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LAST UPDATE | 24 Aug 2023
FIGHTING AGAINST THE odds – and their current positions in the polls – the Republicans trying to beat Donald Trump to win the party’s nomination for the 2024 presidential race faced each other down for the first time in the inaugural debate of this primary season.
The debate, hosted by Fox News, took place in Milwaukee, Wisconsin in the early hours of this morning Irish time (8pm-10pm local time) without Trump, who declined to participate.
The eight contenders who participated in the debate are:
Pointing to Trump’s wide lead in the polls ahead of the debate, CNN Chief National Correspondent John King described the other candidates’ chances as a “longer than long shot”.
He added, though, that a shake-up could still happen between now and the end of the primaries, particularly in light of Trump’s mounting legal battles.
The US’ political system is dominated by two parties – Democrats and Republicans. As each four-year presidential cycle draws to a close, the two parties nominate a candidate to represent them in the battle for the Oval Office.
The process of selecting those candidates is known as the ‘primaries’ – a months-long period of debates and campaigning that builds up to state-by-state decisions on who to back for the nomination.
The first heads to butt at the Fox News debate were Ramaswamy and Pence’s, who are polar opposites in terms of their experience – one with no political background, the other a White House veteran.
Ramaswamy sought to lean into his status as a political novice, claiming “it’s going to take an outsider” to fix, as he sees it, the problems with American society.
Pence took a jab at comments made previously by Ramaswamy that a president “can’t do everything”, emphasising the responsibilities that the role entails.
Ramaswamy, given the opportunity to respond, swerved the criticism and took the chance to raise his own policy proposals, quipping: “This isn’t that complicated, guys.” He then said he didn’t understand Pence’s point, who in turn offered, with a dash of smugness, to explain it to him.
“I was a House Conservative leader before it was cool,” Pence said. “Joe Biden has weakened the US at home and abroad. Now is not the time for on the job training.”
The moderators asked the candidates to raise their hands if they believed in human-caused climate change. Florida Governor Ron DeSantis quickly interjected, saying “we’re not schoolchildren, let’s have the debate”.
Ramaswamy jumped in next to wrongly claim: “The climate change agenda is a hoax.” He was met with a mix of cheers and boos, having previously only attracted applause for his remarks on the economy.
Chris Christie came in to respond to a suggestion by Ramaswamy that the other candidates on the stage had been “bought and paid for”. Christie said he had “had enough of a guy who sounds like ChatGPT” and called Ramaswamy the “same type of amateur” that Republicans saw Barack Obama as in the 2008 presidential race.
Amid the bickering, Nikki Haley took the opportunity to quote Margaret Thatcher, saying “this is why” the former British prime minister said that “if you want something said, ask a man. If you want something done, ask a woman.”
After a commercial break that gave the candidates their first pause 30 minutes into the debate, the moderators turned to abortion, which is expected to be one of the most prominent issues throughout this election.
Pence reiterated his call for a sweeping nationwide ban after 15 weeks, while other candidates, including Haley and Doug Burgum, indicated instead that the matter should be left to individual states to make decisions on, with Burgum saying that “what’s going to work in New York is never going to work in North Dakota and vice versa”.
It took an hour before the “elephant not in the room” was mentioned explicitly.
The candidates – who had to pledge that they would support the ultimate Republican nominee as a prerequisite to participating in tonight’s debate – were asked whether they would still back Trump if he was convicted of a crime.
Most of them indicated they would. Christie, however, said: “Someone’s got to stop normalising this conduct. Whether or not you believe that the criminal charges are right or wrong, the conduct is beneath the office of the President of the United States.”
Governor Asa Hutchinson stated: “I’m not going to support somebody who’s been convicted of a serious felony or is disqualified under our Constitution.”
Asked whether Pence made the correct decision in certifying the 2020 election results on 6 January 2021, Tim Scott said that he “absolutely” did.
DeSantis dodged the question, saying the election is not about “January 2021″ but “January 2025″, when the next president will be sworn in. Pushed on it, he said: “Mike did his duty. I have no beef with him.”
Haley said that it would be up to the public to determine whether Trump would be president but said that the US needs a “new generational Conservative leader”. She called Trump the “most disliked” politician in America and said that the Republican party “can’t win a general election that way”.
Turning to Ukraine, in one of the most heated discussions of the debate, the candidates were asked whether any of them would not support an increase in funding to Ukraine. Two took that line: DeSantis and Ramaswamy.
DeSantis insisted that he would “have Europe pull its weight”, while Ramaswamy said the US should “secure our own border instead of somebody else’s.”.
Taking a different stance, Christie spoke about a trip he made to Ukraine, describing the brutality carried out by the Russian army. “This is the Vladimir Putin who Donald Trump called brilliant and a genius,” Christie said.
Pence, addressing Ramaswamy, said that the US could both defend itself and the rest of the “free world”, accusing Ramaswamy of failing to understand Putin’s aims.
But Ramaswamy insisted: “Today, Ukraine is not a priority for the US… Protect this homeland.”
Haley described Ukraine as a “pro-American country invaded by a thug” and said that eleven European countries have given more to Ukraine on a pro-capita basis on the US. “A win for Russia is a win for China,” she said.
The debate returned to domestic questions on crime, drugs, and immigration, which saw the candidates try to articulate how they would come down hard on issues that Republican voters will be looking for action on.
On education, DeSantis blamed Covid-19 lockdowns for gaps in children’s knowledge and paraded his moves in Florida to eliminate “critical race theory” and so-called “gender ideology” from schools, decisions for which he has received significant criticism from human rights activists.
Ramaswamy argued that “part of the problem” with education standards is that the government “pays single women more not to have a man in the house than to have a man in the house” and that education “starts with the family”.
Both Scott and Christie criticised teachers’ unions, with Scott saying reforming education would need to “break the backs” of the unions.
The candidates were asked about the inclusion or exclusion of transgender people in sports, but they largely dodged it in their responses, circling back to education. Burgum focused on how education “differs by state”, while Haley emphasised the importance of “getting kids reading”. Elsewhere, though, several candidates made a point of mocking nontraditional understandings of gender, including Scott and Ramaswamy.
The final lightning-round of questions saw Pence asked whether presidents should have to pass a mental and physical test to hold the office.
Pence, tongue-in-cheek, said it “might be a good idea” for everyone in Washington DC to have to pass such a test, before saying: “No, the American people can make those judgements.” He added, though, that the US president should be neither too old – in a criticism of incumbent President Joe Biden – nor too young, getting in a final jab at 38-year-old Ramaswamy.
In a somewhat out-of-left field turn as the debate drew to a close, Christie was asked a question that started: “Do you believe that the recent spike in UFO encounters -”
“I get the UFO question?” Christie jumped in.
The full question ended up being whether, if he was president, would he “level with the American people” on “what the government knows” about UFOs.
“I think it’s horrible that just because I’m from New Jersey, you ask me about unidentified flying objects and martians. We’re different, but we’re not that different,” Christie said, before offering a more serious answer about the job of the president being “to level with people about everything”.
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I have four kids who live and one little girl who didn’t make it. It was the worst experience in my life and would break a relationship. I took a white coffin out the back door of holles street and as much as they were sympathetic it felt like nothing. We travelled with my little girl to glasnevin and I handed her into an open grave, it sticks to me this day. I have never really gotten over the trauma nor has my wife. We are lucky we have three healthy kids and my heart goes out to everyone that loses a child. Support Feaileacain
@orb7eckn: My deepest sympathies .. sorry have no other better words ..
@orb7eckn: Heat broken for your loss
@orb7eckn: Thank you for sharing your story a wonderful Lady and forever in my heart.
@orb7eckn: omg this is heartbreaking
@orb7eckn: So very sorry for your loss Joe. Condolences to yourself & your wife.
@orb7eckn: So sorry Joe. Heartfelt condolences to you and your family. My wife ( before I met her ) suffered the loss of her 10 day old Baby. She had a husband whom she was in the middle of divorcing. She told me she had a social worker and a language interpreter by her side who offered whatever comfort they could. The hospital staff and medics just wanted them out. I hope your family are doing well.
Savita Halappanavar …..
In all walks of life there good and bad. The problem now days is there to much box ticking and appearances the new nurses have no empathy or emotion or told not to then you have the others the only reason they choose health care was to get a visa so they have no interest at all added with overworked is what we see now.
@Be Lucky: As a patient in st James and st Vincent’s . Care was so bad,, couldn’t call it care , I felt like a criminal who didn’t deserve kindness .. nurses , it was rare to find one nice nurse .. if you cried or anyone saw you crying you got worse care .
I well.believe these horrible le stories I had the worst nightmare myself 23 years ago in the Rotunda hospital
@Karen Marten: I was so scared having my second child but it was the easiest birth out of 3 . 3hours from checking in to delivery was home 12 hours later .
3rd child in drogheda dirtiest hospital I’ve ever been in .
@Karen Marten: Same, but only 5 years ago.
I don’t think this is limited to birth, but is more widespread.
Maybe the problem is with how medical staff are selected.
There is a certain segment of the population that is psychopathic, or of similar psychological makeup.
People who lack empathy.
Yet the presence or absence of empathy is not a factor in who gets to become a medical professional.
Shouldn’t it be?
“… people giving birth …”?
@Athena: Yep!
We’re not discussing pigeons here.
@Jimmy Wallace: Yes, as it is part of the root cause of the problem.
@Athena: You mean the root cause of the problem is people in the medical profession who seem to lack empathy?
Is there anyone commenting here that shows that same lack of empathy, do you think?
@Jimmy Wallace: Of course it is a dreadful story but calling out the Journal when they publish woke nonsense is important too. People don’t have babies, women do. To ignore this nonsense is to allow it to become normalised.
Any wonder birth rates are falling with no proper health or housing
It was better in the times of “call the midwives ” my mother had some stories of the midwives calling when the younger kids came home from school they were told look what the mid wife brought a new brother /sister .
Even with paying private you aren’t guaranteed to have a private room. It’s bonkers. You spend 5 to 7000 and you aren’t even sure not to end up in an overcrowded public hospital room.
Doctors aren’t qualified, nurses have 0 empathy. If you can avoid giving birth here. Do.
@Alex: A lot of them were not qualified. My older brother was delivered by a trainee doctor in July 1973. Due to a lack of oxygen he suffered brain damage. He is 52 next month has the mental age of a 8 year old. God help him, he never stood a chance with the backwards system we had then.
@David Corrigan: that’s awful your poor mother and brother
@Karen Marten: It’s not simple Karen. My mother took great care of him until she passed away. Her attitude was that it was her problem. They were chased by the solicitors in the 70′s but they would have nothing to do with that. It’s not going to fix him is what they would say.
I reckon he would have been a solitcitor or something. A big strong man denied everything by a system not fit for the stone ages.
@David Corrigan: iys just awful the way women were and still are being treated so badly during childbirth . And then theres no support or services for children or parent .
@Karen Marten: We had A LOT of problems getting my brother care after my mother passed away. Escalated it to the highest ranks politically and in the HSE. Might as well be talking to a stone bloody wall. One HSE executive got angry at me because I emailed her. I told her to go and get a fecking real job and cut out her nonsense.
As far as I am concerned, the state put my brother into the condition he is in so they state will definitely provide a little support or whatever he needs.
Like you said, there’s no support for a lot of people. First world taxes for third world services.
I can’t actually fathom this is still ongoing. We had very good care.. apart from one nurse in her early 20s who decided that our 12 hour old little one should be woken up by rubbing an wet towel soaked in ice water on her back to shock her awake… If I had been less sleep deprived I’d probably have rammed the towel somewhere else.. but to see the horrors written above is painful to read.. it should be a wonderful memory not scarred by the traumas as described..
What a horrific read. Those poor women. I’ve only recently had experience of medical professionals not believing a patient crippled with neuralgia pain. Every single one of those women should be taking a Medical negligence claim against the HSE or a Human Rights action against the state for abuse.
I have to wonder how much of this horror is down to being understaffed and overloaded.
There should be enough staff of all levels in every hospital that they work the same kind of hours as everyone else.
There should also be enough facilities that nobody is on trolleys.
Exhausted overworked staff pretty much guarantees poor care and bad mistakes.
How do we get there from here?
We can’t start somewhere else.
@Steve O’Hara-Smith: I remember midwives chatting and laughing away at the workstation for most of the night 1 night after I’d had a section it wasn’t busy. I had to ring the bell for painkillers that were due as they weren’t giving them to me routinely and she was irritated when she came in, gave me the drugs and I asked when the next one was due. She told me the next one was due at 5 am and if I wanted it, to come out to the nurse’s station to get it I was still struggling with walking. They were definitely not rushed off their feet. This was holles street and it was rife with this culture so much treatment like this it was disgraceful. I was private too not that it should make a difference.
Stories like this make me even happier with my decision to not have children.
Absolutely despicable women are bring treated like this when they are at their most vulnerable point in their lives.
They deserve better!
Oh but we’re a ” rich advanced country ” so we should be happy
Private is the only way, no one wants to be around medical card riff raff
@John D Doe: typical snobbish remark. Who ever reared you must be so proud
@Joe Kelly: class is very important in life
@John D Doe: Even with private you are not guaranteed a private room. It’s one of their policy.
@John D Doe:
Yes, class is important, it’s a pity you have none.
@John D Doe: you could ne treated just as badly in Holles Street or any other private maternity hospital as you could be in a public one actually
@Regular John: as a members of the elite I find your comment amusing
@John D Doe: You claiming to be “elite” whilst unable to write a single sentence without multiple mistakes is amusing. You’re fooling nobody.
This sounds quite barbaric and I’m sure everyone can sympathise for all these women and their families however can I ask if an organisation like the Journal, which prides itself on factchecking, has checked the facts of all these experiences or to play Devils Advocate, if there may possibly be reasons for some of them.
I know when I was a small child and spent a considerable amount of time in hospital I found out it was a training hospital, I honestly thought every injection, every poke and prod was someone practicing on me. I hated them.
The facts are Ireland is one of the safest countries in which to give birth, clearly not one of the most pleasant, as your own statistics show a small, but significant, amount of women have a negative experience.
I suspect questioning this is any aspect will invite certain wrath but is it possible that in the hectic environment of a labour ward certain births become more difficult or confused than others and during these births ideal communication is not always possible. During these births the midwives and doctors present may be focused on delivering a healthy baby and ensuring the new mother is kept well too. This sounds quite barbaric and I’m sure everyone can sympathise for all these women and their families however can I ask if an organisation like the Journal, which prides itself on factchecking, has checked the facts of all these experiences or to play Devils Advocate, if there may possibly be reasons for some of them.
I know when I was a small child and spent a considerable amount of time in hospital I found out it was a training hospital, I honestly thought every injection, every poke and prod was someone practicing on me. I hated them.
The facts are Ireland is one of the safest countries in which to give birth, clearly not one of the most pleasant, as your own statistics show a small, but significant, amount of women have a negative experience.
I suspect questioning this is any aspect will invite certain wrath but is it possible that in the hectic environment of a labour ward certain births become more difficult or confused than others and during these births ideal communication is not always possible. During these births the midwives and doctors present may be focused on delivering a healthy baby and ensuring the new mother is kept well too.
@Boyne Shark: my story is one of them above and everything written was my own words. Yes midwives and doctors are there to ensure the safety and birth of a baby but mistakes happen and they did. But not being honest to a mother is not good enough. Yes giving birth is an unknown esp as a first timer but honesty is easier to deal with hiding information.
@Boyne Shark: I wouldn’t rule out a certain degree of exaggeration in some cases, in the hope of generous compensation. Let’s face it ,it happens.
@Caroline Walsh: I don’t doubt that you recounted your experience accurately and honestly and can only sympathise with you for what you went through. What I asked is if the Journal performed due diligence and checked if there may have been a genuine medical reason or mitigating circumstances that could explain your experience. If they haven’t carried out due diligence then, unfortunately, we will never know.
Terrible reading all this unnecessary suffering of women I could write a book on my very traumatic births which depend on sympathetic and caring doctors and nurse who listen to women .The culture in some hospitals mitigate against this happening and no-one is ever brought to account for mistreating patients .And nothing excuses these inhumane careless so called professionals
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