e.g. earning a grade is kind of de-valuated?
Also – does this not leave behind / not cater for those of us who are not academically inclined?
Yes it does. Not every child is academically inclined and those that aren’t should not be made to feel inadequate or less because they are not interested in stem subjects. Society needs to function on the basis that talents and strengths differ and that there is a need and place for all regardless of ability and talent.
No because it’s not a zero-sum game. That’s the essence of networks / hubs of expertise. Once you reach a critical mass you can start to move everyone up the value chain.
Ultimately if everyone goes STEM the market gets saturated and both opportunities and wages decline to adjust for supply. Also not sure how real this ICT emergency really is. Most of the jobs I’m seeing require experience, and there is intense competition for the few grad jobs that are available.
There also might be a shortage because not everyone is interested in and talented for it.
Ultimately, not to get too futurist, but this is a symptom of larger economic changes that will happen. Pushing STEM is a temporary and medium-term objective. In the long-term the economy will have to radically change and the entire jobs-to-earn model must go. We might be better served getting ready for that rather than trying to hold on to things that are dissolving.
Many education reformers around the world are currently focusing their attention on the need for arts education and new research findings focus on the need to train teachers in the delivery of arts programmes. The great education debate is beginning to focus on what is being termed “adding the A to STEM” or “changing STEM to STEAM”. In case you don’t get the acronym, STEM is education that focuses on Science, Technology, Economics and Mathematics. The A of course is Arts! This push for reform and refocus stems, not alone from the belief that art education has an intrinsic value in its own right, but the belief that such art education promotes a wide variety of life skills crucial to success in general. This is allied to changes in the belief that the arts are reserved only for people with “talent” and the understanding that, in the context of today’s job market, it is creative individuals that are increasingly in demand. All business is struggling to find creative ways to stay in the market, in need of creative employees – arts education, it is argued, develops just such skilled individuals. CEOs around the world are identifying creativity as the most important leadership skill for the future. All list the following skills as the most needed skills
• The ability to think creatively
• The ability to find solutions to challenging problems
• The ability to relate well to partners and clients
• The ability to communicate effectively
• The ability to adapt to changing markets and circumstances
The problem in education is that increasingly children are no longer spending their formative years honing this critical skill – they are spending too much time practicing so-called core skills from STEM subject areas. STEAM education acknowledges that we are all creative and argues that developing this creativity throughout life leads to better careers
Have a positive impact on Ireland’s society and economy.
- philosophy at 2nd level to give the population a framework for sane decision making …no more bubbles .. how to Vote!.
- upgrade the universities to Techs … and deliver some sane graduates for Banking, Legal, Politician and Gov jobs.
I disagree with the author totally. It has been proved that STEAM and not STEM is the way forward in education as it creates creative thinkers. STEAM brings the ARTS back into focus in education – check out the work of Sir Ken Robinson to see what I mean.
The Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers spectrum site has a wide section pointing out that these same arguments have been made since the 1950s, with articles such as.
“Is It Fair to Steer Students into STEM Disciplines Facing a Glut of Workers?”
That business and management professions pay 25% more than STEM, and most non-STEM qualifications don’t have a half-life.
There were projections that 800,000 additional programmers would be needed in the States by 2012, but only 400,000 jobs were actually created.
http://spectrum.ieee.org/static/the-stem-crisis-is-a-myth-an-ongoing-discussion
This is all about pushing down wages, e.g. the Google, Apple, Adobe, Intel having no-cross-hiring recruitment agreements, and the lobbying for hundreds of thousands of Visa.
Just like Bausch and Lomb and their 20% cut demand.
STEM industries also need designers, project managers, people with languages etc. Technology is becoming a strong component across so many types of employment, so some degree of competency in these areas is valuable. For parents interested in supporting their kids that are interested in such a career there has been little by way of support to-date. Industry has been good at saying what it needs but not acting in a coordinated way. Guidance counsellors struggle to keep on top of what different career paths are out there for students that express an interest in STEM. This new programme represents some progress in the right direction to address that.
Indeed, not all students will, or should be, focused on STEM careers, but for those that are interested, they are often unaware of what is out there – they should be given better information and have a clearer picture of what that kind of a career entails, so they can decide if it’s the right type of job for them.
This programme is also about getting more role models in front of students, to try and break down and challenge some stereotypes – especially if we are to get more females thinking about working in these kinds of roles. That can only be a good thing.
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