No that I’ve anything against free speech but we’ve enough crap to listen to from our own lot – Darren Scully and the like – without extreme right wing-nuts from Britain being given air play.
Free speech is fine before a discerning audience but racist spouting during economic depression can cause real harm and is an ideal environment for radicalism.

@John Just because you do not wish to listen to him doesn’t mean that he should be denied a right to air his views.

@John. Would you ever grow up!

I agree Gavin.
As I posted on a previous thread on this subject Nick Griffin can spout his obnioxious intolerance at the invitation of the Philosophical Society of TCD or the Political Society of UCC in the interest of social discourse or whatever but if he gets on a soapbox outside my gate I’ll set the dog on him.

Free speech and having a prestigious platform provided at societies expense are far from the same thing.
No one is questioning whether NG has the right to air his views, he does. He just does not, and neither does any else have the RIGHT to address a university debate. This should be reserved for people who are NOT damaging to society and have something worth listening to to say.

Does getting edited out of the evening news constitute an infraction on free speech?
If I applid for my own TV show and was denied, do I complain that RTÉ didn’t respect my freedom of speech? Of course not, that would be stupid.

And please remember that this event will be funded using money that comes out of studets contribution fees, including black, asian, LGBT and jewish students. Do you think they would be happy that their hard earned tuition fees are going towards paying this idiot’s travel and accommodation expenses?

Yeah John shut up! Pa doesn’t want you to have “free speech”! He just can’t wait to cheer Griffin on!!! Hmmm

William, you seem to forget that the corollary to free speech is the right to listen. If a UCC Society, of their own volition, wish to hear what Nick Griffin has to say then THEIR right to hear it should be respected.

When we start judging who should, what should and to whom free speech is to be delivered the principle itself has already been lost.

Pa doesn’t know how big a boy I am Reada.

@Reada. What a pathetic stupid response. I most definitely am not a supporter for of the BNP or any other extreme organisation be they left or right!! Let the man speak, debate himation the event and judge him on his responses be they truths, half truths or down right ridiculous. Just because you don’t agree with someone, Dont silence them….so much for free speech! Muppet…

@john and reada. If he was from Hammas or some other extreme anti western group would you be giving out about him speaking….thought not! Hypocrits!

Better clarify my last sentence was re UCC inviters.

Sorry Pa for my stupid response. Yours was just so clever…

I’d gag the Git Griffin. Sorry – must be the right wing fascist in this lefty looney.

I’m just surprised he wants to come to speak to paddies anyway seeing as how we’re definitely scum to him too. They must be paying him a packet! Notice Box g………s.

Sorry had to repost because of my bad language – last word. No more bad language allowed.

Another repost due to bad language…

Sorry Susan. I’ve learnt my lesson.

To tell you the truth Pa Laura Marie Purcell’s comment at the top is what I’d hope for.

It just makes me laugh to see how supportive some are to be willing to let a git like griffin have an audience and how fiercely they are willing to defend this racist’s right.

And then we wonder why we continue to bow our knees and allow s… to be heaped upon us. Did I say “laugh”? I should have said cry.

@reada, it was a stupid response as you assume that I am a BNP supporter for some reason. Couldn’t be further from the truth. Everyone has the right to speak matter how crazy their views are. You mightn’t agree…..well tough we live in a democracy. Go debate him if you feel so strongly about him being here, personally it doesn’t bother me if he comes here or not, I really don’t care…

I just wonder what the reaction was if he was invited to address a gathering of the ICA, The Mothers Union or the local branch of IFA rather than a grouping so convinced of the purity of their intellectualism that they believe that only they can impartial in relation to the crap that he spouts.
If a reprobate like him had his way the contents of the library of TCD would be burning on college green and intellectuals would be waiting at the train station.

How will that help the students that are going to protest to get laid in a house party after??

Do you think that NG is under ANY impression that he is not going to be defeated? The is no point whatsoever in engaging in debate with these guys, they are either completely stupid or brainwashed.
These guys come to universities, along with a large following to recruit and to maintain a presence with the aim to hurt and upset people based on their skin colour, this has nothing to do with politics or even freedom of speech.
What about UCC black students’ rights not to be discriminated against? This is EXACTLY what this childish society is doing. It is well known that the only time NG leaves the UK is to liase with and forge connections with other racist groups across europe.

Thanks so much PolSoc for strengthening Irelands far right racist groups by bringing their mentor to this country so that he can advise them. Thanks so much. Idiots.

I completely agree with you, Alan. When he finally did get to speak on BBCs question Time, he was exposed for the bigot and fool that he is.

Brian it`s not intelligent listening we have to worry about. Have you heard of David Copeland.

Addressing students from a state funded and highly prestigious platform is in not way a constitutionally protected right. If it is then when is it my turn to speak at a debate in UCC?

And do you really think that NG would get a shock if he had to explain his views? You actually think this?
Do you realise he spends his life doing these sorts of stunts and gets destroyed in debate on a regular basis?
He does this for attention to try and recruit people to far right racist groups like the BNP and for no other reason.

Your quiet right Brian,
Placard waving, chanting protesters play into the hands of the likes of Nick Griffin. He should be allowed speak, he should be listened to in an environment of dispassionate detachment where he is not provided a platform for the propagation or advancement of his cause.

But if the maturity of the protesters is in any way reflective of the maturity of the listeners then there’s a problem.

@William, you have the right to speak, go to the debate and stand up and ask a sensible and hard question that will embarrass him, rather than a question for the benefit of the people watching you. Which will only make him laugh.

He is doing stunts for his own reason, the people who are opposing this on a “No Platform” are doing it for their own reasons.

The left in Europe is too determined to be a micro grouping, valuing “radicalism” over achievement and change. It is a lifestyle choice.

John, I agree with you on the point about the unintelligent being swayed by such speech. I had to look up John Copeland and after reading about him I can see where you are coming from. The thing is that people like Copeland don’t need to go to a speech any more to hear a message of hate. They just log on to the Internet. Web sites exist, which I won’t mention, that disseminate hatred of all forms and ideas which before were not accessible to your average nutter. Maybe we should ban the Internet!

William, as Tim has said you have a right to speak at UCC, in fact when Griffin comes there is a question and answer session so you will get your chance to air your views. What you will not get is me and others jumping up, shouting you down and depriving you of that right! You see I listen to everyone’s point of view, analyse it and then rebut it if I feel that they that they are wrong. That is the whole point of adversarial debate. I might think that your views are a load of cobblers but you are entitled to air them.

You said previously that Griffin was ” a nazi who if he had his way would destroy the freedoms afforded to a significant sector of society.” and that the freedom to air ones views should be “reserved for people who are NOT damaging to society and have something worth listening to to say.” Well I believe that your point of view is damaging to society and that by restricting the right to speak in an open forum is a dangerous precedent that would ” destroy the freedoms afforded to a significant sector of society” Who are you to tell us what we should and shouldn’t listen to? Who are you to lecture the people on here as to what they should and shouldn’t see and hear? Do you think that we are all stupid and incapable of making up our own minds? For a moment there I thought that Putins FSB or Mugabes Zanu-PF had taken over the Journal. Those same people tell everyone else what to say, think and do, come to think of it so did Herr Gobbels and the brown-shirts. Funny how you call Griffin a Nazi, yet by trying to deny him the freedom to speak you are adopting the self same practises of oppressive regimes throughout history.

As for students tuition fees being spent on him coming here well I’m a student in UCC and I have no objection in him coming so that I can listen to what he says and hopefully challenge him. What I do have an objection to is the likes of you who will no doubt disrupt the event and deny me the right to MY freedom of speech. Will you be giving me a refund for my tuition money that will be wasted because of the disruption?

Take time to youtube his debates, honestly thick as a box of rocks.

Best comment by a mile.

It is a good one alright Réada, but what good would it do for the likes of William o’Brien or Burtenshaw or any of the other protesters there.

Bread and circus politics.

I’m backing out now Tim to leave them to defend this great friend of Ireland, sorry fiend. Roll out the red carpet. We still have it, don’t we?

Well put, Aisling

Tim
Dubious financial dealings have never got in the way of Irish politicians storming home at the polls – Haughy, Ahern, Lowery etc. The type of politician we elect does not reflect very well on the decernment of the electorate.

If you wanted to have an honest debate about free speech, don’t bring a fascist strawman in as one of your speakers.

Danny I agree that Griffin is a fascist, but should we not allow all people to have their say. He is wrong, both of us know that. But I would like to see why he believe that he has a right to say these things.

Why not invite a jihadi or dissident republican or a hardline communist then and try to get them to justify their views? His views, and those above, are offensive to the democratic structures of society that free speech is there to protect. Their justifications are all the same, full of the paranoid garbage that filled Anders Brevik’s journal. He certainly has the right to hold stupid views but the consequence of that should be that nobody, least of all pissant college liberals, save for his fellow idiots should take him seriously, but giving him a publicity and funding it with student money is taking the piss. Instead of standing up for his right to be a racist prick, we should be standing up for the people he and his cohorts offend and would harm if given half a chance.

Danny I agree with yo that we should ” invite a jihadi or dissident republican or a hardline communist” to debate their views. These people spout their ideals without rebuttal and influence others to their respective points of view. Only by challenging them in open debate can pressure be put on them to show up the inherent weaknesses in their flawed arguments. This can then be reported in the main stream media and their flawed ideologies can be shown for what they are. By denying them the freedom to speak and causing such a fuss about it the protesters are only HANDING publicity to Griffin and the like. If people just said leave him off, he’s a nut case and he wont long taken apart in a debate then no one would be bothered about him. Now they have taken on the air of the “forbidden” people and ideologies that will only make people curious and be drawn to their websites to see what all the fuss was about. I wouldn’t have known that he was going to speak in Ireland only for all the protests that wanted to stop him speaking! Talk about the protesters shooting themselves in the foot!

If NUIG want to adopt an attitude of sticking their head in the sand then that’s their business. If UCC are a bit more enlightened and willing to challenge hate speech and racism then I think that it’s a lot better than “see no evil, speak no evil, hear no evil”. In the face of extremism I’d much prefer to have someone standing up and facing it head on rather than someone sticking their head under their quilt, blocking their ears and hoping that it just go away.

“It’s time for white, middle-class students to stop playing publicity games with minority and migrant lives.”
TAF have repeatedly said that allowing people like Griffin to speak results in attacks on minorities in that area. Please back this up with any kind of fact. I didn’t see minorities and migrants being rounded up in DCU when he gave an interview on their student radio station. His speech at the Oxford Union did not give him any more legitimacy or his ideas any more credence. He will only be the latest in a long line of controversial speakers at universities.

A society debate, open only to members and invited guests is not a “prominent platform”. It is a debate where you can challenge ideas and opinions as well as having your own challenged. This is what we should encourage in a university. Give trinity students some credit, they are not all gullible fools who will suddenly become BNP fascists. A world where a self-selected few get to decide what is discussed in a university through threats of violence is abhorrent to me.

If you don’t like people like Nick Griffin being allowed to speak, please have the guts to say you don’t believe in freedom of speech. Stand up for what you believe in, no matter how unpopular it may sound.

Well said Charly.

Well said Charly.

People have to stand up for themselves and not let micro-side determine what people can think, or hear or say.

People like that believe that they have all the answers and it very quickly turn in to not needing to listen to the people, as they are just dumb plebs. Naturally it is all for the people’s own good.

That is why every socialist revolution goes off the tracks. The ego’s involved are absolutely incredible.

They need to grow up and realise that bringing racists into your school is simply not on.
These people use universities to recruit for the purpose of harassing and harming people who are non-white or gay. It is as appropriate as a convicted rapist being invited to talk on womens empowerment,
POlSoc need to stop being such attention seeking idiots and stop providing attentin to dangerous racists.

And to frame this as a free speech debate? How pathetic, there is a multitude of people far more suitable to speak on freedom of speech other than a nazi who if he had his way would destroy the freedoms afforded to a significant sector of society.
No platform for racists!
No pasaran!

William. College is about debate, furthering your experience on an intellectual level. PolSoc inviting Nick Griffin for a debate has no malice behind it. It says that there will be a debate, in my experience this usually means that there will be somebody speaking against Nick Griffin. Perhaps a lecturer from a Philosophy background.

I do not think that Nick Griffin is going to sway anybody of any intelligence to his way of thinking if he visits UCC. You are creating a dogma around this issue by saying that it is wrong because it is wrong. You are not willing to debate the fact why it is wrong.

I hope that this debate goes ahead so we can see why it is that Mr. Griffin has these ideas.

No Pasaran. Jesus Wept!

No Platform for Anarchists, whose indecision and lack of co-ordination handed power to Franco. No Platform for the SWP who have a minority view of Communism. No Platform for the Workers party or the Communists who are just Stalinist tankies and admirers of one of the worlds greatest killers. No platform for Maoists, who are named after the greatest killer the world has ever knows. No Platform for FF, who are thieves and traitors. No platform for FG who are the party of the elite who distort democracy. etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc.

The difference in reality between those protesting against him and Griffin are actually quiet small. Tomorrow’s professional class letting off some steam, they and we would all be a bit happier, if they took up swinging or something and focused their politics on economic change rather than do or die charges in to the boole lecture hall in Cork. Sandbags in the quad. Using the terminology of the Spanish Civil war, is just ego massage William.

Publicity paid for by student contribution fee paid by black, LGBT, asian and jewish students.
Nice one PolSoc.

Free speech for everyone as long as no-one can hear them?

Why invite him to speak? Why not let him come to Cork, book an appropriate venue, advertise it, charge people if he wants, and then he can spout his racist bile to his hearts content.

Where does it say that this is a recruitment drive for fascists? It does not say it anywhere. Comments such as that are simply scaremongering. How will he recruit people? I somehow doubt that he will be allowed to distribute material to the people that would “recruit” them.

Nobody needs to say it’s a recruitment drive for it to be one. Obviously the reason Griffin wants to speak at this is to spread his ideology, that’s why politicians in general go to debates and it’s the reason for most of Griffin’s trips out of England.

All I meant by recruitment drive was that whenever he’s provided with a mainstream platform it gives people the impression that his views are more mainstream (and therefore acceptable) than they are, lending legitimacy to any racist or fascist views people have and allowing his supporters to say that the rest of the world is “coming around”. All of this could ultimately lead to more racism and more racists in Ireland. That’s not scaremongering, it’s a simple and self-evident fact. I wasn’t suggesting there would be BNP membership forms handed out at the debate. Note that I said it was a recruitment drive for fascists and racists (not the BNP itself), which doesn’t require any material

What’s to analyse? He’s proven to be a hate mongering fascist .

I’m sure Griffin know exactly where “less discerning and analytical audiences” can be found but, maybe he has found them to be a bit more discerning and analytical than expected. Not inviting him to UCC isn’t stifling his views it is simply denying him free publicity

Shutting the door that was opened to him you mean?