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Dublin: 7 °C Thursday 23 May, 2013

Irish government ‘fears boycott of new water charges’

A leaked Troika document also reveals that the installation of water meters could be years behind the official schedule.

The Troika has expressed its frustrations at the slow pace of progress to introduce water charges in Ireland before the bailout ends this December.
The Troika has expressed its frustrations at the slow pace of progress to introduce water charges in Ireland before the bailout ends this December.
Image: Laura Hutton/Photocall Ireland

A DRAFT DOCUMENT prepared by the European Commission has revealed the Irish government’s fears of a popular boycott of the incoming water charges, long before meters have been installed throughout the country.

The draft document, seen by TheJournal.ie, also reveals that Ireland’s delays in determining the level of the new water charges – which will be introduced in 2014 – and in ordering new water meters could mean the final installation of meters may be years behind schedule.

The report says that while the process of setting up the new Irish Water body to take control of billing and metering is continuing, it is advancing only “at a slow pace.”

It also confirms that the new water charges will have been “generalised to all consumers” – including business premises as well as homes – by the end of this year.

The document says there are significant “implementation risks” in ploughing ahead with water charges, largely as a result of the delays in finding suppliers for the water meters which are to be fitted to hundreds of thousands of homes nationwide, and adds:

The authorities are concerned that there might be resistance to introduce charges ahead of a full roll-out of meters.

There is no comment on whether the Troika shares this fear, which may be prompted by the relatively low rate of compliance with the Household Charge, the now-defunct €100 fee which was intended as an interim combined property and water charge.

Deep dissatisfaction with delay in bringing in charges

The document, which is broadly critical of Ireland’s failure to move more quickly in bringing in the new charges, which are necessary in order to “foster an efficient and rational use of a scarce and valuable resource”.

The Commission also believes the roll-out of new charges is urgently needed “to ensure the viability of the sector’s business model” and to fund other investments such as a programme to repair leakages and improve the water transmission network.

Although the Commission says introducing full water charges will generate a major saving for the Exchequer – which currently spends €1.2 billion each year on providing water services, but makes back only €200 million in charges to commercial users – it expresses deep dissatisfaction with the government’s slow progress in introducing them.

“Among other things, progress towards the installation of water meters has lagged,” it complains, before adding:

The procurement processes for the supply of boundary boxes and the installation contracts are yet to be completed, and the authorities recognise that actual installation of boundary boxes and meters will not start until the third quarter of 2013.

The full roll-out of meters is likely to take years and extend well beyond the scheduled date for the introduction of water charges, which will create additional difficulties regarding the pricing mechanism.

‘Landmark decisions’ needed – and fast

The document says the delays experienced so far mean the Irish government – and in particular, environment minister Phil Hogan – needs to make a series of “landmark decisions” in the coming months, without which changes will not be in place by the end of 2013 as had previously been agreed.

These include:

  • The introduction of new laws to give the Commission for Energy Regulation the legal power to oversee and regulate the water industry;
  • The introduction of a comprehensive Water Services Bill, which was listed as a government ‘priority’ for the autumn Dáil term but which was only formally published on Thursday;
  • Setting up Irish Water as a full legal entity, initially on an interim basis before giving it full form under the ownership of Bord Gais;
  • Beginning the installation of water meters around the country;
  • Deciding on a pricing structure for domestic and business consumers; and
  • Deciding on how much public money will be put into Irish Water in the coming years until its revenues reach a point where the body is fiscally independent of the central government.

The report outlines, however, that the most recent Memorandum of Understanding – published in November – contains commitments by the Irish government to carry through on its plans for water charges.

That memorandum includes a commitment whereby the Commission for Energy Regulation will hold public consultations in the second quarter of 2013 to determine approximate levels for water charges, while the government also hopes to legally establish Irish Water by the end of June.

This is, according to the memorandum – the official ‘terms and conditions’ of Ireland’s bailout loans – “with a view to start charging by the end of the EU-IMF programme period” (that is, by the end of 2013).

“The authorities are committed to engage with the European Commission in developing the new legislative arrangements for the sector,” the report says.

Previous leaked report: Water charges to kick in from January 2014

In full: More of TheJournal.ie‘s coverage on the leaked European documents >

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Comments (135 Comments)

  • most important bit in this article is the bit about full ownership of the water body to bordgais but isnt bordgais on the sell list? so in effect the already have made the decision to sell our water . in mexico the imf made the government sell the water to veolia the french company and the poor mexican started to pay for what out there is very scarce and had to pay on average one third of their income for water. dont forget veolia is operating in ireland already. we may do what the italians did when berlusconi tried to sell their water the got out on the streets and prevented the sale.i would be willing to pay a nominial amount of €100 but not to a private company. at one time in this country only our rivers ran free now the intend to sell off what is essential along with a roof over your head.

    Reply
  • The new oxygen tax which is being worked on by Fine Gael/Labour top officials makes much more sense. If someone chooses to go jogging or play sports why shouldn’t they pay more than those who are more sedentary and just watch television? The fairest system would be based on lung capacity but I bet Labour/FG will give themselves a waiver for when they are spouting in the Dail on their radio commentary shows.
    (This post contains irony).

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  • As someone who remembers the last anti-water charges campaign very well, all I can say is they are in for a fight on this issue, ( they left off water charges in Dublin until last in 1994 each year more and more people refused to pay the water charges until they were abolished in 1996.

    The planned water company is only a step in the process of privatising Irelands water supplies/water services-(Step 1) create a new water company, (Step 2) transfer all water services to the new water company- (Step 3) make the new company as profitable as possible- (Step 4) once Irish Water is profitable sell off Irish Water as part of the sale of state assets and privatise all water supplies/water services-I know some people might say ah sure none of the above will ever happen-I say to people check out the IMFs record on insisting on water privatization in countries they go into-privatization of water will be the future in Ireland if people don,t organise and resist the water charges.

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  • Very upsetting for them. My heart bleeds like a leaking water main. I for one won’t be paying water charges. They’ve already bled me dry.

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  • We are already paying waste disposal charges,will have property tax this year and then water charges! So what services is the property tax supposed to cover? In truth its the gov stealing from us like they do with motor tax and all the crap roads in the country. Same way they will now be stealing from employers who pay into a prsi fund which used to cover a percentge of redundancy payments and now the employers get nothing but still have to pay the prsi. I dont mind paying my fair share but we are being robbed left right and centre by our government while they still enjoy their massive wages and expenses. It has to stop. Sooner or later we will b forced onto the streets to protest cos they will leave us with no other option

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    • The sooner we go onto the streets and protest, the better, because they are only warming up. There are more taxes and cuts coming, don’t be fooled by the politicians’ promises. Someone smart one said that whatever the govt says, you should think exactly the opposite. Think about it. And get angry!

      Reply
  • More money down the drain…

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  • The water supply to my house is split between my neighbour and me. Your looking at digging up paths and driveways to every house in the cull de sac where I live to fit meters.
    My grandmothers house in Wexford town has no stopcock outside and nobody knows where the supply comes from including the council.
    It’ll take years to instal so it looks like an unfair flat rate.

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  • These Government leaks are a laugh a bit like our Public water supply.

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  • @Vincent – the household charge was defeated. 50% of individual homeowners boycotted the tax. This is the reason why the troika’s puppets in govt are introducing draconian legislation re property and water taxes to try and intimidate the population. But they are in for the mother of all fights because the people have had enough. We defeated the water charges in the mid nineties and will do the same again. When the country was awash with money nothing was done to upgrade the pipe network whereby up to 50% of water is lost through leakage. Building regulations were not enforced towards water conservation. Now this new tax is just another Trojan horse towards the privatization of all our public services. It is absolutely imperative that it is defeated. If we want to truly “broaden the tax base” towards providing public services we could start with a wealth tax, increase corporation tax and take our oil ang gas reserves into public ownership. Instead of bleeding the ordinary people dry and turning this recession into a prolonged depression.

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  • The water mains in my home is so bad we need to filter it twice to get the limescale cleared , washing machine , shower and heating system life time also shortened due to the water quality. I predict they will mess the whole payment of charges up , then resort to their usual bully tactics . Noonan will probably say this time if you can afford tea bags then you can afford to pay.
    When will they realise you can only trod on the working middle class so much , maybe never . I can see our overlords in europe coming in and just taking over , think of the salaries and pensions they could get .The rest could go back to teaching ? or not .

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  • Ryan'O 12/01/13 #

    I’m not paying for poisoned water. Its got to be fluoride/bacteria free and safe for my children to consume if they want me to pay for it. And I’m not paying for more than half of it to go into the ground via old, rotten, rusted, leaky pipes.

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    • Well said

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    • eh, there’s no clinical evidence that fluoride, in the concentrations found in water systems, causes any harm, is there? Can you cite some sources to illustrate your point?

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    • The World Health Organisation has advised non breast feeding Irish mothers to use bottled water to make their babies formala bottles because of the levels of chlorine in Irish water. Their concern was the level of chlorine, not chlorine itself.

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    • Sorry, I meant to say fluoride, not chlorine.

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    • Mack 12/01/13 #

      @seamus I’ll give you the EPA and governmental website might be better informed/trusted than a Wikipedia page.
      http://water.epa.gov/drink/contaminants/basicinformation/fluoride.cfm#four

      Reply
    • Not the point Seamus. Fluoridation, good or bad is mass medication which is at least immoral

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    • Seamus

      You are wrong there.

      If you read the instructions on baby formulae it states do not use water containing added flouride.

      In other words do not use the public water supply when making babys bottles.

      In this case I would trust big business over local authorities and failed teachers. They are the ones trying not to damage our childfens health unlike Hr. Phil and his buddies.

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    • If you looking into floride , most country’s have banned it in Europe , some have even changed their constitution banning it ever been considered for use .

      Can you link me a case study the Irish government have done on the impact on floride ?

      Medication without consent , the government is very fearful of this

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    • If the fluoride in your water is mass medication what is the iodine in your salt, the frolic acid in your cereals, the vitamin D in your margarine and plant spreads…

      Grow up, no one is trying to poison you and be thankful that teeth pulling, goiter, rickets and spina bifida are completely avoidable

      And don’t even get me started about idiots not vaccinating their kids…

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    • Andrew. Salt, Cereals etc etc are optional items you purchase in a shop. We are talking about the supply of a fundamental human right and no option to not have fluoridation. Chlorination has been around for years and has possibly doubled the life expectancy. Show me a definitive literature review that outlines fluoridation helps anything whatsoever and ill show you one that discredits it. Fact of matter is, fluoridation was introduced to get rid of a waste product. Show me evidence that kids growing up in the countryside using a well have worse teeth than those in the city using fluoridated water. It should be left up to the individual to buy a fluoridated toothpaste or not.

      My point did not say anything about poison I said “good or bad” it raises moral issues.

      And no one said anything about vaccinating kids so I don’t know what your blathering on about there.

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    • Nn choice, I think maybe I’m mistaken but last time I hit a tesco there seemed to a whole aisle of bottled product for the hippies and idiots of the world to drink…It’s even in BPA free bottles these days

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    • What a backward comment. I’m neither a hippy nor an idiot but would still like some actual evidence from an independent source that would outline what I have suggested above. There ought to be plenty of data as the chemical has been used since the 40s. Fact of matter is, the smelting industry and the dental industry (through dental fluorosis) have much to benefit from the use of fluoride. These industries drove studies in the US at the beginning.

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    • Take a look at this video to find out about ‘The Flouride Deception’ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3y8uwtxrHo
      … the Irish population ARE being slow poisoned!

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    • @Mack that study was done in 1974 in the US. Thats a long time ago. Dentists know about teeth.
      Anything about ingestion on chemicals they know nothing about.
      It can be beneficial to be rubbed onto teeth but teeth cant absorbed it so adding it to water is pointless
      Ingestion of fluoride is linked to brittle bones & other diseases.
      We get our fluoride from the Netherlands & pay millions for the waste from fertilizer waste which goes into the water.
      Fluoride was first put in the water of the Jews by the Nazis.
      The doses of the fluoride cant be measured going to each house or estate or area. Some houses/areas could be getting a lot more than other areas.
      We are one of the only countries in Europe to use it. The government have done no studies to find out what fluoride is beneficial or not

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    • @ryan- just like the Household Charge, everyone will end up paying it. Funny to hear the hollow protesting of defiance. Akin to a four year old throwing a hissy fit in the fresh produce aisle in Dunnes.

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    • Ryan'O 12/01/13 #

      Did you not read the article Vincent? Your party are scared to introduce it. It will take years to implement and by that time FG will be long banished to the opposition benches. And you’re wrong in not paying for the privilege of poisoning my children! And FYI I still haven’t paid the HHC. I’m waiting on a magic letter that says I have to.

      Reply
  • “Scarce and valuable resource” There is nothing scarce about water in this country.

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  • There’s a lot of work to be done updating the antiquated system before water charges are brought in. As things stand most of the water leaks away through very old pipes.

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    • Chicken and egg. The need the revenue generated from water charges to be able to afford to update the system. The service is bad, so people don’t want to pay for it. If the service improved, people may be less opposed to paying. But unless the pay, the service won’t improve. On the other hand, we could just keep repeating that everything’s awful, everything’s doomed to failure, and be done with it.

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    • Ryan'O 12/01/13 #

      Now that would be the common sense approach. But do you honestly think this government are capable of such tasks? They’d slap in the meters without fixing the pipes and hope nobody’s watching

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    • That’s assuming the money collected would be used to upgrade the supply network. My thoughts are that they will just use it to further pay back the IMF. Also we see continued wastage of public money by local councils. A recent investigation by the Irish Examiner revealed that Cork city council have spent €100,000 storing a feckin flower display from the Chelsea garden show, Will continue to spend € 6,000 a month on storage until they can install it as a tourist attraction. Installation cost…€2.3million. I’m not making this up. Sorry for going off point but its important to highlight the continued wastage by public bodies and the continued screwing over of the citizen.

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    • Don’t forget that someone in govt or higher civil service will pass the contract for installation to a family member. Can’t be letting any of the grubby peasants be getting a turn. The actual installation will be through fas and a few minimum wage laborers. Rte will be proclaiming a jobs boost and the merry dance swings on.

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    • mcbab 12/01/13 #

      Nikolas you are the lone sane voice on here. If people had accepted water charges when the government of the day attempted to introduce them, think it was early 80′s, our service would be more efficient. But then, as now, people wouldn’t pay so the government backed down. This time there will be no back down I suspect

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    • The state is spending 1.2 Billion on the provision of water and only raising 200 million in revenues from water charges.
      Simple solution- the government puts the public on notice that it is no longer providing water/sewage services. Commencing in the next 12-18 months.
      Household make their own arrangements either with private suppliers or as cooperatives.
      Although, I suspect that this is a revenue raising exercise rather than attempting to ration a ‘scarce and valuable’ resource.

      Reply
    • Ryan'O 12/01/13 #

      Mcrabab FG were abolished because of water rates in the 80s….history is deemed to repeat itself that’s why they’re so scared to introduce it. They’re signing their own opposition papers with the introduction if this regardless of who says to implement it. Buh bye FG don’t let the doors hit ya on the way ouuutttttttt. :€

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    • @ryan- I think I’ve told you before, merely saying it doesn’t make it so….35% at the next election.

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    • Ryan O
      Vinnie has spoken ! Now you do as you are told,and be happy doing it . Do ya hear ?
      Who the pluck do these knobs think they are coming on here using fake I Ds to threaten and bully ordinary decent hard working people.
      Would they like any of us to tell them what is what …. just tempt us

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  • I don’t mind paying water charges at least I’m receiving something in return and water is a scarce commodity but its the water charges on top of the property tax for which I am receiving nothing is what I have a problem with!! I live in the country side and we receive jack shit!! Bin charges went up to €300 this year, property tax €300, motor tax €520 x 2 and septic tank charges on top of all our income tax and our roads are falling apart! Water is the only service I actually receive from the co co! All this double taxation really is becoming a joke! I don’t mind paying my way and contributing what I can but they can’t keep penalising us! Young working families are being screwed over!!

    Reply
  • Time to set up a business installing rainwater collection systems methinks. Keep the mainswater for drinking, use rainwater for laundry, washing, toilet – save a fortune !!

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    • I agree with you, but you forget that, even if you wouldn’t use water from the mains at all, you still pay a set amount for the service to get their water in the first place. So in principle it’s just another way of filling the coffers.

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  • Boycott! Try mass protest too. Just wait and see. Those of us working mad hours for our earnings to be taken will watch those not bothering to work (excluding pensioners, real job seakers & the disabled) be given another free ride. By the by, who isaying for the water meters??? At least 300 if not more per house cost involved in these works. I bet my left arm we will see that bill too. Blood will not come from stones. Stop sweezing us dry.

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    • *is paying

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    • Boycott?! You mean you’re going to stop using water?
      How about this–how about we all get together and throw the bums out of office, or are we so enamored with cronyism, gombeenism, brown-envelope-grabbing, “Of-course-its-unfair-but-its-the-best-we-can-do-so-just-trust-us” squawking, golf-course-deal-making, “shame-on-you-little-people-who-borrowed-too-much-and-caused-this-crisis-that-we-are-simply-trying-to-save-you-from” scolding, corrupt politicians that we are unable to change the very course of the state?
      If that’s the case, you don’t deserve to have a say in what charges are levied. Pay up, little man. Pay up.

      Reply
    • Alien8 12/01/13 #

      You could drill a well… There is enough water under the ground thanks to the leaky pipes.

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  • It’s good to see they are scared

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  • I’m sick to death of this country, it’s all take take take,I haven’t a bob to my name, my daughters going to the cinema now and has to ask her older brother for money cause her mam and dad doesn’t have it, and I wouldn’t mind but we both work and I see our elected representatives swanning around town hands heaving with shopping, where the f##k are their cuts?? what do these people do to earn ?3k per week??

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  • Simple Solution. Our grandparents did it not so long ago with the barrel at the side of the house. Too much poisonous flouride and chlorine in the public water anyway.

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    • Rainwater Harvesting :)

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    • The water collected would be ok for filling the cistern, washing the car or watering the garden. Its certainly a good idea but not for drinking. Chlorination is necessary to kill of pathogens.

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    • You could use reverse-osmosis or UV sterilization or bromines as alternatives to chlorine, but chlorine is cheap and it works…

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    • Fill your rain barrel with several feet of sand. Sand filters, or biofilters, are effective rainwater filters that work using gravity. Rain falls in the top and passes first through a naturally forming hypogeal layer. Then the rain trickles down through the sand and comes out the spout as remarkably clean drinking water. You can also use a gravity water filter like https://www.vitali.com.au/ (available in Ireland), to further filter your drinking water.

      If you have money to invest check this out the Grad rainwater harvesting system http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLTjCoWB0l0

      Finally, they will not cut your water off when the new charge comes in but they will reduce the flow enough to hinder using your washing machine or shower … so adapt a system to suit yourself … invest in some buckets and a good bath for heating up your own rainwater once or twice a week! :)

      ADAPT AND OVERCOME

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    • I like your ideas, basically a mini water purification plant.

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  • The concentration camp will soon be set up with the ff/l in charge Only following orders we will be told The final solution neglect the old and the sick first then neglect the people that want to help them
    Then make the citizens lives worthless deprive them of power ‘ break them down ‘ scatter them across the world .When they realise they are nothing then mould them to our liking

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  • I thought that under the Irish Constitution, all the natural resources of the country belong to the people of Ireland and were held in trust by the State? Or was the Constitution torn up and replaced with IMF orders?

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  • Maybe if the county concils actually collected all the water rates from business things wouldnt be too bad. A report last year showed that some councils were collecting less than 25% or water charges from business. And will our taxes drop when we start paying the charges? Because a portion of our yax money already goes to local authorities to pay for this.

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  • Already paying through high taxation. Wont be paying again.

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    • Absolutely right – water charging is sensible to restrain waste but that’s not the intent here instead it’s just another tax to defer dealing with the budget deficit which at it’s heart is about a refusal to tackle public sector pay and pension levels. Until these are dealt with it’s completely legitimate to oppose new (and existing) taxation.

      Unlike the household tax this is one where the government look like deploying a hostage to protest at every property boundary – I’d be surprised if people took long to figure out that random vandalism of meters would derail the system (not the meter on their property but any meter anywhere that reared it’s ugly head, double benefit of stopping those who submit to the tax from paying). Not of course that one would advocate vandalism, just I can see this happening when those with fewer qualms cotton on to it .

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  • It’s only in Ireland would people tolerate this money grabbing from people who are at their wits end.
    For Example : Banks sponsoring sports is surly immoral at a time when less well off are scarifying basic needs to support luxury items like sport and corporate privileges to banks. The government are yet again taking from the poorest to give to banks. Well the logic used by the banks is that Sailing, Rugby etc is an investment — WAKE UP.

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  • Will the minister be give us allowance. For the Fitting and running of a Water filter system as we in Laois can Not drink the water have to pay for chemical cleaners to clean kettle. Iron. Electric shower and heating system. Just replaced Cooper cylinder last year because of lime and stuff in water. So will we be able to claim all this back. People in council house won’t have to pay

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  • M J W 12/01/13 #

    Another leaked document from the Gestapo,i say we round them all up and chuck them in the nearest river as their so fond of water.

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    • MJW,Well said, and throw the flag protesters in as well with some soap and they can all have a good wash.

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    • M J W 12/01/13 #

      Don’t waste water on them Richard they might charge us for it,i say we scrub the bastards with bleach and let them find their own way home.

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    • Into Leinster House and round them all up , detain them without charge indefinitely at an undisclosed location , a bit like what the Yanks are doing with their Patriot Act , then we get someone proper to run the country , after all , there are only about 8 or 10 members of the Troika when they come visit us every few months , so there is no real need ofr 166 idiots , we can do it with a dozen at most

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  • My sister is married to a farmer and they have a well.No way am I paying for water.

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  • I don’t mind paying a reasonable charge for water, if the quality is good, and the system is efficiently administered and operated. I will not pay a charge levied by gangsters who shovel contract money to their family members and engage in bid-fixing and job-stuffing.
    Most of the people in the world would love good clean water. The lack of potable water is going to be one of the major problems in most of the world.

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  • We are well Organised and we are more then up for the Fight! As we say Up here in wet Donegal Can’t Pay, Won’t Pay!

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  • Very unpopular indeed!

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  • We will not be paying water charges or allowing a smart meter on our property. The water is not fit to drink with the added fluoride which is really industrial waste chemicals coming from China. This year is our chance to demand that fluoride is banned from our drinking water and refuse to pay to be poisoned. For all those who think fluoride is safe and effective please research http://www.fluoridealert.org. 98 % of Europe have banned or stopped adding fluoride to the water.
    http://www.facebook.com/TheGirlAgainstFluoride

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  • Do they think the Irish tax payer has money printing machines in the attic !!

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  • Another excellent article Gavan Reilly. Your finger is on the pulse.

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  • Easy out, cut the wire to the transmitter head and bury it in cement. It is hard to charge people when the reading can not be read. Its not unlawful, this tax on existence is unlawful. Its time to grow up and stop being robbed by this Unconstitutional government, made up of various traitors, deviants and thieves, who work for the Rothschild banking cabal. Lets not be mugs again and give away yet more of our Rights and Freedoms!

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  • The thought of privatising water is frightening fight that aspect if nothing else

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  • One thing is 100 per cent certain. No matter how high the water charges we are soaked for, we will not get a better or more efficient supply of mains water. The reason we are being afflicted with this tax is that water is a mere pretext and this is just a way to get more money out of us.

    FG would not allow an increase in income taxes so as not to upset the upper income earners, who apparently all have their bags and possession packed and ready to leave Ireland, and so the alternative is to extract this revenue with menaces from the unfortunate households who are stranded in Ireland.

    The politicians and senior civil servants need to generate as much revenue as possible to keep themselves in clover and meet our obligations. The lads need their gilt edged pensions.

    So pay up your HhC, your water charges, your property tax and ensure that our lords and masters are looked after. If the State becomes insolvent and loses international support, there may not be enough money to pay the big pensions.

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  • F&^K OFF!!!

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  • As consumers. Under the consumer act, we are to be made aware of what we are paying for. I do not consent to fluoride in the water supply. If the government want me to pay for water, they had better install a reverse osmosis kit in my home first. If its good enough for the Dail. Its good enough for the rest of us.

    If you want to protest the water charge. Use medical grounds as your reason.

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  • Don’t agree with all these charges but
    If are to come in …..
    Bury a new plastic oil tank under your lawn and plumb it so your gutters feed rainwater to it, then have a pump plumbed in so it can fill your attic tanks (grey water) for toilets washing machines etc just use the mains supply for drinking cooking etc
    Lot of work and expense but that warm fuzzy feeling That your not been screwed by the government might be worth it for some!!
    Until they tax,collecting rainwater lol

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  • When they try to install on my street they will will feel the wrath of the people BRING IT ON.

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  • Ill pay my water charges as soon as the fluoride and other hundred or so toxic chemicals that the government dump into it are taken out after all we really shouldnt be paying the government to poison us now should we? but saying that, smokers do pay the government to kill them so it’ll be no surprise …“There will be, in the next generation or so, a pharmacological method of making people love their servitude, and producing dictatorship without tears, so to speak, producing a kind of painless concentration camp for entire societies, so that people will in fact have their liberties taken away from them, but will rather enjoy it, because they will be distracted from any desire to rebel by propaganda or brainwashing, or brainwashing enhanced by pharmacological methods. And this seems to be the final revolution.” Aldous Huxley

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  • I left a statement and a link on water fluoridation here, but it was not published, can someone tell me why?

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  • I will never pay this and am quite willing to use direct action to stop any scab who tries to install water meters on our street BRING IT ON!

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  • JakkiB 12/01/13 #

    Everything Ryan said :)

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  • Ah for gods sake, they’ve nothing to worry about! Hello we’re Irish, we only stand devided! So half will pay, half wont and after threats of fines and jail the other half will cough up out of fear and will be shouted down by the ones who did pay. On the way to the post office all will get drowned by lashing rain and think to themselves “well that’s ironic”!

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  • Water “a scarce and valuable resource” in Ireland?? Have they ever been here??? The troika and Imf may be alble to pull that one in other countries but not here. We’re literally drowning in the stuff. Maybe if it’s that valuable, we should start exporting it with a pipeline like they do for oil? Or is that what they are trying to do by making it something we have to pay for, implying that they then own it and can sell it.

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  • netbird_ 12/02/13 #

    So many people committing suicide due to financial pressure according to the media and bam water charges on the way. It’s insane.

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  • The water supplied to my house has destroyed no less than 4 dishwashers, 6 washing machines (with the latest one on the way out), 12 kettles, all in eight years. Not to mention to serious downturn my health, the health of my children, and my wife’s health has seen since moving in; from skin abrasions to other issues.

    I’ll consider paying for water when Hogan compensates me fully for the replacement cost of all those appliances and my family’s health.

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  • Have Just spent,,,,(wasted ) 40 minutes of my life reading all the comments,,,And at the end of it all I can see why the FG/Lab coalition have no worries about screwing us any way they like,,,They know that Irish People are too lazy and comfortable to bother with any form of protest or civil disobedience,,,,,unless it involves sitting at a pc and typing copious amounts of drivel and suggestions as to what OTHERS should do,,,,,STICKS & STONES WILL BREAK MY BONES < BUT WORDS < MY FRIENDS,,, WILL NEVER HURT ME.. Just keep on posting ,,,shure it'll be grand,,,,
    For Jazus Sake.

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    • No one actually needs to do anything! Not even comment indeed. All we have to do is not engage with this fascist nonsense from this traitorous coalition. As I have suggested before, the easy way to shake them up is to stop paying the TV license for a start. If the government don’t listen, then move on to nonpayment of car tax, slowly escalating the grief for the government. It is simple-we break them before they can break us. They want economic warfare-fine-lets give it to them.

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  • Dodzer33 12/01/13 #

    Vincent – GFY

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  • is it true the Denis O’Brien has set up a company buying these new water metres from china at €10 each, and are selling them to his friends in FG Gov for €150 per unit? there smart metres also emit high levels of radiation also I hear…

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  • Postponing water charges is an obvious attempt by FG/ Lab to dodge the bullets coming down the line when the Local elections take place in 2014. People should not be taken in by this ploy. The thing people should fear most and strongly resist is water privatisation. That would be the last straw in surrendering total sovereignty!

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  • Water charges are a necessary evil I’m afraid, business’ have been paying them quite a while now…
    Providing water just isn’t cost effective for the government.

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    • Eh, not when its managed correctly by proper public servants. Especially on an island that collects a large proportion of the Adlantic’s presipitation. Its like charging an Eskimo for snow!

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    • Totally agree, the water system in this country is a joke. Simply throwing money away as we are, needs serious upgrade or a water harvesting system. Feckin’ stuff falls every day around us.

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    • That’s the problem Nick, a lot of businesses have not paid their water bills and the local councils have not chased them down effectively. And that’s where your property tax is going to support.

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    • Alien8 12/01/13 #

      Barry’s point is where this argument should start – water is not a scarce and valuable resource, it is permanently under the ground and in the air. The chemicals that they throw into clean water and the storage and supply are valuable, but not to the level of the proposed costs. For all the good that the IMF point out (medicine costs etc), the very first thing that the IMF do in every country they loan to is to introduce charging for water; this allows for a permanent high source of revenue for a mandatory low cost resource. Every tax can be reviewed (why are we paying for non-service supplying councils?), but if you have a normality in paying high costs for water, it is impossible to change.

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    • Water harvesting system? That’s how water is collected. What they want to be aiming for is desalination.

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    • Very true Dave, the payment rates in some authority areas is in the low 30%. Big business uses a far higher proportion of water than standard residential housing. I remember reading that about 45% of water was lost through burst pipes, business used almost 40%, the remainder was residential. Yet we are expect to pay way over the odds for the amount we consume.

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    • We’re already taxed for it. And the amount of the stuff we have is ludicrous. All it needs is effective management, and they’re getting enough taxes from my payslip to cover that.

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    • ‘Necessary evil’? Do you really think they are going to use the money made to make the water better or improve the service? No! They are going to line their own pockets and/or use the money to pay off a debt we don’t owe.. Bord Gais is up for sale so whichever company ends up owning them will own the water division and it’ll more than likely be a non Irish company.The water is poison anyway so wake up or go back to sleep.

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  • So we are going to pay for the water we use as well as the water we dont, leaks and service charge.

    Okay want other services do we get that we dont pay for? Well how much money is spent in the health service to pay for self inflected injuries in the treatment of smokers? Should we not add that up and then divide it by the number of boxes of cigs sold per year then add that to the price of the box?

    What about the money wasted treating our drunks in the health service, should we not do the same, add that cost to the price of the pint?

    I dont smoke or drink, so why should I pay for something to be provided to others?

    I bet I get lots of thumbs down for this but how many will be from smokers & drinkers?

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    • I don’t smoke either,but is there not already over 80% of the cost of cigarettes made up of tax and excise?

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    • Norman

      My point is if people are paying for water from which money will be used to cover the cost of providing the service, then why should others not pay the costs for the services they receive?

      Drivers already pay more per year in VAT, Duty, VRT, Insurance levies & Road Tax than is spent on roads in this country.

      So why should smokers & drinkers not pay more for the additional health services they receive?

      It does not even have to be called a tax, call it a Levi, just like the extra money they are taking out of our pay packets to pay for failed bankers or from our house & car insurance to pay for a quarry owners gambling.

      As I said I knew I would be getting a lot of thumbs down, and so I did. So I guess the air polluting cancer spreading smokers and vomit producing drunks get their victory while the rest of us continue to pay for their health needs.

      Why not call it a levi

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  • The great thing about water is that you can cut it off and people usually come around right and drop their petty objections to the fact that nothing comes free right about the time they’re standing in front of their toilet with a glass…

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    • Apparently, they can’t disconnect your service for non payment because it is a fundamental human right. Basically, you die without it as we all know. So, it won’t be disconnected but they’ll have to come up with a way of taking money from non payers (of which, I will be one).

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    • So says the UN… Access to clean water is a human right, however does not mean pumped to your sink 24 hours a day, that’s a tax paying citizens privilege. It could mean water between 6-8am or it could mean walking to the end of your street to stand in line with a bucket…

      Just ask the population of sub-Saharan Africa

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    • Andrew, Water can’t be turned off but the pressure can be lowered so only a trickle of water comes through the pipes.

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    • “Access to clean water is a human right, however does not mean pumped to your sink 24 hours a day, that’s a tax paying citizens privilege.”

      All citizens pay tax andrew, and that tax pays for our water. Now, if your friends in fine gael want to steal that tax and hand it to bondholders, it does not mean that we should pay a second time for the ‘privllege’ of having it pumped to our taps.

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  • It is embarrassing how rubbish we have been as a nation at managing simple things like the supply of water, disposal of waste, septic tanks, banks who have some concept of risk management, regulations, efficiency in the health care system…. That’s just the tip of the iceberg. How could we have been so incompetent.

    Thank god the Troika are here to put the boot in and get our infrastructure up to a 1st world standard.

    Painful process all the same, as the working population have major steps to take to upskill, but we should be a far better country for it over the course of the next decade of immense change and striving for higher standards in everything we do.

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    • Nope ,we’ll be just higher taxed and run by more incompetence. Cranking up charges on families that simply don’t have the money is not the answer to getting infrastructure in place. Giving away Oil, Gas, and other natural resources to third party organisations that will in turn make trillions of euro – and I’m not exaggerating, I mean trillions as in more than 10x our debt – without charge isn’t helping.

      The problem is that if you’re in the elite class in Ireland, your taxes and charges are kept as low as possible, while the working classes pay easily 50% and more in taxes. It’s the working class, the poor class, and those unable to fend for themselves that this government attacks first in all the times that it has come a-looking for money.

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  • As usual the Irish want everything but will pay for nothing. Water charges are common around the world and we -should be glad to be in a country where we have plentiful supplies. Go to sub Saharan Africa I’m sure people there would gladly pay a small portion of what little money they make for a well to keep their family away from drought.

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    • Sub Saharan Africa gets very little if any rain, Ireland is flooded with the stuff. Comparing oranges and apples.

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    • another one of those arguments – everyone else has them so we have to have them too ,

      firstly we have had household water for free for as far back as I can remember , why should we have to pay for water just because someone somewhere else in the world has to pay for it ? it doesn’t make sense.

      secondly , the property tax is a “new tax” but you are getting nothing “new” for your money only the satisfaction that oh well some guy in a foreign land has to pay it , so its good we have to pay it too … bla bla bla …rubbish ,

      the real reason we have to pay all these new taxes and charges is because the EU Commission wants us to , simple as ,

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    • We pay a stupid amount of tax as it is – and the taxes we do pay are in place and at that level for the very reason that we are not taxed on stupid things that we have in abundance.

      Second, I know you’re trying to get a rise, but saying “the Irish want everything but will pay for nothing” is just plain stupid. An average professional worker pays on average up to 52% of their income in taxes and charges; but earn in the top 10% of incomes in the country and you’ll be paying 29% or less (according to Noonan himself). There is simply no other EU country where the disparity in taxation is so huge between the “have” and “have not” of the society in question.

      Third, let me understand something. Sub-Saharan Africa is a continent off the EQUATOR. The average summer day reaches the peak of heat in the world; the average rainfall is practically negligible. And you, bright sunshine that you are, compare this place with practically no common rainfall, which reaches above 40 Celsius on an average hot day; with Ireland that rarely ever reaches 20 Celsius (annual mean of 10 Celsius) in the peak of summer and has average rainfall of nearly 8x that of Sub-Saharan Africa. Ok then.

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