You reckon the BBC are against Scottish independence then, Alan?

Reckon? It’s pretty much an accepted fact in Scotland that the Beeb are against Independence. Even Unionists will admit that.

Their bias has sparked a campaign against them

http://newsnetscotland.com/index.php/affairs-scotland/5440-anti-bias-campaign-group-announce-second-bbc-scotland-demo

any chance of us getting into the United kingdom?? :-)

When the debt crisis was kicking off there was talking of allowing Ireland to take sterling and be given a seat on the Monetary Policy Committee, but it never really got anywhere because it was expected that the Irish would reject such an offer.

I disagree. The minister’s comments were unfortunate because he failed to foresee how they would be read by Catalans, not because there’s something intrinsically wrong with them. As he also said, españolizarles meant to make them feel as proud to be Spanish as they’re of being Catalan. I don’t see any attack here to Catalan culture. The issue is that the minister was unaware of the sentiment in Catalonia where the position seems to be about rejecting everything that is Spanish. An that does feel like an attack to Spanish culture, to be honest, as it is more about rejecting anything Spanish rather than accepting what there’s in common (many, many things by the way).

I support a referendum so people in Catalonia can decide but Spain is simply letting Catalans know of the consequences independence could have. The UK isn’t much different as they have already mentioned that Scotland’s currency would not be sterling and that there would have to be compensation for subsidies that Scotland has enjoyed this far. This, as bad as it sounds, must be told so that all voters can make an informed decision. If your desire for independence is strong, you should go ahead despite of the economic consequences. I respect the will of Catalans who seek independence simply because not sharing with the rest of Spain; they’re entitled to it. However, an independent Catalonia would only be competition to Spain so once separated, I fail to see why Spain should show any kindness to a country that abandons Spain when thing go wrong. I think this is perfectly respectable too.

Don’t blame army generals for making the comments they’ve made: they all had to swear they would defend the Spanish constitution and that’s just what they’re doing. That’s why it’s important that Catalonia get to change the constitution.

Catalonia doesn’t produce a quarter of Spanish GDP. 20% of Spanish GDP is produced in Catalonia, which doesn’t mean it is Catalan or that it would remain in the region should independence take place. It is clear to me how much Spain depends on Catalonia but I don’t think Catalan nationalists have a realistic idea of how much they owe to Spain.

but isn’t Scotland a net contributor to the uk?

Possibly, if you count all the oil taken out of Norwegian waters as “Scottish” and the bailed out Scottish banks as “British”.

Re: the debt: hopefully on a per-capita basis.

How do you get from twenty eight per cent to fifty one per cent before the Debate begins. The answer is of course that you don’t . We have seen patterns like this before and particularly in wealthy countries such as Canada where the Parti Québécois were unable to bring the decision over the line. This result will make Sinn Fein realise that the question he wants the people asked in Northern Ireland is the flip side of the same coin.
They better know how they’ll both cope with failure.

All cameron has to say is look at Ireland is this what you want , all samon has to say we will not follow irelands road to nowhere .

It’s possible though that Scotland may choose Independence as a way of remaining in the EU, as it seems a referendum on UK membership is coming, which possibly won’t pass due to levels of Euroscepticism in England.

@Stephen, I had not thought of that, though I would be surprised if the British public were given the opportunity to leave the EU. Interestingly Article 50 of Lisbon creates a mechanism that did not previously exist for such a departure. I agree with your assertion though, if there was a referendum in Britain to leave the EU and it was passed before the 2014 vote for Scottish independence, it would most likely have a significant impact since the Scots are more pro European that their British neighbours.

Of course not, the English are the nasty aggressor in all cases. How can you even ask?

Same in Spain with the possibility of Catalan independence. Spaniards living outside of the region will have no say on the matter.

We all know how bad we Spaniards are, having oppressed half the world and bent on still doing it in this time and age :)

Why would they? In a question of national sovereignty, why would a nation outside the borders of the nation the question is affecting have a say?

If such we the case, all small nation states would be held in perennial oppression

@Kerron – and if the Scots vote No, the English get no say as to whether they want to remain in the same country? It’s a marriage in which one party gets the exclusive right to decide whether to divorce or stay married, and the other just has to put up with it?

Kerron, you’re right, that’d be the likely outcome if everyone had a say in the matter.

However, where does it end? I mean, how big must a nation be to gain independence? The Vall d’Aran, in Catalonia, would like to be independent too but the Catalan government finds this laughable. Is it a matter of double standards? They have their own culture and their own language too, why can they not be independent if they so wish?

Furthermore, why could a residential block in Barcelona not become independent if the majority of residents agree? Or not so far fetched, why could they not remain Spanish surrounded by an independent Catalonia. After all, that’s what the majority of residents want and outsiders’ opinions don’t matter.

It’s hard business this of seeking independence, is it not?

Non-argument. You obviously don’t understand the definition of a nation if you’re talking about blocks of residents being constituted as such.

I see sarcasm isn’t in your bag of tricks. Please feel free to enlighten me on the concept of nation and on the boxes people must tick if they want to pursue independence.

Alex, What if Scotland rejects Scottish independence and Wales and England embrace it?

@Damocles – That’s my point.

Of course we can’t talk about English nationalism, because it’s dirty and borderline fascist. Unlike Scots, Welsh or Irish nationalism, which are legitimate aspirations to self-determination.

Alex, Damocles;

What you say sounds very familiar to many in Spain.

Why should England get to decide Scotland’s future? If a wife wants to divorce her husband but he doesn’t, it’s tough shit.

Barra, would an independent Scotland feel so respectful of that kind of reasoning if, say, the lowlands decided to become independent too and be known as the Republic of Edimburgh and Glasgow? Catalonia is not with the Vall d’Aran but they still have the cheek to complain about the Spanish government. As per your reasoning, why would any wealthy part of a country subsidise the poorer areas when they can go solo, not having anyone else the right to say anything? Why would London not declare unilateral independence and leave the rest of the country now that all the investment has been made in the city?

Kerron did not bother to explain his concept of nation but my point before about a block of flats becoming independent is not as silly as some may think. What is the Vatican but a large, independent residential state?

For more on this I recommend reading Charles King’s recent article, “The Scottish Play”, on Foreign Affairs magazine. There he aks: “What kinds of units deserve self-determination, especially when they base their claim not on minority rights but on the simple desire to do things their own way? What options are open to democratic polities that seek to counter secession when military force is unimaginable?”

It is far more complex than what you suggest.

Clearly in the Spanish state there are two nations that exhibit contemporary traits of nationhood whilst also being historic nations

you are attempting to fudge the argument by neglecting the fact that these nations have long been in existence as separate entities functioning as economic, linguistic, cultural or political entities, or some combination of the above, and have then been taken over by an oppressor nation

Catalonia and the Basque Country exist as part of a definite (although sometimes flexible historical process), just as the other nations in the Spanish state like Asturias and Galicia have lost their claim to nationhood through the opposite historical process

And what are those contemporary traits of nationhood or will you leave them unexplained as your concept of nation? To define Catalonia as an opressed state is being very flexible with the meaning of opression since they govern themselves with the exception of pensions and taxes. Hardly an example of opression in my eyes. Palestine is an opressed state and I reckon you will note the difference with Catalonia.

Catalonia, like any other Spanish region, accepted the existing Spanish constitution in 1978. This legal framework acknowledged the historical issues of some regions and provided the legal mechanisms for their pursuing of self-government (which has been granted to a very generous degree). Independence was barred and this was accepted by all political parties (including nationalists) at the time; there was no refusal to accept the constitution unless independence were allowed (which they could have done).

If independence is what they want, a constitutional change is what they need and anything different is breaking both Spanish and international law as this does not grant the right to self-determination to just anybody who happens to feel like it: it is restricted to colonies and opressed minorities (and no international player finds Catalonia opressed) for as long as they do not threaten regional integrity.

Self-determination is a worthwhile pursue but not an automatic right. Rights, as obligations, come from the law and the only applicable laws here are the Spanish and international ones where no relevant clause can be found to justify Catalan independence.

“Why should England get to decide Scotland’s future? If a wife wants to divorce her husband but he doesn’t, it’s tough shit.”

Polls show that England and Wales would gladly let Scotland go it’s own way. The husband (England and Wales) would gladly divorce the wife (Scotland). Should Scotland be forced into independence that way?

I remember reading about that ICM poll a few months back…can’t say I blame people in England for being in favour of it if the above statistics are true. I tried looking it up myself but couldn’t get any concrete answers, what reasons has Salmond given the Scottish people to vote in favour of leaving the union?

I know he is saying they will have full control over their own welfare, health, defence and so on….but that seems kind of weak. Some of the most powerful governments in Europe are at the breaking point because of the economic crisis, does he really think his government would do a better job than Westminster with fewer resources?

I can’t really see any advantage in leaving the Union at this point in time.

“what reasons has Salmond given the Scottish people to vote in favour of leaving the union”

Hating the English, blaming the English for every bad thing that has happened in their history.

I hear you Damocles; it is the same in Spain. We are responsible for all the evils that befell on South American and Central American countries, we are the root of everything that is wrong in Catalonia and we may not know it yet but we will shortly be accused of killing JFK too.

wall of text tldr

I gave that a red thumb as it was too long to read.

What makes you think that if Scotland votes to leave that the English tax payer will want to give a penny to Scotland? Seriously I think most English would want the goverment to move all Military and Govemental instiutions south of the boarder ASAP without compensation since its would be clear the scots did not want them in the first place.

Yes a split of North Sea Gas/Oil revenues would be fair but this would not cover the all the other cost a Independant Scotland would have.

Name of the island is Britain. Named after the “Celts” who live there.

And to further confuse things, HM Queen Elizabeth will be retained as Head of State being Elizabeth Queen of Scots.

it was joke!!!!

We know but it was c***

Yes, because world power is what every nation should aspire to.

That “be the most significant country in the world” mentality has served the humanity so well in the past