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Dublin: 11 °C Sunday 19 May, 2013

Just 10-20 per cent of people better off on dole, says ESRI

The economic think-tank has revised the findings from a controversial working paper which it pulled earlier this week.

People queue at a social welfare office in Dun Laoghaire
People queue at a social welfare office in Dun Laoghaire
Image: Photocall Ireland

BETWEEN TEN AND 20 per cent of people would be better off financially on the dole than if they found work, according to new findings released by the ESRI.

The economic think-tank yesterday published a ‘note’ revising the findings of a controversial working paper prepared by Richard Tol and two other researchers.

Tol’s paper had suggested that 44 per cent of adults with children would be better off on the dole, because of the high costs associated with working. It was withdrawn by the ESRI which said there were serious issues with its methods.

The methodology in Tol’s original paper is heavily criticised in the ESRI’s latest release, prepared by Seamus McGuinness and Peter O’Connell.

The researchers said they found “inconsistencies” in the paper’s analysis, with some expenditure measured per household while income was measured per individual. McGuinness and O’Connell also said some of the original paper’s methodology is “not appropriate” as it is based on “unrealistic assumptions”.

The final conclusions were thus “unreliable”, the new note says.

However, the revised findings still suggest that a significant proportion of adults would be better off on benefits than finding work. The note says that nine per cent of adults who did not need to pay for childcare would be better off on the dole, with the figure rising to 19 per cent for those with one child under five.

Responding to the new findings, Richard Tol yesterday appeared to endorse the new findings, saying they were made with “superior data”:

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He added that he had “repeatedly asked” for collaboration from other parts of the ESRI on the original paper.

Richard Tol left the ESRI in a public spat earlier this year, saying that the think tank was “muffled” in its criticisms of Government policy.

Read: Suggestions of government interference in ESRI paper withdrawal ‘unfounded’>

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Comments (64 Comments)

  • Still too high a percentage.

    The big problem is not that the dole is too high or wages are too low, it’s the cost of living.

    It should not be cheaper to import milk etc to Ireland than produce the local equivalent.

    We need a drop in the cost of living, mortgage, groceries etc before we can reduce dole etc.

    Reply
    • Taxs are way too high. My husband Looses a HUGE amount in tax every month. And yes,the cost of living is over the top. A lot of people though are claiming several different benefits and not just jobseekers. They come out with a lot of money each week if they play their cards right

      Reply
    • Show me another country with our standard of living with lower taxes…. You won’t find one. It’s just not possible. Our taxes are much more reasonable than the vast majority of peoples’.

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    • Show me another country with our standard of living with lower taxes…. You won’t find one. It’s just not possible. Our taxes are much more reasonable than the vast majority of peoples’.

      Reply
    • Our direct taxation is low but we pay a stupid amount in indirect or stealth taxes. I’d have no priblem paying about 50% in direct taxation if it meant that childcare, health etc…were better provided for. As things stand, people pay more than half their income on things like childcare, motor tax, insurance, health insurance and the rest.

      Reply
    • We have billions in resources oil gas fish forestry water food all being robbed no need for any of this folks wake up

      Reply
  • I love the use of the word just in this headline? By my Maths, that’s a pretty significant number

    Reply
    • While articles here are invariably well written, there is an occasional, yet distinct editorial leaning to the left, which makes itself apparent in the way headlines are worded here from time to time.

      To be fair, there are far worse examples out there-on either side of the left/right divide!

      Reply
  • Bloody hell! Did the have another raffle then?

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  • Just 10-20%…they say it as if thats a good thing…. no wonder this country is broke…. spending billions on social welfare…..it should be 0 % !!!! not one person in this country should be better off on the dole, then if they worked, why is this even possible ???

    Reply
    • D Carr 16/06/12 #

      Fully agree with you… Should not be possible to be better off on dole than to go out working!!

      Reply
    • Drop the brush there a second Scott. I’m on the dole (summer months as I’m in college now as a mature student on BTEA) and I only get e188 a week. I have to pay all my utility bills, car tax, house insurance, car insurance, mortgage out of that. I have to keep the car off the road during the summer as I simply can’t afford it. I’m barely scraping by, but am determined to get a good qualification and get a good job after it.
      I was working for 20 years since leaving school. I’m simply using some of the tax “I paid” not you over that 20 years to survive now.

      I can’t stand people like you that make sweeping generalisations about all the people on the dole.
      “It should be 0%”, you better lock up your house. Can you image if it was this. People hungry on the streets. What type of society is that to have?

      One thing is true, the cost of living in this country is chronic and the government are going to make it worst especially for the working people with extra charges. With the cost of fuel, price of running a car and paying a second mortgage for childcare no wonder the working class are angry. I would and I was when I was working also.

      Just remember there are two types of people on the dole. The ones that were unemployed during the good times with all the extra allowances you can think of and the recently unemployed people who are lucky to get their full e188 and nothing else as they have their own houses.

      So shame on you and anyone else that make such sweeping generalisations of the unemployed!

      Reply
    • Also, I may have understood the 0% as you probably weren’t talking about having no money for dole. I obviously agree that you should not be better off on the dole than working. That just doesn’t make sense.

      Everybody on the dole should just get e188 a week and that’s it. No extra benefits. Why should one section of society get free housing and money for everything and others have to work damn hard to get everything. I rather fend for myself.

      Apologies of I took you up wrong.

      Reply
    • @ unreadable name
      1. Why are you on job seekers allowance for the summer and not seeking a job
      2. You say it’s difficult paying bills on the the dole, it supposed to be difficult, it’s the dole, not free lifestyle money.
      3. You still have a car, house, broadband, phone etc. you’re not destitute
      4. What sort of a society do you live in where you think prsi and paye are a savings scheme for when you want to study and think that others are not paying for you now.
      5. You speak of working class being annoyed at taxes, I’m working class (not middle class), I work!!!, the government and media seem to have blurred the lines on this over the years, what they call working class are actually welfare class, and middle class is actually working class.

      Reply
    • Gavin I was in the exact same boat when i lost my job a few years ago and couldn’t find another. As I have just finished college i think I can answer your queries.
      1) You lose your BEA if you return to work. You have to be on job seekers for 9 months to qualify.
      2) I didn’t get rent allowance or any money towards things like electricity when for instance the winter before it was almost a decision between that and buying food.
      3) Most there he doesn’t need but having Internet access is a must when you’re in college or your results will most likely be effected.
      4) Get down off your high horse. I tried my best to get work and only then decided to back to college. All on the instruction of the previous government telling the unemployed to return to education and up skill.
      5) Your point is?

      Reply
    • I think the point is that Gavin objects to is your conviction that we are all entitled to our broadband, or an adult education that someone else will pay for, or for that matter our own cars funded by the social welfare scheme.
      I spent a month in Uganda last year doing voluntary work, and I was trying to explain to a local how in Ireland these things are give out for free. He didn’t believe me and thought I was taking the piss.
      There isn’t a God given right to broadband/own computers and cars, it’s just that we are living in bubble where we think that is the natural order.

      Reply
    • John F 16/06/12 #

      Well said Jim! The sense of entitlement by some people in this country is disgusting!

      Reply
    • “1. Why are you on job seekers allowance for the summer and not seeking a job”

      What do you mean by this? I am looking for a job since finishing up college 2 weeks ago and I’m actually starting a job next Wednesday. I’m working for the rest of the summer and finishing off my course in September.

      2. You say it’s difficult paying bills on the the dole, it supposed to be difficult, it’s the dole, not free lifestyle money.

      Yeah exactly, totally agree with you. I said I was finding it hard as are many people even in full time employment.

      3. You still have a car, house, broadband, phone etc. you’re not destitute

      No thank God. I don’t drink or smoke and good with money.

      4. What sort of a society do you live in where you think prsi and paye are a savings scheme for when you want to study and think that others are not paying for you now.

      I didn’t want to study. Was quite happy in my job thank you very much. You’re making alot of assumptions aren’t you.

      5. You speak of working class being annoyed at taxes, I’m working class (not middle class), I work!!!, the government and media seem to have blurred the lines on this over the years, what they call working class are actually welfare class, and middle class is actually working class.

      Yeah ok. So what was you point there. You just made alot of assumptions about me.

      Sorry people but “you” all speak about all “your” money funding all the social welfare. But up to a year ago I also funded this for 20 years. I don’t see this as a pot of money now that I can spend but this is the system that is in place. When people are in a difficult situation there is assistance in place to help these people return to work. The system is deeply flawed though and needs an overhaul. People should not be allowed to be on it indefinitely and should be encouraged to upskill and put into schemes. If not then your payments reduce until you have to earn your keep.

      Get angry with the real people that screwed our country and still are. The government must be smiling that we’re all turning on each other, public sector vs private, employed vs unemployed. It should be the poor vs the rich!

      Reply
    • @John F

      You talking about me?

      Reply
    • John F 16/06/12 #

      @ ƒR()§†H@X , if that is your real name! :) I would never say a bad word against your, my comment was said in general btw

      Reply
  • good point about social welfare rising in line with the number of kids, anyone on low pay in the private sector does not have that help

    Reply
  • Until you or your partner or children get sick and need a costly regular prescription, then your screwed… Taxing and insuring a car to get to work etc.. Lets see this revision in full that’s government influenced. Lets have a report on the social effects of not having at least one parent raising your children..

    Reply
  • What on earth are we paying those people a salary for? An Economic Research Institute my eye. They say its between 10% and 20%. Now if it was called the Economic Guessing InsTitute or EGIT I could accept such a wide range.

    Reply
  • Abercrombie & Fitch opening in College Green Dublin in August, 300 jobs.

    Reply
  • So only 20% of those on social welfare are better off than those who work? Disgraceful! Don’t we have equality and discrimination laws against that sort of thing?

    Reply
  • Of course many would. Why struggle in some sh!tty job only just making ends meat and god forbid you have to go to the doctors and get a prescription. when you could be getting rent allowance, medical card and €186 straight into the hand every week.

    Reply
    • There you go – no incentive to work

      Reply
    • You’re dead right. As I said on a previous article my girlfriend is working in HR and she is probably better off on the dole with the costs of living and going to work. Her crohn’s disease flared up last Christmas and it cost her thousands, completely wiping out all her savings and as it can return easily all the government gave her was a stinking doctors visit card, she can’t afford to get sick again! In my view she is much better off on the dole for the reasons I said in my first comment.

      Reply
    • i cant imagine how annoying that must be to lose all her savings like that, i would have had to pay out 12k altogether this year because of my crohn’s if i didnt have health insurance. and i didnt even have any savings to lose. f*^k crohn’s

      Reply
  • sorry if I’ve got this wrong but thats 10%-20% of all people though isnt it? the 40%+ (or whatever the precentage was) was for families with children was it not? its just a play on figures to make it all look better when really the report from before still stands

    Reply
    • Hi Sinead, just to clarify – this new ‘note’ revises the original working paper’s findings. So where Tol’s paper said 44pc of parents would be better off on benefits, the ESRI are now saying that the figure is 19 per cent – or nine per cent for those that don’t have children. Hope that helps!

      Reply
  • 436,000 unemployed X 15% better of on the dole ((10+20) / 2) = 65,400 people who have no incentive to go back to work!!!! The whole system needs overhauling but it won’t happen

    Reply
  • Don’t worry, if there’s enough public outcry at 10 – 20%, they’ll revise it down again…

    Reply
  • and dont forget if your under 23yrs old you only get 100e aweek how is anyone sipose to live on that with bills? i hope all these that comment on here never lose there job

    Reply
    • John F 16/06/12 #

      People under 25 shouldn’t get dole full stop! unless they’ve worked and paid tax for at least 2yrs!

      Reply
    • John F 16/06/12 #

      Give genuine case access to state run accomodation until they can get themselves on their feet! , food and shelter provided! People wouldn’t be long finding work! Cash payment welfare should only be available to those who have previously worked and paid taxes and then for a limited time only!
      Once upon a time in this country a person could turn 18 and claim exact same dole as someone who had lot their job after working 40yrs , absolute disgrace!

      Reply
    • John thats crap.. You cant make that call but you think someone who has 40 yrs work under their belt is entitled to more social welfare.
      It should be incrementaly take from someone who is classed as long term unemployed at a rate of 20% per year..

      It would weed out self entitlement and long term scroungers from the system and save a hell of a lot of money, that money could be invested into a lot of things such as healthcare or creating new jobs. You can just say.. oh sure u were were 1 year and 11 months you can get dole.. It doesnt make any sense.

      Reply
  • This ESRI crowd are a complete waste of money! They come out with drivel nearly every week! Just go back over the past 5 years and compare the forecasts they made in regards to growth and inflation to what actually happened! They should be closed down immediately!

    Reply
  • Paul 16/06/12 #

    I love the outrage here against people on the dole. Do you people not realise that the reason you are even thinking about this is because the neo-liberal sociopaths in power are planning on cutting social welfare spending further and so engineered this whole non-story. Divide and conquer. They already did it against ordinary workers and that’s why people in some circumstances are in a better position than some people in low paid jobs. Further deepen social cleavages and make the people even more miserable so these vicious money grubbing slugs can siphon off more cash. Nothing will change until we rise up and say enough.

    Reply
    • Paul I don’t think people on the dole is the issue, it’s the fact that the dole and social welfare payments are so high in relation to the minimum wage. This leads to the scenario where it costs some people to work. Ludicrous.

      Reply
    • Paul 16/06/12 #

      I know people on the dole isnt the issue. The issue is that the business lobbyists and hegemons have successfully attacked the ordinary workers to the point where most people are being squeezed to the point of breaking. The greedy swines should pay the workers a decent wage instead of cutting wages further. Its got tot he point where wages cant be cut much more or people will literally starve so its time to attack the weakest in society-those reliant on social welfare. I’d rephrase what you said to ‘it’s the fact that the minimum wage is so low….’

      Reply
  • BMJF 16/06/12 #

    Lets not forget that there is two sides to this equation – value of social protection payments on one side but also cost of going to work on the other! At one point I paid 20k a year for childcare, poor public transport forces people to drive and often long distances thanks to bad planning – let’s address the costs associated with going to work and the 19% fig will drop to 0% that many call for here

    Reply
  • we all know whats next, this is just laying the ground for a social welfare cut,

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  • Tol’s findings upset the cosy smoked socialists’ stories of ‘hardship’. By the time someone on the minimum wage gets a daily bus or train the work, has something to eat and buys a few necessary pieces of clothing, the gap between take home pay and the dole is rubbed out. Someone with four or more kids unskilled/semiskilled will not get employment that will pay the equivalent of what welfare offers when rent allowances, medical cards, allowances for whatever else are thrown in. It makes no sense for welfare to rise in line with the number of kids. It is completely at odds with how salaries are fixed in the private sector. During the bubble years I employed fourteen people at max. Now I am down to half a secretary in Ireland.

    Reply
  • BMJF 16/06/12 #

    Can I clarify something PRSI pay related social INSURANCE IS a saving scheme or should I say INSURANCE scheme for when u may need jobseekers benefit following unemployment.. It’s not means tested and doesn’t last more that 9-12months. Job seekers allowance is means tested so any savings, shares, assets taken into account. 99% of people not working don’t want to be unemployed, the rest is tabloid, sensationalist clap trap!

    Reply
  • This country is a joke .

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  • Rubbish, that’s still 10-20% too high. This country is unreal for handouts. Between that and women laying on their backs they get everything handed to them. Don’t work and make babies = an easy life !!

    Reply
    • Do you want to sterilise people claiming social welfare Darragh?
      Should they have less rights than those working?
      Should they exist rather than live because they were unlucky enough to lose their jobs?

      Reply
    • BMJF 16/06/12 #

      If it is so easy stop moaning, give up ur job and enjoy the ride! …no? Oh because you’ve pride and want to work? No?…because you realise that you haven’t really a clue what it is like to spend a year or more of your life unemployed and half people like you abusing you!!

      Reply
  • well im on socialwelfare single person and i know for one im 250e aweek worse off then when i was working i dont know anyone thats better off on the dole it bugs da crap outa me people saying that your better off on the dole then working how dose that happen dosnt happen in my world 188e when youv bills is not alot 2live on in this country id much rather be working id love to see some of these people that comment on here live on 188e aweek

    Reply
    • You have to add in the rest though. Someone in a council house who gets supplementary allowances, fuel allowances, single parent allowance and all the rest. These are the people who would be better off.

      Personally I think the dole isn’t too much but the whole system needs serious reform fast

      Reply
  • first there needs to be more employment opportunities to get the people off the dole. i was working full time paying full childcare and rent, nothing left from wages. now i have two and someone tell me how am i meant to pay all that plus food and bills etc even with 2 adults working? due to return to work shortly but someone please tell me what is my motivation for leaving my kids for strangers to raise. even in poor countries the education and healthcare is free so what do we get for our taxes. oh yeah, we get to pay things like tv licence…l

    Reply
  • GavanD 16/06/12 #

    ?71 for dole in the UK

    Says it all

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  • I hear on the next reshuffle Vadrakar is going to be the Minister for social welfare and hes going to cut job seekers allowance by 40 per cent and introduce food vouchers. He says Joan Burton to soft on the unemployed.

    Reply
  • the number should be 0% end of story, no wonder the country is fcuked

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  • Well, is it 10% or is it 20%?!

    You’d think the ESRI would know that there’s a BIG difference between 10% and 20%.

    The figures in the revised version seem more vague and less rigourously defined than the 44% mentioned in the first report (Tol’s).

    I think, judging by my own experience in the workplace, that Tol’s research methodology was more reliable.

    All my work mates regularly recount stories of the fortunes that can be ill-gotten on the dole. Many career “government artistes” are laughing all the way to the Canaries.

    Reply
    • Hi Garrai – the ESRI’s latest figures put the figure at 9 per cent of parents who don’t need to pay for childcare, and 19 per cent of parents who do – hence the discrepancy in the headline. Hope that helps!

      Reply
  • Ye are some human beings ….

    Reply

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