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LAST UPDATE | 4 Jun 2024
THE LEADERS OF the UK’s two major political parties had their first televised debate of the general election campaign on ITV this evening and it proved to a be a more energetic affair than might have been expected.
Conservative leader and Prime Minister Rishi Sunak squared off against Labour leader Keir Starmer.
It was fairly tetchy between the two candidates throughout the debate as at different points each accused the other of talking “nonsense”.
When we returned after the halfway break, the candidates were asked to stop talking over each other.
Both men drew rounds of applause at different points, as well as some laughter from the audience in the ITV studio.
“The arsonists handed back the matches,” is how Starmer described the prospect of reelecting the Conservatives.
While Sunak said “you don’t know what you’d get” with Starmer and Labour.
“In uncertain times, we simply can’t afford an uncertain prime minister.”
Rishi Sunak’s defence of his national service plan for young people got a laugh out of the crowd, and not for any reason he’d like. Starmer called the idea a “teenage Dad’s Army”.
“All you can do is sneer at it,” said Sunak. “You don’t have big ideas like that.”
“If it’s such a brilliant idea, why has it taken you 14 years to come up with it?” asked Starmer.
“All you can do is talk about the past,” Sunak said multiple times during the hour-long debate.
“He’s ashamed of the last 14 years,” retorted Starmer. “All he can do is say please look at the future.”
As expected, immigration came up, particularly the subject of people crossing the English Channel in small boats.
Starmer called Sunak the “most liberal Prime Minister we’ve ever had on immigration”.
Sunak touted his Rwanda policy and asked Starmer what he would do with people who have arrived in the UK “illegally”.
“I’m going to put people on planes, what are you going to do?” he asked.
Starmer referred to the Rwanda deportation plan as a “gimmick” and said there has been “a pattern” of Sunak making promises – like reducing immigration numbers – and then breaking them.
The candidates were asked it they would withdraw from membership of the European Court of Human Rights.
Sunak said he will “choose security over a foreign court” while Starmer said he would not withdraw from international institutions and agreements.
Sunak has claimed that “20 European countries” have agreed with his Rwanda policy, which would see asylum seekers sent to Rwanda without the possibility of returning to the UK.
Starmer said he would be in favour of outsourcing asylum claims if it complies with international law.
Starmer said the situation in Gaza is “catastrophic and intolerable” and that a peaceful solution is what is needed, after being asked by an audience member about the UK taking a “leadership role” in international affairs.
Sunak thanked Starmer for joining him in saying Israel “has the right to defend itself”.
Strangely, Sunak touted UK troop involvement in the building of the now broken US-made pier in Gaza, which was supposed to help get more aid to starving people there.
On defence more broadly, Starmer said Sunak’s accusation that Labour won’t keep the UK as safe as the Conservatives is “shocking”.
Starmer said that while he was prosecuting terrorists for the UK government, Sunak was “betting against the UK economy” during the financial crisis.
Starmer kept saying “shocking” and “desperate” under his breath as Sunak spoke.
They were asked if they would have a “special relationship” with Donald Trump if he’s elected. Both men say yes.
Straight off the bat, the candidates were asked about the cost of living crisis that continues to affect the UK.
An audience member said she doesn’t think the two leaders understand the struggles of ordinary people.
Sunak said that progress is being made in this area but that Covid and the war in Ukraine had been factors in delayed economic recovery.
“If he thought the plan was working, he wouldn’t have called a general election,” Starmer said of Sunak’s claim that inflation is coming down and wages are going up.
@RishiSunak makes his opening statement during the first head-to-head debate of the General Election.
— ITV News (@itvnews) June 4, 2024
Watch live on ITV1, ITVX and on the @ITVNews website. #ITVDebatehttps://t.co/1jKrS2E5UV pic.twitter.com/s2homg2CPp
Sunak kept coming back to the Labour leader tax policy, which he said will will mean a £2,000 tax rise.
Starmer said Sunak is the “British expert” in tax rises and described the figure of £2,000 as “garbage”.
He says the PM has asked his own civil servants to cost “pretend Labour policies”, which he argues is the source of the £2,000 figure.
Sunak kept coming back to the refrain of “bold action”, clearly a phrase he had planned to lean on tonight. He was quite aggressive and persistent in asking Starmer about his tax policy.
Sir @Keir_Starmer makes his opening statement during the first head-to-head debate of the General Election.
— ITV News (@itvnews) June 4, 2024
Watch live on ITV1, ITVX, and the @ITVNews website. #ITVDebatehttps://t.co/1jKrS2E5UV pic.twitter.com/kJbOFVDTSz
There were groans from the audience when Sunak blamed long waiting lists in the National Health Service on industrial action.
Starmer said, “This is the guy who says he’s good at maths,” in reference to increases in waiting list numbers while Sunak said they had come down. This got a laugh from the audience.
Sunak did get a short round of applause when he said he supports the work of NHS staff.
Starmer seemed stumped by Sunak’s repeated questions about how he would deal with strikes and pay disputes with healthcare staff.
On education, Starmer drew applause for a pledge to remove tax benefits for private school.
Elsewhere on tax, Starmer also got a round of applause for saying that he would get rid of non-dom status, which essentially allows people to be resident in the UK without paying taxes there.
Rishi Sunak’s Conservative Party is currently trailing Keir Starmer’s Labour by 20 points in the polls and a recent projection from YouGov said that, as things stand, Labour looks set to win 422 of the 650 seats in parliament once voting concludes on 4 July.
To make matters worse for Sunak, who called this election early to the surprise of many, Nigel Farage kicked off his campaign today as leader of Reform UK, in a move that is expected to take even more votes away from the Tories.
While Farage was grabbing more headlines today in Clacton, where he had a milkshake thrown in his face, Sunak has spent the day off the campaign trail preparing for tonight’s debate.
Sunak’s campaign so far has been lacklustre to say the least. He even felt the need last week to remind Conservative MPs that campaigning was not optional, after one of his colleagues jetted off to Greece on holiday.
Starmer meanwhile has been touting his party’s credentials in the area of defence this week, posing with ten Labour candidates who have all served in the UK’s armed forces. This is consistent with the party’s tack to the right under his leadership and his aim of making Labour supporters unafraid to be “patriotic”.
The stories that have been following the Labour campaign over the last week, and indeed throughout Starter’s leadership, have revolved around what critics have called a “purge” of candidates on the left of the party.
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Many people could have their summer holidays ruined now. I hope not.
@Sean Money: A summer holiday is not an entitlement, you’d swear it was these days the way folks go on about them. I’ve had my share don’t get me wrong from 5* down. Waste of money mostly and tremendously polluting action to take that takes money out of our economy. I refuse to fly now and regret my additions to the environmental catastrophe that pollution brings about. The benefit is not worth the cost!
@Chutes: I’d say you’re great craic at the Christmas party.
@Chutes: No it isn’t and entitlement, most people work hard to save up and go on them. Especially hard on the back of the cost of living and being taxed as if there wasn’t just 20% inflation over a few years.
@Billy Hayes: Would depend on the crowd.
@Chutes: people save all year for a few nice days in the sun. If the pilots ruin this chasing the money shame on them.
@another one? what’s going on is the semi state sec: That doesn’t really address the point other than to question the worth of a holiday even more.
@Sean Money: People save all year for a ruined holiday, that’s nothing more than a bad investment. Life is tough!
@Chutes: people are entitled to use the flights they paid for and that AL marketed.
@Sean Money: here we go. Blaming the pilots. How about the company ingesting massive profits and not paying their workers fairly? Aer Lingus could stop any strike tomorrow. Solidarity with the pilots and I say that as someone whose holiday could be affected
@Sean Money: I’d argue shame on their management. There’s probably been alot of negotiations leading up to this point. These lads took a huge hit for the company during COVID. Things are booming again, huge profits, future growth and management are offering less than 10%…. I’ve been laughing at the lines they’re coming out with on the news interviews to try to push blame onto the pilots and try to get the public on their side. All IR games. Aerlingus management have got themselves to this point. Best of luck to the pilots!
@Sandra Molloy: That’s a reasonable argument ignoring the larger point but yes in theory then they should side with the pilots imo. Peoples pay needs to reflect the cost of living, companies and corporations make massive shareholder profits for the rich which goes largely untaxed at a fair rate convincing people like you that they work hard and therefor deserve a break. Fk the environment right, because ur worth it!
@Chutes: It is an entitlement. But an earned one. And what is wrong with that? Nothing. A simple summer holiday, lovely stuff. Maybe you should try a ‘holiday’ in North Korea. Re: the plane; it’s gonna take off anyways.
@Chutes: Yep… You do your bit for the environment and stay home while we fly away for two or more weeks living it up. The environment and the plane taking off are going to happen regardless. Ireland’s naive contribution affects not a jot the planets environment.
@Keth Tgi: Ah yes, the old ‘why bother’ chestnut. In my time I have ‘lived it up’ more than the average bear, it no longer excites. Some get sense as they age, some do not.
@Keth Tgi: “It is an entitlement. But an earned one.” Indeed, always earned on someone else’s back!
@Chutes: Trolling hard today Chutes!!! What’s the story with your avatar pic?!?! Were you/are you a pilot?
@another one? what’s going on is the semi state sec: Nah, aircraft mechanic, flight simulator nerd.
@another one? what’s going on is the semi state sec: These are my genuinely held beliefs. I’m not into bllsht in general, I don’t see it as constructive. I tend to break arguments down to their most basic truths as I see them. I ignore the rest. There’s a time and a place, it’s just not here imo.
@Chutes: “There’s a time and a place”?!?!…. Coming in all high and mighty saying holidays are not an entitlement when people are facing their hard earned holidays being cancelled isn’t really the time or the place, just so you can go on with an eco warrior stance….. You’re better than us holiday goers chutes, you care more about the planet, your views are gospel sage one, good man….. We get it….. You’re more into bllsht than you think!
@another one? what’s going on is the semi state sec: That’s the nature of disagreement, I judge your commentary, you judge mine.
Your judgement is flawed imo, mine flawed in yours.
What is the opposite of the ‘eco-warrior’ you adjudge me to be?
@M To The B: not paying their workers fairly, are you on drugs,check out how much the pilots earn and get back to me
@Chutes: please stay where you are like a good lad will ya ! You’d ruin anyone’s holiday God forbid if they were crammed in beside ya on a flight
@John McG: Enjoy ur hols!
Sounds like Air Lingus are trying to find a technicality to delay a strike rather than just sitting down and discussing in the hope of averting it altogether. I can’t see this move going down well with the union. I suspect once the ballot results are in that notice will be served nearly immediately. If it’s true that they haven’t had any pay increase in 5 years then I don’t think their ask is unreasonable given that most public sector employees have seen their wages rise by over 20% in the last 5 years albeit in smaller doses, but it’s the same result.
@Unridden Ana: yeah, at 98% for strike it’s a just delay tactic for the inevitable. I find it funny on the news their management stating that conducting a ballot during talks isn’t welcome….. Sure they’ve gotten to the point of balloting after being at the Labour courts…. I’d assume there has been plenty of talks to date on it going back many months if not years….. All a media game now. Fair play to the pilots!
@Unridden Ana: plenty of low to middle income earners both public and private sectors have NOT got 20% over 5yrs
AL pilots are just greedy feckers, most already earn €150k
@Brian Guilfoyle: Incorrect, Public sector have gotten a lot of increases since 2019, close to 20 percent under the current agreements! I’d say many private sector have too, you just don’t hear about it….. I wouldn’t fancy landing a 70 tonne aircraft in crap Irish weather and being responsible for hundreds of lives daily. High wages for a big job at the airport….. Nothing wrong with them trying to protect their wages during massive inflation while their company is very profitable and expanding. Greedy Aerlingus management in my view! (I’m not a pilot)
@Brian Guilfoyle: not correct. Look up CSO figures. The average wage increase since 2019 across all employees in Ireland is 24%. Aer lingus have given their pilots 0% in that timeframe. So what if they are already well paid? Does that mean they shouldn’t get the same wage increases as the average worker?
@Unridden Ana: As you yourself note, average doesn’t mean that everyone gets a raise. I wouldn’t go as far as to argue that everyone deserves a raise, but looking at increasing numbers of homeless *families*, there is something seriously wrong with the distribution of income and those raises.
I do also wonder if CSO statistics (you didn’t mention which report you’re quoting) include gig economy and agency workers which, among other things, can’t even take an industrial action lest they’d have their contracts summarily and unfortunately legally terminated.
Now, I don’t agree with Brian’s assertion of pilots being greedy for sake of asking for a raise on account of earning more than your local unemployed-but-working Deliveroo driver. I’d rather see Deliveroo drivers employed and with an effective right of taking industrial action than blaming those who have and are taking advantage of the right to withdraw work.
Yeah … I’m a leftie liberal who believes that withdrawing or threatening to withdraw work to bargain for better conditions is a right of every employee. Be it payed 10k or 100k. Now, if they’re stupid enough to sink the company they work for and ending up unemployed as a result, that’s on them. But commonly, if they’re treated as equal partners at the bargaining table, strikes rarely happen. It’s just that some owners of the means of production don’t seem to appreciate that those means also need staff. Marx wrote about it and last time I checked, pizzas and burgers aren’t being delivered by drones and planes are not flying themselves.
In all the media coverage on the radio, TV and online regarding this issue of pilots pay at Aer Lingus – I haven’t seen one piece of decent journalism as to how the current pilots pay at Aer Lingus compares to how pilots with other airlines like Ryanair or other European Airlines.
@Chaotic State: Their main competitors to the US out of Dublin: Delta, American and United are on about double what Aer Lingus are on.
@Chaotic State: I totally agree. Aer Lingus pilots are compairing themselves with the earnings of pilots in other European airlines, such as Air France, BA etc 5 years ago BA, (another AIG group member) gave it’s pilots a 24% payrise. They were already paid more than the Aer Lingus pilots before their pay rise. Now the AL pilots are paid substantialy less than their contemporaries in the other AIG airlines.
Most of the reporting has been focused on the very top earners within the pilot body, instead of the 85% of pilots who are not being paid competitively.
Aer Lingus often has to cancel flights it has sold because it doesn’t have enough pilots to operate them, and then complains that pilots don’t volunteer to work on their days off!
Increased profits, dividends and management “compensation” but increased pay for pilots only if they agree to “productivity” changes.
Then they look for 15 days notice to avoid having to pay compensation to passengers.
A right shower.
No better way to get bumped up a few incriment scales and more allowances than to threaten to down tools just before the busiest time of the year. Fair play to them. Can’t fly planes without them. Wish I had power like that in my job. Some of my Coworkers are too lazy to scratch themselves.
Aer Lingus changed their livery to an all white fuselage with green tail & logo to match their sister airlines Vueling, Iberia & Level. All 4 airlines have the same livery with different coloured tail sections. Switching an aircraft from 1 livery to another is cheaper & faster now if the need arises so one company could ‘lease’ aircraft from one to another if needed. Aer Lingus are also requesting 15 days notice instead of the agreed 7 if a vote in favour of a stike goes ahead. You can be sure Aer Lingus have a card up their sleeve – this could go wrong for the pilots. But I’m just spitballing – I could be wrong too.
@Billy Hayes: Around 100 daily departures from Dublin will be a tough one for their management to get around. Heard it’s all to do with offering refund as opposed to compensation to passengers with 2 weeks notice.
Did the pilots agree to terms of employment when accepting their jobs?
@Sun Rise: A bit like how the government agreed that USC was only temporary but then also changed their minds when it suited. That’s the way things go.
have your say