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Dublin: 5 °C Friday 24 May, 2013

Cabinet to discuss plan of action for new abortion rules

Ministers are expected to decide this morning on what course of action to take based on the Expert Group’s report.

Enda Kenny has said the government will proceed with plans to address the Expert Group's report on Irish abortion law in 2013.
Enda Kenny has said the government will proceed with plans to address the Expert Group's report on Irish abortion law in 2013.
Image: Sasko Lazarov/Photocall Ireland

THE CABINET is expected to agree this morning on its plan of action to address the shortcoming in Irish abortion laws identified by the European Court on Human Rights last year.

Ministers will discuss the findings of the Expert Group into the European ruling on the A, B and C case, which found that the human rights of a woman living in Ireland were being breached by the failure of the government to offer clear legislation in the area.

The most likely prospect is that ministers will opt for a ‘legislation plus regulations’ model – a decision which would see the Oireachtas vote on a basic legal framework for the provision of terminations under defined and limited circumstances, with finer details filled by statutory instruments.

The ‘legislation plus regulation’ option, however, could set up political challenges for the government – and particularly for Fine Gael, several of whose TDs have openly declared their opposition to any liberalisation of Ireland’s current abortion laws, and who therefore may need convincing to back it.

One FG TD, Eoghan Murphy, yesterday called on his party to offer members a ‘free vote’ on the issue – where they would be able to vote in line with their personal ideology, and not be required to vote in line with party policy – but the prospect has been ruled out by the party leadership.

‘Chilling effect’ of existing laws

While other options are available, full legislation is seen as the avenue most likely to be taken, given that any alternative would mean an Act from 1861 – explicitly prohibiting women and doctors from carrying out abortions – would remain in place.

This law was discussed by the European Court of Human Rights in its ruling on the A, B and C case as a “chilling effect” – meaning medical professionals could still feel reluctant to carry out a termination procedure, even where the Irish courts had already found that a woman had the right to undergo one.

The Supreme Court ruled in 1992 – in its ruling in the ‘X Case’ – that the Irish Constitution allows abortions in cases where the life of an expectant mother is put at risk by continuing with her pregnancy. However, successive governments have opted against introducing laws to give effect to this right.

Taoiseach Enda Kenny yesterday told RTÉ that whatever decision made by Cabinet would be followed up in the New Year, saying he did not want to see the issue “left hanging around interminably”.

The Pro Life Campaign has insisted, however, that any legislation to allow abortion under the terms of the X Case ruling would “blur the distinction between life saving medical interventions in pregnancy and induced abortion”.

The Expert Group’s report was published three weeks ago, and has been extensively debated in the Dáil since then – with debate on the report wrapping up yesterday.

Read: SF strips Peadar Toibín of committee chairmanship over X Case vote

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Comments (65 Comments)

  • Let’s hope they get this right and completed as early as possible in 2013, as in before March!

    Reply
  • Just trust a woman to decide for herself.

    Anti-choicers just do not want to leave it up to a woman and so pretend that all some women want to do is use an invasive treatment that costs a lot of money to have done as a contraception, which is ludicrous. No-one makes the decision to terminate a pregnancy easy, it’s a horrible thing to have happen to anyone and we need to give the proper support and the proper respect to women that decide to do so.

    These archaic laws are just left over from a time when a man/church told a woman to stay at home and shut up.

    Reply
  • One day and hopefully this century this country will care more about its people. Too many kids, rape victims, ill etc having to go to UK for this procedure. It’s a woman’s body and should be her choice.

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    • According to Morning Ireland on RTE rape and incest will not be considered grounds for an abortion. I just hope they manage to provide meaningful legislation that works.

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    • Crazy backwards thinking. The mental anguish such events might have on a girl. A permanent reminder for her, issues around bonding with the child and in the case of incest a significant chance of birth defects if by a close family member.

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    • Keith and Kerry … The government can only legislate for what is constitutional and unfortunately that excludes abortion on the grounds of rape or incest. I can’t see this Dáil looking to change the constitution to extend the right to choose beyond the narrow confines of X, however, many of us in the Labour Party will be pushing for this to be included in Labour’s manifesto for the next general election.

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    • So Desmond if your next door neighbours house was on fire would you still dial 999 if I told you they were conceived through rape/incest? I presume you still would.
      So then tell me exactly why being conceived through rape/incest makes it ok to kill you in the womb?

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    • yes Keith agree !!
      come on Ireland join the rest of the World, look after the women in the country, your mothes and sisters and daughters

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    • Desmond I wish your party would stop using the constitution as an excuse to bar women’s, gay rights etc. As for Labours next manifesto the public have grown wise you your parties lies and couldn’t care less what diatribe you put in this eulogy. You’ll be as dead as the Greens and PD’s :)

      Reply
    • I wouldn’t be concerned about the next general election you won’t be runners in it , maybe the new Labour Party will be , with Roisin Shorthall as leader.

      Reply
  • I support the woman’s right to choose.

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    • What about a man’s right to choose? Strange example I know, but..what if a man was raped by a woman (yea, it happens) and she became pregnant, should he have the right then to request an abortion?

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    • You support the woman’s right to choose what exactly……..the Surgeon,the Nurse, the Meds, the Hospital and her right to pay for it or my responsibility as a taxpayer. You cannot simply say that this complex area can be resolved by one single “right”. I’m tire of the entitlement brigade in this country.

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    • @CH; rape and incest are areas that absolutely must be accounted for. I don’t know what the answer is, but it’s one that isn’t being entertained by either side – the prolife saying no, the prochoice saying mothers choice only. Clearly there are situations that need discussing.
      @MJC; the “entitlement” is actually a right – a right to safe and appropriate healthcare. The only thing that the prolife brigade do is ensure that women do not have this right, as you’ll notice, preventing access by law ensures women go underground or abroad to obtain a termination. This in turn sends the maternal death rate all the way up to the red zone; which is not what any registered nurse, midwife or doctor wants.

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    • Choose till when. ? Up to birth ? For any reason whatsoever ?

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    • Can you provide any statistics on male rape by women?

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    • Choose until the foetus is viable outside the uterus.
      Up until birth – no. Up until the point at which the foetus is viable outside the uterus, unless ether life is endangered, or the foetus has a condition that is not compatible with life.
      For whatever reason? Until foetus is viable outside uterus, yes. After that? Medical reasons only.

      Reply
    • The RCNI 2009 report states that of the people who took counselling (1389), 14% were male survivors of sexual abuse.
      http://www.rcni.ie/uploads/RCNINationalStatistics2009.pdf

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    • Cream Hamstring, my opinion would be no, he couldn’t request an abortion (as it’s not currently residing in his body), but he should be able to waive all parental obligations in those circumstances.

      Reply
  • It’s a good job we have plenty of women of child bearing age in the cabinet to ensure that these decisions are influenced by people who might be directly affected by the outcome.

    It would be awful if our cabinet were dominated by old middle class men.

    Reply
  • Just give women the right to choose . Everyone has an opinion but it should be the opinion of the woman to choose as there the one life could be in danger .

    Reply
    • Indeed, but that will require amending the constitution. You up for that?

      Reply
    • Yes I am up for that.

      Constitutions should be torn up and rewrote every 30-40 years. Who cares what Dev and his party thought was best for Ireland in 1937.

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    • Repealing by a 2013 Referendum the pernicious and dangerous Article 40.3.3 of the Constitution introduced by the Eight Amendment in 1983 is the only effective legal solution.

      Let the people in 2013 decide. Let the women whose lives, health and welfare are at stake have the opportunity to decide.

      The pressure groups for pro-life are stronger and better organised than ever before, they are better funded, external funding from US donors but the difference in 2012 is that voters are not longer as influences by authority, by the institution of the Roman Catholic Church, not longer as receptive to religious dogma and more aware of the dangers to pregnant women.

      A referendum simply repealing Article 40.3.3 has a real prospect of success. It’s far from a certain outcome but a real effort from the non-extremists might secure repeal. If the Labour Party would support in 2013 the introduction of such a Referendum, that would be a mark of true political courage. I suspect that expediency will prevail.

      At least Alan Shatter was willing to stick out his neck on this issue.

      Reply
  • First and most importantly should we, as a society, not start by looking after the children that are already here? As long as we cannot do that; safeguard the ones that are already born, making sure their needs are looked after in terms of medical, education, a childhood; we have no business whatsoever to keep harping on about the life a foetus may possibly have.

    Everything that is going on in the world suggests to me that in a twisted sort of way we value the unborn life more than we look after the children that are already born. Once they are out, the world ceases to care…about them or the mother.

    Children are, among other groups, the first to suffer the cuts of austerity. (Years of prosperity and the nations children are looked after by a wonderful but struggling nursing staff in outdated hospitals with outdated equipment and no money to remedy the situation! How the hell could anyone let that happen?)

    Children are left suffering in loveless homes by parents who cannot or will not look after them.

    Parents of children with special needs (no matter how severe or mild) have a massive struggle on their hands fighting for assistance in looking after them.

    Parents who care for their special needs children are punished at every turn and mostly let down by the state, relying on charities without whose the situation would be dire altogether (Jack and Jill foundation anyone? Just to name one example.)

    So before anyone goes preaching about the life and right of the unborn child:
    Yes, every life is precious – So let’s start looking after the ones we already have in this world.
    Yes, every life is precious – equally is the quality of life they have.
    Yes, every life is precious – And that includes the mothers and/or fathers.

    Let’s give the choice to the people whom it concerns. (within a framwork that includes counselling during the decision making process and after, discussion of all choices open to the individual, a sane cut-off point for non-medical abortions).
    Stop assuming the every woman in Ireland will go off having abortions willy nilly.
    Stop assuming crisis pregnancies are only ever the result of some floosie having unprotected sex.
    Stop insulting women’s intelligence by assuming they will make these choices lightly and without thought for that little heart beating away inside of them. There may be some, (call them callous, I would) but at the end of the day, it is their choice and one they will have to live with.

    If you are someone who does not agree with abortion, legalization does not mean anyone will be forcing you to have one. Everyone will be able to continue to live by what they believe to be right for them.

    Reply
    • @ Stephanie, what a humane, real, decent and people loving post! It is that eloquence that real sincerity gives.

      The reality is that women will only have abortions in case of real and compelling necessity. It disturbs me, even as a man, that there is a perceived need to try to impose legal manacles on women to prevent abortions. Fortunately for most women travel to the UK is the solution but that does not avail women who are too ill or too indigent to travel.

      My experience of life tells me that women are compassionate, empathetic and protective. There is no need and no sensible practical purpose to be served by imposing blunt law on complex situations.

      Paradoxically, it is sometimes in countries where the most liberal legal regimes apply, that there is the lowest rate of abortion.

      Education, diminishing teenage pregnancies, reduction in poverty, greater social ante natal and post natal supports, male partner support and other practical methods provide a more resource hungry but vastly more effective way of reducing the level of abortions.

      Abortion is generally the last resort for a pregnant woman. Criminal laws seek only to stigmatise the unfortunate women who have no other option. It is so unnecessary.

      Your post above is moving and eloquent. It contrasts with the strident and accusatory pro-life polemic.

      Reply
  • The hope is that the Cabinet will introduce legislation which will effectively ensure that clinicians can safely treat pregnant women whose lives are in danger as a result of the continuation of the pregnancy.

    The elephant in the room and the factor which greatly ties the hands of the Government is Article 40.3.3 of the Constitution. This pernicious and dangerous Constitutional provision renders a pregnant woman merely equal to a foetus in terms of the right to life. Article 40.3.3 was appallingly drafted because PLAC in April 1981 started with a wording which only gave the foetus a right to life and Fianna Fáil adjusted the wording to allow the pregnancy woman parity.

    I am no defender of the Government but the Constitution prevents the Government from legally permitting abortion where pregnancy has been caused by rape, incest or if life the pregnant woman is not endangered in a real and substantial way. So her health and longer term life prospects must be ignored.

    The only effective legal solution is the repeal of Article 40.3.3 of the Constitution but no political party has the courage to advocate this. The Life Institute, the Iona Institute and the Roman Catholic Church Institute will not permit the repeal of Article 40.3.3.

    Sadly whatever legislation is introduced which gives even the life of the mother priority over the foetus will be constitutionally challenged. I don’t know how legislation can be rendered constitutionally bullet proof in advance. All that can be done is to take a very narrow and conservative approach, inadequate as it may be, and hope for the best.

    Pro-life rules in Ireland. For those who can afford it and are healthy enough so to do, travel to the UK is the necessary safety valve. We should be grateful that option exists and that the influence of European Law, the European Convention on Human Rights and instructions such as the UN are ameliorating the worst effects of the pro-life laws.

    It looks like those who decided the Eight Amendment back in 1983 have left us a permanent legacy of Constitutionally enshrined Roman Catholic dogma.

    On the issue of suicide, it is defeatist but let us hope that women anguished by unwanted pregnancy will be healthy enough to travel as the primary solution. I suspect that even if the legislation permits a suicidal ideation exemption from prohibition of abortion, it would be too dangerous for clinicians and patients to undergo this in Ireland. Just imagine if The Life Institute or the Iona Institute discovered the location of the venue for such therapeutic abortions! The blood is chilled by that notion. Practically, the only solution is for the pregnant woman to travel to the UK and thereby to elude the Irish Fundamentalists and their storm troopers.

    Reply
  • http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/1218/1224327960405.html

    Let people read that first..

    Its a womans right to choose. If an embryo is a human then condoms are kidnapping and blow jobs are cannabalism.

    Stop listening to these groups people and empower the woman to make her own choice…

    Reply
  • Rules…..great enda you dictate to women we need a good man like you to tell us how to live …abortion should be a choice not a rule made by a group of people who can not see or feel for anyone…gob shites

    Reply
    • Angela
      Our system of Government is dependant on Rules or Laws. How else my dear woman would you like to live. Would you prefer a system without either because that would be pure mayhem. And by the way, when you make comments you should try to be less of a fish wife with your colourful language . We have Societal Rules about vulgarity and people being I’ll mannered in the way they express themselves.

      Reply
    • Unfortunately there is still too much influence by an ancient church in our relatively new State.

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    • Would educated thicks suit Michael and yes rules are needed in society and I follow them but some things are beyond rules and need common sense….

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    • Mjhint 18/12/12 #

      ?As soon as we abandon our own reason, and are content to rely upon authority, there is no end to our trouble?.? Bertrand Russell. Michael the laws you speak of in a lot of cases are meant to protect the citizens of any republic. Unlike you I have seen both sides of the law including where it fails & is corrupt. While I do share your view of a lawful society Ireland does not fully comply & the law is the property of the elite in this country. This in my view has diluted the power & importance of the laws you speak of as it is being used to punish the ordinary citizen in this country. If you believe the law makers in this country have our interests at heart Im afraid you are a serf. My principles have higher standards.

      Reply
    • Michael.
      Our constitution grants abortion in limited circumstances, yet the law is not in place. One of the rules we must follow is legislating to give effect to our constitution to ensure that our citizens rights may be legally vindicated. Perhaps you should be congratulating the government for finally committing to adhering to these rules rather than opposing it?

      Reply
  • Let’s get real about this people…politicians have a hand in it therefore it is bound to get screwed up simply because they do not have the skillsets, experience, moral compass nor empathy to carry this out with moral conviction.

    Reply
    • Wrong, as Gilmore said, “… six governments have failed to legislate on X, this will not be the seventh.” This govt will deliver legislation on X that is constitutionally bulletproof.

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    • Desmond just because you think I am wrong does not mean that your pals in the coalition won’t screw this up…let me think now. What have they got right so far that concerns the welfare of the average human being? oh yeah that’s right nothing!

      Take your head out of there and get with reality. They could not agree on the colour of sh1te!

      Reply
    • FFS Desmond, stop quoting gilmore, will you. He’s a proven liar.

      Reply
  • and around and around we go, when we stop no one knows.
    Is there no point on which the issue can be a ‘discussion’ and not a free for all.
    the RC church has no place in this, non!! they have done enough damage to the people of Ireland
    ( I believe )

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  • Should the women of 2013, the women now affected by Article 40.3.3 of the Constitution, have the opportunity to vote on this matter, which was voted upon in 1983 in very different circumstances? Why should women today be legally bound by a referendum decision made 30 years ago? Why not let the people decide?

    This time we may not be bullied by the institution of the Roman Catholic Church, the Youth Defence League, the Iona Institute and their political allies. Why should Church dogma be allowed to influence secular law?

    Reply
  • Ciaran 18/12/12 #

    Well my view is ‘Pro-Life’ is fascist fantasy, everyone needs choices and this is a choice not a right to be taken away from anyone.

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  • He looking more like Dustin every day . He’ll Enda up in the oven one of these days .
    Me coat , I’m off

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  • yet again politicians are making a family issue into a political issue

    Reply
  • It is humorous how my generation was brought up thinking the government of Ireland is a representation of the citizens of Ireland. I admit I am not the sort of person that reads about laws and legislation, but it would seem to me and maybe my perception of things is wrong, but it would seem that “our government” is a “pile of shit”. I suppose there is no point giving my opinion because when the time comes to make a decision I will not be informed and the verdict will have already been passed, much like Article 42.5 of the Irish Constitution. I really can not wait to see what is in store for the next few years because it is only a matter of time before the people of Ireland get fed up of sitting back and letting “our government” determine how “our country” is controlled.

    Reply
  • There are perfectly legitimate fears that any legislative framework will end up allowing for abortions in situations it was never intended. Take a look at the British 1967 act which upon reading envisages a tightly regulated regime yet its provisions have been applied to allow for de facto abortion on demand as the recent Daily Telegraph stings and the ‘cleft palate’ court case have shown.

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  • Legislation for X would, for the first time, establish the principle that the life of an unborn child can be directly targeted for destruction in Ireland. This is entirely different to the situation in Ireland at present where a woman receives whatever medical treatment she needs while pregnant but at the same time the life of her unborn child is protected in so far as this is practicable. Once that principle is established, respect for life unravels very quickly. This has been the experience of other countries. It is foolhardy to think Ireland would be any different.

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    • An embryo is not a child.

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    • Good point. Lets wait until more people die before we do anything.

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    • Yes, becuase doctors and nurses have no respect for life and will cheerfully seek the destruction of an unborn child.
      Ffs.

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    • U don’t agree don’t have one but keep ur nose out of the lives of people who do end of story .
      ..

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    • Your presumption is incorrect Cora; the availability of termination is inversely proportional to the number of terminations carried out. That’s what the facts and stats say.

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    • Absolute rubbish ! Clearly it’s not practised here at the moment as evidenced by recent events. I’m sorry … but in any event it’s not OK to force a woman to have a child she feels she cannot manage …. not to even mention the extreme of a pregnancy developing after a rape. If this were us men having the babies …. we would not even be talking about this …. it would be done long ago ! It’s an old argument but its true!

      Reply
    • Little Jim
      Because Nurses and Doctors see far more of life/death than almost anybody – they know the reality of it all. Holy Joes who DO Not understand and cannot see past their own misguided beliefs fight so they themselves can feel all warm and fuzzy – while the real people who face their pro life tyrannical ravings suffer

      You are not pro life – pro life means ignore facts that abortion occurs snd your idiotic ramblings only cause suffering to people who must travel for these abortions.

      As a nurse I am often am placed with situations where I must decide and advise to patients whether my actions are to make me/or the family feel better or whether the actions are the best to make the patients life /situation better, no matter what my own feelings on this may be.

      I would suggest pro lifers do not consider anybody else in their argument because they do not feel abortion is right and thats all they can seel Open our eyes – if you truly care you will see it isnt about your feelings, You can not pass judgement on other peoples lives End Of

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    • Tell that to the next couple that, excitedly, announce their happy news!

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  • my neighbour was told her foetus was not viable, when her daughter was born she was told her daughter would not survive more than 3 months. Her daughter is now seven years of age and just back from Disney land.

    Where there is life there is hope .

    Reply
  • If you, when still an embryo, had been aborted, you or your children or your children’s children would never exist. How difficult is it for you to admit that? This is not a religious argument, it’s simply a fact. It is the right of every woman to do what she wants with her own body but the unborn child is not her body; it is a separate individual. No law of convenience will ever change that. There are circumstances when these two individuals must be separated but the termination of life is the most serious act any human being can carry out and must not happen for whimsical or selfish reasons. I’m glad that everyone participating in this debate was afforded the right to life and I hope they dignify that life with respect for opinions other than their own.

    Reply
    • Tricia G 18/12/12 #

      Yes. All true. And yet I would still fight for my Mother to have had the right to make the choice. to have had an abortion I’ve never, ever failed to admit that. It was her choice, not mine.

      Being a woman of child bearing age I STRONGLY believe that NO ONE has the right to FORCE me to carry a pregnancy against my will.

      Do you deny that abortions occur? Do you deny that thousands of Irish women travel to access a safe abortion in the UK? Do you deny that if there were not a safe environment abortions would STILL occur only a large number of women would die?

      Or perhaps what I should really be asking is, do you care?

      Reply
    • Yes I wouldn’t exist. So what? If my mother had rolled over and gone to sleep I wouldn’t exist either. What’s your point?

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  • From the instant spark of conception, you are you!

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    • What about all the other semen who didnt quite make it what about the semen and the egg who meet but it doesnt work out.,
      THe fact is a group of cells should not cause so much ire, Its not a baby yet,
      The difference between the pro life miserable gits and the pro choice come down to this (sort of)
      These 2 ideas and aproaches will never agree, so
      The only solution is for pro life to believe abortion is the devils work and shut the fckuk up about it and the pro choice side to offer all the choices to the pregnant girl and the appropriate councelling

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    • Thats your blind religious opinion.

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    • Look at that name, troll…

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    • not much of a ‘spark’ when its born into poverty or is a result of rape.
      Spark is very Mills& Boons, !!

      Reply
    • Look, it’s simple. Michelle Mulherin put it succinctly….no fornication, unless of course you want to become one of the fallen and end up vainly searching for the grace of God in your cornflakes because your barred from church on Sunday for playing hide the sausage.

      Reply

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