So, what your saying is he was a traitorous (deserted his own army) mercenary (went to fight for money). Why should he have gotten a pension? The gallows would have been a more appropriate reward for his treachery.

Andy, i dont think there are any gallows big enough for you and your chins!

If being a traitor of a transitory government that paid him nothing but peanuts meant survival for his wife and kids who he loves above any country then yes Andy, he was a glorious traitor of a rubbish system that drove him into poverty, a hero of a traitor who risked his life for his family and so people like me and you could enjoy our coffee in the mornings and bring up our families in peace. Without these heroic traitors we wouldn’t have what we do today. You are extremely ungrateful person so it seems. Would you be willing to swear allegiance to a flag and country and let your wife and kids die in poverty as well as watch the future generations waste away as a result of that transitory allegiance? I don’t think so. Survival instinct kicks in my friend.

Gosh Andy, you’re an absolute delight. You’re a brave man there demeaning a man’s dead relative from the comfort of your lovely neutral armchair. I gather you’re not speaking German? I gather you grew up safe from fascist regimes? You might even know some people from diverse ethnic backgrounds? Nice isn’t it? That’s the legacy your hated ‘deserters’ left you. Back under your bridge now, I’m sure there’s some goats to harass.

Andy, you’re an Assh@/e!!

Andy Duggan would piss his pants if a car backfired, and wouldnt be fit to clean the dirt of one of those mens boots!

Imagine what would happen if a citizen of any other country was to boast of something like this. I guess Ireland is not really a country.

Andy would have made a great General – signing orders for the execution of deserters whilst sipping port in the safety and comfort of a warm office 30 miles behind the front line….

Well said, Stephen.

Honestly I dont think they did it for the exictment or adventure. The last thing any sane man wants to do is join an army in war time.

Not true actually, most of the men signing up to join the British army in 1914 were doing it for the adventure. Back in those times you lived in your town or city and that was usually as far as you went. War provided you an opportunity to see new countries and get paid to do it. Plus in 1914 the war was promoted as “being over before Christmas” so men signed up for a quick visit to France or Germany.

Also you need to remember that there are a lot of jobs in the army that will keep you away from the fighting. Artillery crew, logistics, engineers and such keep armies moving forward and generally keep from the front. So you can see new places, get paid for it and not have to worry about getting shot at.

Yeah, the Germans might be running Europe!

Why? They would have done the same things the Brits were doing not 20 years before.

by using the word “Brits ” you are showing your true colours …..you have an agenda…….these are old men now……move on

I don’t see what there age has to do with the principle. And Brits is not a prerogative term, they use it themselves.

We all pick and choose our principles. And sometimes we prioritise them. Do we feed or family, or go parading around with hurleys to dissuade an invasion? Do we fight fascism on the front line, or from the safety of a soap box. Awkward things, principles.

“Go parading around with hurleys” eh? Speaking of true colours….

Sorry, here’s me parading my hyperbole forgetting my audience.

Seriously your grammer is shocking

Don’t be prerogative when you can’t spell grammer.

Andy Pandy your trolling always invites response though based on reading the rest of your sh!t stirring diatribe on here I feel no need. Other than to suggest you stick your blueshirt back on and go march with the Nazis.

They fought for money. Therefore they are mercenaries.

The soldiers who remained in the Irish army did not accept a wage. They were volunteers who enlisted for the love of their country and the uniform.

Ted, the national emergency was WW2! They went to fight in it thus defending ireland in the long run.

Declan- it was up to the Irish Government to decide where the Irish army could best defend Ireland, not individual soldiers. Britain had advanced plans to invade Ireland themselves in WW2 to close off their Western flank- so it’s hard to make the argument that these men were defending our country.

So did the Germans, Kevin.

Traitors. That’s all they are. Imagine if you deserted the US army while they were neutral? You swore an oath and to abandon it for financial gain makes you a mercenary.

Any why should they get a pension? By deserting they quit for a higher paid job.

This is top class trolling. Nice.

Andy WW2 was a different kettle of fish unfortunately Hitler was hell bent on world domination.

Sorry Colin, what part of my statement is irrational?

- No pension as they quit.
- Traitors as they betrayed an oath
- Fight for financial gain makes you a mercenary.
- Desert US army, you get shot

Which of these statements of fact do you disagree with? And which cannot be applied to this situation?

Who said irrational? But I’m all for on the one this, and on the other hand that. What you say is true in a complete vacuum about what was going on at the time. Other factors to take into account are things like: Europe was on the verge of being overrun by a genocidal maniac; the Irish army was completely unprepared for a foreign invasion from anyone and staying at your post would not have made a jot of difference to the outcome of such an invasion; do we really want people executed for desertion in this day and age. That sort of balance needs to be brought to the table. This was a period unlike any other before or since.

Spot on Colin C

Colin, you made the comment ‘like no time since’ …
Fact, the 1968 pogroms in the North of our little Island, saw the largest movement of people in Europe since WW2 (granted, there have been larger movements since).
Should the same approach be taken to those who fought against the regime that forced the mass evacuation of of the Nationalist refugees in 1968/1969?
And please dont mention the PIRA being the cause of the 1968 pogrom. They started their campaign in 1969.
I understand the logic some of you apply to granting the deserters full pardons and recognition.

Regarding the deserters. Hindsight really is perfect vision. But at the time, they were considered traitors to Ireland.
The same can be said of the PIRA, who were considered a necessary evil to fight the oppression being inflicted on the ‘Irish/Nationalist’ population living only 100kms north of Dublin.
The fact that SF today hold almost 38% of all the votes in the North of Ireland today speaks volumes about what the Nationalists thought of the IRA campaign against oppression. Unfortunately, due to Political expediency, our establishment party’s down here try to suggest that the Irish in the North prior to the PIRA starting up were having a great time. They never mention the refugee camps set up all around the border during the pogroms of 1968-1969. They have almost written it out of our history books.

Cathal
Which part of Colin’s “like no time before or since” didn’t you understand?
Or are you suggesting that the pogroms were worse than 1939-45 Europe??

Let me ask you Mattoid … did you suffer the pogroms?
When the ‘Deserters’ left to join the British army, they were not aware of the concentration camps. Like i said before in my comment, Hindsight is perfect vision. I am not detracting from the ‘Deserters’ in the part that they played in the fight against facism. Please don’t take it, that i am.
My point was that the pogroms in the North of our Island, lead to the conflict. Innocent people were being murdered and burned out of their homes. They were being denied jobs, normal civil rights, equal access to healthcare, schooling etc.
Given the environment that the people in the North were suffering, is it any wonder that the IRA restarted their campaign?
Yet today, people lambast the very members of the IRA, tar them all with the same brush, that stood up to an evil regime, that threatened the very lives of their families.
Like i said before, hindsight is perfect vision… and i also say that to forget ones history, is one sure way to ensure that the same mistakes are made again.
We must never allow someone like Hitler to emerge in Europe again, and like-wise, we must never allow a sectarian/racist regime to emerge on our Island ever again.
I hope you see the intent of my post.

True Cathal, but my point was that bad as they were, the pogroms were nowhere near the scale and intensity of the horrors of 39-45.
Colin’s point was that nothing since has ever come anywhere near, which surely you won’t deny.

Cathay, I mentioned nothing about the north. I don’t see what that has to do with anything.

Off the top of my head, I think several million ethnic Germans and ethnic Poles would be surprised to hear that “the largest movement of people in Europe since WW2″ was in Northern Ireland.

Mattoid,

The Khmer Rouge in Cambodia are estimated to have murdered more civilians than Hitler…. And the world stood idly by.
We have had mass genocidal programs in different parts of Africa and the world stood idly by.
We had purges in Russia under Stalin and other soviet leaders and the world stood idly by.
Some of these leaders made Hitler look like a teddy bear, with their ruthlessness.
I am not in any way dampening down on what Hitler did… I have been to Auswich, i saw the chambers, i saw the rooms filled with shoes (including new born slippers etc). So please dont even think i am playing his regime of terror down…
My point on it, is this …. Lest we forget, we have had varying degrees of mistreatment across the globe over the last 100 years.
The Nationalist people in the North were on the verge of being slaughtered. Our regime in the south stood idly by… Real heroes would have helped… some did, but they have been labelled as terrorists…. I always say that one mans freedom fighter is another mans terrorist.
The Irish Nationalists in the North were treated like sub-humans by their Unionist counterparts. Our Government did nothing (over 5 decades, they stood idly by). When we remember heroes, we must remember the men who fought to save the lives of our Nationalist Brethren in the North before total widespread murder and genocide took place.

And to put that into context, that not far off the number killed on day 1 of the Normandy landings’justbon the allied side, and it’s about 3% of the numbers killed at Stalingrad. Anyone who thinks that by staying in the Free State they were making any difference to the defence of the free state is deluded.

Wow, that would be really insightful if the figures you’re basing it on weren’t completely wrong

Go on Chuck, expand please?

It would have been interesting to see how long the Irish defence forces would have lasted if the British had decided to invade this island to protect their flank from the Nazis.

A highly unlikely possibility and our army was weak because it was antiquated; not because it lacked manpower

Correct Pete therefore these deserters knew exactly what they were doing had Britain invaded Ireland personally I would have preferred to be part of a British invading force then fighting them off standing in the middle of the Curragh with a Lee Enfield rifle and only a bush or a sheep for cover but I certainly would not expect a reward for desertion.

And you’d be right to assume so. But I get the impression from this article that those who deserted faced a wider retribution from Irish Society as a whole, which seems needlessly excessive. As such, I think they have earned their apology

Correct. The Germans were doing it privately. Which was much nicer of them. It was called Operation Green and they had the good manners unlike the Brits not to tell us about it.

Of course 20 years earlier Germany had been assisting Ireland in its War of Independence against a British occupying force- so who were our natural allies really?

Er, point of information, Germany surrendered before the War of Independence. But go on….

Point of information: banna strand.

That was before the WoI, censored. Seriously lads, if you’re going to be all huffy about history, at least try to google your facts before embarrassing yourselves with basic errors.

Colin,
I think you had better read some Irish history before making totally inaccurate comments … The Germans did send guns to Ireland during WW1. These are the same weapons the Irish used against the British during the war of Independence.

Cathay, the war of independence started in 1919. The First World War ended in 1918. A cursory look at a history book will confirm this for you. And per history books will also show that the Germans armed the UVF in 1912. So, lads, history not being your strong point, I suggest some late night revision before your next great theory that the Nazis were possible natural allies in 1939. Next….

I think WW2 people fought for more reasons than money. Hitler was a dangee to everyone. Ireland should have helped morem

Did you know any of them Steve?

What signals would they be then? That after nearly 70 years they can’t be forgiven?

Right they should have just stayed at home and let Hitler get on with it. I’m pretty sure anyone who owes their lives to these men would take a different view on what signals they were sending out.

70? Try 800 years

100% agree. They broke an oath. In the country they joined, their actions would have led to court Marshall and execution. Why not here….?

Paul, what are you talking about? Ireland’s hour of need? by fighting over there they protected ireland by it not being invaded later on.

Desertion under normal circumstances is to avoid conflict and reach safety, not leave safety and willingly walk into the worst conflict the world has ever seen. It’s called context.

Semantics. They deserted their country. That post would have been a dangerous one had we been invaded. Sorry to burst your bubble, but the British Empire was fighting to protect its interests … as were the Nazis.

Execution was not a mandatory sentence by WWII. Nor is it today

Needed for what? Messerschmidt fodder?

Paul, why did people in ireland not know what was going on in Europe? Because Devalera’s govt censored what was going on. Hitler invaded Poland in ’39, he then went on to invade nearly all of Europe. Are you saying that people in ireland were not aware of that?

Most people in Ireland thought that the turmoil in Europe was caused by massive snowball fights. I believe the full horrors began to leak here around 1973.

Steve
No it appears that Fine Gael and Labour have a sense of right from wrong and Dev’s treatment of these men was mean spirited and cruel. This also affected their families who suffered grievously because of that unfeeling and insensitive old fool.

Damien, these guys were already members of the Irish Army. They deserted. You seem to be confusing the issue with Irishmen joining the British army legally.