It is indeed about what people themselves would decide, whats sad is its clear not everyone wants an actual democratic vote on this subject and that’s evident from the thumbs down on my suggestion of a vote on this subject above.

Or if you include the rusty coat hangers too, the numbers would skyrocket. And they’re ultra accessible.

All of those women who have entered the chemist and asked for the ‘emergency’ or ‘morning after’ pill could very well find themselves in that group Lisa.

Good point Bert. It’s seems these people are quite selective in their support for the “right to life”. But of course their campaign and that of the broader right-wing, social conservative movement has never really been about abortion in itself, rather it is part of a broader agenda to force the entire population to live by their version of morality. You see the same usual suspects campaign against equal rights for same-sex couples, divorce, secular education etc.

such a daft comment – did you ask all 8000 people on the pro-life march did the ever also march against war/banks etc etc.

I plenty of people who have marched on both types n more.

I was marching today, as I have for anti-war protests. Whatever protest I go to, and I am beset selective, I carry an “on-topic” banner. I do not bring a pro-life banner to an anti-war march, nor would I take an anti-war banner to a pro-life march. Unlike a lot of lefties, I don’t want to muddle the topic of the protest with anarchist/water-tax/free-Palistine/Shell-to-Sea issues all thrown in together on a march. That’s ridiculous.

Paul, Im Atheist and I LOVE YOU…..bet that gets right up Fergal ‘the freak’ O’Neill’s nose! I’m done arguing with the loony so Im just going to have a laugh at his expense now…its too late for intelligent conversation not that fergal has come out with any.

Well said Layla. Every woman should have the choice and I don’t think it’s going to open the floodgates. Nobody makes that decision lightly.

Well said paul.
Just waiting to to see what tripe falls from fergals mouth now.

All Catholics are pro-lifers but not all pro-lifers are Catholics. Indeed not all pro-lifers are religious. In fact they come from all beliefs and none. Perhaps the non-religious and atheistic pro-lifers issue more of a threat and challenge to you as that seems to be something that you could not explain away so easily.

As I said before, the right to life is a fundamental human right independent of race, gender or religion. It is the one right on which all others depend. I choose to defend it from a Catholic point of view others defend it from other vantages.

Thanks for the insult Jason. You are obviously slipping into more comfortable territory now.

I see Jason’s comment not so much as an insult but….how can I put this…..SPOT ON! Fergal I think you have successfully proved to (right minded) thejournal.ie readers that you are completely nuts as are most religious freaks however I’m sure there will be lots of delusional reinforcement, to make you feel better about yourself, when you go and listen to your local pedophile spout nonsense in church on Sunday.

so windy

1) I find it interesting that so much of theJournal.ie picked out those from a particular religion who marched among the 8,000. Are we really to believe that the 8,000 were made up of religious individuals, where as those against were all well dressed types? A great example of editorial bias in the pics above.

2) Surely a baby in the womb is representative of human life. Or do human rights not matter pre-birth?

3) Not all those in the march were Catholic I’m sure, just like all the pro abortion individuals were atheist or secular I’m sure. Sadly Catholicism is always used as a cheap retort against those who may not be 100% against abortion. I also think fergal debated well above and there is nothing more rude than comments such as Glenn’s above when says “Fergal ‘the freak’ O’Neill’s nose! I’m done arguing with the loony so Im just going to have a laugh at his expense now” where he decides not to debate and just throw around cheap, belittling insults instead. Successful debate wins people over to your side, not nasty, petty, childish insults.

Seriously. I couldn’t believe it when I heard it.
Then again, ignorance tends to show, y’know?

Yes Donal all agree that evil has been perpetrated by a minority and it is in every occupation and denomination. Not all Catholic priests have acted with evil intentions. The majority are good men and these good men need someone to speak up for them.

In fact doctors have sexually abused but I bet you still go to the hospital, teachers have sexually abused but you still send your kids to school, dentsits have sexually abused and you still get your teeth checked and treated. The abuse rate amongst the unemployed is much higher than it is amongst the clergy but of course you don’t talk about that and it does not fit your prejudices.

Your generalisations are tired and your fixation on the Catholic Church worrying.

Fergal O’Neill, your being perhaps somewhat selective.

Doctors, teachers etc may have abused but with priests there has been a systematic coverup from the top, the church has been fully aware of the abuses and all they did was move people around. The church has undermined itself from the highest authority it has within its own systems.

Your comparisons to the religious abuse are not similar at all.

To go back on topic, do you not find it extremely hypocritical that the catholic church is trying to tell people how they should or should not have sex or have children (or not) yet most of these priests and nuns have either none or very little experience in the actual act of sex (except the minority who abused perhaps) and none will have had sex for procreation and have gone on to actually raise a family

In other words these people have not experience the most basic instincts of our species and do not even attempt t lead a real life but yet they stand on their alters and tell people how to lead their lives, only one word can describe it all and that’s “Pathetic”.

,

No cover ups in and by the HSE??

Fergal;, thought you might try to make that comparison,

The thing is the HSE like anything in Ireland that’s not religious can be controlled by the people of Ireland, this means we can get rid of people in power that can easily be replaced. We can also change laws so if we don’t like say abortions being illegal we can vote to make them legal for example.

I think you’ll agree the ability to change laws is great in any country that has such freedoms to vote and change laws and goverments :)

Now your comparing churches to say the HSE, the problem is the church, pope etc is nothing like the HSE so its an pointless comparison.

In the church if you don;t like the views of the pope you have to wait till he dies or is killed off by somebody, if you don’t like the rules (teachings) then good luck changing them because if they ever do change they’ll change with the speed of a glacier.

As I’ve factually states above the church knew of the abuses that went on and all they did was try to cover them up and that worked for them for years, many of the people that knew are still in authority and that frankly shows the church fails to take action.

You’ve tried to make comparisons to doctors, very good however again not accurate.

If a doctor abuses he/she would loose their title, if a priest abuses the vatican are extremely unlikely to strip his title, this shows lack of respect and action to the victims….you know the children that the priest abused…the very same children you care about so much in this whole debate

amazing that your suggestion of a democratic vote got so many thumbs down..!! says it all.

Frank, doesn’t it just! :)

I suppose it’s a case of “careful now we don’t want people to think for themselfs”,

thankfully the days of people being just sheep in this country is coming to an end very quickly

I am pro life. But I do agree with you, put it to a vote. That’s the idea behind democracy.

Barry you haven’t a clue. It’s the pro-abortion crowd that don’t want a vote and that want abortion brought in through the European courts. End of the day – 8000 marching against abortion, paltry 100 or so screaming for the right to abortion – pretty clear who would win the vote.

sure thing allovernow, you just keep thinking that to yourself, it’ll make it all better

Seems at least some of them still wish the child should be born if its an incest or rape case,

Though its hard to get a straight answer from them on this one, so in fairness it could be more then just some that think its ok for such babes to be born

But sadly state policy in recent years has been to encourage pregnant women to keep their own children, rather than encouraging adoption which can often benefit the child and the childless parents (whether straight or gay). I know two adopted children and although I can’t say it with 100% certainty, I’m sure there’s a pretty good chance that the 2 children would never have been born had adoption been legal in Ireland and equally their parents would still be childless (both wanted to adopt additional children, but weren’t able to).

It is farcical that we continue to deny the reality of Irish abortion and bring in legislation in line with various referendum results and court judgements, but I’m sure your American friend would also be shocked to learn about archaic and offensive laws still on the books in some US states (mainly in the South surprise surprise!) that outlaw the likes of sodomy, cohabitation and unmarried sex. There are even attempts by far right politicians to bring murder charges against women who miscarry or whose babies are born dead. That is how poisonous the abortion debate and the “culture wars” have become in America. We need to avoid that approach like the plague quite frankly.

the people who harp on about pro-life, the people that continue to deny that life is complex and cannot just face the fact that abortion will always be a reality whether girls do it here or the UK are generally religious folk who’s narrow mindedness perpetuates racism, homophobia, sexism, secrecy and other stuff like genocide. not a group you wanna fall in with.

Jello, you seem to have some anger management issues. Perhaps you should speak with someone to see if you can’t work things out a bit. It might help.

If you want to see anger management, you should’ve seen some of the people who were shouting xenophobic remarks at my friend just because she dared to be a visible foreigner in a demonstration. Xenophobic remarks shouted by people in the so-called ‘pro-life’ march, which was attended by several known racists, well-known gay-bashers, etc.

If you stood somewhere confronted with so many people who didn’t want you to exist, you’d also be angry.

So judges are medical experts too now……..maybe we should put them in the A&E’s on the 11th and make them do some work for there ridiculous wages!

Jell, I just have to say it…….. you are an embarrassment to all women. Your logic is as warped as a curly wurly.

Like it or not most of your so called ‘LGBT’ folk happen to be the most intolerant, hate filled individuals who are ready to cry out at any given occasion about the intolerance of others towards them. Like it or not being told you are living an immoral lifestyle is not intolerance it is using the gift of free speech correctly.

I have had my fill of their crap and the immoral practices that they try to parade about as being ‘normal’. Their practices are about as normal as snow in July.

By the way all the Christian denominations have been among the most tolerant with you lot for very many years now and it’s still not enough.

Next year it is planned that there will be a fairly sizeable counter demonstration against your so called ‘gay pride’. Let’s see what tolerance is all about then.

Oh don’t forget the Kleenex. Something tells me you will be crying again……….

Cindy- we’re ‘intolerant’, because we object when we’re described as immoral? We’re hate-filled, because we’re sick to death of being described as perverts?

And where, precisely, is this ‘tolerance’ shown LGBT people by most Christian denominations? Sorry, but last I heard these were the groups keeping our families from legal recognition? The groups who have led for it to still be perfectly legal for teachers in our country to be fired for being LGBT? The groups whose rhetoric incites the kind of anti-LGBT bullying and discrimination that lead to LGBT people having a suicide rate three times higher than the general population? The groups who attempt, time and time again, to scapegoat us for their own crimes- and, yes, genuine perversions- against our most vulnerable people?

And you say that WE are intolerant, because we dare to speak up against you? And you say that WE are immoral, because of our consensual, loving, adult relationships?

Seriously, Cindy. The majority of LGBT people in this society are used to being denigrated. Somehow, I doubt that anyone who is openly LGBT in this society- with everything that entails- is going to be driven to tears by your counter demonstration. It’s no more hate than we experience all the time.

@cindy: Intolerance – You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Isolde, thank you for that.

As someone who would be pro-choice and who has gone to pro-choice rally’s I would say that it have more to do that there are a lot of arseholes that attend that want to act all agro. There is a sizeable element that see it as their thing, their protest, something to define themselves by.

Its one of the few comments on here that does make sense Jason and you are correct, the choice should be for the individual to make and nothing to do with anyone else…anyone screaming for the law to fall one way or the other on this issue is simply trying to impose their own moral agenda on the issue…that said if there was a referendum I would vote in favour of abortion and at lease give those who want to have an abortion the right to have one here in their own country with shame or recrimination and not have to travel abroad.

You cannot be anti abortion and pro-choice. Make up your mind and stop living a dichotomy.

Why not?
How about you worry about your own morals and allow us to do the same

I am anti abortion but feel that others should be able to decied for themselves.

Who i am to say that im right and the others are wrong?

Hence, im anti abortion but pro-choice

As I said dichotomous thinking.

@ Fergal just because someone holds an opinion a subject does not give them the right to enforce their opinion on anyone else so therefore Jason’s comments make absolute sense and are most human, while he is against abortion he sees that he has no right to impose his will over anyone and the sooner all you pro one thing or the other learn this the better. You all would be far more effective if you protested against the likes of the EU/IMF or the cuts to SNA’s etc. and keep your noses out of other people’s private business.

PS in my last comment I ment to say “without shame or recrimination”.

Fiona, If I were to tell you that you are a product of rape and you now had the option to cease to exist, or continue on with your life as it is now, which would you choose?

Abortion robs two individuals of children; the one to whom the child is gifted and the one that cannot conceive naturally. Both suffer emotional distress.

Adoption brings closure and healing to one and the joy of new life to another.

What’s wrong with adoption???

I think that abortion is wrong in all circumstances except for when the life of the mother is in danger. Then and only then should it be allowed. In Ireland there are normally only 2 or 3 child-birth related deaths per year, so it’s not a huge issue. However I think that anybody who would abort a baby with special needs is incredibly cruel and disgusting. And even in the case of rape or incest, life is life even though that life may have been created in disgusting and cruel circumstances.

Agreed Padraig. Just look at the wonderful achievements being made in Athens at the moment!! The medals for Ireland are flowing at the Special Olympics! Well done to all!!!

@ Fergal — That is a ridiculous question. I certainly wouldn’t think a child given to me as a product of rape or incest as a gift. Quite the contrary. Which is what women who finds themselves in that situation feel. They don’t feel like they’ve been blessed with the gift of life! And until you stand in the shoes of a woman who faces that decision you have no right to judge her. That is what is happening here. People are far too quick to judge and inflict their own moral beliefs onto everyone else. I agree with you on the issue of adoption. Having been there myself I do believe that adoption is a wonderful thing. But that is a choice too. And everyone should have that choice. But, believe me, to give up a child after carrying it for 9 months has serious affects on your mental health. It by no means brings closure and healing. Again I state I am against abortion. Some women down below have been aghast at my suggestion that some women use it as a form of contraception. But sadly some women do. There are women out there that have had more than one abortion. As I said it is as easy not to get pregnant as it is to.

Just wondering if you would class yourself as one of those kids? If not, how do you define a “fooked up” kid?

No ‘Is_Mise’. In the real world conception happens when egg and sperm meet. Look it up sometime. The morning after pill is an abortifacient.

Abortifacients are actions, devices, or medication that terminate a pregnancy that has already begun. I would say that most of those who take it are unaware of that fact and that therefore statistically the numbers are very high.

Nothing archaic there.

By the way I am pro-choice too expect that my pro-choice views exist before sex occurs.

Caught up as you are in a frenzy of ill-informed self righteousness, you have missed the point – it’s not just at women you should point the finger; only the severely deluded believe in immaculate conception :-)

Where’s the ill informed? BTW I didn’t miss the point, I just decide to go easy on the intellectually challenged and the ignorant.

@ Is_Mise what has a religious idea of immaculate conception to do with abortion?

The right to life is not based on Religion. Its a Human right above religion. Even 1st year doctor knows when life starts. Nobody has the right to end life.

Just because society makes it legal, does not mean its morally right.

In America medical insurance companies are pushing abortion on women who have deformed, impaired or ill children. They don’t want to pay for them. Its also the same in certain countries in europe when a women has a downs baby there is a strong push to advise the mother to terminate. As if a person with disabilities does not have a inherent indignation that does not depend on anyone else. The person is. Abortion removes the value of the person from Society.

So fergal are condoms even allowed to be used in your world?

Or is your version of pro-choice simply that people should not have sex?

Now if your a religious man remember you should be supporting the pope on the no condom usage so be careful…”if” your religious

Yes. I do my very best to live my life with Catholic principles and I apologise to no one for that. Therefore I come to this argument from a Catholic perspective which I know is not in season with many people at all these days. It’s not easy but I have decided for it and will defend it. I do believe that the Catholic teaching on love and marriage is something very beautiful and again am ready to be vilified for it. (Just watch the comments now that will flow about scandals etc…)

I believe that people should make a well considered choice to have sex or not and if that ends in the conception of a new life then there is no choice but to see the pregnancy through. Then there is the choice to be a parent to that child or place it up for adoption for someone else to parent.

In one sense abortion is the fruit of failed contraception so they are intrinsically linked.

Fergal..your comment “I do my very best to live my life with Catholic principles and I apologise to no one for that” says it all really. Small minded and cant think for yourself, so much so that you take the word of a fictional book and a pedophile ring as the truth…. maybe you should get some therapy to try dispel the delusional episode you appear to be stuck in. Just one question….whats Santa bringing you for christmas? Whats that you say, you don’t believe in Santa, but why, there is as much evidence for him as there is for god.

Glenn, see my comment to you above.

Fergal, no….you see your still trying to tell people what to do….you cant help it can you.

NOT when it means choosing to murder.

I am anti-electrocution. But I believe that you should have the choice to electrocute your wife should you so wish to do so.

Hope you see just how ridiculous the above statement is. No different for the pro-choice, anti-abortion dichotomists.

Except its completely different Fergal….there is nothing dichotomist about it…as I said previously just because you have an opinion does not mean you have a right to enforce that opinion on everyone else. Maybe this is all a bit much for you to comprehend but thrust me Martin Matthews, Jason Doyle and I understand this concept and see its humanitarian merits, so don’t worry your little head about it anymore…you’ll give yourself a migraine (its like a headache but worse)

Glenn your problem is not wanting to listen to the opinion of others. Not any where have I enforced my opinion on any one else. I have chosen to state my beliefs clearly. Straight talking is something a lot of people are no longer used to or tolerant of (as can be seen in this thread).

When you have no good informed logic to offer, you choose to descend into being condescending and patronising. I find that a little embarrassing for you.

By the way, trust does not have a ‘h’ in it. ;)

By voting no to abortion, which I’m quite sure you will, you will be enforcing your small minded will on other people and denying them there right to an abortion, so yes you are enforcing your opinion, is that clear enough for you! I am straight talking to as you can see, except I talk sense, whereas you on the other had dont. As for being condescending and patronising, I do find its the best way to deal with religious loopers like you. Finally if I want to spell trust with a h, I will do so regardless of what way you think it should be spelt. See there you go again trying to impose your will on everyone..tut tut. ;)

I always a amazed why people think a child is not a child in a woman’s womb? Abortion on Demand is wrong, it denies the rights of the child.

With all due respect, your definition of “winning” is quite strange. Public opinion in Ireland has become much more liberal on the abortion issue in recent years, a trend that is also evident where other social issues are concerned. Indeed, a strong majority of voters now support legal abortion in a number of circumstances that go beyond the narrow remit of the X case ruling. Those who marched today against a woman’s right to choose in no way reflect modern Ireland. (poll results – http://www.irishhealth.com/article.html?id=16971)
The so-called “pro life” movement needs to consume a good dose of humble pie. The 1983 amendment resulted in a legal quagmire and the idea that inserting a simple set of words into the Constitution could solve an issue as complex as abortion was never credible. But thankfully, the Ireland of 2011 bears no resemblance to what existed in ’83 when we were under the thumb of the oppressive catholic church. Indeed, in every referendum held on this issue since 1992, the progressive side of the argument has prevailed and it’s about time that the political establishment caught up with public opinion. A good place to start would be to introduce legislation to give effect to the now 20 year old X Case ruling.

@Adam Long. Having the right to life is a basic human right … It has NOTHING to do with the RC church,,, or any church… Sticking a needle in the neck of a child at 26 weeks and aborting like is done in the UK is murder.. plain and simple.

@Alex Simon – actually you are wrong about the legal time limit in the UK, which in any event, is at the higher end of the scale in European terms. Also, the vast majority of abortions happen in the first trimester – that is, in countries where abortion is safe and legal. But as other posters have pointed out, women will always find ways to end unwanted pregnancies and abortion is already a reality for Irish women- we just choose to export the problem to the UK. The “pro life” campaign is on the wrong side of this issue, both from a moral and practical point of view.

@Adam Long. Not matter what age. The right to life is a basic human right. Just because some women want to murder their children, does not mean we need to make it law on the Island of Ireland.

@ Alex simon. I hope youve never masturbated. Think of all the life wasted then

Ps. Its a joke

Not a chance there were 8,000 there. Definitely smaller than previous years. The pro-choice counter-demo was also significantly larger than previously.

As for “aggressive”, I saw Gardaí on numerous occasions have to restrain provocative anti-choicers, didn’t see a single incident of the reverse.

Looking forward to that legislation for X and ABC? I am.

Because the right to life is more important than money

So Catholics are not allowed to voice an opinion?

Well they are Fergal but that doesn’t mean that sane people have to listen to them!

Why not let the Child decide? Let it be born.. It it doesn’t want to life, then kill it.
Your argument does not cut.
A life is a life is a life. and the right to life in itself it a human right. (and this has nothing to do with religion)

Pilib………….50% of the new childs genetic info is from the father.

How dare you reduce the fathers role in the whole affair.

You are such a disappointment to men and fathers.

Well said Monica.

Monica Timmins just so we cover all comparisons here,

Question: You know a teenage girl of say 14 who has been systematically been abused by her dad for years and eventually she becomes pregnant as part of this abuse.

The girl is depressed, suicidal and feels just dirty and abused on a daily basis even without her dad being around anymore due to to because of what her dad has caused to grow inside her.

Outside of the MASSIVE psychological issues she will experience for the next 9 months and infact the rest of her life her body is healthy in respect of giving birth.

You think this is ok to do you?

Y’know, I don’t get why people assume pro choice means for abortions.. I believe if somebody wishes to abort a baby that’s for their conscience to decide. personally I’m pro choice, but I have a preference, I’d rather a child were put up for adoption than aborted. It’s very easy to take moral high ground, but if it hasn’t happened to you, you can’t really make fair judgement.

Question: what if the woman you mentioned was pregnant following being raped incestuosly?

Matthew Fitzpatrick, clearly the women should have the choice to terminate rather then deal with the MASSIVE psychological issues for the rest of her life.

“Question: If you knew a woman who was pregnant, who had 8 kids already, three who were deaf, two who were blind, one mentally retarded, and she had syphilis; would you recommend that she have an abortion?
If you answered yes you killed Beethoven”
Actually your argument here make no sense. First of all I would have recommended she divorce her syphilis riddled husband. But you cannot compare life in 1770 to today. I assume Maria, Beethovan mother would have liked to choose her own husband at a reasonable age, she might have enjoyed going to college or having a career and passion of her own, rather than loose three of her children in infancy because childhood mortality was that bad.
Who is to say if she would have chosen to have an abortion as I’m sure she was not given the choice to get pregnant in the first place. Your reasoning is faulty also because it denies the rights of thousands of women who have been lost to history due to their reproductive organs. What about Beethovens sisters who were never allowed to be famous musicians?

It’s interesting that you use the word person. Too often the argument is made that life begins at conception (implying that abortion is wrong because it is destroying a life), or that a foetus is human (and it is wrong to kill a human), but you have homed in on the relevant word: person. It is because I am a person that killing me would be wrong, not because I am alive, or because I am human. I am a person because I have a central nervous system capable of feeling pain and a brain capable of thinking about my own existence. It is quite evident that an embryo does not qualify as a person, and while it’s difficult to draw a clear line as personhood emerges gradually, we can confidently say that a foetus in the first two trimesters contains none of the qualities necessary to be a person and therefore cannot and should not be granted the rights we grant to persons.

Dear Eamon,
The 300 number for the pro-choice camp also comes from Garda estimates.
As for the media, I guess a lot of journalists no longer see the point in covering a bunch of zealots who shout ‘murderer’ at young people, try to non-consensually ‘bless us’ for our murderous ways, and call us Nazis and minimise the Shoah (Holocaust). One person who was aggressive to you doesn’t compensate for all the aggression, the insults, the pushing, the shouting that I saw from people who allegedly ‘love life’.
The times are changing, and you have to change with the times. Old Ireland is gone. It’s a sick state of affairs when the children of this country are forced into a system of education ran completely by a Church that hates gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender people, hates pre-marital sex (something considered NORMAL by the entire world), and which preaches hatred towards doctors who provide safe abortions. I can only hope that hate-based preaching by extremist christians stops and gets called what it is: hate speech.
As to your claim about racism, yes, the pro-life camp is perfectly happy to have people from outside of Ireland in the rally when they agree with them. But the neo-nazi roots of Youth Defence run deep, once again: http://afaireland.yolasite.com/barrett2.php
I will not forget the anti-immigrant, xenophobic bile my friend was subjected to for being visibly non-Irish. This is a fact.
I will also not forget how, leaving OutHouse in Dublin city centre, it is not uncommon to run into some of the scum that come out of The Life House, who love shouting homophobic insults at us. Fascist scum, get off our streets!
Also, the irony was not lost on those of us who are LGBT, when we heard the ‘pro-life’ buses playing “Don’t Stop Me Now” by Queen. It’s pretty fucking rich when a rally, made up of people who campaign against the rights of LGBT individuals, plays a song by a well known, proud bisexual man. This is further showing the ignorance of the so-called ‘pro-life’ camp, who cannot even do basic research about the music they play at their bigoted marches.

Fantastic… Problem is that it will be seen as “those catholic traditionalists” When the right to life is not a religious issue. Its a Human right.

Interesting enough, Russia is also looking at changing abortion laws given their falling population.

Agreed Alex (although Catholicism might have some little part to play ;) )

Poland is still very much a catholic country so that determines votes which is sad as church should not be invoked with state.

Ireland thankfully is changing and the church and religion has alot less control.

I note with interest that fergal doesn’t like women only voting on this matter due to the DNA share, so I take it then fergal that you then agree a vote on this matter by all the people of ireland of voting age is best?

So let’s get your comments on the vote, your quick to condem people here but you’ve yet to comment on my point above about a vote on this issue.

Both you and I know that religion and your views won’t win such a vote, this freedom for people to make up their own minds must scare the crap out of you :)

“You then agree a vote on this matter by all the people of ireland of voting age is best?”

@Barry: Of course isn’t that the foundation of democracy? To be honest that is a bit of a stupid question. There is supposed to be a children’s rights referendum coming up soon. Perhaps in your world it would be best to let only children vote on it huh??

Obviously the panic stricken pro-choice side now realise that it is only by breaching democratic principles that they have any chance of making gains.

In Poland you can easily find a doctor to give you an illegal abortion. They advertise in some magazines/on the internet etc. And anyway Poland has 6 borders, Germany, Czech, Slovakia, Ukraine, Belarus and Russia…..most of which have legal abortions and are only a small car-ride/train journey away.
You’re comments Fergal are not very well informed or thought out, do all the thumbs down you’re getting not make you think that you may be wrong on this?

Damnit, I had a rather marvellous comment all written out, but it got eaten. Bah! But here’s the gist- you’ll have to live without the incredible prose of the last one, though.

Here’s my issue:
“Nobody can claim to be truly liberal unless they also respect the rights of pre-born people. Life starts with a big bang and shuts down at death. No other cataclysmic event occurs in our lifetimes. This is THE inconvenient fact for many pro-choicers.”

I disagree, and I’d like to explain why.

You say that ‘life starts with a big bang’. However, all available evidence disagrees with this. Life doesn’t start with a big bang- it starts gradually, in bits and pieces, it puts itself together.
Of course, it depends on how you define ‘life’. If you define it as ‘a genetically new thing’, then yes, it does start at fertilisation. However, if you do that you rapidly end up in some logical oddities- particularly since that fertilised egg could turn into more than one individual. Considering that, what is the difference (bar location) between that fertilised egg and the many, many stem cells in my body and yours? They each have the potential to become a separate human being, given a certain set of future events.

If the stem cells in my body and yours aren’t independent human beings, then neither are fertilised ova.

In that case, though, what are they? They are, as I stated above, something which has the potential, in the future, to become people. The process of becoming a person is a gradual one. The ability to think and to feel does not ‘switch on’ in an instant- there is no precise moment where there is a person where there was not one before. There is, instead, a massive grey area. We ‘wake up’ to our lives slowly, not suddenly. On one side of this grey area is that fertilised ovum, and on the other is a baby.

With regards abortion, there are therefore two major questions. The first relates to the personhood of the fetus. The second to situations where the (perceived) interests of the fetus are at odds with the (stated) interests of the pregnant woman.

When it comes to the first question, I look to what we know about fetal development. We know that in the first trimesters, the fetus simply has not developed the ability to feel or to think- it has not yet become a conscious being. The ability to feel, to think, to be conscious, does not arise until later in pregnancy. The personhood of the fetus, therefore, is a thing which in the first trimester has certainly not yet developed, which has in the third trimester begun to coalesce, and in the second trimester- well, it depends on when you’re talking about. Three months is a long time, and I’m no biologist.

Here, however, is where we come to the second question. In a case where the perceived interests of the fetus are at odds with the stated interests of the woman, what should we do? On this, I have two major points to make:

We have a situation where a definite person- someone who can think, who can feel, who can deliberate consequences and make decisions regarding her future- is at odds with a fetus who has yet to develop those abilities. It is obvious to me that here, consideration should be given to the one who is a person now, as opposed to the person who does not fully exist yet.

There is also the issue of bodily integrity. It’s not that the woman simply has to do things for another in order to bring it into existence. She has to give up her sovereign right to her own body for months on end. There is no other situation where a person is forced to give up their body for the life of another. We may think that, say, blood and organ donation are good and moral things to do- I certainly do- but we do not force people to do them. We encourage them, we support them, and we respect people’s wishes regarding them. There is no other situation where we force a person to give another the use of their organs- of their entire body- for months on end.

“…a child is a child regardless of how many weeks the woman is pregnant! ”

Is this a chicken? – http://www.messy-chef.com/images/egg.jpg

No, it’s not. Therefore this is not a child. – http://tinyurl.com/666ygth

Why should it, your all so selfish and so desperate to enforce your delusion supported beliefs on the 4,590,000 people that didn’t turn up for your pointless rally!

On the other side of the scale, take pretty much everything you just said and apply it to incest or rape case and the inability for a women to have an abortion in such an instance.
If we don’t allow an abortion in such an instance we are failing these women.

Again you could also apply much of what you said to any women who wants to have an abortion but can’t but you could also add, job issues, money issues etc to the list.
We are failing these women too if they want an abortion and we don’t let them.

Its these women’s choice not yours, so give them that choice

You need a licence to drive a car, but they’ll let anybody be a parent.. fair?

Your whole comment is hateful bile. But what specifically do I find hate speech and incitement to violence?–in your own words Cindy.

“Next year it is planned that there will be a fairly sizeable counter demonstration against your so called ‘gay pride’. Let’s see what tolerance is all about then.
Oh don’t forget the Kleenex. Something tells me you will be crying again……….”

Would you like to explain your comment “lets see what tolerance is about then.” in that case? because if thats not a threat, I’ll eat my feather boa.

Both sides are now giving you red thumbs :-)

Got any evidence to go with that rhetoric?

I would not turn up to any pro one thing or the other and try imposing my will on people, I will simply vote yes when the country has a referendum and allow people to decide what they want to do for themselves as I suspect the majority of right minded people will do. If more of you came out in protest against things that actually matter, maybe the country would not be under the control of the EU/IMF, and maybe we wouldn’t be paying back debts that are nothing to do with us, which as a result more and more children are being forced into poverty over…these are examples of issues that actually matter by the way.

Funny, all of us who were at the counter demonstration got there all on our own. We weren’t being bussed in from all around the island.
How about, next time ’round, you fund a few buses for us from the rest of the country? If you want to use numbers-at-demos as a legitimate marker of popular agreement with your point of view, that is.

“A safe abortion’ is an oxymoron”

Citation needed.
A real citation, now. Not just something you made up.