Anthony,

“It’s a disgraceful comment to ask a junior doctor if its for the money.” C’mon…

So, I assume you want to stay in the public system for good, right? I applaud you then… Peace?

I come from the US and yes, you’re right, if a person doesn’t have an insurance, s/he is seriously ****ed (we’ll see how the whole Obamacare will turn out – I’m not too optimistic though)… As for the doctors, not all of them are doing that great in the US – as I mentioned before, the insurance companies are squeezing their margins (since the whole system is for profit)… Also, private drs should have liability insurance, etc. – it’s not all that cheap… It used to be good to be a Dr in the US, it’s not necessarily true anymore… (however, it’s still good to be a consultant here in Ireland – in my experience, most of them charge a premium and prefer dealings in cash; wouldn’t even take credit cards – I wonder why ;)

I agree with you that 30K compensation for a Dr is a joke (isn’t even “industrial wage” higher than that?!)… What I tried to say was that the whole medical system needed a total overhaul here in Ireland IMHO… HSE is a joke – just an additional level of bureaucracy sucking money out of the system… The duality of the system should be addressed – it’s ridiculous that it would take months to see a consultant in the public setting but if you are willing to go via private channel, you can see the SAME consultant almost immediately (IMHO, one should either working publicly – exclusively or have a private practice – exclusively)… Medical insurance in Ireland is what you may call a catastrophic events insurance – even the best insurance policy is a joke, not covering most of preventive care, has a 5 year wait for pre-existing condition and lately even the coverage of “catastrophic events” is getting reduced (when one has a decent insurance policy in the US, it is so much better than any insurance in Ireland – no comparison)… So, everything becomes an out of pocket expense… Why so many things in Ireland have to be half-assed?!

And gardai

And firemen

Are you for real ? The agreement will be passed. google the process. Anyway they cannot go on strike as that would breach Croke Park 1. Get real, Mary

Croke park 1 has already been breached, voting no to this is the only way, the gov are going to have to back to the drawing board.

Because they won’t be able to afford to strike. That’s how. A good way to break a union. They are paid ok. They have jobs. Lots don’t. Suck it up for a few years.

And credibility!

But just make sure I’m good and healthy before you strike please! We should value our Doctors and Nurses – we will all need them sooner or later.

Yeah – coz striking is working for the Spanish and Greeks – muppets

paul Lanigan, please expand on how t s working for the Spaniards and Greeks, that would be worth hearing.

I think Paul may be being a tad sarcastic. Correct me if I’m wrong, Paul.

Why don’t they just all head off to Australia? We can then replace them with proper doctors, who help sick people because they want to.

News flash Rodrigo, they already are – only problem is that there ain’t no foreign doctors coming in to take their jobs – why would you bother when you can go anywhere else and be treated like, well, human!

You can have those ‘proper’ doctors Rodrigo. Like the one who tried to take a patient’s pulse from the back of their hand.

Hi Catherine, it was actually what I was referring to – correct! I don’t think though that either the IMO or the INMO would ever go on all out strike, I would imagine that it would be better for the public to see us doing our jobs, instead if all the rubbish foisted on us, and then see what it is that we do on a regular day to day basis that is not our job!
See you on a picket line somewhere, sometime soon – *wishful thinking*.

Which has absolutely nothing to do with doctors’ working hours.

Yeah everyone’s delighted with that payout. Why don’t you keep quiet.

Absolutely nothing to do with this PG, the payout was given from cash in the savings, which was garnered from subs etc., stick to the point!

But that pension pot does raise questions about IMO’s crediblity.

And the NCHD’s who earn over €100k in overtime ?

What about them Rory? Do you know what the sad thing about that is? If the HSE were paying for all the hours worked you may be damned certain that that figure should be higher! It’s not like they’re getting paid for nothing you know, they work for the HSE after all.

NCHD’s and consultants have taken anything from a 30% hit, their wallets have already been raided, this is to stop further raids. You should ask an NCHD what their working conditions are like currently. It’s a bit rich for their employer to be reducing their pay, when NCHD’s have already made numerous submissions as to how to reduce the bill without touching core pay. Although, the same can be said for all of the front line services, sure we’ve been shouting from the rooftops about change for generations! One day… One day…

The government have repeatedly reneged on terms and conditions offered to doctors to the extent that nobody has any faith in the system. If Ireland is to have doctors of a calibre suited to not only treating patients to the highest level, but also capable of training the next generation of doctors, this government,…and some armchair commentators…, would want to wake up fast. Irish doctors are highly respected internationally and much sought after. Why would they settle for the worst working conditions in the English speaking world?

Aaron , because most of then do not speak English.

Exactly, Rory. Because the HSE has stooped to “recruiting” doctors from the developing world, where they are most needed. These guys soon return home bitterly disappointed because they are not sufficiently trained to progress through the Irish system, which has quite high standards…. as it should.

@James – our conditions are crap.

Currently on my second 30hr shift of the week.

Anyone who thinks we should be paid less or work more is very welcome to shadow a doctor in their nearest hospital. Absolutely guaranteed they won’t be able to hack it.

Do greedy doctors care about patient safety? Time to reflect! Check the salaries of doctors in Germany?

You’d think that, but any strikes I’ve seen have resulted in better care, because staff only do what is required by their contract. I remember one particular strike, we actually had more anaesthetists in ICU than we knew what to do with them! Heavenly so it was!

Yeah there higher in Germany. Besides the international market place for Irish doc’s is Australia, Canada, US and UK. Go compare those salaries. Auf Wiedersehen, and hello to end of in humane working conditions, not being paid for hours worked, resourced training and respect for your work. Last doctor off island, turn off the life support machines

Bit of a generalisation there pal. Just because they’re doctors, they’re all greedy? You clearly have no idea of what it truly means to be a doctor coming out with statements like that. It’s a pretty terrible job, which horrendous conditions and huge responsibility. You never hear of anyone bashing dentists or pharmacists who all cost The State the same to train (or more in the case of Dentists) and who work almost exclusively in Private Practice and earn far in excess of most doctors.

And that’s why they can keep cutting our salaries, because people like you think we should work for peanuts and the sheer joy of seeing someone healthy again. We can’t do a walkout-not-go-to-work strike like other jobs because we still have some decency in us. And for that, we are taken advantage of, and you, kind sir, supports that. No surprise to see you first in line for the vote to attach tracking devices to doctors’s ankles so they never leave the hospital grounds

Eh greedy doctors? I refer you to the ongoing Facebook campaign enough is enough. There are 5000+ NCHDs brainstorming and campaigning for a way to reduce our hours. As we are paid by the hour this will result in a reduction of take home pay. We are also campaigning for the hours we do work to be recognised and paid; fairly reasonable wouldn’t you think that we should be paid for all the hours we do work don’t you think?

Perhaps you should check the amount of doctors employed in Germany Dermot. While you’re at it, check the last two medical manpower reports suggesting a chronic shortage of doctors in this country as compared to European and international norms.

Idiotic, lazy, ill-informed statement. Don’t get me started! Unbelievable..

Check their working hours Mr. O’Reilly. Pay in Ireland is based on hours worked. Large pay packets equate to slave labour, and hardly any hospital in Ireland is actually paying for all the hours worked. I’m sure you’re correct however. After all, that’s why Ireland has experienced such an influx of German doctors…no wait…

If the Irish public sector doctors don’t like their pay/work conditions and if they think that they have a lot more to offer, why don’t they start/join private practices (I mean not public/private but purely private)?

Away, troll.

I think you’ll find that GPs are Private Sector businesses. Therefore there is no point referring to their wages in this thread on Croke Park II. And like all private sector businesses, they can be run and charge as necessary to pay the fees for all staff. How much did you pay the last time you went to a dentist? Dd you complain about how overpaid they were? Go troll elsewhere.

You are talking rubbish mr know. You obviously have no clue or understanding what doctors and GPs earn.

Mr Know sweet fu*k all!

If someone rederrors my statement, please have a decency to make a counter-argument…

Firstly, new consultant contracts advocate a full time, public only practice. This means more hours in hospital and at a massively reduced rate to their predecessors. The time to run a private service during a working week doesn’t exist for new consultants. American doctors wont come here because it takes twice as long to train to consultant level, the lifestyle is poor by comparison and they will lose money. Fact.

Secondly, times are changing! Medicine is no longer a career for the already well to do with families full of doctors. It’s for anyone willing to graft hard enough for it and for 50% of new Irish grads, this comes with a price tag of €100k plus. Do you fancy 5 to 9 years undergrad training for less than €15 an hour when you’re done and a €1000 per month loan repayment for 10 years before you pay a cent in tax? Working 70 hours a week and getting paid for 40 of them? People are underestimating how messed up the health service is and how screwed it will be in July as the SHOs take flight.

Anthony,
How much student debt do you think the US medical school grads have? More than the Irish ones… Fact. Also, the US med. grads have to do some serious “slave” labor during 2 years of internship… That aside, maybe the solution is to make new consultants pick public or private path from the very beginning?

And, Anthony, what prevents you (assuming that you are a Dr) from starting your private practice after you pay your “dues”? Seems that you expect to get a big return on your investment right away – even in this market…

Anna
There is a big difference between 2 years slave labour in the stats and between 10 and 15 here.
Having worked here and abroad as a nurse in operating theatre and seeing first hand what Dr’s working conditions are like I do not blame them for leaving here in high numbers.
There is no certainty that any Irish doctor undertaking years of specialist training will get a consultants post in this country it’s not a fair or just system.

Cliodhna,
Please my response to Anthony’s new posting…

Jees, people, all I’m trying to do is to have a conversation about how to fix the system, not just complain about it…

Anna,
You asked for a debate earlier if you don’t like the answers you shouldn’t have asked for one.
The NCHD’s have put forward solutions to the existing problems to the HSE who ultimately choose to bury their heads in the sand. Maybe they’ll listen when doctors leave for better work conditions no one in the 21st century should be expected to slave for a living.

Costs in the US healthcare system are kept in check are they?? Tell us another