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Dublin: 7 °C Thursday 23 May, 2013

Department “neither consulted nor informed” on council grant request

Clare County Council has said that it will prioritise grant payments to people who have paid the Household Charge, a move which has been condemned by the Union of Students in Ireland.

THE DEPARTMENT OF Education and Skills has said it “was neither consulted nor informed of” the move by Clare County Council to ask grant holders to prove they have paid the household charge.

The news comes as Socialist Party/ULA TD for Dublin West, Joe Higgins, said he is seeking a debate in the Dáil today on the council’s decision to prioritise the payment of grants to people who have paid the household charge.

Deputy Higgins said:

This morning I have applied to the Ceann Comhairle for a topical issue debate this afternoon on the Dáil on this outrageous development. I want to put it directly to Minister Quinn that the vast majority of third level students are not homeowners and therefore have no personal liability for the household tax.

Department of Education

The Irish Times reports that Education Minister Ruairi Quinn described the action of a council asking grant applicants for proof of paying the household charge as “reasonable”.

It said that South Tipperary County Council has also asked for evidence of household charge payment in advance of the grant being paid.

The Department of Education and Skills, meanwhile, told TheJournal.ie it was:

neither consulted nor informed of this move by Clare County Council.

It explained that there are 66 grant awarding authorities who administer student grants on behalf of the department, including both local authorities and VECs.

These 66 authorities process grants to existing grant holders; this is because as of this year, Student Universal Services Ireland or SUSI is now the single grant awarding authority for all students. All new applicants for a student grant now apply for their grants on-line through SUSI.

The grant-awarding bodies do not receive an administration fee for processing student grants. However, the grant moneys are paid in advance to these organisations by the Department.

The Student Support Act 2011 does not provide for withholding of the payment of a student grant on foot of non-payment of the household charge.

Clare County Council

Clare County Council said that assessment and processing of Higher Education Grants is done at a cost. It said these include IT, staff, and processing costs.

The Household Charge was introduced to cover the cost of providing local services such as the assessing and processing grants, for which there is no charge to the customer in terms of a grant application fee.

The Council said it is its policy:

to ensure that benefactors of services such as Higher Education Grants pay the Household Charge as required by law under the Local Government (Household Charge) Act 2011 / Local Government (Household charge) Regulations 2012.

The council said that “while any delay in relation to the processing of grant payments is regretted, early payment of the charge will ensure no unnecessary delay in the payment of grants”.

The council has not made a decision yet in relation to applicants that have not paid the Household Charge, beyond saying that applications from those who have paid the charge are being prioritised in relation to the processing of payments. It added that it has “not at any stage indicated that grant payments will be withheld from applicants that have not paid the Household Charge.”

Union of Students

The Union of Students in Ireland has severely criticised Clare County Council’s decision, saying that young people “must not be penalised for their parents’ decisions”.

USI President John Logue said that the action “must be condemned in the strongest terms”.

He added:

If the councillors do not come out against this measure then USI will mobilise its membership and we will protest until the council backs down. If other councils follow the example of Clare, then they too will see protests. Students will not accept this.”

The Local Government Management Agency, which is responsible for collecting the charge, has said that in total, it is estimated that 1,045, 499 households in Ireland have registered for the Household Charge. It has received €103, 525, 581 in total from paid registrations.

Read: Householders ‘continuing to pay charge in significant numbers’, says agency head>

Read: Household charge: Second batch of reminder letters set to be issued>

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Comments (69 Comments)

  • Sharrow 18/09/12 #

    This is nothing new, co councils out side of Dublin have done this going back to the early 90s, any house hold which was not up to date with the refuse charges then the maintenance grant to the 3rd level student was with held until it was paid up.

    Reply
  • Dear Mr Quinn It is also reasonable to ask TD’s if they are Tax Compliant before they receive their next months salary/expenses/research grants.

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  • @Colum 18/09/12 #

    do they demand to see car tax also?

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  • If you are renting a house and your landlord has not paid the property tax, does that mean that you are inelligible for a third level education grant? Now THAT would be unfair.

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    • I do not know the answer to your question ,BUT , it is all unfair . Those of us who struggled to get a deposit , get a mortgage and then pay that mortgage, pay stamp duties, then tax on the interest etc etc….. are being demonised and criminalised as are our innocent children ,because we will not be downtrodden or forced into further poverty by paying this ‘unfair ,unjust and immoral tax on the home’ Some one said this a few years ago now just who was it ? . Not another cent = another LIE !

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  • i’m sorry… But to me it is clearly obvious…. Pay your taxes and then get benefits….. If you are unhappy with how your tax money is being spent then as a people stand up and demand yearly accounting of how local and national governments spend money.

    As a fairly new member of this country, I’m amazed that there is no publicly published itemized accounting of incomings and outgoings of money backed-up by an unbiased accounting firm. Truly, I believe that this would be a solution to many of our national\local debates and problems. The public has a right to know!

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    • Marlon
      Do you pay any taxes here ? Or are you one of the many thousands of immigrants who have arrived here for the free lunch ? I am genuinely curious . I have worked all my life , I have NEVER received Social Welfare except childrenss allowance , but there are many here who are here for the free housing , fuel , food allowances, back to school allowances, socialising allowance, etc etc because once you are in the system you can avail of it all. but when you pay taxes as I have always done you must pay for everything .

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    • Hi Eileen,

      I hope you are well and understand your curiosity. I am college educated several times over and bring a wealth of experience a nd knowledge to Ireland. I also believe that I add value to this country. Some years ago I made the decision to move from my homeland of America to Ireland. Overall, I’ve been very happy with my decision and have few regrets. However, to your point… I am here legally and has always been. I took a reduction in pay to move here and must pay taxes to the US and to Ireland (Ireland is my main residence). As a result, I have very little money in my pocket and in the bank. Regardless, I am happy…

      But then again, I do become very annoyed when I see “OUR” politicians, business leaders and some individuals of the general public do whatever they can to manipulate the system to selfishly get more for themselves. Is this what “You” call being a Patriot? Is this what you consider having this country’s best interest in mind? Remember it was stated at Charlie Haughey’s funeral that he was a patriot… Yet he robbed this country blind….

      Eileen…. Have you payed your household charges? I

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    • Thank you for your reply .
      No Marlon I have not Nor will I ever pay That Household charge , It is an immoral unjust and unfair tax on the home . I have however paid stamp duty, my mortgage , my tv license, my bin charges , my water taxes ( Before they were abolished several years ago IN fingal) my car tax ,and PRSI, USC, Income levy etc …. So again NO I have not nor will I pay that tax. It is wrong ! and All unfair laws must be opposed by good people . I am good people.You are welcome !

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    • I agree Marlon. Accountability is sadly lacking here.

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    • Eileen, I understand your opposition to the Household Charge. However, this type of action is civil disobedience and unjust to your fellow countrymen. This thing of quite disapproval by not obeying the law is ridiculous. If you and others like you disapprove of laws, taxes or politicians…. Stand up and band together and vocally and loudly make your point and don’t except crap.

      It appears that most Irish folks prefers to whing instead of holding people publicly accountable. Thus nothing ever changes.

      The infrastructure, the Irish landscape really must change and courage is need to make it happen.

      So your act does nothing but punish those people who are law abidding.

      Reply
    • Marlon
      As a foreign National I can not expect you to understand that this is exactly what we are doing . YES it is civil disobedience and YES I am asking people to band together and develope a back bone and tell the traitorous politicians that I regrettably voted into power and government , to get their act together . You as an American immigrant have very little idea of our Irish Pride . and I will tell you Marlon I am not feeling very proud of the Irish government policies today or for the past twelve months . Marlon as I said before , you are welcome But dare I say …Mind your own business ..
      Christopher Gardiner …..What are you accountable for ? What do you stand for ? Or do you always follow your leader up and down the mountain ?
      Like I have often said before ,If you do not Stand for anything ,YOU WILL fall for anything . Now I have college students in my house and I will FIGHT to the last for their rights.The rights that I HAVE worked and paid for all the years since I was 17 . I will not be bullied .

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    • Carol Mc 18/09/12 #

      Eileen,
      It is as much Marlon’s business as it is yours. He is contributing to our economy the same as you. He is asking us to band together and get the country moving forward, the same as you. His points were all completely valid and for somebody who is preaching about ‘Irish Pride’, your Cead Mile Failte is sadly lacking.

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    • @ Eileen – Marlon is a foreign national who has spent a reasonable amount of time living in this country. So on what basis do you make the claim that he’s not able to understand what is happening in this country? What is he lacking; intellect, awareness, or is it to do with his genes? Please tell….

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    • That is what I want .Is for people , good ,strong , honest people to get together and tell this shower of idiots in government where to go…..I do not expect anyone so new to ‘our ways’ to be so well versed in what is really happening , but come along by all means to your local Campaign against the house hold charge and water tax meeting and your eyes will be opened to the real reasons people are objecting to the payment . This government are cowards and we need strong people to take up the slack .
      Marlon: please check out this web site , make a call and come to your local meeting . http://nohouseholdtax.org/ You will be very welcome .

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    • @ Eileen – And what are “our ways”? Please don’t go all “Wicker Man” on us.

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    • Shame on you John Conniffe . But you go ahead and insinuate what you like , that is a right wing tactic to deflect from the issues at hand .
      Marlon , Please accept my invitation to attend one of the many nationwide meetings against the hhc and I am sure you will find it interesting and informal.

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    • @ Eileen – Shame on me? All I did was ask you two questions, one following on from the other, neither of which you’ve clearly answered. Interesting that you make assumptions about my politics. Unfortunately, I’m a socialist. That’s a left-wing position. It is also a position that advocates just taxation and putting the wealth of the nation into the hands of the state, not away from the state into private control. Rejecting the state and advocating non-payment of taxes would be a right-wing libertarian position, not a left-wing position. Your politics are confusing and your use of phrases such as “fresh off the boat” and “our ways” are slightly worrying. That is what I am saying, nothing more, no altering motives or dark implications. If you can’t debate without histrionics then it might be best to let someone else be a spokesperson for the anti-Household Charge and Water Rates campaign. Support is own by respecting your opponents.

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    • Eileen… As a foreign national who pay my taxes… I will not mind my own business…. Because matters of the state are my business.

      Furthermore… I do understand many things that are Irish. I may not speak Irish, I may not have been born on this land and I don’t blend in. However, I understand injustice, I understand oppression, I understand racism, I’ve been spat on, threaten and attacked. I know what it is to fear for my life and fear my supposed protectors. I know what it is to have to work twice as hard to get an education and to bite my tongue as I was looked over for promotions. But one thingtruly know is how to survive and fight for my rights. I don’t need to use an excuse to see a cause and fight for it….

      The matter of truth is you didn’t pay your House Charge…. Therefore your voice is irrelevant. Your voice would be stronger if you didn’t bide behind none payment of taxes or fees that benefit individuals of this nation.

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    • Marlon
      Glancing over your reply , I do not accept what you say at all . It is true I have not , nor will I ever pay this ‘unfair , unjust and immoral tax on the home’. (Enda Kenny said this in 1994 ) It is also true that I too” understand injustice, I understand oppression, I understand racism, I’ve been spat on, threaten and attacked ”. And I have always lived in Dublin ! I ” know what it is to have to work twice as hard to get an education and to bite my tongue as I was looked over for promotions” and I was a public servant !I too ” know (is ) how to survive and fight for my rights” and the thing is Marlon it is my constitutional right AND duty as a member of an open and ( seemingly) just society to OPPOSE this ”unfair , unjust and immoral tax on my home.”
      I do not take my decision lightly as is suggested by many commentators on sites like this and in the media. My voice is very RELEVANT and I will not be told to stop using my voice by you sir or any body else . I exercised my constitutional right to vote in the General election last year and gave my number one and two votes to FG and Labour . And it is still my constitutional right to object to a bad law , through civil disobedience and public consent …The invitation still remains open to you and anyone else to attend any meetings in your area for the C A H WT . I look forward to seeing lots of new and very relevant people attending , they will be most welcome .
      Marlon , I would like to know as you yourself brought up the relevance of my voice ….. Do you have the right to vote here ? The reason I ask is that I just do not know if you would have that constitutional right as a foreign national , living here ! Every day is a schoolday , and questions are the key to learning…. By the way that right to vote sir ,has nothing to do with paying taxes just or other wise .
      By the way Marlon , I have always paid my taxes and still do .MY voice is VERY RELEVANT and I take very strong exception to anyone telling me otherwise . But Marlon ”have a nice day !”

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    • John Conniffe
      I did not use that expression ”fresh off the boat ” retract your comment as it is inciteful.
      You can declare yourself to be what ever you are John , but your actions or lack of them will speak for themselves, unless you follow ahem Labour the ‘left’ party. I am not left wing , I just dislike double talk and injustices. Like I said if you do not stand for something you will fall for any thing . Your insinuations are very sad ! I am angry upset but certainly not ”histrionic”

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    • Eilen – thank you for the compliment. I’m glad you found my comment insightful. To clarify; the word “inciteful” from the verb “incite” does not exist. The word “insightful” from the noun “insight” does exist. Please don’t use words which you don’t know the correct meaning of, it’s a little like watching a cat play chess.
      As your my comment, I was paraphrasing, not directly quoting. Your earlier posts can be at best seen to be ill-thought out, at worst as bigotry thinly veiled in a currently popular social issue. I don’t like bigotry, I don’t like bullying, and I don’t like pretensions of entitlement purely because someone has lived somewhere other than Dublin. I will not retract my comment, I stand by it completely. You have the right to request that my comment be removed, and if the moderator finds your complaint to be valid, then it will be. That said, this comment thread is quite stale by this stage, so I don’t understand your persistence at flogging a dead horse and digging yourself further into your pit.

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    • You are very wrong , foolish and accusatory . The double quotation marks YOU used denotes direct quotation . Learn to use your quotation marks correctly. Again I did not say those words .Retract your comments . I have not used thinly veiled comments nor am I bigotted . I am not blind and the other commentator said that he is a foreign national . What are YOU implying ?

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    • Eileen – I did not imply that your comments could be taken as bigoted.I overtly stated that your comments could be taken as being bigoted. Again, if you choose to use certain words, please make sure you understand their meaning. Again, I see no reason to retract my statement as I believe it was correct and I stand by it. If you can link to a reputable and object source which states that inverted commas are reserved solely for denoting a direct quotation, I’ll happily concede that point.

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  • how does the household charge work in conjunction with development charges? It seems like a double charge to me – here is an extract from planning permission granted by a council:

    The developer shall pay the sum of €x,xxx (updated at the time of payment in accordance with changes in the Wholesale Price Index – Building and Construction (Capital Goods), published by the Central Statistics Office) to the Planning Authority as a contribution towards expenditure that was and /or is proposed to be incurred by the Planning Authority in respect of public infrastructure and facilities benefiting development in the area of the Authority, as provided for the Contributions Scheme for County made by the Council.

    I gather the amount varies from county to county but the charge appears to be for the same purpose as the household charge?

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  • Cut out the councillers bonuses and we would consider paying. I’m shocked that over 50% have paid up while these chancers take bonuses. Hold of people!! Demand Change, gain change, then co operate.

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  • Students should not be held accountable for the household budgetary decisions taken by their parents. This is bullying plain and simple. I see that they stop short of stating the consequences of non payment of said household charge as to do so would be treading on very fragile legal ground, i’d imagine. Few months ago it was street lights in areas of Cork with high instances of non-payment, now this. Its absolutely sickening.

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  • alan 18/09/12 #

    demise of the labour party in progress. interesting to see how it is achieved( in a car crash kind of way). but shocking to see how easily they are being dealt with by FG

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  • Yeah right !
    I would take their statements of denial with a grain of salt .
    It is a bullying tactic and the council managers are well reimbursed and paid to do as they are told …..
    This is just my simple opinion and I am speaking from a very hurt and upset view point . I have always paid my taxes . People who have never contributed are entitled to everything ! This is an unfair and unjust tax. I will NOT PAY IT.

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    • I agree Eileen. I worked and paid also but some people commenting here are trying to make us out to be sponges or some kind of “bad” citizen by not paying this unfair charge. This tactic will not work. We are respectable people also who REFUSE to pay UNJUST taxes.

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    • I am so upset at being labelled for not paying this unjust tax . I have worked and paid all my taxes since I was 17 . I never went to college because we could not afford to . I have my children and I am so proud that my two eldest have their college degrees and qualifications . I earned good money without the help of their errant ”father” and they got thru college without grants . They also had part time jobs ….. Now I am retired . My third child got his place in Uni and we applied for this grant , there are no part time jobs …. I will eat beans on toast for ever more if I have to, but I WILL NOT PAY that HHC. How dare they hold us to ransom.

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    • Hear, hear Eileen, If you don’t want to pay that tax, good for you.

      Similarly, I don’t walk the streets at night so why should I pay for lighting? I don’t drive, so I don’t see why I should pay for someone to paint white lines on the road. I haven’t availed of any medical service recently so I’m going to stop paying my contribution to hospitals. See where I’m going with this?

      Whether it’s fair or not, it is a law. Do people like you think that this ‘oh so wonderful’ country runs on fresh air? All of the above are unfair to me. Maybe I should all adopt your logic!

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    • Aoife Barry 18/09/12 #

      Hi folks, just a friendly reminder to keep things, well, friendly on here and not to get involved in arguments etc.
      Thanks
      Aoife

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    • Aoife Barry 18/09/12 #

      Colm and Eileen – please read my comment above. I appreciate you both disagree but name-calling etc really isn’t on.
      Aoife

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    • Aoife ,
      Can you remind me please what names i was calling anyone ?
      I will play fair but be just , What names did I call anyone ? Remind me please . by private mail if you must

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  • This is a classical right wing government tactic. Make college unaffordable or inaccessible for families with no money, freeing up places for lower achieving kids from well heeled families.

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    • Correct me if I’m wrong but aren’t all those in social housing – the ones with the least money theoretically, exempt from the Household Charge, and therefore safe from this scare tactic?

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    • Jason
      What about the rest of us ?

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    • Oh I don’t mean for a minute to suggest support for this ridiculous idea. I think its deplorable that money that goes towards supporting a student is withheld because their parents either object to paying, or are unable to pay the Household Charge. But i think its somewhat simplistic to say “inaccessible for families with no money” – those at the very bottom of the ladder are exempt. That was all my point was.

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    • Jason
      Thanks for the clarity, I liked your comment now as I agree with you .

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    • Its the councils only route to get the tax as its pretty much the only thing they give out, they dont do refuse anymore, i’m stuggling to see what any of them do. I wouldn’t agree at it being a right wing tactic werejammin. Its collecting a property (household) tax off an already over bourdend paying population. While Giving that tax to an insane amount of concils in comparison to our population. Councils that are bloated and under utilised. This money will go to pay for these councils which provide very few services for the majority of the population. Most of their focus now being on social housing. and planning (great job their doing there).
      Fix the council system first, merge them, eliminate offices and staff. Then give us a list of what services these councils provide and what are the costs of these services, listed and detailed. Its our money we have a right to know. Then and only then should they have to the cheek to mention anything about property tax.

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  • This in effect is demonizing those who cannot afford to pay the household charge and also criminalizing them. It is a blatant attack on vulnerable people and now Clare Co. Council have taken it on themselves to be judge and jury and punish students.

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  • This is so sickening and aiding the widening gap between the wealthy and the average-paid/poor of this country. Scare-mongering and bullying tactics are how those fools in Dail Eireann have already gotten the Household Charge out of those who refuse to stand against corruption. Students will absolutely not stand for this!

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  • they are out of control trying to get money, they should start at home, with their own pensions, phones, hotel rooms, dry cleaning bills,,,, i have worked all my life lost my job 2 years ago, did a course, they stopped hiring in the hse, so that was money down the drain, looked for any job,, will even clean windows, nothing,,,i have 2 kids, a mortgage, mortgage insurance, house insurance, behind with my mortgage, and starving, where do they expect me to come up with taxes, if my kids don’t go to college, do they go on dole line,,, as one can do nothing without a college degree in any country, why do they keep punishing people who paid taxes all our lives and are struggling, my phone cut off, my elec i am struggling to keep on, does anyone up in the dail care anymore about the people of Ireland, how come trocha have not hit them with cuts, why only the common man

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  • For years as parents we have been held responsible for the behaviours of our children and finally the shoe is on the other foot and as a law abiding taxpayer I am delighted to see this move by the Local Authorities. Joe Higgins is predictable in his demands today as for years he has never believed in everyone paying their way. He lives in a magical thought kingdom where everyone is entitled to something and it’s always at someone else’s expense. The someone else is always the guy or the girl who go out and make it happen rather than sitting back and expecting everyone else to work.
    The idea that this leech is earning over two hundred thousand a year at my expense and breaking the law on taxes while inciting everyone else to do the same should debar him from holding office.

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    • I’m no Higgins fan, far from it. But after all the funding being spent on wasteful items and bonuses going to power hungry councillers, I cannot pay this tax. As a parent, I hope my child will ask me in years coming if I done anything to stop the madness & hopefully I will be able to say I didnt do much but recognised a farcical, unfiar charge when I saw it. When councillers stop lining their pockets with this money (which you paid), I’ll gladly co operate. Until then, I’m one of the 40 or % who are braving this out and awating the letters (which I have not received yet).

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    • the whole idea of the household charge is wrong and to punish the children of people who cant afford to pay it is rediculous

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    • ” I am delighted to see this move” . How can anyone be “delighted” about this. Get a life and leave the students alone.

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    • Some of these students if they get their grants will be nursing you in your old age
      I hope they remember what you posted

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    • “For years as parents we have been held responsible for the behaviours of our children” Of course you have! They’re minors! You raised them! Their actions are reflective of your performance as a parent! If they don’t go to school it’s your fault because you are required by law to send them to school. If they’re starving it’s your fault because you are required by law to care for them.

      I don’t have words for how utterly nonsensical it is to claim that children should be held responsible for the actions of their parents. If an adult starves are you to blame their ten year old? No!

      Even the words of the council as described above are irrelevant. They claim they have a responsibility to ensure that the benefactors of the grant are upholding the law, well, since probably about 0.0001% of students are liable to pay a household charge, I’d say they are upholding the law. The grant is for the students, not the parents, it’s bloody ridiculous.

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    • Your point about Higgins is fair enough! But the point is that some people genuinely cannot afford the household tax, and asking their children, who are struggling to pay for college, to suffer for this is unfair!

      Reply
  • The household charge is 100euro if I recall, there maybe a late charge for those who didn’t pay on time. (rightly so). If you are applying for any grant, it should be mandatory that a check be done to make sure you are fully paid up. If you have an outstanding phone bill, you cannot upgrade to the iPhone5 until it is cleared.Same thing here – rightly so.
    We are all being taxed to the hilt – welcome to the bereavement of The Celtic Tiger.
    Good on Clare – leading the way.

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  • Be interesting to see how this unfolds.

    I hope there is genuine fairness maintained; that those withholding payment of their household charge had no economic basis to do so (other than to save money and let their fellow citizens shoulder the cost). Now the time has come to fork over the money, rather than seek a grant, also funded by their fellow citizens.

    If there are truly cases where the household could not afford it (one household charge away from the breadline) then those families should be protected.

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  • Sure if people don’t pay their taxes how do they expect to get their grant.!

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  • everything is fine and wonderfull in this country and its lovely !

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  • hey ! my comment was censored ! yippee ! whats the point of this comment page then !!! wheee !

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  • If Mick Collins and his supporters lost their jobs, had to care for a relative on fixed allowance from state and lost job opportunity, career ,education and pension, I wonder would they be so smart and high and mighty,

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  • May I add, having a business paying wages, overheads, taxes prsi was not a pleasant experience for the family. Sold and paid everyone including the bank, then you are left with nothing but a tax bill. Wages inflating costs inflating, you have seen nothing yet I can tell you.

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  • I never thought it was possible for Public or Civil servants to decide government Policy, I am sure the E.U. paymasters would be very interested to hear, having signed our budgetary powers to same. A Departmental edict would be required. I suppose that’s the form of government we are going to get. If you get my drift.

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  • It’s insufferable to see a person being attacked for her position on Charges. Rates were in place in the past, VAT was kept high in it’s place. In America there are charges but no Sales (VAT) tax. Tax twice over I don’t think so. Holier than thou comments, get off the stage.

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