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Dublin: 11 °C Thursday 20 June, 2013

Updated: Bruton suggests Ireland could vote again… then ‘retracts’ statement

The Jobs Minister said that Ireland could be asking for a second referendum if it voted no, but he later retracted that statement during a debate in Dublin this evening.

Image: Niall Carson/PA Wire/Press Association Images

Updated, 20.16

JOBS MINISTER RICHARD Bruton suggested that Ireland could seek to hold a second referendum if the country rejects the Fiscal Compact treaty on 31 May before later retracting that statement during a debate this evening.

Bruton was speaking during The Last Word referendum debate on Today FM this evening when he was asked what would Ireland tell its colleagues in the European Union if the treaty is rejected at the end of the month.

He suggested that if Ireland votes No it will leave the country on the edge of Europe, without access to funding and that it could then be forced to look for a second plebiscite.

I suppose we will have to say that we all need access to this and I think Ireland will be looking to say, ‘Can we vote again?’

However later in the debate, Bruton said he was “retracting” his statement and insisted that the government had made it clear there will not be a second vote if the country rejects the Fiscal Compact treaty first time around.

“There is no question of a second vote on this. I am retracting what I said,” he insisted. “There is nothing wrong with being honest.

“The government has made it clear that there will be no second vote and I just want to clarify that. This is a debate, we all make mistakes.”

Confusion

This evening, Bruton issued a statement acknowledging that his comments had caused confusion. “In the heat of a debate, I dealt badly with a question, and may unnecessarily have caused some confusion,” he said.

He said he had intended to say that in the case of a No vote, Ireland will “face serious questions about where we will access the funding we need to pay for public services, and I believe the Irish people will be looking to say – where will we get that funding?” Bruton added:

Let me be emphatic; there will be no second vote.

Sinn Féin’s Pearse Doherty later called Bruton’s comments “an outrage”. Doherty said: “Even though he retracted his comments, the mask has slipped and it is clear that the government is intent on bullying the people into accepting” the Treaty.

After the debate, Fine Gael director of elections Simon Coveney issued a statement which said that “under no circumstances will there be” a second vote on the Fiscal Treaty. He said: “This is a decision that the Irish people will make on May 31 and that decision will be final.”

- Additional reporting by Michael Freeman

LIVEBLOG: The Last Word’s Fiscal Compact debate

Translated: The Fiscal Compact rewritten in layman’s terms

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Comments (211 Comments)

  • What a load of crap were already at the edge

    Reply
    • He said that if we vote to not access the ESM, but if we do subsequently need to access it, we’d need to vote on that. No big deal. There’s no access to the ESM unless we ratify the treaty. It’s in the treaty preamble.

      Why, if Irish people vote no to accessing ESM funds, does the no side say we should ignore that vote and ask to access them anyway? I ask because that’s all they can say when asked how to fund the public services if we vote no.

      Answers please….?

      Reply
    • Darren where do we get the 11 billion we have to put into the ESM to fund from ??

      Reply
    • So hard to get a simple question answered around here!

      The 11bn will not be required from us if we’re still in a bailout and it’s only a worst case scenario – if all of the ESM needs to be drawn down. Even then, it’s payable over many years. It’s not a one-off payment.

      Where will it come from? Assuming our budgetary position is reasonably sound, it should be fundable from government income. If not, we borrow it on the open market as part of general borrowing,

      Now, want to answer my question?

      Reply
    • Aldo 17/05/12 #

      Darren, please provide a link where exactly it says: “The 11bn will not be required from us if we’re still in a bailout and it’s only a worst case scenario – if all of the ESM needs to be drawn down. Even then, it’s payable over many years. It’s not a one-off payment”

      Thanks.

      Reply
    • In other words Darren we borrow another 11 billion from to EU and then immediately give it back to them so that they will then allow us to borrow more money when we need another bail out. Pathetic.

      Reply
    • Eh, darren, we are in a bailout right now and will be paying the first half billion of the 11 billion into the ESM before the end of the year while we are still part of a program. So you are incorrect

      Reply
    • limofax 17/05/12 #

      I propose two extra votes and best of three wins.

      Reply
    • It’s O.K. Richard your a member of the Irish Government.

      You don’t have to tell the truth.

      Not another cent to the banks!!

      Reply
  • And the mask slips! He quickly re-adjusts it though.

    Reply
  • If we do have to vote again. I’ll be voting No

    Reply
  • I hope the Irish people realise now that this and previous governments hold the Irish people in contempt. The sheer arrogance of the government is unreal.

    Reply
    • @Ian
      That’s exactly the thought I had when I heard both Muppet # 1 be flippant on the situation in Greece with the feta cheese comment and Muppet # 2 says what he is actually thinking on ‘you’ll just have to vote until it’s yes’.

      They really don’t get the Irish psyche at all and that’s because they are so far removed from any problems a regular Irish person is facing today.

      I disgusted with them. We need a complete clear out and a new way of selecting and encouraging people to run for office.

      Everything is upside down. A man died on a trolley in A&E and we still find the cash to bail out private banking debts but not for that mans care. Disgusted!

      Reply
    • Add to that several cases of verbal diarrhoea

      Reply
  • B7584 17/05/12 #

    you couldnt make it up.

    Reply
    • alan 17/05/12 #

      i’d agree with you. but isn t this what they are doing all the time anyway?

      Reply
    • They are as they are going along !!!

      Reply
    • I was at the debate and the strongest voice on the ‘yes’ side was Michael Martin. If one believed in what he was saying he was good. He lost the ploy a little when Matt had to remind him that he was in charge of the debate and not to tell him what to do!!! Very funny. Richard Bruton spoke as if he had learnt off what he was saying and not a word of belief in it himself. Showed no passion in what he was saying. Very funny when he mentioned ‘voting twice’! He actually went red. I don’t think he actually believes in what he said, he was just very ill prepared for the debate.

      Really unusual to see M McDonald, Sin Fein, to be sitting beside a very very British politician! He spoke well, but I got the impression that he was there for UK not for the Irish. I know we’re the ones that have that democratic right to have the referendum but I feel he was there for his own gain. Like to hear his remarks if the ‘yes’ vote got in. Matt Cooper is the ‘Man’. Greatest chairman of debates. I asked him if he could get E Kenny to do a debate on his programme. Matt said ‘Last Word’ had asked him on numerous occasions and still refuses! This is not good enough. He allows his Ministers to look and sound like fools and he stands in the background squeaky clean, NOT! The fact that he is so arrogant about not doing a debate to argue his side, makes me feel more likely to vote ‘No’. It is disrespectful to the people of Ireland.

      Reply
  • They can hold 50 referenda, I’ll keep voting no!

    Reply
  • Of course there’ll be another referendum if we vote no. Anyone who thinks other wise is naive with a very short memory of all recent referenda surrounding Ireland’s involvement in the EU.

    Reply
  • who says ff fg lab are different same shit different toilet

    Reply
  • With Brutons admission , the anti Democracy mask is now firmly slipping now by the FF- FG – Lab. Alliance !
    Vote again and again until we get the Banker Senior Bondholders result !

    Fascism is alive and well in dear old Ireland .

    Hope our Electorate give him the appropriate NO result !

    Reply
  • Lol…….. it’ll be interesting how the foreign press report this. Jeez it’s becoming more and more embarassing to admit to being Irish. No wonder the global financial terrorists had easy pickings here……… go on paddy…… get up the yard boy.

    Reply
  • Jeez and he ran for leader of fine Gael !

    Reply
  • I’m not sure how the people will react to this.
    I’d like to believe they’ll vote no, after seeing over the past week especially the true face of FG, but then again I wonder if they’ll think, “Ah, if we have to vote twice if it’s a no the first time around, may as well cut to the chase!”

    I really do hope it’s not the latter…

    Reply
  • A Freudian slip from Bruton, it shows the contempt that FF/ FGLab have for democracy in this country, they will sell every one of their fellow citizens out to protect their obscene pay & pensions.
    I will take savage cuts if a NO vote means a fairer society in Ireland.

    Reply
  • vote yes for slavery! vote yes twice for to pay for slavery membership!

    Reply
  • so i have to vote no twice

    Reply
  • B7584 17/05/12 #

    seems all of FG are slipping up today.

    Reply
  • i think we should vote on it in september. vote no. see what the renegotiation looks like ???? no wait,,,that would make too much sense and we might not get a patt on the head from europe

    Reply
  • Why vote at all if the voice and will of the people is not respected and obeyed. Echo’s of Lisbon…

    Reply
    • Not to point out the obvious but more democratic votes are always more democratic and are always the will of the people at the time. There was a large Yes majority for Lisbon in the end. I have no idea where this odd idea came from that you can only vote once one something or it’s undemocratic. Makes no sense.

      Reply
    • Gary
      When the country goes to the pole the people make their voice heard. That’s it, end of. Then the government decide the outcome doesn’t work for them and force another vote upon the people and add a heavy dose of scaremongering. Only difference this time of the threats and scaremongering came right out of the starting gate.
      One man (woman) one vote. ONE

      Reply
    • Gary it’s a bit like playing a match and winning, but the opposition then get a replay and are allowed strenghten their squad before the replay.
      With referenda I don’t know why we don’t use a best of 3 system. Probably because the Gov would change it to best of 5 etc…..
      Anyway I’ve seen enough spoofing to keep me voting no for a while to come yet.

      Reply
    • Gary will we get to vote again & again if it’s a Yes first time?
      No, didn’t think so, when the government gets the result it wants it’s democracy, when it doesn’t, the people obviously didn’t understand what they were voting for.

      Reply
    • Mark there is *nothing* stopping everyone voting any government they like. For example, a government who would campaign to have another version of Lisbon put to the vote and then go out and look for a no. It’s goes both ways.
      Yes it is one (wo)man one vote but not also one referendum/election only. And as I said above I have no idea where people get this idea that democracy is only voting on something once. Perhaps I missed that definition of it. Do you have a dictionary link I should be looking up?

      Reply
    • Rommel. That is not the case. In a rerun of a referendum *both* sides can field a different or stronger squad. Don’t suppose anyone will show me the definition of democracy that says you can only vote once?

      Reply
    • Gary, you only vote once if the Govt. gets what it wants

      Reply
    • Caroline. As I said above we can vote for any government. So if this government doesn’t suit you then vote for a different one next time around. And if your views are in the minority well that’s democracy for you, majority rule.

      Reply
    • Gary
      Put it this way…if the YES vote prevails there is no way in hell there will be another vote. If the NO wins then more than likely there will be another vote. Now in your vast wisdom tell me where the democracy is in that???

      Reply
    • Mark I’ll try this once again. Those are *all* democratic votes. Even if a vote was run ten times, each one would be democratic and would be the will of the people at that moment. Don’t get me wrong I’m not actually suggesting they should keep running it. I *really* don’t get the problem though, if the government calls another vote you can take an half an hour out and vote again, any way you like. If public opinion has not changed there will be the same result. *But* if the public mood has changed the vote will change, and that is the will of the people at that time. Not seeing the problem.

      Reply
    • Gary, we’re discussing a referendum not an election which you know perfectly well, You are being obtuse because you are trying to defend the indefensible, your vote only counts if it’s what the establishment wants.
      Richard Bruton has made that clear today

      Reply
    • Caroline. I’m talking about any vote but mainly referenda. Sorry you don’t understand.

      Reply
    • Gary
      You’re really not getting this are you? The first vote is the voice of the people.

      Reply
    • It’s democracy Robert Mugabe style. The people must keep voting until they vote correctly

      Reply
    • I understand perfectly Gary,
      for someone who “does not care about FG ” you’re first on here to defend them every time, so you will defend the indefensible and twist your answers to skew the debate.
      Some day you will vote on something truly important to you and when your vote doesn’t count because it’s not what “Big G” wants you’ll cry foul.

      Reply
    • gary, I’ve seen you make some lame arguments around here but this one tops it.

      The idea that the will of the people being ignored is somehow democratic because you can try again holding more democratic referendums till you get the answer you want is patently ridiculous. Its like losing then replaying the world cup final until your team wins because you didn’t like the result the first time around, then claiming its all above board because the refereeing in the match that gave you the result you wanted was fair.

      lame, gary, lame

      Reply
    • Mark Power. *All* votes are the will of the people. I can’t see what’s difficult to understand here. The law says the government can call a vote when it likes, and they do. Vote for a government that supports your opinions, that;’s how it’s done.

      Trueleft. If the will of the people was ‘ignored’ they could just go out and vote the same way again. But they didn’t go out and vote the same way again, they went our and voted by a large majority Yes. You’re trying to say that all those people who changed their minds have no right. Really?

      hehehe sorry lads. You’re now trying to argue that democracy is only having *one* vote on something. Really? Will I wait for the dictionary definition of that?
      So the Greeks should no no right to vote again in this election, it’s basically the same one after all.

      Reply
    • Gary
      If the government respects the people then one vote is all it takes. You are truly deluded and seem to lack a basic understanding of government and democracy. Im bored with your feeble attempts to twist your idiotic opinions into pseudo-facts.

      Reply
    • Gary: ” You’re trying to say that all those people who changed their minds have no right. Really?”

      So, by your logic, if people change their minds after a ‘yes’ result they should also have the right to have the referendum run again for a ‘no’ result, if fairness and impartiality is be maintained

      Is that what you’re claiming gary?

      Reply
    • Mark the people can change their mind. If they really wanted to vote no they could have done so the second time too.

      Reply
    • Nevermind him lads he’s got he’s Stevie Wonder glasses on..and there a pic of a knee on his page with a smiley face so that says it all really..

      Reply
    • Sean
      If the yes vote won I’m pretty sure there would not be another referendum. To assume there would be is nieave. the government wants a yes. No way would they allow another vote and risk not getting why they want. You’re dillusional if you believe otherwise. Lisbon 2 was the governments idea. The first vote was not respected donut was run again under the guise of “we will better inform you this time” End of

      Reply
    • Gary

      Pedantic semantics!!

      Reply
    • Mark you still havent explained why the second vote was yes if the people still wanted a no.

      Reply
    • censored 17/05/12 #

      I don’t have a problem with multiple votes.

      Even if you look at Lisbon, what was on the table was changed significantly between vote 1 and vote 2. We still have a commissioner.

      If they’re still not making sense the second time around, we can always vote no again. No problem.

      Reply
    • Lads I’m not ‘claiming’ anything. I’m just simply stating the law as it stands. That the elected government of the day (the one we elect) can call a vote if and when they choose. You are the ones with this limited idea of how democracy works, yet I can’t fail to notice that you seem to be making this definition up as it suits you. I keep asking where does it say in a democracy that vote can only be run once? You keep saying it’s undemocratic but have no logic or facts to back that up. This is logic… a democratic vote is always the will of the people at that time.
      If you don’t like the system then I suggest that you actually remember how democracy works and go vote for someone that supports what you want and get them to change it.
      And you know what the worst part is many of you would be claiming the opposite if it suited you to get the vote you wanted.

      Reply
    • censored. That’s the thing isn’t it. If the people don’t like what they’re being asked they can vote no and if they don’t like being asked again they can vote no again. It’s pretty simple and terribly democratic.

      Reply
    • Wel its not democratic gray because its not fair and equal. A vote is held, govrmenmt win the vote, a second referendum is not held. Vote is held government lose, government vote again until they get the opposite answer.

      It is not democracy because only the people on a losing government side get a second chance. The people on a losing no’ side have no such seconh chance because the government eill run wih the result.

      See gary, the type of democratic process you approve. Government side always have the advantage. And if one side had an advantage so significant, the vote is never fair and equitable

      Reply
    • Truelft. I’ll try one more time to explain democracy to you. You *vote* for people that you feel best represent you. Then if those same people have convinced enough of the electorate they form a government and that government represents your views (or there abouts). Then they can call a vote on any agreement they like. If they can’t convince the electorate then you’ll just have to live with it, majority rules.

      And you know what I can’t help but notice he said something you want to hear and you believe it to be true. He retracted and apologised, and you believe that to be false. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

      Reply
    • Gary you keep “trying”and failing to explain because the rerunning of referenda to arrive at a predetermined outcome is not democracy.
      How rotten is this treaty when FG are contemplating subverting democracy to ratify it?

      Reply
    • Caroline. How the hell can they come to a “predetermined outcome” when the people vote on it each time. Do you not understand the difference? The people vote each time so the people get the democratic result they wanted. If the people change their minds then the people have changed their minds, end of.

      Reply
    • I don’t remember the people asking for a second referendum on Lisbon because they’d changed their minds!

      Reply
    • And yet they voted by a large majority Yes.

      Reply
    • After scare tactics,false promises and black propaganda!
      Much like the current yes campaign.
      And surprise surprise! we weren’t asked to vote again!

      Reply
  • R.B messed up. i couldnt believe my ears when he said it. a slip of the tounge ? it still shows you that it was at the front of he’s mind. just because he retracted it does’nt make it ok. ..if you called someone stupid and then said sorry i take it back will they be ok with that? i doubt it. this while process needs to be postponed until the currant unrest in europe with greece,france and germany is sorted out. why vote at all when the rules are currently changing ? by the way i will be voting no. i vote for the government to run the country, not for them to hand over power out of the peoples hands further into europe. im pro europe but it think its time to change direction on how we want to recover

    Reply
  • Why didn’t Bruton know his parties stance on a second vote before he started debating!!…if they don’t get the result they want one sure thing is that they will hold a second vote to get what they want and scare the people into it.

    Reply
  • Lying Bastards, always and forever.

    Reply
  • Vote yes!!! To make sure of another bailout to pay the salary and pensions of current and retired politicians and civil servants. Very important you Know!!! This country would just sink into the sea without them.
    I personally am still voting NO! The dictators can kiss my a*s.

    Reply
  • Still voting NO!

    Reply
  • First rule of any Parasite . “Do not kill your Host”

    Vote yes to keep borrowing in order to pay 100,000k + fat cat salaries and private professional investors who gambled and lost but whose debts are being paid for by the tax payers of Ireland through borrowing. Deal with the problem now. Not kick it down the road for our children to deal with.

    Reply
  • Between them all and their stupid comments including the top man, We are being governed by Bufoons.

    Reply
  • Well, we’ll see how it goes if the electorate votes ‘no’.

    Having tried to avoid giving the Irish people a votein the first place, and then colluding to blackmail us into voting the way that they want, I reckon that fine gael rejecting a ‘no’ vote and holding a second referendum should be the last straw for our nation.

    Reply
  • if a majority no vote wins then we will just vote no a second time round unless the treaty terms are renegotiated.

    Reply
  • The peasants will vote until they vote the way we want them to.

    Reply
  • ” There is nothing with being HONEST “. Now there is something new from an Irish politician being Honest any chance it might become the normal thing to do…

    Reply
  • Ireland, the only democracy where a no is not really a no. Do it again, scare the shit out if them. Don’t listen to the concerns of the electorate or, ya know, just give it to them straight.
    Insert Attenborough/Spock voice tone here, fascinating.

    Reply
  • Good man Bruton, a bit of pressure and you buckle. You’re the type of “hard man” we need to negotiate with the Troika, not! Adopting a soccer slant, when the fans are unhappy with the manager, a chant can be heard “You don’t know what you’re doing” Wouldn’t it be lovely to hear this around the environs of Dail Eireann? Pathetic

    Reply
  • All the more reason to vote no to get a better deal next time. It’s already going to be renegotiated anyway after what the French Finance Minister said today about France not ratifying what’s their now.

    Reply
  • Hilarious. We are little more than figments of a politicians imagination. The electorate exists once for a brief period every four years and for that moment in time we are foolish enough to believe we live in a democracy.

    Our politicians are a joke, not sure what that makes the electorate though.

    Reply
  • blah! 17/05/12 #

    I’m confused. Do I vote yes for, in the worst case scenario, according to the naysayers, years and years of austerity? Or do I vote no for, in the worst case scenario, according to the yes men, lots and lots of immediate austerity if (when more like) we require another bailout. Do I vote yes based on the wisdom of a political party who have broken a significant amount of their pre election promises? Or do I vote no based on the wisdom of another political party who vehemently oppose the austerity policies of our government, while at the same time they implement similar policies in another country? Do I vote yes for growth and security in Ireland? Or do I vote no for an Ireland that is growing and secure?

    Reply
    • dont be confused , just vote no :)

      Reply
    • You are thinking like a voter , and using reason to decide . I would advocate the No vote .
      Vote No.

      Reply
    • Its relatively simple. Vote Yes, get austerity. Vote No, get austerity. Why? The treaty isn’t about changing how we get out of this mess, nor does it change the bailout agreement we are bound by at the moment. Austerity, Investment (hopefully) and Growth will continue either way. That’s fact. The treaty is about re-enforcing existing financial rules, that even if we vote No will still be there. Its about allowing the EU Courts hand down fines if we breach the rules. That’s fact. It is about having access to the EU Bailout fund, the ESM. That’s it, Fact. That’s all the treaty does. If you are happy with that, Vote Yes.

      A No Vote leads to uncertainty, even the No side agree on that. Why? Well because we have no guarantee about other funding outside of the ESM, because the IMF are unlikely (coming from a former IMF director and a statement from the IMF themselves) to fund us and we don’t know how much we could get if they did or at what cost. The markets may or may not fund us, and is it stands, the cost of borrowing is rising. It has been confirmed that our credit rating will drop on a No vote, so the cost of borrowing from the markets will go up again. So two sources with a question mark over. As for our own financing ideas here at home, the proposals are raiding the Pension Reserve Fund (not enough money) and a Wealth Tax (not instant cash, no idea how much it will bring in and no idea when it would all come to fruit). So on that basis, the uncertainty will lead to a very unstable country with a risk that jobs and investment will slow down and taxes/cuts will increase as the government has to make the shortfall. The austerity is a certainty on a No vote, everything else is speculation but strong speculation.

      So its up to you – look at what each vote will do. Decide which you support. Its certainty (Yes) over uncertainty (No). If your unsure, don’t pick a side at random. Don’t not vote. Educate yourself through proper independent sources who are not biased. There are plenty of neutral guides and explanations. There are plenty of leading economists who have had their say. There are plenty of groups out there advocating a Yes vote more than there is a No vote, but you can look at their reasons and see whether you agree or not.

      Such groups are; Microsoft, Paypal, Ericsson, BT Ireland, HP, IBM, SAP, Fujitsu, IBEC, The Small Firms Association, Chamber of Commerce, The Irish Thoroughbred Breeders Association and Irish Thoroughbred Marketing, The Irish Business Sector, PharmaChemical Ireland, and ISME. Even big names in the GAA. They all expressed their view – have a look and let that help.

      I won’t tell you what way you should vote. You should be allowed make up your own mind without it being forced upon you.

      Reply
    • I would advocate a no vote blah. The ‘immediate austerity’ threat from the ‘yes’ side is a red herring beased no denial of access to the ESM, the blackmail clause they helped manufacture.

      Denying Ireland access will destabilise the Euro, which is the whole reason the fund is being set up. If europe does not extend the program we’ve obediently kept to and loan us more money that we are obediently repaying (a large chunk of which is covering their gambling losses for them), then a catastrophic default will occur and the whole house of cards will come down. Risk the €6 Trillio nn eurozone rather than extend a further 50 Billion to the country thats making its erpayments?

      What would you do?

      The threat is empty, the gun to our heads is not loaded.

      Reply
    • Too Trueleft; If Ireland rejecting the treaty was that much of a threat to Europe or the Eurzone, then every country would be required to ratify it. Ireland voting No will not damage the Eurozone or Europe, they will carry on without us. That much is clear. Look at Greece. On the brink, refusing to get behind the bailout, and look increasingly likely to default and Europe don’t seem to pushed.

      If there was such a risk then the No side wouldn’t be going to strengths to publish alternative spending outside of the EMS and they wouldn’t be trying to suggest that the likes of the IMF would bail us out.

      Reply
    • “Too Trueleft; If Ireland rejecting the treaty was that much of a threat to Europe or the Eurzone, then every country would be required to ratify it.”

      Could you explain this kevin, because we all know that the only reason every country ISN’T required to ratify it is because its not a proper EU treaty. This has been pointed out to you numerous times.

      Reply
    • BLAH – I suggest you google the following

      What caused the banking crisis in the eurozone / Greece/ Ireland
      Fiscal Compact Treaty
      ESM Treaty
      David McWilliams
      Constantin Gurdgiev
      Karl Whelan (the yes side are fond of him)
      Peter Mathews (they like him too

      When you have done all that you should have enough information to decide what way to vote for yourself. I’m voting No and will continue to do so. I would much rather 10 years of personal poverty than the selling out of our fiscal sovereignty (as stated by Mario Draghi head of ECB) to people and an institution that is above and beyond the law.

      There is a great programme on BBC 2 now called – “The Great Euro Crash”. If you arent watching now you should be able to catch it on BBC iPlayer.

      Reply
    • @Kevin. All the groups u mention receive state funding. This would dry up if we vote no. The horse racing body in Ireland got 71 million in funding in the same year that Mary Harney refused to pay the 10 million required to vaccinate girls against the cervical cancer vaccine. Imagine a country where a vaccine for cancer is available to give to young girls and the state say it’s too dear. We’d rather give 7 times that to the horse racing industry. And u know what they use it for? Prize money. I sh1t u not

      Reply
    • censored 17/05/12 #

      I work for a multinational. My employer is NOT advocating a yes vote, or a no vote.

      Please show us the press releases of these large companies who are campaigning in the referendum.

      Reply
    • censored 17/05/12 #

      I work for a multinational. My employer is NOT advocating a yes vote, or a no vote.

      The GAA issued a press release in relation to those managers, in order to clarify that they are campaigning in their personal capacity.

      Please show us the press releases of these large companies who are campaigning in the referendum.

      Reply
    • My son works for a large multinational and he says the same thing , They do not care about the referendum. Yes or No.

      Reply
  • Enda will have to get his whip out to old tricky Dickey

    Reply
  • He’s gonna be in trouble with Enda for this. Oh hang on…enda is too dumb to realise what Bruton has done

    Reply
  • Bruton’s sheer arrogance and shrug the shoulders, laugh it off attitude when retracting the statement he made is sickening.

    Reply
  • franco 17/05/12 #

    best laugh i have had all day ,talking about foot in mouth ..

    Reply
  • We won’t be denied access to the ESM even if we vote no. The blackmail clause will become redundant when the Treaty is renegotiated. Francois Hollande will be pleased with us for giving him the renegotiations he’s looking for, and will therefore side with us on ESM funding.

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  • B7584 17/05/12 #

    wheres deco cotter? this thread is lacking some personal insults.

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  • Best Gaff I’ve ever heard! The retraction was even funnier.

    Hey Journal – any word from the European People’s Party group meeting in Killarney?

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  • The trouble with voting no is that leaves the shower of twits in government to negotiate a better deal for us.
    Bruton’s stuff ups today prove these twits couldn’t negotiate a piss up in a brewery

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  • What’s leading us , and where?

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  • Of course we can vote again. We can vote twenty times if we want. It’s our constitution.

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    • It won’t be if this amendment is inserted. I quote:
      “no provision of this Constitution … prevents laws enacted by bodies competent under the Treaty from having force of law in the State”

      That “No provision”.

      The entire amendment is repugnant as it overrides every single other provision in our constitution by ceding superiority to “bodies competent under that Treaty”.

      The amendment itself violates article 15.4.1 which forbids the house from passing legislation which is repugnant to the constitution or any provision thereof

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    • Scrap Croke Park. We can vote something into the constitution and we can vote it out. Also we’re only giving permission in the constitution to ratify the tray, not actually adding the treaty to it.

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    • But that bit can be removed by a referendum at any time too

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    • Your not adding the treaty to it. Your saying that no provision of the constitution can prevent bodies competent enacting laws that have force of law in the state. There’s no need to enshrine the treaty itself in the constitution if we’re making bodies competent under the treaty effectively ABOVE the law.

      Granted, it’s technically not “above” the law but anything they say goes. Doesn’t matter what the constitution says.

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    • @Sean beag. As of today you are correct. Article 46 deals with amendments to the constitution and the whole pomp and pageantry surrounding amendments. But we pass this amendment then bodies competent can pass a new law saying “we will decide if Ireland can vote on it’s constitution, not article 46″. Scary but true

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    • Gary – I accidentally green thumbed you :O(, sorry about that everyone.

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    • Scrap Croke Park. That is absolute nonsense. I can get an expert in to tell you in detail if like?

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    • censored 18/05/12 #

      I green thumbed Gary for adopting the “Scrap Croke Park” mantra :D

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    • censored. I’d very much like to see the croke park deal scrapped. You can thumb this up too :)

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    • censored 18/05/12 #

      Done!

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  • Well I guess that’s what happens when a teacher who has never had to wonder where the next pay cheque is coming from runs the country. Apathy trickles from the top down. No disrespect to teachers by the way. But having worked in business all my life I could not just swan into the Minister for Educations position and pretend to know what I am doing or for that matter teach a class of 14 year olds having never prepared for it, or even had training or experience. We need leaders who are hungry for a resolution to this crisis not the “it”ll be grand” serial public sector leeches brigade.

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  • I wonder did he ask Enda for a re run of the Fine Gael leadership contest because he didn’t like the result?

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  • My God. I was voting a definitive YES to this whole question. But after hearing such an arrogant man who does not believe in democracy ?? .. I have completely turned my opinion around. I am voting NO. I am done with this whole useless shower of politicians. Irrational, I admit, but damn I am angry with this horror that is Bruton.

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  • Off topic I know – but thanks to the IT lads in the Journal for fixing the glitch ;o)

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  • Where’s David Higgins??!!! Probably at YFG Bootcamp watching The Triumph of The Will

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  • The way I see it regarding this entire shit storm is….. It is up to us- The Irish People to become more pro-active and get up of our arses and do something about this mess instead of ‘bar stool’ opinions and discussions. Iceland was in an awful mess not so long ago….. When the people learned of what happened they literally broke down the doors of parliament and overthrew the government! Granted they have their own currency which helped hugely but they are now through the worst of it and can see the light at the end of the tunnel. While we and the rest of Europe stall, talk more shite and the end product will be the collapse of the euro!
    So if you vote NO or YES wont make a balls bit of difference- we will still have the same government-same spin offs- more hard times and no solutions! The only way to sort this shit out is ourselves!! :D

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  • John ‘vote no to austerity’ does not mean austerity will end on June 1st, it sends out a signal alongside the changing direction of other european nations and external countries that austerity has not worked and that we demand a change in direction. The stimulus money is there and germany have a choice between preserving their own countries AAA rating and bringing in eurobonds, they think they’re saving the euro but when it collapses german esports will collapse alongside them. Germany and the ECB won’t let that happen.

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    • Germany are more likely to bring in eurobonds if countries sign up to tighter fiscal controls and this is why there is no access to ESM funds for countries that don’t ratify the treaty. I’m for a stimulus package once it is aimed at sustainable jobs and not money that gets lost into a black hole (our current set up )

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  • Jerry 17/05/12 #

    Europe could not care less what we do , people seem to think our vote regardless which way it goes will make a difference . Not a chance fuc?ed either way no money cupboard is bare folks sooner we realise this the better

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  • Too inconvenient to sack Bruton now unfortunately. Hopeless minister. Swallows all the waffle from IBEC wholesale. Will be gone in the autumn.

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    • No he wont be gone. As enterprise minister he’s overseeing the greatest influx of FDI and multinational jobs since the crisis began.

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    • They’ll ALL be gone next election David me old son!! Your time at the top has peaked and will soon be over. Once a no vote has been passed it will be time for a general election!!! Burton shmurton……. And to reiterate my point about Edna not debating the treaty……well burton is a prime example…..Edna would spill the beans faster than markel in a drag show!

      Lies all lies from Fine Geal nothing more

      Vote no! Thank you!

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    • censored 17/05/12 #

      Nothing to do with Bruton or FG.

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  • Still waiting for someone from the no side to answer DIRECTLY how a no vote = an end to austerity
    They say vote no to austerity, but no one says how a no vote equals an end to austerity. No nonsense about a change in policy because regardless of your policy you can’t spend what you havn’t got.

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    • Iceland

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    • censored 17/05/12 #

      (Big sigh) You’ll still waiting because nobody is actually saying that.

      Now, please explain how a yes vote is going to result in magically solving all our problems. Specifically address the points raised by Krugman and others in calling this “economic suicide” for Europe.

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    • I’m not going to react :)

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    • You see dodge the question, nobody on the yes side is saying it is an answer to all our problems.
      But the no side say VOTE NO TO AUSTERITY, if it was explained logically I would vote no, as i’m sure would everyone else, but in fact it is more populist sound bites

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    • It could reduce austerity because we can renegotiate the terms of our bailout as part of the Treaty renegotiations that Hollande wants.

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    • censored 17/05/12 #

      Here’s a direct answer then: a no vote will force policy changes that will eventually result in an end to austerity.

      A yes vote is a mandate to continue the same policy of economic suicide.

      I’m not going to bother explaining all the details because it’s readily accessible both on the journal and elsewhere.

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    • censored 17/05/12 #

      We raise 39 billion in taxes. There’s roughly a 14 billion euro deficit right now.

      We are borrowing money to fund this deficit, and also to pay back the bank debt.

      From a standing start, we’re now paying 7.5 billion a year in interest.

      This is not the right time in the economic cycle to introduce constraints on how we get out of the crisis. We should have done this during the boom, but as many have pointed out, it would have made no difference.

      I want Merkel and co to go back to the drawing board and come up with a better solution for all of Europe.

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    • not going to bother = can’t

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    • @censored: Could you please clarify what you mean by eventually?

      Have no real feeling on the treaty as still doing my own due diligence however…the sun Will EVENTUALLY burn itself out.

      Is that the type of eventually we are talking about? If so I am sure a yes vote supporter could make the same fuzzy assertion

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    • Change any policy you want, there is still only the same amount of money,
      the fiscal treaty is about having a tighter control on spending, if we reject tighter controls on our spending while up to our neck in debt (rightly or Wrongly) what is that saying ????????

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    • John Johnson
      Nobody to my knowledge has ever said that the no vote will avoid or bring austerity to an end , If you think they have said this then you are mistaken.

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    • censored 18/05/12 #

      Eventually means within my lifetime.

      I don’t think the “yes side” can claim that.

      Of course we should be balancing our books and not spending too much on the wrong stuff. However, we are still doing that. Spending controls are meaningless if we can’t get our act together.

      So far we’ve cut education, health and capital projects that would have given us improved infrastructure while keeping some people at work – all to protect the pay and pensions of a cossetted elite. Meanwhile, our partners in Europe are bribing our Government/public sector with “bailout” money – in return for not renegotiating the bank debt.

      Do you not see the contradiction in: “we need to sign up to spending controls, so that we can borrow more money in a second bailout”.

      Join the dots, this is not about being sensible and implementing spending controls.

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    • A yes vote = more bank bailouts = longer and tougher austerity

      A no vote will let the banks sink, thin out the public service and save the taxpayer a fortune in the long term

      But this is what they’re not telling us

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  • Well,my vote is NO and will be No again.Get the message.Every worker deseves a fair wage.

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  • Sinn Fein expressing outrage just makes me squirm. They blatantly tried to mislead the public with their quotes from leading economists. There was not a dickie-bird from them when O’Snodaigh insulted our intelligence by saying he needed €50k worth of cartridges to print literature for his constituents. I would like to give Sinn Fein credit for what they have done in the north and our our own local Sinn Fein councillor John Brady is dedicated and hard working but when I hear their top brass talking crap and taking the high moral ground I really cannot take them seriously. Sorry lads, but grow up.

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    • Here here.

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    • dermot, a little girl collapsed in a school in cork from hunger while a labour/fg t.d(they’re one now..) sat and ate caviar and has made a request for it to be put on the menu for leinster house permanently. govt t.ds spent 50,000 on wine while families wept at the loss of their homes. phil hogan employed two shady characters at leinster house in the last week while thousands of decent people are without work. now that’s the type of stuff that should make you cringe, especially when you berate someone for using ink to inform, reply to and basically work for the people who elected him. i think you need to do a bit of soul searching and a whole lot of growing up.

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    • and no doubt Mairead you have some proof for any of that?

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    • censored 17/05/12 #

      In fairness, the quote from the leading economists was accurate as far as the economic bit goes.

      They did (incorrectly IMO) leave out the bit where the economists tried to weasel out of it, by saying that on economic grounds the treaty does not make sense – but “on balance” we should vote yes.

      If you want to be charitable, you could argue they were preserving their blushes!

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    • Gary
      here is the news article on the little child fainting from hunger !!
      http://www.campaignforchildren.ie/updates/inthenews/2012/05/15/undernourished-child-collapses/

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    • censored. That is utterly dishonest and you know it. I’ll put money that you’d be screaming about it if the government did something similar. The same rules should apply to everyone.

      Susie. I have family members who have had to go on the dole due to the recession and I can assure you not one of them is starving. Some mortgages are not being paid but no one is starving. It’s a terrible case but I’d have to wonder about their home situation.

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    • Well , we can all wonder what we like but as it involves a child , there will be no further information. If you read the same as I have read it just says she fainted from undernourishment. Now I too have friends and family who were forced onto the dole due to this recession, and their standard of living has been reduced drastically. They go to bed earlier ,to save electricity, and supper, they eat more porridge and weetabix, beans potatoes rice and pasta , There are much fewer treats, and their family cars sold in some cases. Sky/UPC cancelled.It is not beyond the realms of possibilities that this child is malnourished for the simple reason the mammy is trying to make ends meet.
      A little empathy goes a long way , but Gary , it is such a shame `you will never have it and that will always be your loss:) Good night . Oh Vote NO.

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  • I don’t think this government would be stupid enough to damage their support by holding the referendum, at least not in the immediate aftermath. We can join later if we wish, so if we did vote No and the mood changed when people copped on that the EU didn’t end up getting more austerity as a result and Ireland were stuck in a rut looking for help. This, I think, was what Burton was saying. Will we be back at the polls with our hands up high, looking to join so we can get the bailout? Embarrassing much?

    So no, I don’t think that at least in the immediate aftermath will this be re-run. I don’t see why its even on the table, when the polls are showing an increase in support for the treaty and not a decline. Nevertheless, this is going to be used by the No side to add some strength to their dwindling campaign. They called for backup with Ganly and then with Nigel Farage. Now they have this stick to poke with. And by god will they use it.

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    • Well Kevin,nobody thought this government would continue implementing the failed policies of the previous government,yet here we are.It’s not stupidity but arrogance…

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    • I agree with you Kevin. Legally as with *all* our referenda there is nothing stopping the government of the day calling another vote but I doubt they would. Though I can’t help but feel if we voted no and the poo hit the fan we’d be asking for a rerun, not complaining about it.
      To be honest though the Journal is getting more and more like the Daily Mail, just trying to grab the sensationalist headline. You’d think it was the only thing he said, and he took it back in the same debate.

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    • They did mention that he retracted the statement, Gary.

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    • Only a blind party follower could try to defend a blatant attack on our democratic process.

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    • They did indeed Chris. I’m just seeing a storm in a teacup. I’d hate to be in the government where every last word you say is gone over to be used as ammunition even if you explain yourself.

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    • Caroline what the hell are you talking about? Legally there is nothing that stops the government of the day calling another referendum. That is the law. Fine if you don’t like it, but let’s not pretend it’s a “blatant attack on our democratic process”. It is the process.

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    • Dear Irish Peasants,
      We don’t care if you vote NO we’ll keep making you vote until its yes!
      Yours with love,
      Fine Gael
      P.S. we’ll soon be merging with FF so we can ditch the champagne socialists and rule you like the minions you are…….If Angela tells us to!

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    • Calm down Gary, You’ll get your Yes vote even if takes 10 referenda !
      Great attitude, are you saying we could be voting a second time on a treaty with a “growth pack” and write down in bank debt included?
      Why not postpone the referendum until it is?

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    • Ru Ni Digs; Doesn’t seem to be failing, and people were well warned that the agreement would be honoured but that they would try re-negotiate parts. They did that and continue to do so. People were well warned that times would be tough, that cuts would be made and that it wasn’t going to be easy. Party manifestos included stuff like property tax and water charges. (I’m against the current structure of the property tax, but have no objection to the theory behind it as we have such a tax in Ireland for years anyway)

      That’s not to say they didn’t tell lies during the election, I don’t for one second condone that. Likewise, I do believe that expenses and wages for all TDs, Ministers etc. should be cut further than they were and that does take into account the taxation that hits their wages. Start from the top, not the middle. Likewise, I absolutely hate the salaries these advisers are being paid with caps being breached.

      But on the grand scheme of things, a year or so into government things are not going downhill but moving slowly upwards. Jobs are being created nearly every day, more so than before. We look set to be heading back to the markets in the next while. We are meeting the terms of the EU/IMF agreement without much difficulty. We are seeing growth for the first time in a while. Is it moving fast enough? No. Could it? Maybe a bit. Will it? If Europe wakes up and starts giving us growth mechanisms and not just fiscal control. This treaty is about fiscal controls, with a possible growth pack being added soon (hopefully).

      With the topic at hand – if you actual listen to what the argument being made was and Brutons response, it was obvious he didn’t mean a second vote was on the cards – it was a suggestive scenario, our hands held high looking for money after a rejection. Another PR cockup? Obviously, as we all knew the media and No camp would have a field day with it.

      We have been asked to vote in previous referendums because 1) The majority voted as an anti-government protest, 2) It was important we took part in those treaties and we risked isolation. Hence, the people voted in (on a second vote only) in a clear majority. There was no hands being held high by the Irish people. Bruton was saying for Ireland, if the mood was changing after the situation that was described came as a reality than we would be asking with our hands held high for help (on the assumption the mood changed in Ireland, not because the government insist).

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    • Kevin
      Here you go again all knowing being that you are . This is what you think Bruton meant ……. Jesus wept !
      How in the name of all that is holy can you seriously believe your own spin, because that is all it is , Humerous to point but it is gone well beyond a joke now. Vote NO

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    • Susie Chester; We are all entitled to our opinion. I could easily spin this on you – do you believe your own spin? Austerity treaty? Jesus wept! etc. but I wont because you are entitled to your view and if you can only see one way, so be it. If you do ever have doubts, vote Yes. Sure, ya know its the only way ;)

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    • Kevin.
      I do not deal in spin ( altho I will give you the Jesus wept bit , old habits and all that).
      I truely believe that this treaty is wrong and we must vote no.
      It is not a popularity game . But yo are entitled to your own opinion , if that is what it is .

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    • Susie; Your Facebook profile graphic is spin. The treaty isn’t an austerity treaty.

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    • Kevin , The referendum is an austerity treaty . Do not confuse spin with slogans. Oh and the treaty is not a stability treaty … Nothing stable in it.

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    • A list I stole off boards.ie

      What’s in existing agreements:
      1. the 3% deficit rule
      2. the 60% debt rule
      3. the structural balance rule
      4. the penalties and procedures attached to breaches of the rules

      What’s new:
      1. transposing the fiscal rules into national law
      2. creating a national ‘correction mechanism’
      3. making 1 and 2 subject to a ruling of the CJEU
      4. the voting mechanism for determining whether the rules have been breached, which moves from requiring majority to support to requiring a majority to block

      And finally access to the ESM.

      See Susie it can’t be the austerity treaty as the limits already exist. Don’t seem to recall people claiming all those wild things about them when we brought them in, some of them 20 years ago.

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    • …..Oh Gary
      sigh.
      We have upheld all of those rules, and for the eu to reduce the deficit rule to0.5% and hold the debt rul at 60% is outrageous. €6 billions worth on top of the cuts we are already suffering.Now they threaten us with the cjeu and fines if we default on the new terms…..
      there is nothing stable about the ESM.
      Personally I am terrified of this vote being carried . I mean terrified . There is no good can come of it . Vote No . I can only go with what I trust and I trust me and what I have learnt about this treaty, whatever it is called , austerity, stability/ european fiscal compact treaty

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    • Susie Chester; Fair play. Your very good at the awl spin. :)

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    • If the Government lose the referendum, it is not a rerun that will be needed but a general election.

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    • Spin Kevin ? Not at all . I keep hitting the nail on the head . :)

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    • Now you are talking Garry Whelan .
      Well said , there position would be untenable after two defeats in as many months ….

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    • oops * their position ……

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    • censored 17/05/12 #

      So you’re admitting the first bailout has failed?

      And you think that continuing the same policy in return for a second bailout is going to help?

      Wow!

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    • @Gary
      The slip speaks to their mindset and their opinion of us and oh, that includes what they think of you ad well.

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    • …I can’t help but notice he said something you want to hear and you believe it to be true. He retracted and apologised, and you believe that to be false. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

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    • Ha ha Confirmation Bias . Your argument is getting ridiculous…. or maybe I am too tired to be bothered . Either way I am tired. Good night.

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  • When this thing started I told people that they would pull this kind of stunt , 2 things to remember (1) even if we vote no there is no way Europe would deny us a 2nd bailout if we needed it they simply could not afford the risk of the euro collapsing , (2) All Bruton is doing is testing the waters , kenny has not got the balls to say it , but if they get a no vote they will try again , this government has not yet delivered one thing they promised in the run up to the general election , well I suppose that is unfair they did look after their cronies with huge pat rises despite the wage caps and they paid huge pensions and severances to senior people and then rehired them , yes moral corruption is alive and well in the f.g labor government

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  • Very surprised at the reaction to the possibility of a second vote. This is exactly what the NO side have been calling for. They want to defeat this round, seek a bank debt deal and then ask the people again, at least that’s what Libertas are implying.

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    • And YOU’RE implying that a bank deal would be done before this hypothetical second vote. Anything to back that up david?

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    • David, that’s your party’s twisted opinion re Libertas. The vote on the treaty is asking people to vote ‘yes’ or ‘no’ on a ‘we really don’t know what will be the final conclusion of this treaty re add-ons, re-negotiations, opt-outs and vetoes! You are an ill-educated mouthpiece on this subject and really need to learn the meaning of the word ‘conjecture’…. You are the king of it.

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    • censored 17/05/12 #

      I think people are just a little disgusted at the tactics. Obviously we could be voting on this again, regardless of whether it’s a yes or no vote this time.

      Personally, I think this is good news from Bruton. He should start planning the second vote now, and the negotiation strategy as well.

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    • What’s wrong with what Libertas are asking for? It’s almost like FG don’t want us to pay less debt.

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  • Hate to be pedantic but it’s referundums NOT refrerenda

    Reply

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