We need your help now
Support from readers like you keeps The Journal open.
You are visiting us because we have something you value. Independent, unbiased news that tells the truth. Advertising revenue goes some way to support our mission, but this year it has not been enough.
If you've seen value in our reporting, please contribute what you can, so we can continue to produce accurate and meaningful journalism. For everyone who needs it.
Sign in. It’s quick, free and it’s up to you.
An account is an optional way to support the work we do. Find out more.
By continuing, you are indicating that you accept our Terms of Service and Privacy Policy.
SENATORS HAVE VOTED against an amendment to the ‘abortion bill’ that would have allowed for termination in the case of fatal foetal abnormality.
The amendment to the Protection of Life During Pregnancy Bill 2013 was tabled by Senators Fiach Mac Conghail and Mary Louise O’Donnell.
The amendment was defeated by 42 votes to 10.
It would have inserted a section making it lawful to carry out a medical procedure in respect of a pregnant woman:
in accordance with this section in the course of which, or as a result of which, a pregnancy is ended, where— (a) the medical procedure is carried out by an obstetrician at an appropriate institution, and (b) subject to section 19, two medical practitioners, having examined the pregnant woman, have jointly certified that the foetus in question has a fatal foetal abnormality.
The amendment would have also allowed for termination of pregnancy in cases of rape, incest, and inevitable miscarriage.
The discussion on this amendment lasted for around three hours, and saw heated debate and numerous points of orders being brought up by senators.
Voting
Fianna Fáil’s Averill Power and Mary White were the only members of their party to vote in favour of the amendment. Fianna Fáil members have a free vote on the issue.
No Fine Gael members voted in favour of it.
Those who did vote in favour were:
The discussion covered the issues of what constituted fatal foetal abnormalities – with some senators objecting to the discussion by others of Down Syndrome and disabilities, pointing out they were not fatal foetal abnormalities.
Senators Ronán Mullen and Jim Walsh said they had spoken to people who were conceived as a result of rape, and this had contributed to their rejection of the amendment.
Senator Ivana Bacik spoke of why the amendments were constitutionally outside the remits of the bill itself.
Senator Fidelma Healy-Eames rejected assertions that she made “a value judgement” on two sets of women who had decided on different approaches to their diagnoses of fatal foetal abnormality.
Senator David Norris spoke about the length of the discussion on the amendment, alleging it was “a political sleight of hand” to try and “force a guillotine through”.
I don’t really understand why you would vote no. If the baby is going to die, aborted or not, why not spare the woman some of the trauma and let her abort the baby. Stupid as far as I can see.
I’m not a legal expert, but I assume it’s because it’s constitutionally invalid. I mean, Ivana Bacik has been very vocal for more abortion rights for a long time, and she voted against it. What needs to be done is a large scale public consultation with opinions from all sides, and where everybody in Ireland can give an opinion, similar to the consultation for gay marriage in Scotland.
Using the results of that, a large referendum could be carried out with regards to these very issues. The consultation, however, is vital, or we’ll just end up with a situation where people are calling for a new minor referendum every week. Let’s clear up what the people of Ireland want in one large swoop.
Or just legalise abortion.
Those that want one, get one. Those that don’t, won’t have one.
Those that don’t care, won’t have to listen to politicians squabble about the issue and get back to real issues like saucy novellas and penalty points.
Either way, we need the referendum. I think the consultation process would alienate fewer people. Obviously we can’t please everyone, but the fewer dissatisfied people, the better, in my view.
A big thumbs up to the idea of more saucy novellas from ministers.
If you let your dog carry dying puppies around you’d be called cruel.
If your dog’s life was at risk because of her pregnancy, you’d end the pregnancy, no question.
Pregnant dogs get better medical care than pregnant women in this country.
Brilliantly put Niamh, if only our officials, directly elected and not could show such common sense and compassion to families in their darkest hour
I guess more business for Ryanair then.
This is one area around abortion that I really thought should be in there. It seems absolutely barbaric to me that in the case of fatal foetal abnormalities that women and their partners should have to go through months of knowing what lies ahead while people smile and get excited for the pending birth.
I just cannot imagine the immense emotional trauma that would cause. It’s certainly a choice that should be available (as it should for victims of rape and incest)
I have to admit some ignorance to the wording here – is there something there I’m missing in terms of the format of the wording? Anyone?
Its barbaric. Women or couples faced with fatal foetal abnormalities will be forced to travel to the UK. Its just shocking and there is no logic behind it.
oh you stupid selfish gobshi*es… devastating enough being told the baby you were longing for or planning for or happily surprised by has fatal abnormalities but then you cant even be treated by ur own doctor in the comfort of your own country with your family around to support you through a terrible terrible traumatic time no you have to get on a plane like you’re doing something wrong and leave the country for treatment. jesus. I’m just totally baffled by our government lately. are they not bloody human at all?
You Irish are strange…what an awful decision
You’re right Paul we irish are very strange. Whatever about the rest of it this definitely should have been passed.
42 cowardly bastards is what they are to be fair, and your right it makes us look “strange” at best to be represented by such idiots.. I’m not all for abortion on demand but I don’t feel it my decision to make. But this amendment so blatantly obvious it leaves only party politics and cowardice to blame.
Where’s the logic in voting no?
Because it is a very grey area. Many people are living quality lives having been diagnosed with FFA. However I personally think there are some grounds that could be legislated for and passed.
That’s not true. A FATAL fetal abnormality is just that. Fatal. Things like anencephaly ( no brain) Edwards syndrome, patau syndrome. The first you usually die in minutes the other two in days or months but no matter how long they live they never ever are walking around with a grand quality of life. Never.
That’s just not true, we’re talking about FATAL foetal abnormalities, not just foetal abnormalities. The clue is in the word fatal.
They had spoken to people who were conceived as a result of rape? Who cares?! What does that have to do with anything?
Everyone is going to be glad they exist. People conceived as a result of a condom breaking will surely be glad the condom broke. That doesn’t mean we should outlaw contraception.
I just finished reading this and am currently waiting to take off in Heathrow back to Dublin. An American tourist turned to me and asked if there was any time difference between the UK and Ireland. I looked back at the article and said to him “yeah, about 50 years”. It’s horrific and totally bewildering that a government that supposedly represents the people of Ireland don’t believe a woman who is made pregnant after being raped is allowed to make her own choice as to what is to be the outcome of that pregnancy.
This is such a travesty. No compassion for families and especially women who continue to be forced to carry dead or unviable tissue inside them often for months and all of the associated medical complications and heartbreak. This is not abortion but yet seems to be lumped into that debate. Awfully isolating for those many people affected by this. So much for our politicians representing “the people” :(
How selfish of them!
Rape, incest, fatal foetal abnormalities – Abort Abort Abort
Not only do families have the trauma of having to deliver their babies in the UK, its also a huge expense to them and often they cannot bring the bodies of their babies home. There is also no support here in arranging appointments at the hospital in the Uk. We are completely letting these people down in not allowing them to end their pregnancy here, at home, with family and loved ones around them, with the medical team they have come to know. It’s sickening.
I want this to go to public vote. Those clueless jackasses dont have a clue
Shocking decision, really disappointed at this :-(
“Senator Ivana Bacik spoke of why the amendments were constitutionally outside the remits of the bill itself.”
So why exactly did you vote against the amendment, Ivana?
..because the amendments were constitutionally outside the remits of the bill.
That means they’re bad (in the context that they would make the whole bill unconstitutional, thanks to good old article 40.3.3). Ans so she voted against it. Because if it had been passed, the whole bill would fail.
All amendments will be voted down – the FG senators guarantee that.
The time to show your true colours was now Ivana – to deny termination for fetal abnormality, rape and incest is an obscenity.
Ivana, soon the Seanad will be no more and your voice will be heard no more.
Good on David N!
@Connaughtabu – So you just ignored Aonghus’ comment to explain why Ivana Bacik voted against the amendment in order to have a go at her. Ivana Bacik has tirelessly worked for women’s rights over her career and I assume that if she reckons the amendment is unconstitutional then she knows what she’s talking about.
As we currently stand constitutionally rape and incest can not be grounds from termination. I assume again that because of the stupid wording of Article 40.3.3 fatal foetal abnormality also can’t be used as grounds unless the mother’s life was at risk. That’s simply the reality of the law and no bill can be in breach of it without being struck down. The next step on is to remove Article 40.3.3 but that is probably not going to happen under this current Government.
By the way if David Norris has his way the Senate will be around for a long time. You might want to think on that given your opposition to it.
Ivana is pro-choice, she had to vote against it as if it passed it would be unconstitutional because of the 8th amendment and then the whole bill would fail. Before cases of FFA or rape or health can be legislated for there needs to be a referendum to repeal the 8th amendment.
@Jim Walsh
I can read you know, honest!
Whether current amendments are constitutional is of little consequence.They will be defeated, will disappear and the current legislation will pass into law along with all its flaws.
People will ask in the future, “did no-one oppose it in the Oireachtas”? “Yes” they will answer “but only the usual suspects”
ps: I am not opposed to the Seanad or to Ivana Bacik’s presence it it – I had the privilege of voting her in. Indeed I would vote for its retention, once the position of senator ceased to be pensionable. But FG has decreed it will come to an end and I have no doubt it will.
The Seanad is a dying breed that is never really making headlines , except for ridiculous expense accounts. Is this dying breed desperate to show its worth.
Another reason to get rid of the senate ASAP. How dare they vote against this and make a woman go through the trauma of child birth when the foetus isn’t going to survive. Roll on the referendum to send these useless shower of xxxxxx out to pasture.
Blame the constitution not the Seanad (not that I’m in favour of retaining it anyway).
Good God almighty – what decade are these “Senators” living in ??? Fire the lot of them…………!!!!
Hang on, when exactly will abortion be allowed so? This is turning out to be the most watered down piece of legislation imaginable.
The bill that is being passed is to legislate for the conditions laid down by the X case which is all that it can do given the current wording of our Constitution. What is so difficult to understand about this?
Got on my high horse about this, I think this bill so badly flawed that i cannot understand anyone thinking it a good thing …however re the votes today as I understand it ..if the amendment had passed it would be unconstitutional because of the 8th amendment and as a result the whole bill would fail. So really there needs to be a referendum to repeal the 8th amendment…
This is a sad day for Irish women and families. We are represented by cowardly uncaring fools. We all need to do something to wake these people up….. Like contact all of our public representative and express our views to them, email, phone , write… We should demand a referendum to change the law. How can our public representatives think and behave so different to the views of people here? I am ashamed of our government and want to do something… What can I/ we do?
Use precise geolocation data. Actively scan device characteristics for identification. Store and/or access information on a device. Personalised advertising and content, advertising and content measurement, audience research and services development.
These cookies are necessary for the website to function and cannot be switched off in our systems. They are usually only set in response to actions made by you which amount to a request for services, such as setting your privacy preferences, logging in or filling in forms. You can set your browser to block or alert you about these cookies, but some parts of the site will not then work.
These cookies are set by a range of social media services that we have added to the site to enable you to share our content with your friends and networks. They are capable of tracking your browser across other sites and building up a profile of your interests. This may impact the content and messages you see on other websites you visit. If you do not allow these cookies you may not be able to use or see these sharing tools.
These cookies may be set through our site by our advertising partners. They may be used by those companies to build a profile of your interests and show you relevant adverts on other sites. They do not store directly personal information, but are based on uniquely identifying your browser and internet device. If you do not allow these cookies, you will experience less targeted advertising.
These cookies enable the website to provide enhanced functionality and personalisation. They may be set by us or by third party providers whose services we have added to our pages. If you do not allow these cookies then these services may not function properly.
These cookies allow us to count visits and traffic sources so we can measure and improve the performance of our site. They help us to know which pages are the most and least popular and see how visitors move around the site. All information these cookies collect is aggregated and therefore anonymous. If you do not allow these cookies we will not be able to monitor our performance.
Cookies, device or similar online identifiers (e.g. login-based identifiers, randomly assigned identifiers, network based identifiers) together with other information (e.g. browser type and information, language, screen size, supported technologies etc.) can be stored or read on your device to recognise it each time it connects to an app or to a website, for one or several of the purposes presented here.
Advertising presented to you on this service can be based on limited data, such as the website or app you are using, your non-precise location, your device type or which content you are (or have been) interacting with (for example, to limit the number of times an ad is presented to you).
Information about your activity on this service (such as forms you submit, content you look at) can be stored and combined with other information about you (for example, information from your previous activity on this service and other websites or apps) or similar users. This is then used to build or improve a profile about you (that might include possible interests and personal aspects). Your profile can be used (also later) to present advertising that appears more relevant based on your possible interests by this and other entities.
Advertising presented to you on this service can be based on your advertising profiles, which can reflect your activity on this service or other websites or apps (like the forms you submit, content you look at), possible interests and personal aspects.
Information about your activity on this service (for instance, forms you submit, non-advertising content you look at) can be stored and combined with other information about you (such as your previous activity on this service or other websites or apps) or similar users. This is then used to build or improve a profile about you (which might for example include possible interests and personal aspects). Your profile can be used (also later) to present content that appears more relevant based on your possible interests, such as by adapting the order in which content is shown to you, so that it is even easier for you to find content that matches your interests.
Content presented to you on this service can be based on your content personalisation profiles, which can reflect your activity on this or other services (for instance, the forms you submit, content you look at), possible interests and personal aspects. This can for example be used to adapt the order in which content is shown to you, so that it is even easier for you to find (non-advertising) content that matches your interests.
Information regarding which advertising is presented to you and how you interact with it can be used to determine how well an advert has worked for you or other users and whether the goals of the advertising were reached. For instance, whether you saw an ad, whether you clicked on it, whether it led you to buy a product or visit a website, etc. This is very helpful to understand the relevance of advertising campaigns.
Information regarding which content is presented to you and how you interact with it can be used to determine whether the (non-advertising) content e.g. reached its intended audience and matched your interests. For instance, whether you read an article, watch a video, listen to a podcast or look at a product description, how long you spent on this service and the web pages you visit etc. This is very helpful to understand the relevance of (non-advertising) content that is shown to you.
Reports can be generated based on the combination of data sets (like user profiles, statistics, market research, analytics data) regarding your interactions and those of other users with advertising or (non-advertising) content to identify common characteristics (for instance, to determine which target audiences are more receptive to an ad campaign or to certain contents).
Information about your activity on this service, such as your interaction with ads or content, can be very helpful to improve products and services and to build new products and services based on user interactions, the type of audience, etc. This specific purpose does not include the development or improvement of user profiles and identifiers.
Content presented to you on this service can be based on limited data, such as the website or app you are using, your non-precise location, your device type, or which content you are (or have been) interacting with (for example, to limit the number of times a video or an article is presented to you).
With your acceptance, your precise location (within a radius of less than 500 metres) may be used in support of the purposes explained in this notice.
With your acceptance, certain characteristics specific to your device might be requested and used to distinguish it from other devices (such as the installed fonts or plugins, the resolution of your screen) in support of the purposes explained in this notice.
Your data can be used to monitor for and prevent unusual and possibly fraudulent activity (for example, regarding advertising, ad clicks by bots), and ensure systems and processes work properly and securely. It can also be used to correct any problems you, the publisher or the advertiser may encounter in the delivery of content and ads and in your interaction with them.
Certain information (like an IP address or device capabilities) is used to ensure the technical compatibility of the content or advertising, and to facilitate the transmission of the content or ad to your device.
Information about your activity on this service may be matched and combined with other information relating to you and originating from various sources (for instance your activity on a separate online service, your use of a loyalty card in-store, or your answers to a survey), in support of the purposes explained in this notice.
In support of the purposes explained in this notice, your device might be considered as likely linked to other devices that belong to you or your household (for instance because you are logged in to the same service on both your phone and your computer, or because you may use the same Internet connection on both devices).
Your device might be distinguished from other devices based on information it automatically sends when accessing the Internet (for instance, the IP address of your Internet connection or the type of browser you are using) in support of the purposes exposed in this notice.
The choices you make regarding the purposes and entities listed in this notice are saved and made available to those entities in the form of digital signals (such as a string of characters). This is necessary in order to enable both this service and those entities to respect such choices.
Non-TCF/GVL Vendors
have your say