Is it unreasonable to be against the death penalty? I think Gay Mitchell is in good company in not seeing execution as anything other than a barbaric punishment. I’m surprised that people have an issue with this.

“Just in case…” they were ever found out… let’s face it, teh Vatican is a place that should be the subject of an inquiry into paedophile abuse…

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Innocent until proven guilty! If a crime has been committed, let it be dealt with by the civil authorities.

YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES!

Did I say yes? YES!

And even if David Norris doesn’t run -

- Write “David Norris” on the Ballot Paper
- Mark an “X” Beside His Name
- Send a Message!!!

Because this is about more than David Norris, great humanitarian that he is.

This is about the Irish people who have been so badly served by their government, priests, financial regulator, mortgage providers and banks -

HAVING A SAY IN WHO THEY WANT FOR PRESIDENT!!!!!!!11!!1!1!!!

Thank you for your time.

And Japan has no age of consent

The age of consent was not the real issue with Norris’s statements. I never understood why RTE ran with that, maybe it was a distraction. His comments about the Christian Brother and molesters in general were so far off the mark, that if Seán sixpack said it, he would have the guards around questioning him.

Norris got a soft ride on this, from the media. He is very well connected.

Good question. Probably a fairly important one too I’d say given the campaign to get him back in the race!

Important up to a point, but the real issue here is the grip on such an election wielded by the mainstream political parties and their shills.

I’m very tempted to undermine the lot of them if they don’t mind their manners.

There are a lot of bodies buried out there under a lot of concrete.

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That sounds scary, Michael!!

Not one word about the victim in his letter supporting his friend who was convicted of rape.

We need an educated articulate president. I’m for Norris.

me too. thats why i’ll give Michael D my vote.

Norris pulled out because all the TD’s backing him started walking away, and most of his campaign staff did likewise, they all did so on the same time period. Unseen letters that Norris had written being cited as the reasons they quit.

Norris is n ot coming back, as he knows that if he does the Sunday Indo. will have a great scoop on him and publish straight away and he ‘ll be finished in all politics, better to lay low, stay in his cushy seanad job and carry on. That is what he will do.

Don’t just spoil your vote.

Mark his name on it.

There will be a great recounting of spoiled votes and the reason should be printed on them in indelible ink.

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Deasun Mac An Choiligh,

Open your mind before you open your mouth.

Rome is governed by the laws if Italy, and so is the Vatican City.

===============================================================

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_consent_in_Europe#Vatican_State

Vatican State

The Vatican does not have its own separate criminal code. Instead, in matters of criminal law, as per Article 3 of the “Law of the Source of Law” (one of the six fundamental laws adopted upon ratification of the Lateran Treaty in 1929) the Vatican State generally uses current Italian national law, as well as regional and municipal laws for Rome, as long as they do not conflict with ecclesiastical law or laws specifically promulgated by Pope for the Vatican.[61] As a result, the age of consent is the same as that of Italy. Before January 1, 2009, the adoption by the Vatican of changes made by Italy in its laws was automatic. After this date, the Vatican adoption of changes in Italian law is no longer automatic but comes into effect only after a review.[62] However, as Italy adopted its present age of consent before January 1, 2009, this change in Vatican policy does not affect the age of consent in Vatican City, which remains the same as that of Italy, 14.

The claim is sometimes made that “In the Vatican State, there is an equal age of consent set at 12 years of age”,[63] but this is incorrect. In 1929, when the Lateran Treaty was signed, the age of consent in Italy was 12,[64], and this was indeed adopted by the Vatican. However, as stated above, the rise in the Italian age of consent applied automatically to the Vatican City.

===============================================================

Look at the farcical accusations being spewed by the right winger fundies here.

They’re hammering Norris because he asked for clemency for his then-lover Nawi who had consensual sex with a fifteen year old in Israel.

Let me spell this out for all the Catholic hypocrites here.

If Nawi had had sex with his fifteen year old partner in Italy, there would have been no case of statutory rape.

Deny it all you want, but that is the fact of the matter.

Wikipedia , real trustworthy source of mis-information…., in actual fact the Vatican divorced itself from Italian law on new yrs day 2009 , the reason given was that Italian Law was in conflict with the rules of the Church , as a result the Vatican now scrunitises International Law , as in their refusal to decriminilise Homosexuality , Civil Unions, & Divorce

18% of people would still vote for him and 45% want him back in the race. So they are seeking to have their voice heard and to vote for whom they choose.
And maybe he chose the wrong team for his campaign. But this what people want and this what people should get.

James Dunne,

The man was not his partner, he had been his partner ten years before he asked David to write the letter. He was not asking to get off his sentence. Many, many letters had been and still, are being written to this day by many politicians, yes, maybe it should be stopped but David Norris is a Senator, he is not, and was not a Taoiseach or Minister for Justice. The ones that were Taoiseach and Ministers for Justice should have stopped it a long time ago. It’s not against the law, yet! Now, ask questions about Mr. Mitchell and his letters! Two murderers! One of them shot a doctor and his colleage in the face and the other shot an 18 year old kid, beat her, then shot her, then …. raped her! Now give an opinion, an honest one. A few of his volunteer team resigned for their own reasons, which you know nothing about. So don’t give an opinion there unless you know the facts. David Norris has a right to be on our ballot paper as the others do. That is what democracy is! Read the facts, read all of them, the court papers, then give an educated opinion Sir!

So should Gay Mitchell resign then over the letters he has sent? Oh wait nope that’s fine because double stands is what traditional Irish politics are all about.

Mr. Jordan,

I assume, from what you wrote above, you are an adolecent? You sound like a playground bully? If you have a dictionary, look up the word democracy! I am a supporter of David Norris, and will be for the forseeable future. I believe in the man, I believe in what he has done for others and I solute him in all his hard work that he has done for world human rights! What have you done for others? what have done for that matter? I bid you good day sir!

Sheila,
You slag Martin for what he wrote and asked him has he a dictionary….

Have a look back over your post and note; “solute”, “adolecent”. Pot and kettle.

The spell lamers -vs- the defamers highlights of the political debate in Ireland.

How much of this Anti-David Norris stuff is because he has dared to criticize American Foreign Policy?

Even Americans criticize American Policy and American fiscal policy in particular.

Storm on the way – http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=26376

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Aidan Gill,

I did not ‘slag’ the gentleman, read what I wrote in the message! I asked him what the word was that he wrote. I’m not apologising for my spelling Sir, I am dyslexic, I am very proud of being dyslexic. If anyone is slagging off other members of this thread, is you. You just judged me on my spelling, I write and spell very well. I make the odd mistake and try and correct it. Don’t judge people, full stop. You don’t know me and you certainly don’t know Senator Norris!

Sinead,

My question to that person on this thread was honest, I didn’t imply anything, if you read it properly! I asked a question? A ‘question mark’ at the end of my sentence. I am well aware of a lot of the laws, here and abroad, and I am very much aware that they are there for a very good reason.
Sinead, you are telling me not to call people immature and adolescent-like. I am not the one that is calling Senator Norris – Dorris! To me, I am sure, like myself, David Norris has been called worse, but come on Sinead, cop on, it is a childish thing to do. That is my opinion, and I am entitled to it!

May i remind people that Senator Norris did not do this crime! He was not asking the Israel courts to let ‘Ezra’ off.

I didn’t suggest he did. Neither did Mitchell shoot anyone’s face off or rape a dying woman. He merely wrote letters on behalf of people who did. Before putting himself forward as a presidential candidate.

Hear, hear! Michael.

call all you want – it won’t happen

@ Mayo,
Before you comment back to me, if you decide to, it was another person that called him ‘Dorris’ in this discussion. So ignore that one sentence in my comment back to you.

Go for it Sheila!

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The only problem I ever had with DORRIS is that every time someone criticised him the “gay card” was played. Couldn’t care less about his sexuality. And neither should you.
(Gonna keep calling him Dorris now, just to point out that I can & still make a valid point)

Typical populist nonsense.

Agreed. Why not just put in a dictator all together and scrap democracy, sure it will save us a few bob. Lets leave just 166 people running the country with no checks and balances.

if by populist you are refering to someone with ideas and activites that are representitive of ordinary people…i stand guilty as charged… 166 people what?..the majority of employed people in Ireland work for the government..big government did nothing to stop this mess , no checks on the balance sheets….it works in Switzerland, no carrer politicians, just ordinary joe soaps who set the agenda for the year , then go back to their everyday jobs

Eh Deasun, no. In fact I think you haven’t a clue about Swiss democracy or politics. There are, just as in most other countries, career politicians in Switzerland. It has a different system whereby there is a Federal Council rather than a single individual President. If we take the current president of Switzerland (i.e. head of the Federal Council): her name is Micheline Calmy-Rey and was elected president for 2011. However, when she exits her role as president she will still be a member of the Federal Council, a body on which she has been a member since 2003. The members of the council are elected to a term of 4 years. There is no limit to the amount of terms. Legally anyone can become a member, but in practice it is generally reserved for MPs, or on occasion members of the Canton regional governments (Switzerland is a Federal republic with each federal member known as a Canton, in comparison with Canadian provinces, US states, and German Länder). Members of the Federal Council enjoy absolute immunity, which means they can not be tried for any crime they may commit under the capacity of a legal representative – any other crimes can only be tried with permission of the Federal Council unanimously. Outside of the Federal Council there also exists the National Council (similar to our Dáil) and a Council of States (with members elected by the Cantonal governments). Each Canton then has its own government responsible for Canton-level politics and administration. All in all, Switzerland has a far more complex, and, proportionately speaking, has more national politicians than Ireland per head of population.

Brian i bow to your knowledge, ya would’nt be able to tell me how to get the fada over name?

Yes Deasún. Alt Gr followed by the vowel in question. I’m not sure about Macs as I use MS Windows. If you want a capital Á just press Alt Gr at the same time as Shift and the letter A.

I totally agree. The presidency is a waste of space. Let the minister of foreign affairs of the day do any necessities. No disrespect to current or previous incumbents.

So, John, you would suggest the government be responsible for ensuring all legislation passed by the same government is constitutional? That type of governance is what allows dictatorships to arise – the very same thing was done in Germany in the 1930s.

Louise,

Never, say never!!! Take time out like I did last year, read about David Norris, read who he really is not who you think he is. I guarantee you, you will change your mind on him. While you are at it, read the meaning of the word ‘democracy’. You cannot have an honest opinion on someone unless you go to the bother of finding out who he is, what he has done for 1,000′s in this country and worldwide in human rights. He deserves to be heard. He deserves the same rights as the other candidates, TO BE ON OUR BALLOT PAPERS! Nobody is asking you to vote for him. That’s your decision.

It is totally democratic that Norris is not running. Candidates have to be backed by 20 TDs(who are democratically elected) or 5 councils (whose members are elected) to get a nomination. This fact is laid out in the Constitution which was endorsed by popular vote. 21,000 people wishing to circumvent these facts are not pro-democratic, they just cant let it go that Norris will not secure a nomination.

In in case you’ve forgotten. if enough people vote on a thing, that makes it democratic. Its caleld a referendum. There was nothing democratic in the vested interests blocking a candidate, any more than there was a valid reason for block Dana when she ran. Every candidate should be able to run instead of being subject to croney politics – this is the way power is maintained in the élitist circles of politics.

Could I ask you Mr. Jodan,

Do you have a problem with homosexuals/lesbians? Why, why would you call Senator Norris ‘Dorris’? This is the backward, childish comments Ireland can do without. Please be an adult here with this discussion, no need to go down there to the level. We all have our own opinions, we go on a page like this to discuss our opinions, not to name call each other silly, childish names.

Martin,

What is ‘sailuite you’? – better than you own? What do you mean?

@Sheila. What has any of this got to do with homosexual’s or Lesbians. Many of the people that walked away from Norris’s campaign were gay, They walked because his views and actions were unacceptable, irregardless of gender or sexuality.

Try not to turn this in to a football.

Hit the nail straight on the head there.

Shauna,

Not sure what you mean ‘copy and pasting’? Yes, of course that’s your opinion as much as I am entitled to mine and as much as a huge percentage of Irish voters have the right to vote for whom they want and for whom they are entitled to see on their ballot paper!

Where can you see that I am forcing anyone to do anything? My opinion is mine, you and others do what you will with your opinion. That is all I have to say to you Shauna. I bid you good day.

Shauna he did not use Government headed paper!!!!! The media totally misrepresents the letters and said he did. Look for yourself http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0730/norrisletter.pdf . You will see that the letter written to the court was written on plain paper and NOT on Government paper. It’s a pity that the media don’t highlight this and maybe it might make people reassess their position. I agree that Enda Kenny’s support for victims is the right course of action however I don’t think that it is that easy to compare the two situations. When confronted, Norris produced the letters voluntarily in 48 hours ( Mitchell can’t find his, hmmm ), the Catholic Church on the other hand engaged in a systematic cover up and tried to hide the evidence. Norris put his hands up, admitted that it was a grave error of judgement (14 years ago) and stepped down due to the public hysteria of an ill informed public whipped up by a media that had it’s own agenda. When was the last time you heard of a politician being this forthright with the public? The man is fallible just like us all, it’s a pity that people don’t look to their own failings in life and see how they would like to be judged before they get so self righteous.

It is good to see people such as yourself engaging in a debate such as this because at least it highlights the inadequacies of our current method of selection of candidates. I would be interested in hearing your reply after you have looked at the copy of the letters on the link that I have posted and whether it has changed your views in any way as regards Norris or the media.

@ Shauna,

Open your mind before you open your mouth.

Get your facts straight before you post.

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Brian,

The supporters of David Norris have been writing to Ministers and TDS and Senators calling on them to support democracy and allow David Norris on our ballot papers. We are still doing it today! The petitions and opinion polls are good because they show the support or non support of a topic.

I agree with you in principle Brian but let’s be honest, in practice when have TD’s ever listened to their constituents ? Take for example Galway City Council where Norris was denied even the chance to make his case by Hildegarde Naughton who only changed her mind when she realised that she had made a “mistake” and due to a “misunderstanding”. God help the people of Galway if this is the sort of people who are running their good city. elected representatives who don’t know what is going on in their own council meetings, “misunderstand” what they are voting on and deny the universal human right of freedom of speech to a Presidential candidate. I’d expect that in a third world country or Belarus but not in Galway.

The other problem to circumvent is that the TD’s in my constituency are 2 FG, 2 Labour and 1 Sinn Fein. Do you really think that they will listen to me when 2 of the parties have their own candidates are are under orders not to endorse anyone else even if I want them to? Sinn Fein are half thinking of running their own candidate for tactical reasons just to gain exposure full in the knowledge that they haven’t a hope of winning. In an ideal situation what you propose is indeed the right way to go about things, however, in practice once TD’s and political parties get your vote you become irrelevant for another 5 years or until the next election.

Brian, I agree. I signed the petition but also contacted TD’s. Now I didn’t get as many responses as I would have liked, and in predictable fashion the ones tied to parties blew up the smokescreen of “oh, he can still try to get support if he wants to” with only a few independents supporting the idea of reform of the current system. That said, that could easily just have been so I’d leave them alone. One thing of note is that I did not get any response from a Fine Gael TD at all, which I think speaks volumes. Whether one likes him or not, and whether one wants him back in the race or not, people must realise that we are in a very dangerous position when people want actual change and reform and it’s skated over because it doesn’t suit the party line. I can’t speak for everyone, but I personally will be watching how the people in power react like a hawk over the coming days when this gets more coverage.

@ Brian Daly.

The mainstream political parties applied the whip to prevent Norris getting a Nomination.

They don’t want a man who speaks his mind criticizing their dragging Ireland further into recession with austerity measures.

They don’t want a President who will support the families of innocent victims in American sponsored and generated Theatres of war.

They want some supine flute who will be distracted from the events on the world stage, the atrocities that will bring about world government, or a United States of Europe.

I want David Norris to make our voice heard and I don’t care if he occasionally let’s his heart rule his head.

Look at the slick willy running the US at the moment – sucking it up on College Green while Drone Aircraft continue to kill thousands in Pakistan – nearly as many killed there in the last ten years as in the thirty years Troubles in northern Ireland, most of them innocents.

You can keep sucking the American teat all you want – its time they improved their game and stopped trying to influence the internal politics of Ireland.

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@Michael: Actually, the only Party that applied the Whip is Fine Gael.
This is evidenced by the fact that Labour & Fianna Fáil cllrs have backed the nomination of Mary Davis & Séan Gallagher. Sure it’s it’s not just a fact that they didn’t think he represented their communities?

No moving on.

Send the mainstream parties, their shills and the fundies a message.

Then we can start digging up the bodies on politics in Ireland – we don’t need a tribunal to do this.

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just to clarify… there is no such report, but I do believe it highlights a certain hypocrisy inherent in supporting Norris

A “flip-flop” just shows an ability to change your mind. So yes, I would want a flip-flop president.

I never asked for 124billion , why in all thats good would i want to pay that back, im crippled with a 200,000 euro mortgage on a house worth 120,000…trust me im paying through the nose.

As for Iceland the citizens spoke up , twice, they never asked for that debt and they sure as hell ain’t paying it back…fair balls to them, they sacked the government.., jailed the bankers … Oh that the Irish would do somethiong so wrong to rock the boat……..get a grip lady

Deasun,

I too have a huge bloody morg. Lost my job 3 years ago. I agree with you on one point. Most definitely, bankers, Ministers etc. that were involved in this awful time should be jailed just like in Iceland and the U.S. CAB should take all their assets/bank accounts. Really hurt them.

Let’s finish by wishing each other well and good health!

Good Health Shiela

Dermot,

That’s all his supporters want, is for him to have that right to be on our ballot paper. He/we are not asking the electorate to vote for him, we are asking to have him on our ballot paper, so we too, as supporters of his, can vote for him, for whom we think and feel is the best to represent us as our 9th President.

The fact that many Co Councils seats are held by F Gael and Labour councillors should not stop Senator Norris being on the ballot paper. To me, that was his difficulty in getting nomination. So let’s hope democracy will prevail here.

Norris is part of the same generatioon and was at the front of the queue to help child abusers. A man devoid of morals is not fit to be in the Senate let alone Head of State. We dodged a bullet when he had to withdraw in disgrace,

And I’ll give you a third. Mitchell had the conviction to stick to his guns and stay in the race.

I don’t think you understand how opinion polls work Cormac.

Ok dermot please explain how opinion polls work. Can you tell me how many were polled, how they were chosen, age profile, demographic of the people polled. Also I was saying it cause one of the posters above said 1/3 of the population wanted Norris back.

There you go Cormac http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_poll

The poll was conducted among a sample of 993 adults representative of the approximate 3.35 million adults aged 18 or over interviewed face-to-face in the home at 64 sampling points throughout all constituencies. Interviewing was carried out on and between August 18 and 30.

Thanks dermot and Brian.