Agreed but freedom of expression is not an absolute and should not be used simply to create danger for others while the individual doing the expressing lies safely tucked up in bed!!

@Justin – It genuinely scares the crap out of me that you can honestly say that freedom of expression is (or should not be?) absolute. I hope there are not many more people of that frame of mind out there.

You used an example above saying that you would have respect for the person who got one of the cartoons and pinned it to a mosque door….now that would be deliberately provoking someone. Not everyone who reads the magazine in question is Muslim, so it isn’t the same in this situation. This is a satirical magazine, it is supposed to have exactly this kind of thing in it.

The freedom to say what you wish was long fought for and cost many lives around the world. No way should it ever be restricted in any sense. It is the most prized aspect of OUR society and OUR culture. If some Muslims can’t handle this, tough shit.

Bit harsh to be calling all cartoonists barbarians.

Yes. Hopefully the Sunday Indo.

Its not to long ago the Catholic church had media running scared in this country. Its against Islam to display images of the prophet so what’s the problem if a Christian displays it ? You don’t see Catholics threatening to blow up embassies because some Saudi eats meat on good Friday.

The french know how to stick it to the man. They are the only country that will stand up and outright disagree with islamic practices in their communities.

Theres no doubt it will provoke outrage but thats not to say it warrants outrage. Its not the fault of the cartoonist if the reaction are indescribably disproportionate to the provocation.

Why should the whole world have to tip toe about what they say and do. It really grinds my gears

If it means Nick Webb will have an angry mob with torches and pitchforks outside his house one night, I’m all for freedom of the press.

Practising your religion does not include using its tenets to restrict the freedoms of others who do not follow your religion.

Kevin, unfortunately one of the fundamental tenets of both islam and christianity is to convince, coerce or indoctrinate the entire human race (their god has “told” them so). In an ideal world you would be correct, but restriction of the freedoms of others is the basic ambition of both religions. The vast majority of both faiths are not of that faith by mature choice.

I agree Justin.

Freedom of speech being abused, it’s pure provocation to publish this.

So people who cary out unlawful and inhuman acts are no longer responsible?

Hopefully this will flush out the Muslim troublemakers who can then be banished back to the desert!

Frank
I didn’t say that they bore full responsibility but they must know that by doing this that they are putting people at risk like the American Ambassador in Iraq
If some important point was being made then fair enough but this is just stirring for the sake of it.

Dont be daft. Its the idiots that get their knickers in a knot over cartoons depicting make believe gods and kill others that bear the responsibility.

Fair enough but if you know the idiots are going to respond like this why go out of your way to provoke them?
It doesn’t make sense.

The Onion has a good take on this (WARNING: Not safe for work) http://www.theonion.com/articles/no-one-murdered-because-of-this-image,29553/

What do you mean by responsibility? Are you saying that any injuries or deaths resulting from this are on the heads of the cartoonists and not the Muslim extremists who carried them out? That’s some twisted logic.

Why would anyone willingly be held hostage to the beliefs of morons? This provocation (and that is exactly what it is) I believe is necessary to show the fanatics that the struggle for true secularism is not over and that our societies will not be intimidated by the questionable beliefs of charlatans. It is very unfortunate if people die over this but the responsibility for any death and destruction lies squarely with the those who ‘want to be shocked’.

What I mean by responsibility is that before you embark on a course of action you weigh up the pros & cons
We all know the there are extremists who will react violently to this so there needs to be a good reason for doing it.

In my opinion the only reason the people running the magazine published this was to stir up a hornets nest & sell more magazines. If you can come up with another reason I would love to hear it.

If somebody dies along the way then tough.

If ever there was a time to make a point about freedom of speech it’s now! And also, satire works best when it’s relevant to current events. Freedom of speech is under attack. There are calls for the UN to pass a resolution banning everything offensive to Islam. You probably can’t buy this magazine in most muslim majority countries. As for Muslims living in France? Tough. France has it’s laws, and freedom of speech is one of them! I don’t go burning embassies everytime some backward Muslim country imprisons a woman for not covering up! Even though I find that offensive! I’m afraid it’s time to say enough is enough. Did you see the sign at the protests in Australia? “behead those who insult Islam”? F@$k them!

It is simply not logical that any human being would react with violence to these images, they will find them offensive, but there are multiple ways of voicing discontent, violence and killing should never even be considered. Perhaps the publishers are highlighting how stupid it is that something as frivolous as a cartoon in a privately-run satire magazine that no one outside of France will have ever heard of can cause increased security at French embassies around the world because of a risk of violence and / or murder. I would have expected more uproar when the niqab was banned in public in France, but no, cartoons are worse. There has been a disturbing rise over the last 20 years in particular of this type of mob reactive violence by Muslims, and we in democratic (pinch of salt at times mind you) countries should not be walking on egg-shells for the rest of our lives due to this threat.

And there you go Paul, showing your true colours. Nice making 1.5 billion people out for morons because of the action of a minority group.
So all Irish are drunk, lazy paddies that do nothing else but boozing and fighting?

Minority? Maybe, but do You hear many “moderate” Muslims condemning the violence? No. And the rare one that does always has a “but”! The rest might not be burning the place down but they don’t seen to thinks it’s so wrong either!

Mark, I wasn’t aware I was hiding my ‘true colours’ at any point. I think religion is idiotic and anyone who possess functioning critical thinking abilities and believes such rubbish is indeed a moron. And those that kill in the name of religion are dangerous morons who need to be challenged and stopped in their tracks. Now to your second ludicrous assumption about the Irish stereotype…..what? Bit of a leap there from denigrating my opinion that a religious belief that depicting an image of a makey uppy god should result in death (and that is exactly what true Islam believes…none of this wishy washy a la carte sanitised religious dross that we are fed in the west) to a negative stereotype about a country that was largely dreamt up to justify colonial exploitation in the past.

Gearoid, that I untrue, moderate Muslim organisations often issue statements condemning violence. Even Egypts new PM, Muslim Brotherhood, condemned the violence in Egypt and other nations.
In this article it states that the French Muslim Council told people NOT to get provoked. I take that as a clear signal they don’t want violence.

But I guess you missed that bit…

I don’t disagree with what you are saying but my original point was not about the extremists but about the motivation behind the cartoons in the first place
I believe they were printed for commercial reasons, to turn a buck & to hell with the consequences, which in all likelihood someone else will end up paying.
Not for one minute do I condone the violence but with rights such as free speech come responsibilities & it behoves us all to remember that.

Yeah cos Egypt’s PM represents the majority of Muslims? Anyway, condemning the violence is cancelled out when they apologize or make excuses for it. Don’t know about the particular examples you mentioned (French counsel deeply shocked, don’t rise to provocation? That’s not condemning the violence!) but any amount of Muslim representatives interviewed over the last few days on TV an in papers always have a ‘but’! Like condemning a rape then adding ‘but she shouldn’t have dressed like that/drank so much/been out alone’

Paul
Your attitude is not that different from the attitude of the Muslim extremists.
Anyone who does not think the way I do is a moron you say with reference to people with religious beliefs which is about as bigoted as anything I have heard them come out with
As for your assertion that freedom of speech is sacred and if people have to die along the way then tough, I take it that that excludes yourself, along with your nearest & dearest. Pathetic

All I read from you Gearoid is stereotyping a whole lot of people that not necessarily deserve it.
As I said before, you’re probably one of those lazy paddies that drinks from morning, if awake, till you drop, fighting, puking and pissing on the streets. I mean I’ve seen so many Irish do it and others making fun of it it must be true!

Justin, you really dont get it at all. It is not about people dying for freedom of speech. It is, however, about people killing to limit freedom of speech. The subtly of this difference clearly goes way over your head. I think it is truly pathetic that someone tries to defend the indefensible by pulling the intolerance card. I’m not her biggest fan but Ayaan Hirsi Ali put it best with the following quote – ‘Tolerance of intolerance is cowardice’.

Another thing – If Hebdo just wanted to make a quick buck they would have put some boobs or something on the front page. Publishing these cartoons far transcends commercial considerations.

The magazine in question is a satirical magazine. When they publish their magazine, they’re promising their readers satire. That’s what these pictures are. They’re not particularly graphic or extreme for the sake of it. They’re satirising the situation when one group of extremists believe that they are exempt from the consequences of freedom of speech and they’re satirising the situation where the reaction of the West is to try not to antagonise them. That’s the reason, not because they reckon they’ll make a few more quid from a controversial issue.

Well mark if all it takes for you to draw that conclusion is the fact that I’m Irish and disagree with you that’s fine. I won’t be so offended that I go running amok. But either way I have my own opinions and can and will draw my own conclusions based on the simple and clear fact that Muslims around the world are not unconditionally condemning the violence and that isn’t far from quietly approving.
As for the magazine, it’s a satirical magazine. Makes it’s money from printing satire. Saying it only published the cartoons to make Money is like saying playboy only put in naked women to make a quick buck!

Mark, I think it’s very nasty of you to be mocking Gearoid from behind your keyboard when it’s clearly shown from his avatar that he’s a UN peacekeeper. He’s the one, along with his comrades in the Defence Forces and UN Peace Keeping missions, that could have to combat these types of extremists, e.g. in Lebanon.

that’s the same logic used by hostage takers when they shoot someone after their demands aren’t met. the reasonable response to an affront is a peaceful protest not multiple murder

@Barry, I have full freedom of speech and appear antsy it allows me to say whatever comes up in my mind.
A peacekeeper with a great prejudice. I can only hope his superiors have a wider view.

I don’t deny your freedom of speech, Mark. But thankfully a part of freedom of speech is the right to criticise. I guess that at least we can agree on.

@Mark. Egyptian PM condemns violence while his equivalent of the DPP requests international arrest warrants from InterPol for those who have offended Islam. Now if that’s not a cause for satirical comedy I don’t know what is. Anyone who adds 2 and 2 and consistently comes up with 5 despite all the evidence to the contrary deserves to have their ridiculous beliefs ridiculed.

They have the right to publish it, material such as this is published about other faiths and people. No special treatment for Islam, just because its adherents are willing to kill to silence those who disagree with it.

You do not kill people over cartoons. It is not normal.

It is shocking that people condemn the publisher in this instance.

Yes mark, I am strongly prejudiced against people who show that they are offended by murder and mayhem. I’m also not too keen on people making excuses for them. And I’m not going to change my mind about it. Being critical of the response to this carry on does not make me a bigot. Any more then me being critical of, for example, the nationalist carry on recently in response to the recent marches in the North. There is NEVER an excuse to protest against something that offends you by savage violence. And to be honest, if you really have a problem with me over that I couldn’t give a rats. And if you think I should be impressed because the leader of one country said what ANY reasonable person shouldn’t hesitate to say then you better think again. Excusing this behavior is wrong. Being ambiguous about it, in my opinion, isn’t much better! feel free to continue your personal attacks on me and my character!

@ Jim – ” You do not kill people over cartoons. Its not normal ”

You summarised this whole situation in an easy to read and clear way. Nobody can honestly try disagree with that.

They were right to publish it. We dont have to live by muslim laws just to not offend them, our fear of violent reactions gives more power to their idea that they are right to act this way. A line needs to be drawn where every religion is free to practice as they wish but their beliefs hold no weight in the way countries are run and how people not of their faith can act.

I’m not here to defend any killing or any violence, but what hits me constantly is that horrible generalising and marginalising of such a large group of people.
As soon as this topic arises a lot of people take it as an excuse to bash a whole faith, regardless of where who and what, simply for their believes and customs!
Its that sort if language that ensures that Muslims all around the world feel that they have to defend (verbally) their believes in a daily basis!
And in a situation where the tensions are already high to provoke even further?
Is it that hard nowadays to respect others?
And why do we demand respect an courtesy from others if we can’t deliver this ourselves?

@gearoid; discrimination against an entire group simply because they share the same believes as a minority is bigotry.
I’m not making excuses for that minority, but am standing up for that majority that isn’t extremist.
Something that you, if you truly are a peace keeper, should do!

@ Mark
I don’t see why I should respect their beliefs, apart from the fact that I think it’s all nonsense, a lot of it goes against my values and in fact I find it offensive. I know the Muslim world is made up of numerous cultures and they can’t all be lumped together. And while some practices, such as female genital mutilation aren’t that wide spread, others such as the mistreatment and inequality of women, homophobia and a belief that Islam should be exempt from all forms of criticism is widespread in the Muslim world. And to insist we respect their beliefs does a huge disservice to the people across the Muslim world who are fighting, dying, being tortured and being raped while trying to end these injustices. And ignores the fact that we have had the same struggles, which are still ongoing! I don’t discriminate against them because they belong to any particular group. I’m just not ok with an awful lot of the beliefs and values that are prevalent in most of the Muslim world.

WOW, Mark. The majority in the Middle East is not “moderate” like you claim; do you have family from there? What we label extreme/bigotry/hateful is considered moderate there. To them extremists are Atheists and those who mock, question, or do not submit to Islam when asked. Also Muslims who kill other Muslims would be considered extreme in certain cases. There is no Democracy for non-Muslims in that region for a reason because the people are against it and want an Islamic “Democracy” whatever that means. I am half-Pakistani, Pakistan won’t get rid of its blasphemy laws because of fear of a backlash and many politicians want them to remain. All those who proposed they be just not as severe have been killed; that’s not even saying getting rid of them. You’re cool Mark, ridiculing a UN peacekeeper. You should be so proud.

This whole situation is illustrated wonderfully on the Journal here today, they have an article about a Harvard scholar who found an ancient text saying Jesus may have been married. Some of the comments are enough to give a bishop heart failure. This is in a Western society, Christian, Catholic Ireland, if anyone is to be insulted by this you’d imagine it would be here… yet there’s no riots over it, no violence. Nobody died. We laughed and life went on.
This is a French magazine, not commonly printed or distributed in muslim countries I’d imagine, so they have every right to produce their own comedy and satire in their own country. The only reason there would be a fear not to do so, to publish any comedy or satire about a muslim subject matter is the fear of a violent backlash. Lets call a spade here, most publications have always followed the rule that “any press is good press” and if they published something that a group protested about, peacefully, the normal way, it’d be welcome. The current situation is to fear publishing anything, critical or satirical about Islam in the West for fear of a vilent attack originating in the Middle East. All over the world muslims have killed or threated to kill authors who have published anything they don’t like, the most high profile of which may be Salman Rushdie who had a death threat placed on him after writing The Satanic Verses in 1988, it still exists. This week an iranian foundation reportedly increased the reward for his death to $3.3 million. As Salman Rushdie said;
“The only way of living in a free society is to feel that you have the right to say and do stuff.”

…cliche’ after cliche’…

You’re a troll Richard, your opinion wavers from story to story. Last time you were saying it was all America’s fault now you’re suddenly anti-Islam

Because the freedom to be able to say what you want is worth every penny. If that was the Pope instead of Mohammed and the Catholics had just bombed the French embassy and murdered the ambassador, do you think we’d be appealing for calm so as not to upset the Catholics further? No, we’d be blaming those people who are deluded enough to murder innocents in pursuit of their own twisted ideologies.

With freedom speech comes the responsibility to use it wisely and not deliberately make proactive statements that will goad others into murdering innocents.

* Freedom of Speech.

I’d blame my i phone for the typo if I had one.

Kerry, so the responsibility for the killing of Westeners lies with the cartoonist and not the perpetrator? I think you have it all backwards. Why do we feel the need to keep condoning the actions of these thugs simply because we have ‘offended’ them?

Did I say I condone the actions of some thugs? What I said is there is a responsibility on those who value the Freedom of Speech to use it wisely and not use it to provoke others unnecessarily .

Can you tell me what good will come of publishing pictures that will provoke others? Are they making a political point? Making a protest? Why do it, having seen the reaction it can cause. Does it improve the cause for Freedom of Speech in anyway?

No Kerry, with freedom of speech comes the the freedom to say what you please. What happens when one religion is protected from that freedom? Does it become unacceptable to offend other religions? Does it become unacceptable to offend a government or individuals?

You either have freedom or you don’t. Having the self-censor in case some demented ideologue uses what you’ve said to justify their desire to destroy and murder isn’t freedom.

It because some people go out of their way to provoke them as if they are trying to get a violent response.
I just don’t understand why you would do that.

Justin, you do it to assert your right to freedom of speech, which many of us take for granted.

I believe in the freedom of speech as much as the next man, but not to the extent that I would say something provocative just to get a rise out of a dangerous lunatic who i suspect will make some other poor innocent pay the price. That’s just irresponsible cowardliness.

If I want to make a bold stand for freedom of speech then what I should do is go to a mosque & pin the cartoons to the door & take the consequences myself. That I would admire.

No, do you know’s responsible for that? The lunatic; not the publisher.

But Kevin if you know he is a lunatic, why goad him?

If you begin to tread lightly around extremists when they commit acts of violence you are sending the message that violence works; keep doing it and you’ll get what you want.

If I give matches and a drum of petrol to an lunatic arsonist am I off the hook then?

No you’re not Derek. But if you tell him where he can obtain them you are.
Freedom of speech is not the same as freedom of actions.

Derek, of course you would, and so would the person who made the matches in the first place. Matches are available to everybody, doesn’t make us all arsonists.

Erm, Muslims aren’t a race. Sorry, just thought I’d point that out.

Well the vast majority are a different colour skin but u call it what u like. If u fall for this crap u ain’t no different than the muslim fanatics. Can people not see where this is heading, i don’t think it would be a postive conclusion no matter where u live in the world.

Where is the racism?

Good man Derek, call people racist for not going along with your appeasement plan

Racist meaning that they are opposed to the freedom of speech and expression being curtailed because some Muslims are getting angry and violent around the world over a film and now most likely over a drawing.

Cop on to yourself and stop being so sensitive. Nobody is suggesting ALL Muslims are like this. Any people I know who happen to be Muslim have lapsed in their faith and as equally pissed off about this as I am. If the sky fairy these nut jobs believe in is so powerful, surely it could do some smiting of its own without their help.

…yet another Monty Python film script…

Maybe you can clarify your position? It almost sounds like you are saying that the riots and violence are on par with the drawing of a picture or making of a film. Sure, its fine if Muslims want to protest, they are completely entitled to (at least in the West) but rioting over a silly film or picture. That is never acceptable.

Imran the reaction as you call it involved killing & distruction of property. I as an atheist constantly attack the catholic church in Ireland & creationist teachings in the US & other organised religions for their racist & homophobic policies & the enslaving of childrens minds with fear. So muslims dont have special treatment by any means. However a lot of muslims are peace loving & respectful like most christians & jews but when any of them try to take away my rights because of their supernatural fairy tales then be prepared to be offended.

Its their country,with their arts,beliefs and freedoms.They can do what they like,albeit at home.Why should some innocent on the other side of the world be burned or shot or beheaded because of a picture?To be honest,I think anybody with your extremist views should be sent to downtown Karachi to live amongst the vermin there,who wait with bated breath for the next imagined assault on their absurd religious views.Westerners are too tolerant in the first place,to actually put up with your little fiasco.The Israelis have the right of it.

You seem to be trying to be sarcastic, but you’ve hit the nail on the head. Lets not forget that there was an art exhibition (in the US?) last year that put the crucifix and a picture of virgin Mary in a jar or urine. I didn’t see too many beheadings and destruction because of that. and that’s potentially way more inflammatory than a silly caricature.

@Imran That is more or less correct. However, it is a total understatement to say that the extremists are reacting. They are clearly, over reacting, in a very childish and self defeating way. So the question any self respecting Muslim should be asking is, what positive thing are we achieving here in the name of Islam? The answer you know is you are achieving NOTHING. Why is the silence from the Islamic leadership (Muslim clerics, community leaders, Political leaders) so deafening? Will people’s prejudices of Islam be improved? I think not.
I know there are many people in the Islamic community who work hard to show the positive sides of Islam, of which there are many. I am afraid their work is in vain because what most people now think is, perhaps this is the true face of a medieval religion struggling to fit into the modern world, where it has no place. So should we in the West change our world to accommodate Islam? Freedom loving people that we are, we can certainly go some of that way. But if you think that is carte blanche to impose your beliefs on us. I am afraid you are very much mistaken.

Every person should have the right to peaceful protest and everyone should have the right to freedom of expression no matter who or what it offends.
Real good manners and tolerance can never be enforced it’s always voluntary.

Further still….students of communication media studies learn…not a word is written/printed …picture taken…film …play ..published/broadcast..in short whatever be cast into the public domain…without agenda…..please do not dismiss the fact…our salvation in the face of those who wish to engineer the way we think….depends upon our awareness…there feel better for that ….think man think!!.