the only one that as far as i can see, says it as it is.

Who Meehall or Dearmud!

I never thought I would put this to print but our most accepted religious persuasions in the western world is crucial to our fundamental beliefs.
It is pivotal in deciding our future of right and wrong in so many aspects.
If the catholic faith falters in not just Ireland, it will leave a vacuume to be I never thought I would put this to print but our religious persuasions in the western world is crucial to our fundamental beliefs.
It is pivotal in deciding our future of right and wrong in so many aspects.
If the catholic faith falters in not just Ireland, it will leave a vacuume to be occupied by doctrines occupied by doctrines not acceptable to christianity.
Having said that… Catholic ethos needs to revamp as a matter of urgency.

I never thought I would put this to print but our religious persuasions in the western world is crucial to our fundamental beliefs.
It is pivotal in deciding our future of right and wrong in so many aspects.
If the catholic faith falters in not just Ireland, it will leave a vacuume to be occupied by doctrines not tolerable to christianity.
The catholic ethos urgently needs to revamp to combat this happening.
Apologies for earlier post. Cut and Copy problems.

What if catholic parents, who pay their taxes in order to fund the education of their children, want them to have a catholic education?? I think that’s in the constitution.

They may take care of things like communions and confirmations themselves outside of school hours. With religious education, as a suggestion, follow the broader educate together curriculum. As for the rest of their education I don’t believe that there is Catholic maths or Catholic geography!

@ Condulmer, that constitution is very much outdated when it comes to these matters

Another good reason to separate education from religion Condulmer! If catholic parents want a “catholic education”, then send them to church at weekends, sunday school or something similar, don’t expect that just because THEY pay taxes that the rest of the non catholic population should stump up the rest of the money to subsidise their cultish wants! If catholics want their children indoctrinated with their beliefs then let them pay for their own classes outside of normal education hours, we’ll soon see how many ‘catholics’ there are then when they have to pay for their religious fix. The state has no place in promoting or defending any religious belief system, it has no place favouring one sect over another and it certainly has no place in allowing a religion with a dubious and even dangerous reputation like that of the catholic church to be let anywhere young children without vetting and strict supervision. The catholic nuncio needs to understand that no matter how ‘scandalised’ the pope may be it’s the victims who have been the ones who were left hurting, the raped children, the beaten children and disabled people who were treated worse than farm animals and the humiliated mothers who were imprisoned for nothing more than giving birth outside of marriage in a country that had been turned into a laughing stock and theocratic backwater by over zealous and power hungry bishops and a state where the politicians and police force were servile to a Roman dictator instead of the people or country they were supposed to serve. Of course the Irish people went along with this for a long time, turned the blind eye and today we see the folly of that attitude. Ireland needs to take a secular stand on education, health and social policy and above all never again allow such a malignant organisation such as the catholic church have a say on how the country is run.

@Condulmer. If parents wish to indoctrinate their children in any faith it is their duty to pay for this. The state should remain neutral on issues of faith or religion.

@Joe+Ed: So who decides where the money goes? Do you call the shots or do I have a say in the matter?

Another useless election rant. I live in rural Ireland and have to get my baby baptized into that ugly cruel organisation so she can go to the local school

@Condulmer We need to separate church and state it is that simple, then it will not infringe upon your rights or mine. Get used to it your religion is not going to get it all its own way in this country anymore!

@Joe; My religion does not need or want ‘to get its own way’; as a citizen I have the right to live according to the religious principles I choose and the freedom to live my life according to them.

@ Condulmer.
I was baptised without consent to get into the local school. I was forced to say prayers, attend school masses, make my communion etc, and I’m not a catholic.
While I respect your right to choose, my freedom of religion has been denied from the time I was a small child. Even now the catholic church refuses me the right to be removed from their register and they still count me as Catholic. My taxes, like that other posters’ are paying towards compensation that, let’s face it, should be the Roman Catholic Churches responsibility (for at least 50%)

For this reason I would echo the previous sentiments, practice your religion and teach your kids about it all you like, just keep it out of the schools (unless it is taught as theology in general like educate together schools and the newer leaving cert religion curriculum)

We should have catholic schools for catholic children and stop the nonsense of watering down and compromising what we believe to accommodate a society that is rapidly heading for anarchy, violence and an ‘anything goes’ attitude without a moral or value being mentioned. We have young people being violently attacked weekend after weekend and suicide rates rising, marriages breaking down and family life being eroded, all in the name of secularism. We need to teach our children right from wrong and try and encourage a bit of discipline in them instead of having them going around living on their feelings and reacting no better than the uncivilised. We also need to give some recognition to the spiritual side of their lives and stop listening to the claptrap we hear regularly nowadays from people who know nothing more than anyone else but like to think they do. Remember faith in God only comes if you want it. The church is getting attacked like its founder was attacked and while we all know that child abuse took place and this was and always will be a shocking indictment of those involved, the church is made up of humanity which is subject to evil and wrongdoing etc. because wrongdoing was done at so many levels in the church, that does not change the message of Christ.

Sheelagh..
None of that makes sense. Correlation does not imply causation. Those without religious belief are as capable of moral behaviour as the catholic church, just as the catholic church is as capable of immoral behaviour as much as a non believer – the same goes for any religion by the way, I merely refer to catholic as this is relevant to the discussion here.

The rise in suicides could be more accurately blamed on other causes – including the widespread use of drugs which carry these side effects – and those are prescription drugs, taken for depression – see http://www.ssristories.com
It could also be attributed to bigotry, isolation and immoral behaviour by others.

Our media plays a large role in many of the other problems but it is not exclusively down to them.

Families have children that they abuse, this has been going in far longer than secularism, marriages have been breaking down longer than that.

You are preaching a slippery slope when there is no evidence to substantiate your claim.

Again, I would say to you. By allowing church interference with schools you deny people of their right to personal religious freedom, hey – indoctrinating your kids does too, but who am I to tell another how to raise their child if they do them no harm?
A school has no place in this indoctrination. A school is a place for education, and so what is so wrong with offering the children the option of choosing their own spiritual path based on impartial information about them all?
You may call it watering down, I call it self determination of their spiritual path, thus preserving their individual right to freedom of religious practice.

Sheelagh
As a parent it is my duty to teach my children right from wrong. If I feel I need help with that I can take them to your church or any other. No one expects you to water down or compromise on your personal beliefs, but if you wish to save us all from anarchy, violence and an ‘anything goes’ attitude without a moral or value being mentioned, then do so through your local church.
Suicides,marital break ups and the erosion of family life are all part of humanity and are things which the church has also been a cause of.
People are not turning away from the church because they want to embrace anarchy and violence but because the church is not seen to be carrying the message of Christ.

Hell yea If only priests could give as good a sermon. Amen to that.

me!

@coldumner The truth shall set you free……
from religion.

Pretty happy with my lot!!!

And rightly so Condulmer.
As am I entitled to live in a free and secular society where my children can be educated without religious influence and grow up without fear of judgement based upon the religious beliefs of others on their sexuality and how they want to live their lives; where religious texts are not presented for the taking of oaths in the deliverance of evidence in courts of law and laws are not enacted by our elected government to protect the reputations of clerical miscreants.
There is much talk today about the decline in Christianity and blame being levelled at ‘militant secularism’ for the marginalisation of religious belief. I am a secularist and I resent these accusations being made by for example Bishop Philip Boyce in Knock last August. Better that he spend some time like Archbishop Martin trying to right the wrongs of the religion he represents than attack secularism as the bete noire of his church. Better that he face up to the disgraceful record of his church in dealing with clerical paedophilia and it’s coverup than attack the secularist ideal for a respectful, tolerant and religiously neutral state.
I respect your religious beliefs Condulmar, please ask your friends to respect my secularism and not attack it as a smokescreen for their inactions and coverups.

There are some people who feel they need it and that is their right.

it’s best not to use bad language in public, dearie…eduction is so rarely evidenced, catholic or not.

I don’t think that calling another commenter whose views have as much right to be expressed as yours ‘dearie’ does anything for your credibility.

While you may not like bad language, it does not contravene guidelines for commenting here. However, patronising other users does.

I was just think of David Cameron a few months ago! I wish people here would just think a little more before they tirade. And of course I was not being intentionally insulting! I rarely if ever see religious people being insulting on this site….and I could wrong! I know I could be as horrid as anyone, but I choose not too.

You may “chose not too”, but bad grammar is considerably more offensive than bad language.

Err “choose”

:) looks sheepish…

As they say in the catholic education Latin “mea culpa”!

Says who?

Cyril, I’m not really into the ‘this world’ historic happenings because of so much doctoring of history and spin etc. I’m not particularly interested in what hitler or others did either in this context because they were human and just like all humans they are subject to delusion and evil and so many influences. Whether they were operating on catholic or Jewish or indeed atheistic influence is really beside the point. Christ didn’t preach any of the things listed by you like hanging pictures of revered people etc. these are personal likes or whatever of individuals and nowhere does it say you must do any of these things. There are excellent people of all religions and none and they do such things. The messengers mostly have left an awful lot to be desired but that does not change the message for Christians. I have no difficulty with people who profess other faiths and no faith. I find it unfair and unjust for people who don’t believe in God doing their level scientific best to push that view. We are not all into science and we don’t all believe that you have to prove everything and have evidence before we can accept it. There are different kinds of intelligence and it is a recognised fact that some people, even though they are very intelligent have no wisdom, some have no empathy with others and there are millions of shades between black and white – personality differences and abilities to understand and people who have a thing for science are not all things to all people and are very often a bit one track in their lives basing everything on scientific evidence. There are such things as intuition and other senses at work and I believe that no one can say for definite what is what but the have an obligation to be true to themselves. That is why respect for others and what they believe is of such importance. I wouldn’t base my belief or disbelief on what a some psychopath did in the past. There are lots of people today just as bad and they would if they got half a chance do another holocaust. Regarding Africa- I don’t blame religion for the plight of those in that part of the world but corrupt politicians and greed for power and deprivation of the people of an education which would help them out of their situation if they were given one.

Sheelagh I have no problem with people seeking consolation from any religion in so far as it doesn’t impinge on others. I have respect for those Christians who leave religion outside the scope of politics and education. People like Fr McVerry deserve respect even from Atheists like myself. He wants to help the poor etc. I respect him because he knows the boundaries of religion in civil society and came out against the Vatican embassy stating the Church should be about helping the poor. It is those religious who go on political crusades and those who drag it into education. That is a different situation entirely. Atheists would have no business criticising religion in Church but when religious preach things that are anti science in the public square in political offices in the Universities and the media then Atheists and frankly everyone who cares about rational civil society has a duty to protect the public space. You say intuition is equivalent to science. While I respect your right to your private case it simply is not true and is an extremely dangerous idea. All mind control regimes start by giving people a feel good factor. Objective reasoning can greatly manipulate the capacity of those who give subjective feelings the same weight. This is how non evidence based religious and political regimes take power.

Cyril the Churches understanding of “humility” is telling you exactly the same pompous bullshit in a more groveling tone.

Aetheists should be allowed to voice their opinions wherever they like but should they be allowed to use the kind of language they use like some of their descriptions of Christ, God and Christianity which is offensive to those who believe?

Sheelagh, of someone criticises the church, they arent criticising you personally. If they were making direct comments loaded with personal attacks then that is reason to be offended. It is also usually against the rules on most public forums – it usually ends up with the attacker being banned.

But really, as freedom of speech is not a qualified right, everyone is as entitled to their opinion as anyone else, and free to voice it if they choose.

If I were to turn this one around on you, a “Pagan” could say that they were offended by Christianity, as Jesus gave instructions for non believers to be burned, and indeed the Catholic Church have carried out these instructions in the past. Should that mean that you are not free to express your Christian views? Of course not. It’s up to the “Pagan” to choose to realise that their taking offence is something that they choose to do, and they just as easily choose not to take it personally.

That last bit made no sense..
It’s up to that pagan to realise that it is their choice to take offence, and that they could just as easily choose not to

My apologies for the gobbledygook..

Sheelagh, I despise your false god and your church. If that offends you, then tough. I have nothing against the average person who happens to be a Catholic, but then we have people like you who claim to be personally offended by church bashing. How does that offend you? Are you God? No you aren’t. So kindly stop talking shite. Thanks.

The House of Borgia pretty much sums it up for me

People who go on about our republic should remember most men who signed the proclamation were pretty committed catholics who wished to, (and quoting the 1916 Proclamation) “place the cause of the Irish Republic under the protection of the Most High God.” Republicanism does not automatically mean atheism.

I suppose the same ‘most high god’ was ok with them killing people too? Oh hang on a minute, was there not a commandment that these “committed catholics” were breaking in shooting people, not just British but many of them Irish people who were caught up. The Republic was founded for ALL people not just catholics although it never felt like that when I was growing up there, alas the unionists were right when they warned “home rule would lead to Rome rule” it did and it seems Condulmer that there are still people who wish it that way!

the Islamic Republic of Iran,the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan,Islamic Republic of Pakistan.We all know of how wonderful religious republics are.
Our constitution was sent to the Vatican after it was written to be approved, I think it is time to amend the constitution and have it written for the people by the people and exclude the supernatural bits and harry potter type spells and oaths.

@ Condulmer……so when you say “most men” that means that not ALL men were “pretty committed Catholics” and I wonder how “committed” they would be now if they knew the atrocities committed on the people of Ireland (not to mention elsewhere in the world) by the Catholic Church. The fact of the matter is they fought for Irish people and not the church. Also, it is worth pointing out that Jewish, Protestant, Islamic, and many others believe in God, not just Catholics.
In this day and age of multicultural societies, it is more important than ever to have a secular state, and leave religious education to the religious orders and the parents. Religion is a choice and a personal thing, between you and god or whatever you believe or in the case of Atheists, what you don’t believe.

it wast the catholic church that that sent up the system, as I am sure you are aware. It was other denominations that insisted on denominational education. The DES is delighted to have so many schools under the patronage of denominations; they get all the donkey of school management done for free. If you are on a parish school board; no expenses. If on a VEC board, you get well looked after. Religion is part and parcel of our history and culture, if nothing else ; we are not an SSR where it can be ignored.

Other denominations had no choice but to insist on denominational education because at that time because the alternative was an overtly Catholic education and not a secular one.

@conor: not exactly the case; the British set up the national school system in the 1830s to provide free education. anyone that wanted to could apply for a grant and a school would be sponsored. The COI, which was the Established Church until the 1860s pushed for denominational schools. The majority of the people were catholic so as it worked out in the denominational model so would be most of the schools. religious orders established in the previous decades filled the gap. its a quirk of history not a planned scheme, as far as i can make out.

I’m dealing with the period after this State was founded. What the British did and didn’t do in the colonial period is a matter for another discussion.

@conor: The system before the founding of the Free State and after were the same, and what we have now is an inheritance from that. Padraig Pearse had a lot to say about education; but apart from the Irish language coming to the fore, there was no over all change in education structure until the 1960s.

Indeed those two systems did remain largely the same. Successive governments have failed to deal with the structure of the system since the 1920s and have continued to support denominational teaching colleges.

I think Christian holidays should be handled as they are in Germany. You pay a tax to be a Christian and are entitled to Christian holidays. If you don’t pay, well then you don’t get the day off. Cant get much fairer than that but I think the atheists wouldn’t be to happy with that.

Yea that’s just great Diego the State acting as an administrator for the Churches. So you want extra holidays for Christians too? While you are at it why not go the whole hog and make slaves out of the infidels?

Diago you are totally wrong about religious holidays, you will find that the North of Germany is predominately “protestant” and the south is “catholic”. So the north get time off for protestant holidays and the south for catholic holidays it makes no difference what religion you have, your holidays is relevant to your geographical position and what state you happen to live in Germany nothing whatever to do with your confession or lack there of.
There is however a church tax and if you confess to being a catholic or protestant you will be required to pay for that “privilege”.

I was in Baden Wurtenburg (South) on a course and that’s how it was explained to us. Some of it must of gotten lost in translation but we were told if you don’t pay the tax, you don’t get the holiday.
What are you on about “extra holidays”? Are St. Patrick’s day and Easter not Christian holidays? If you what complete separation of religion and state then that’s exactly how it should be. And I would have no problem with it being so.

well Diego they lied to you, but that is not unusual. I lived in NRW for more than twenty years.

Diego it doesnt matter if these public holidays originated from Christianity. The days of the week originated from paganism. If you are telling me the religious deserve the State to grant them extra holidays even if they pay money to the Church. Im quite happy to eat Turkey and go on the lash at Christmas and not believe a cosmic Jewish zombie was born in a stable. That doesnt make me a hypocrite. If you wanted me to be a militant secularist I could argue Atheist want religiously neutral terms for public holidays such as winterville spring solstice which were stolen from paganism. But Im quite happy to leave Christmas and easter as they are because Im cool with the idea that our early ancestors didnt understand the world and clinged to these myths. I just get angry when the State endorses such notions in the 21st century.

And the numbers we count them with came from Hindu’s in India. What had that to do with anything? You obviously hate religion and like to mock people that believe in a god. So if you like to take advantage of these days off that does make you a hypocrite. Maybe you should use more neutral terms and on the 25th of December open Atheist presents if religion bothers you so much.

Diego It amazes me how well religious people can twist history. If you seriously think mid winter festivities originated from Christianity I will give you the same advice as Rick Santorum supports and go educate yourself. Christianity stole these festivities from pagan culture thousands of years older. Do I call you a hypocrite for not worshiping the sun. The fact that Atheists dont demand to have religiously neutral holidays is a concession on our part for the reasons I gave earlier. We have much bigger battles to fight than the names of public holidays. I have nothing against Halloween either but I dont believe in ghosts or demons. If Atheists appear blunt sometimes can you really blame us. Your argument is not intellectual it comes from the same bag of nonsense as the What about Stalin he was an Atheist argument.

At the end of the day its called CHRISTmas and at present is a Christian holiday. As far as I know nobody gets Halloween off, so its irrelevant. I just think if you’re that much against religion you wouldn’t do things like Christmas, Jews don’t. Also I don’t know where you’re coming from with the Stalin thing.

Actually Diego, it was called Candlemas before.. It’s the celebration of the return of the sun, as he was defeated for 3 days after the Winter Solstice (in more northern parts of Europe the sun does not rise at all for 3 days).
The red faced man dressed in red & white, flying around the world in one night in his reindeer sled shouting “Ho! Ho! Ho!”, the world tree, tinsel, distributing gifts [of the gods] and climbing down chimneys also originates in these northern climes and can be traced back to ancient Shamen and the Amanita Muscaria mushroom, which is in season at this time of year..

Easter is held at the first Sunday after the first full moon after the Spring Equinox, the rabbits and eggs are fertility symbols..

Beltane is also a pagan holiday, as is Lughnasadh – both bank holidays (May and August) the Litha (midsummer) bank holiday is given early – at the beginning of June.

Samhain is to do with the seasonal emergence of psylocybin mushrooms and the resultant percieved gap between the realm of the living and the dead.

Imbolg is celebrated as St Brigids day, and St Brigid was actually a pagan deity.

Mabon (vernal equinox) is the only spoke on the wheel of the year we don’t still celebrate as far as I know..

Cyril is correct, there’s nothing Christian about these festivals, as any hard line Christian would be only too happy to point out.

If Christians want to celebrate St. Patrick’s day, that is their right and you don’t have to bother if you don’t want to. I don’t expect you give any money to the church so don’t let that bother you either. Those who want a church will pay for it and have always done that, sometimes with their lives.

…And 50% of their donations?
THEN they might finally sit up and take notice of course!

It’s women keeping the church going even though it treats them like shite.

And it’s women that perpetuate the mumbo jumbo by lying to kids and teaching them prayers.

To my knowledge, the Church has not recognised, apologised nor has it compensated victims of clerical abuse.

You may or may not have seen the film ‘Deliver us from evil’, but in it is a clear illustration of a lack of all of the above. Two victims of such abuse went to the Vatican to deliver a letter, they were turned away at the gates by the Swiss Guard.

Any apologies have been insipid and lacking in their content. They also had to be grudgingly pulled from the church. Compensation has been inadequate leaving the church liable for €127m but the state at least ten times that amount.

Why should I, a 24 year old, non-Catholic taxpayer have any liability for the wrong-doings of an evil church machine?

In regard to compensation, they are now declaring that (a) local churches now have no ties to Rome financially, so that Rome is not caught with financial bills and (b) also rather than pay out to further victims, are declaring certain church areas as officially bankrupt – so they then escape having to pay-up to victims.

See: http://stupidevilbastard.com/2010/06/catholic-church-committing-bankruptcy-fraud-to-protect-assets-from-abuse-victims/

Nothing has changed except the PR tactics being updated.

@Tony you are speaking absolute rubbish.

You have to be trolling. Either that, or you are simply making shit up!

I agree 100% with Tony! Apologies have been made and now it’s time to harden up and move on. Seriously. We need the church NOW more than ever. Look at our wayward children and alcoholic adults (and teens) on a descent into darkness and ultimately into an inferno. Forgive, forget and move on. Sounds harsh, but true!

Yep! You tell ‘em Aoife. You tell all the raped and abused to just ‘deal’ and move on. You tell taxpayers, including non-Catholic ones that it’s okay that they have ten times the financial liability towards victims than the rapists in the church. You tell ‘em girl!

How about we harden up wayward parents and better inform them of their responsibilities as a parental role?
we should be doing that than fill heads about talk of an invisible man who its seems according to Rime masters, want you to give your earnings away to help support this invisible man theory and backed up by an ancient out of date book, created again by Rome for ancient historic reason and advantage!

How about we stop talking about inferno’s and darkness – and instead let actual real knowledge and truth be shown the light in the form of proper realistic education!

We don’t keep any church to inform and teach kids, we need humans with a bit more kop-on and ones that don’t spout rubbish about hellfire, brimstone and inferno’s!

Conor…..because if you knew an ounce of Irish history you would know that the state was too poor to manage social services and handed them to the churchs (catholic/protestant) today we hand hundreds of social workers… Not so when the state was founded… Pick up a history book. Its not to defend the evil abuse comment be 5% of relgious… Just to but it all in perspective.

Erm @ Simon, it’s difficult to figure what you are trying to get at or what your criticism of my above comments is. However, the church, which as you point out was responsible for much of the social services provided in the state. This means that they as the institution involved with abuse and covering it up are responsible for compensating abuse victims as well as the state which failed in its duty of care also.

It was agreed that the state and church would split the cost of compensating victims equally. However, the Catholic Church’s contribution was capped at €127 million while the state has to pick up the rest of the tab totalling over ten times that amount.

As a non-Catholic and as someone too young to have been in any way responsible whether directly or indirectly, it is wrong that I should have to pay for the abuses of a private institution when that institution will not pay its fair share!

The Catholic Church is a wealthy organisation with a vast property portfolio. It can well afford to cough up!

I’m not sure how to spell this. Please excuse me. Bollocks!.

In early 1949 I left Ireland having spent all my formative years in Industrial Schools. All I wanted to do was forget every thing that happened.
During the past two years I was diagnosed with cancer and went through major surgery. For the sake of my family I chose to confront my past and set about researching the reasons behind my incarceration. The results were both shocking and amazing. It transpired that I appeared as a two years old at Dublin DC in 1934 charged with ‘receiving alms’ and sentenced by a Judge Cussen to 14 years detention. I was then transferred to Killkenny to begin my punishment. At the same hearing a seven year old girl (a sister I never knew) was also charged and was sentenced to 9 years in an Industrial School in Dublin. At the age of ten I was transferred to Artane to complete my final six years. During the whole of that period I was totally unaware that I had any living relatives.
All information I’ve uncovered proves that I was not guilty of any offense and that lies and blackmail were used to retain me in State/Church custody.. The story is so outrageous that I decided to self publish it and it can be downloaded for as little as £2.50. I’m not interested in making any money out of it, but to tell the world the damage they did to a whole family. Thousands of children went through hell in the 1930-40s but through lack of education, shame and fear knowing that they would not be believed if they spoke out, they remained silent.
I was robbed of childhood and country and though I moved on, I’m now trying to come to terms with what I discovered.

Why wasn’t he elevated?

Ah of course he didn’t elevate Martin, the Pope can’t be having moderate, clear-thinking individuals like that undermining his work in turning as many people as possible against the Catholic Church. That would be sheer lunacy!

I hope the Catholic Church goes the way of the dinosaur. I can’t see any important let alone vital role it can play in society, unless you think keeping people in check with nonsensical superstition is an important and vital role. On the matter of Ratzinger elevating 22 Cardinals, word is that at the same time he elevated a mushroom field in Cavan to a class 3 relic. All very uplifting!

Shanti,
I do not believe in indoctrinating anyone but I do believe in educating children as whole beings and not just academics. We don’t educate our children in the other subjects by waiting and letting them decide. I believe in God and all that that entails and I don’t think I could deprive my children of the same. I would like to see Catholics having their own schools with a catholic ethos, paid for by the parents who wish this type of education for their children and would gladly pay my contribution. I believe if this were to happen we would have the begrudges whining and calling them ‘middle class’ etc as they do now with gaelscoileanna. The problem will never be sorted because those loudest in criticising the church don’t want any religion taught to anyone because they want everyone else to be like them so that they can feel better about themselves when the are exercising their freedom to do whatever they like.

Fair enough Sheelagh, so long as you pay for your children’s education privately and outside of the state system. However if your children remain inside state (taxpayer) funded education, then it is only fair that they learn about all religions in equal measure. The Constitution of this state guarantees religious freedom and the Catholic Church no longer has a special position in that document. As such religion has no place in state-sponsored education other than as a broader subject than “Catholic Studies”.

Sheelagh secular countries have the best examples of moral order in the world. Sweden, Denmark, Holland France etc have all outgrown the shackles of ancient superstition and emerged as beacons of how society should live. The Christian and other religious parts of the world eg the Bible belt etc Nigeria and other parts of Africa are morally and materially inferior to the secular world. America rose to a world super power status as a result of uniting its people by an entirely secular constitution. It has been in demise morally and intellectually since the 1960s when the evangelical movement grabbed hold and has been on the ascendance since then. A period of relative lawlessness always follows the collapse of any totalitarian regime which pre 1980s Ireland was ruled by zealots in Rome. This wasnt by use of arms it was purely by a very sinister psychological means to make society live in a delusional bubble. The child abuse scandal was merely the catalyst that started the downward curve of the mind control cycle. The mob then turns on what they once revered. It is textbook stuff a copy of the Arab Spring or the celebrations of the fall of saddam Hussein who the Iraqi regime.

Sheelagh I will do a preemptive strike on your next question. What about Hitler and Stalin they were Atheists. This is always the next question I get asked by Christian fundamentalists. Firstly while Hitlers persecution of his people he himself was not an Atheist. He regularly cited that he was doing gods work and mentioned antisemitic Catholic blood libel doctrine. He was a.believer in the super natural and the occult. I visited a Jewish grave site that was desecrated by the Nazis all but one grave of a senior rabbi who on the orders of Hitler was spared as he believed this dead rabbi had supernatural powers. The German nation that preceded the rise of the Nazis was predominantly Christian. The Catholic Church aided the rise of the Nazis as they did the Facist equivalent by signing the reichskonkordat and the treaty of rome. As for Stalin he was an Atheist but it was not Atheism that made him psychopathic in the same way as Robert Mugabe is Catholic but his religion is not the source of his sociopathy. Communism unlike Atheism requires the mythologising of living leaders in order to gain absolute control over the people. Stalin preached a Utopian society on earth religion preaches everlasting life. Atheism preaches a rejection of both. It preaches the necessity of critical thought and the rejection of uncritical worship of any human living or dead. It doesnt do rituals, it doesnt seek to censor speech, atheists dont hang pictures of revered people in their homes. The communist regimes is a secular copy and paste of the religious model of mind control the only difference being their gods were living people. The societies that were genuinely the most sceptical free thinkers escaped the worst of the 1930s fascist despot era. Sweden Denmark Holland etc. Sure Atheists being human can engage in evidence denial but this is in spite of being Atheist. Also the societies that preceded Stalin and the Bolsheviks was rotten to the core by rampant religious superstition. The Czars were heavily influenced by the church and especially the monk Rasputin,who claimed he could cure the czars daughter of Hemophilia. The failed society this created was used by the Bolshevik propaganda machine.

Sheelagh, We teach our children things like mathematics, English, Irish etc because they are, there’s nothing disputing them, you don’t learn addition and then decide “well I’d prefer 2+2=5″.

Religions are theoretical. The fact that there are so many shows this. Fact is, none of us knows for sure which one’s got it right, without having come back from the dead and actually met god – no one truly knows.
For this reason, and because faith is such an intensely personal phenomenon, do you not think it would be better for schools to avoid bias? By all means, present the options, but let the child (or perhaps teen) decide for themselves..
I went to a catholic school because it was the local school. I had to be baptised to get in (no one asked me about it), and had it drummed into me from an early age that the catholic god was the one and only.. It never sat right with me, so I rejected it. But I was still forced to attend masses and say prayers at school.

I would agree with you, if you wish to send your kids to a private catholic school, that’s your right. I merely argue that the main public schools in areas shouldn’t be religiously affiliated.
Let me put it to you like this, as a catholic – if the only school in your area was a Muslim, Jewish, Sufi, Hindu, Buddhist, Druid, (etc etc) school, would you be ok with sending your child there?

Was there really any need to launch an attack on Conor?
By all means attack what he has said, but you are making some massive assumptions for him there, and ascribing ideals that you cannot possibly know for sure are his.. And you do it repeatedly..

The only reason that anyone argues for separation of church and state is because the state is not made up solely of Catholics or indeed Christians. To have it included discriminates against every other spiritual practice as well as atheists.
The general consensus here (even from Conor) is if you wish to have your kids go to a catholic school that is your right, but it should be privately and not publicly funded. Why is that such a bad thing?

I’m not too sure how desiring the separation of church and state makes me a Unionist! Indeed, I would be just as unhappy to have the Anglican church or any church for that matter to be the state religion. I would not regard my views as especially extreme, I am not in any way advocating religious intolerance. As far as I am concerned, religion and spirituality are a private matter, a matter which the state has no place bring involved in.

I think that Shanti has explained why church and state should be separate entities in very clear and logical terms, so I shan’t go into further detail on the matter.