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Dublin: 10 °C Wednesday 22 May, 2013

Merkel rules out backdated ESM help for bailing out Europe’s banks

The German chancellor tells a news conference there “will not be any retroactive direct recapitalisation”. That’s us told.

Image: Virginia Mayo/AP

Updated, 17:28

GERMAN CHANCELLOR Angela Merkel has firmly ruled out any prospect of the new permanent Eurozone bailout fund helping to recapitalise banks which have already received aid from their respective governments – possibly including Ireland’s.

Speaking to reporters at the conclusion of the two-day meeting of EU heads of government in Brussels, Merkel echoed comments from other leaders saying it would take time for a new permanent European banking supervisor to be set up.

This is seen as a precondition of the permanent bailout fund, the European Stability Mechanism (ESM), being able to directly recapitalise banks – a matter which has direct importance for Spain, which may find its banks needing aid before the new supervisory can be set up.

Asked about whether Spain would be able to get money back from the ESM if the supervisor wasn’t set up in time, Merkel flatly insisted: ”It will not be a retroactive direct capitalisation.”

The chancellor added: “If recapitalisation is possible, it will come for the future. If the banking supervision is in place, we no longer have any problems with the Spanish banks.

“At least, that is my hope,” she said.

Looming German election means hardline stance

Though the answer related directly to Spain – and can also be taken in the context of Merkel having to go before German voters next September – it bodes badly for Ireland, which was hoping to have the ESM give retrospective aid for Ireland’s banks.

Ireland’s hopes were that the arrangement in Spain, where the ESM will recapitalise banks directly instead of lending money to the government to do so itself, could be replicated retrospectively for Ireland.

Now, with Merkel even questioning whether such an arrangement can be used for Spain, the prospect that Ireland’s state aid could be replaced with ESM funding appears to have taken a significant dent.

In a statement the Irish government said it understood Merkel’s comments came in response to “a direct question about the recapitalisation of Spanish banks”, and that she had replied in that context.

Fine Gael MEP Seán Kelly said the focus of Ireland’s hopes had always been to sell its stake in the banks to the ESM, rather than recapitalising, which was now in the past and could not be revisited.

Merkel had welcomed the decision of EU leaders to set up the legal framework for a so-called ‘Single Supervisory Mechanism’, a new pan-European banking regulator, by January 2013 – but warned that it could take some time for the regulator to be set up.

The German leader said it should first be agreed that the ECB was not equipped to act as a reliable regulator itself, and then the appropriate staff would have to be recruited. “It’s not even on the horizon for the time being,” she said, referring to the regulator coming into effect.

Merkel had earlier told reporters that German was in favour of the creation of some sort of solidarity fund for Eurozone coutnries, but again appeared to pooh-pooh the idea of so-called “Eurobonds” – a bond issued jointly by all Eurozone nations rather than individual countries.

“I think that mutualisation of liabilities – as long as we have national budgets – is not the appropriate answer,” she said. “This is not something we would be able to support.”

Kenny welcomes summit as proof of intent

At a press conference taking place at the same time, Enda Kenny described the two-day summit as a positive one – saying the statement issued by participants affirmed the desire to “break the vicious circle between banks and sovereigns”.

“We have a clear timeframe now for the putting in place of a legal framework in which the operation and the mechanics for the recapitalisation of banks can take place,” Kenny said.

“You cannot do anything about this until you have a legal framework in place.”

Kenny added:

The credibility of the Eurozone Union and the Eurozone rests on the capacity and the willingness, and indeed the courage, of its leaders to flow through on the decisions that are made and to be seen to follow through.

That’s what leadership is all about – the different between the concept of an idea and the translation of that into reality.

Asked about the criteria under which ESM funds could be injected into banks, Kenny said this was now a matter for the Eurogroup, the meeting of 17 Eurozone finance ministers, who will now be asked to hammer out a deal on how the new banking regulator can work.

Opposition parties in Ireland slammed the government for its positivity on the outcome of the summit, with Sinn Féin describing Merkel’s comment as “a Judas kiss” while Fianna Fáil describing the comments as proof of how little progress had been made in seeking a deal for Ireland’s benefit.

Read: Here’s the exact transcript of Angela Merkel’s comments in Brussels

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Comments (224 Comments)

  • Well someone’s credibility lies in tatters and it isn’t Frau Merkel…….

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    • Agree. But Micheal Martin is no better. Europeans are the most arrogant race on the planet. We need an a leader who can play hardball with Europeans. Right now, that would be Gerry Adams.

      Reply
    • Enda’s words are written by someone else.

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    • A massive fail for Fine Gael. Massive!!!

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    • Well….that’s us good and f*cked then…

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    • FFg/Labour/FF have an awful lot to answer for … TRAITORS one and all…. self serving LIARS

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    • Well…that’s us f*cked then….

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    • @Joe McGarry – Gerry Adams ? Are u serious ? No way, Gerry Adams. The blunt reality is we are done for. Thanks to the Bertie Ahern lead Govts & the failure of all opposition to do their jobs to hold the then Govts to account, we are where we are. This is our new reality signed & sealed. Thank u very much stupid Irish gombeen politicians.

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    • I expect Noonan has the positive spin speech written.Enda will have something similar.Not once…not fkn once has either of them got it even close to right,as far as the meetings and the interpretation of what was said. They will come back with that ‘peace in our time ‘ mentality and then dump some surreal explanation for how this is ‘Good for Ireland!’ Send Dustin the turkey ,Send anyone next time ,but those two ^%$£”£$%^s

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    • Time for kenny to pack up and go back to the hole he crawled out of.

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    • @ Declan why not Gery Adams. I bet you ten to one Merkel wouldn’t have played Adams like she played Kenny and co. Its thinking like yours keeps us in this mess because we can’t see that you need a hard ball player Like Adams to deal with the like of Merkel and her cohorts.

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    • I am all on for hardball games with Merkel & Co, Christopher. Adams ? No way. We need a very clever leader who has a pair of b*lls. Sending in Adams is never gonna work. Enda K has shown himself to be completely as useful as t*ts on a bull. I wonder how many are now wondering why didn’t they support the get Enda out heave a while back ? Hve many in FG now have the momentum to get rid of Kenny & his losers ? Will see. I am as annoyed as u & others at what happened but I firmly believe Adams is not the person required to do the job. We have agin been given the 2 fingers & Adams is not the person to deal with this.

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    • Have the government resigned yet?

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    • “Europeans are the most arrogant race on the planet”. What now? “European” is a race now? If so, surely we are also Europeans?

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    • Declan, i have to ask … We have given FF/FFg/Labour every opportunity since the foundation of the country… time and again they have shown they are either too inept, too corrupt or both …
      You say No to SF, but you didnt articulate why not? Please enlighten us.
      Tell us why we should repeatedly fulfill Einsteins definition of stupidy, versus allowing SF to try and fix the screw up the fore-named parties have made of this country since 1921.

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    • The Irish solution to “change” is to rotate the leadership between FF and FG, two sides of the same coin. The other minority parties are just a joke, pursuing narrow interests at the expense of the nation just like the major parties do. So why are we surprised when our “leaders” turn out to be incompetent gombeens with massive personal pensions?

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    • I am not the biggest fan of Gerry Adams and SF, However, I do think that it would have a positive result as far gaining solid information as to where all this money that we are repaying is actually going.We may get answers to that illusive ‘why are we paying non guaranteed bond holders’ question.We may actually get answers to questions that Enda and Co. have asked, and seemingly failed to Comprehend,Understand or even remember the replies.Talk about lost in translation!!
      Adam and SF may have very little experience of dealing with the likes of Merkel and the rest of the euro finance ‘experts’ ( I was going to call them something else,less accurate ,but more fitting in my opinion) But at least this puts them in the position of having to be walked through their thinking and their reasoning for their position.Adams has played hardball with some characters over the years and is no fool when it comes to straight answer to a straight question,God knows he helped write the rule book.Maybe then we will get solid reliable information that the other two $%^& could not get.
      It is going on too long now this treat the Irish reps like mushrooms and feed them any s…t at all.Something has to break. The likes of an SF delegation supported by one or two FF (democracy is a bitch ) and a couple of independents.They may all be in opposition ,But they are still part of the government and are entitled to have a sit down with full disclosure of facts from these Euro finance …whatever…grrrr!! What have we got to lose???

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    • G’day, Cal 1Mooney ! Long time, no type. I echo censored’s reply & I agree with u re this FF steps out & FG steps in again routine. It has failed us & politics & political thinking here has to change for the 21st century. It is more than clear that all present parties here, including SF, haven’t got what it takes. Mr Adams is past tense. Time for him to move on. He is not the appropriate person to deal with this. I think he hasn’t the intellect to deal with what is going on now. That is my opinion. Like most of the gobsh*tes in FFF, FFG & FLab. U can guess what the “f” stands for !! We need a new, modern & dynamic breed of people to deal with our problems in a clear modern context where the interest of our nation is first. Like u, I am absolutely disgusted with what is going on & in my opinion, Mr Adams is not the person to deal with our current probs. Do we need a Govt of national unity for the mo ? Perhaps & that would take in SF. All I know is that I am totally exasperated with the whole lot of them. Enda K’s pay cheque needs to be cut to reflect his very poor performance. There y’are ! Have a nice evening.

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    • Angela is speaking with her eye on reelection. Our clowns are out of their depth. Noonan and Enda saying this is good news is cringeworthy. International financiers control politicians. Politicians control the people. Financiers control who gets to the top of national politics and we vote from their menu. All answerable to the trilateral/bilderberg money men. Golden handshakes await via corporate appointments to BAT, Shell etcafter they finish screwing the electorate. Rotten to the core.

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    • Kerry. I know- a long way up the page!

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    • Yeah….Europes..

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    • In a first world country where the state doesnt violently abuse children openly in state care (St. Patricks TODAY) this goivernments position would be unteneable with the news from Germany proving beyond a shadow of doubt that the the whingy school teachers kenny & noonan have been lying to the electorate….

      This kenny “democratic revolution” eh???? Wheres that half eejit gilmore now with he “labours way or Frankfurts way”. It would seem with Merkles foot firmly planted up kennys arse that we have found out its Franfurts way…All the way

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  • As a German pointed out on Joe Duffy earlier, if there was mass protests( not rioting ) on the streets like Greece and Spain u can bet ur ass there would be a quicker resolution to this. But unlike Spain and Greece our union leaders are too busy with their heads in the trough.

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    • Well said Derek,as a nation how long will we take this before they have us buried in the ground.In our history we fought against british rule with what we had and it’s time we stood together again and call on Europe to act as Kenny and his cronies are obviously not able to that for us the political way

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    • Well said Derek,as a nation how long will we take this before they have us buried in the ground.In our history we fought against british rule with all that we had and it’s time we stood together again with all that we had and call on Europe to act as Kenny and his cronies are obviously not able to that for us the political way

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    • Our union leaders are too busy lining their pockets before the s–t really hits the fan.

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  • Stuffed by the Germans twice in one week. Hard to take.

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  • There is no spinning this news. Ireland has been truly shafted.

    Time to throw the toys out of the pram Enda, man up and start making noises about a referendum to leave the EU. That’ll concentrate their minds.

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    • Don’t replace them with Fianna Fail.

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    • That’s pointless. We’ve taken a political decision not to go back to 2001 levels of government spending. Which means that we need credit just to keep going. The overdraft increases every day before we start paying any interest. Threatening to leave the euro is just not credible.

      If you balance the budget (ex repayments), then you have a credible threat.

      Until then, about the only thing you can do is try to play on the rift between the IMF (which totally gets the case for not paying bondholders) and the EU / ECB. Enda has done a pretty poor job of that so far, but he can’t be blamed for not throwing a hissy fit.

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    • Jeff 19/10/12 #

      Like anyone would believe Ireland would leave the EU or the EUR, zero creditably, perhaps the next time we send a team to talk to the German PM or the Irish PM & his “team” should be actual on less money than the Germans & not a bunch of Trapattoni’s. Interest on the bank debt is 5.66% of the deficit ? lets try and see the wood from the trees.

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    • Ireland was shafted the night of the bank guarantee by the second most popular party in Ireland.

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    • Alex,

      You mention 2001 but seem to forget that when we had our own currency to print. Right now, we don’t have our own currency.

      Reply
  • zebedee 19/10/12 #

    This government is done for……stop careers allowance etc to save the euro and prop up the banks…now Germany spits in our collective face. Gloves off and quick….the charm offensive didn’t work.

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    • Nothing for it now but to tell Herr Merkel to go f–k herself and start printing the Punt again. (And I do know I used the masculine address, for those wishing to correct my grammar). We need to do this sooner rather than later, if not a default is on the cards, no other way out.

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    • Sloppy aim there. Our government has been lying through their teeth about a deal that was never a runner to begin with, and Merkel is the villain. We didn’t vote for Merkel to look after us, the German people voted for her to look after their interests, and that’s what she’s doing. It’s closer to home you should look to be pointing fingers.

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    • Oh please, the punt wouldn’t be worth the paper it would be printed on! Markets are barely buying Irish bonds even with the supposed support of the ECB proping up our banks and country. Do you think anybody would want to buy Irish government bonds if there was none of that.

      This is a slap in the face for the government’s tatics of the soft approach. It would seem time now for the Government to get more agressive in its tack with Europe. Of course nothing is going to be decided in the short term and probably not until after next September when the German elections are held.

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    • Actually, the Punt would be stronger in value and buy more Dollars and British Pounds than the Euro would. Ireland had more industrial production when we had the Punt currency. Since joining the €uro, Ireland lost its core manufacturing of valuable goods. We need to devalue and we’re trapped in the Eurozone.

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    • censored 20/10/12 #

      The cup of coffee would cost a billion punts, or whatever we would call the new mickey mouse currency.

      We would still owe over a 100 billion euros, except its value in our local currency would be about a quadruple centillion puntaroons (or whatever we would call the new mickey mouse currency)

      As for the core manufacturing of valuable goods, so would the plan be to compete with China or to go back to DeValera’s wonderful vision of a bunch of ignorant but holy peasants running a bucolic backwater? That change has nothing to do with currency, in fact the euro probably helped us reduce the impact of it.

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  • Holy sh*t! A lot of egg on the face of Time mag now. Will I gather the cudgels and pitchforks now?

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  • So when’s the protest march?? National day of action?? As always all talk.

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  • Mjhint 19/10/12 #

    oh dear! Its time the fighting Irish got off the h##es!

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  • I suppose she’s merely the chancellor of one country, eh Enda?

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  • Was this not a little predictable? The only losers in this were going to be the Irish people, generations are now shackled with huge dept that should never have been ours. No politician or bond holder will have to choose between food or home heating oil this winter or any other.

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    • @Max it’s truly tragic what’s happening to our Country.. These fockers have been playing monopoly with it for years, something’s got to give..
      We have families who have to choose to eat or heat, Gov does not care for anyone but themselves.. My heart bleeds for the state they have left us in.
      WE HAVE TO STAND UP NOW AND BE COUNTED…. WALK THE WALK NOT TALK THE TALK.. I have nothing to lose anymore..

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    • I’d be the same a yourself Mary. Have had to calculate how much oil I could afford relative to other outgoings. Got my threatening letter for the household charge the other day, that’s another bill or shopping list that will have to go wanting. I pity the position who calls to my door next election. I really do. Thy will be on my property (while its mine) and I can say ANYTHING I want to them. Ill ask them what first class on an airplane feels like, then ill tell ten what its like as a tax payer paying for it. Ill advise them o leave and spread their lies as toxic as the plague elsewhere. I would return my passport in protest if I could just leave this place. That’s how bad it is I feel being Irish now. We’re a worthless nation at the beginning of several lost generations offered up to the alter of bad business and the old boy network. I never thought I’d say it but I now hate Ireland

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  • Resistance is futile ( in your best Germany accent)!

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    • Finally the truth comes out….. God i can’t wait to hear what Shite Enda comes up with to explain this…
      our EU presidency should be remembered for one thing…. US as in Ireland turning out the lights on this farce of a Union and Currency….

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    • This is nonsense. We have the likes of Kenny and Noonan telling us everything will be sorted, and then you have Merkel supposedly telling us it won’t be. Enough is enough. We either have a bank debt deal or we don’t. What is the problem? It sounds to me like Kenny and Merkel were at different meetings back in June. It’s time that some of our clowns demanded something in writing regarding this fiasco.its gone on way too long. The tiny shred of credibility that this government had left has finally vanished. If it wasn’t so serious, it’d be laughable. We have meeting after meeting, and it seems to me that we haven’t gained one iota out of all this. Threaten Merkel with an Irish default. What’s there to lose? It’s just one big stalling excercise, designed to screw the people of this country for as long as we can stand up. The government really do have to quit now. They like the governments before them,have definitively succeeded in proving without any reasonable doubt that they haven’t got a clue.

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    • Well sais Rodrigo. They have to go. The truth is out and merkel is the one who brought clarity not any of our so called politicians. They haven’t even the decency to tell us we are F****d.

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    • And congrats to all who voted for the fiscal compact.

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    • @ghandi we didnt vote for it.it was rigged.

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    • What resistance? What has this got to do with “Germany”? It’s Irish people who created this situation and are perpetuating it. Not just ball-less-Enda, but the entire nation. This is what happens when you bend over at every opportunity.

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    • @Censored, Don’t speak the truth! The Irish don’t like it, we prefer chancers, conmen and liars! We got ourselves in this mess, we have to clean it up and prevent it from happening again. Don’t blame Europe, we have to take our medicine the hard way or we’ll never learn. Honesty and integrity on this Island of, saints and scholars? HA!

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    • I hate to say it but ‘I told you so , comes to mind ‘ We pleaded and asked people to vote No in the austerity referendum in June …. Merkle played Kenny and Kenny the FOOL that he is thought he could play with the big boys (yes incl merkle) .Kenny thought he was as good as them , as worldly wide as cute as them . Well he is not ,He is a FOOL and he has been finally proved to be one . This government should resign …NOW !

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    • # Stephen, or what, exactly? Keyboard cowboy. I’ll exercise my democratic right to say what I want. And unlike Eileen I wont be a hypocrite doing it, as I pay for those I’m talking about. Take your head out of your arse and you’ll be able to read, maybe? I said pay IN FULL. I thought that the capitals might have made it easier for you. Perhaps the Journal should print pop up book version so that you have some help understanding big words? Would sock puppets help?

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    • @ Killian Explain to us plebs, what your ‘In Full’ means? Is that the immoral and illegal property tax or household charges you so obediently pay. When told to do so by your FG masters, do you bend over each time you’re ordered too?

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    • #Stephen, we don’t get to pick & choose which taxes we pay. It might be different in the pixie make believe land of “I wish it were so” that you live in, but in the Irish Republic we all pay and those who don’t are sponging off those who do. They should at least have the decent to be quiet if they’re not going to say thank you.

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    • @ Killian shaw. As far as I can remember everyone over 18 who is an Irish national and resident in this state at the time of an election / referendum is entitled to vote. That would lead me to think they are equally entitled to voice their opinion on the performance of those who have been elected. Or can you point me to the section of the constitution of Ireland that prevents them speaking or voicing an opinion regardless as to if they have paid some tax or other? If I remember correctly we have had / have some people sitting in Leinster house who have been in trouble with revenue. In fact I do believe Bertie at one stage was not able to provide a tax cert as required as a member of the house due to some tax difficulty.

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    • I don’t know what the issue is. We went into the post Fianna Fail period with a known debt problem which remains a known debt problem.
      Currently separate to that issue we are spending twelve billion more than we earn. Most of that overspending is in three main areas……Social Protection, Health and Public Services.
      When we deal with the overspending we can move on to the other key areas.
      First we need to drop spending under these three areas by thirty per cent. But But But that would drop our standard of living! Yes …..so what.
      Next , we write a cheque for the Central Bank in the amount of the Anglo liability for seventy five years hence and hand it over.
      Next, we print Euros or manufacture Euro coins in Dundrum to the amount of the remaining Bank Bailout and issue the currency into the market. We forward a cheque for that amount to the ECB dated January 1 2113 and send an accompanying letter to them thanking them for their understanding.!
      Move on…………….

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    • Would have thought that the issue was pretty clear Paddy Rogers. Basically Enda & Eamon have lied to the Irish people and misled Leinster house in case you haven’t heard the news tonight.

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    • Paddy I was trying to think of a bigger fool that we could have sent to brussels this week and your name is the only one that comes to mind

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  • andrew 19/10/12 #

    i don’t know how long fg/lab can keep this whole thing going now

    the only rationale behind what they are doing has been reduced simply to creating a more privatised less social/public society

    intrestingly this was a postion put forwadrd by brian hayes on the pat kenny show the other day. he contended that this whole thing suits the centre right parties regardless of any thing to do with the troika (though they may have the same set of values and ends in mind)

    lab surely now have to pull out or accept the charge that, from now on, given merkels statement, effectively all they are doing is creating exactly the kind of free market based society that they should be opposing?

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  • Emmet 19/10/12 #

    It was suggested at the finance committee during the week that a 9 billion adjustment maybe needed next year if we don’t get a deal on Anglo.. 2x3billion Anglo promissory notes plus 3 billion of a reduction in spending….. Games up it would appear

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  • Time for the resignations now of The Taoiseach Enda Kenny & The Finance Minister Mr Noonan.

    Their positions are now untenable !

    They have clearly misled the Irish people .

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  • Ok think it’s time for Kenny and co to start annoying our colleagues and start fighting back , maybe have a chat with Dave Cameron and get that veto out and slow up everything else , yes 2 wrongs don’t make a right but feck them

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  • #Groan. ffs Enda. When will ye stop spinning lies and just tell us the truth. So basically we saved the European banking system and Merkel and Co just don’t care. Can someone kick Enda up d arse please. Put Ireland first please from now on. Something radical needs to be done .

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  • So will anyone take to the streets now? being led like fools until bondholders are paid…

    Being good gets you nowhere and we all know it..

    we will only ever get what we fight for…

    It’s a shameful time to be Irish, gutless cowards as a nation, something I never thought I would say :-(

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  • MrKnow 19/10/12 #

    why are people surprised by this? Europe is like a company, you have your general ops and you have your top brass. The top brass get the perks and bonus while the general ops get the minimal wage, guess what? Ireland is a general op. Our “leaders” just saw ? signs and grabbed while Europe just pointed them to the black hole. We have a austerity drive to 2020 comprising of a 3.5+ billion adjustment each time, we have 8 years of this left, so if your a private sector worker, a public sector worker, a millionaire, a director or self employed or unemployed etc, it will hit you all hard. We are all going to suffer so stop hiding behind your door and step up before its too late.

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  • The bitch!

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  • Kenny is a pitiful disgrace …we need some one who can play proper hardball …not some ditherer who probably couldn’t command a class room … How did people look At this man and see a solution …

    Reply
    • What does play proper hardball mean?
      What bargaining points would you propose are used?

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    • @Gagsy why are you so obsessed with defending Kenny? Are you related to him? Are you some kind of sick person who gets off annoying sensible people who have just got the worst news since the bailout. get a life fool. Can you not see none of the wpproaches Kenny and noonan took worked. They FAILED MISERABLY.

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    • In fairness to gagsy, he maybe a fg/l sheep but he’s the only one of those fools that normally blindly support the government to come on this article today.

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    • No connection to the Taoiseach or FG and no obsession. And I don’t think I’m a fool but then if I was one I probably wouldn’t realise it.
      Christopher, I think you need to calm down a little and try not be abusive – it might make it easier for you to more clearly express yourself

      I’m simply trying to get an understranding about what the often hysterical rantings here mean in terms of the action you would like our govt to take.

      Defaulting on our debt has serious consequences.
      Forcing our pillar banks into liquidation (ie forcing them to default on their bond debt) has serious consequences.
      So making petulant threats to the rest of Europe therefore might not be the best way to go here.

      But its only an opinion – I hope you can tolerate that without abusing me.

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    • Colman – an insult dressed up as a compliment?
      I don’t blindly support anyone and I don’t think I’m either a sheep or a fool.

      I think you may be confusing all those labels with “holding a different opinion to you”.
      And if its not confusion on your part, well, some might call it arrogance.

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    • censored 20/10/12 #

      baaa!

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  • Emmet 19/10/12 #

    By god eh… Least one politician is telling us Irish citizens what’s going on its not our prime minister….. Arthur Spring put some serious questions to Noonan in the finance committee meeting during the week…. If we do not get a deal basically we’re screwed. Not sure if you can watch it on RTEs player but Noonans reaction is priceless

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  • We all know enda Noonan and co weren’t hard line negotiators they’d let other European leaders do the donkey work and then our shower would come in, like a sick kitten asking “can we have the same as them?” It’s time we play hardball with the Europeans tell them the poster boys of austerity are no longer willing to play the game, Angela would soon be getting a phone call from the money people telling her what to do

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    • what does play hardball mean?
      What bargaining points would you use?

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    • Am allow me. Play Hardball = Default. Simple.

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    • censored 20/10/12 #

      Hardball = we are looking after our people’s survival first, no more payments to unsecured bondholders, f*ck the promissory note, time for all of Europe to show the solidarity that in enshrined in the principals of the EU and help us come up with a workable plan or take the consequences to the entire EU banking system.

      Yes: I know that would mean an immediate modification to the personal circumstances of some of the more cossetted groups in our society.

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  • Eamonn 19/10/12 #

    Time to leave the euro me thinks this debt is unsustainable time to start printing the punt

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    • we should have done that from day one.it would have been painful at the start but we would be far better off now.

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    • The Irish Pound was worth more than the Euro.

      IR£1 used to buy $1.60 – $2.20.

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    • A new Irish punt would collapse in value immediately thus leaving us with even bigger debts and the threat of much higher inflation. Printing more and more punts would just lessen the value of it even more. There isn’t one serious economist or financial person who suggests that we should try and refloat the Irish punt. It would make our current problem look like a walk in the park.

      Reply
    • Jim you should read the paper written by the IMF on Iceland’s recovery. Yes their currency collapsed by 50% and they had a number of hard years. But, once their currency devalued they experienced a huge surge in exports and tourism. There is nothing to be afraid of in having your own currency in fact many countries devalue deliberately to increase their competitiveness.

      Revert back to the punt or punt nua and default. Clean slate no more unsustainable debt, good access to markets due to our competitiveness, encouraging job growth which will in turn lead market confidence.

      What we are signed up for now is just year upon year of austerity with no sign of an exit.

      Reply
    • Jim – Actually Bank of America economists predict the Punt will rise in value if re-introduced. I normally don’t trust bankers but look at today’s exchange rate for the Irish Pound (IEP) vs US Dollar (USD):

      http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=IEPUSD=X
      ————————————————————————————————————————————————–
      * One Punt currently buys $1.65.

      Reply
    • Joe – The link you mention merely takes the current Euro-Dollar rate (http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=EURUSD=X) and divides the answer by 0.787564 which is the punt-euro rate (as was fixed on 31/12/1998). It’s not a prediction, it’s just an outdated way of expressing a conversion.

      You’ll find if you look at the EUR-USD rate – which currently shows 1.3022 – it’s exactly the same as the Irish punt rate, except divided by 0.787564, to make 1.65345293.

      Reply
    • Eamonn 19/10/12 #

      How is Iceland doing at the moment

      Reply
    • Better then us Eamonn, back in the bond market, unemployment dropping, exporting lots of their produce, good tourist numbers. Basically the exact opposite to Ireland.

      Reply
    • Nit that easy im afraid , The massive income / expenditure problem won’t be helped if its different currency , the average numbers fir ireland are circa expenditure of 50bn and Income 32bn , so weather that’s euro , punts etc , we have massive borrowing requirement , the system shock if we overnight can’t borrow would be to lose hospitals schools etc and force thousands more into a social welfare bill we couldn’t afford to pay , need to grow a pair and explain to Europe that the bailout was not really euro helping us but us PAYING with interest to help euro banks and its just not sustainable , but we can’t keep ignoring how crap we are at fixing problem at home , John Delaney still gets 360000 a year to run football , Marian Finnucane gets 500000 a year to do weekend radio show and on and on it goes , need a goverment to govern….

      Reply
  • call a referendum on euro membership to be held in march 2013 and bring this charade to a conclusion

    Reply
    • CALLING FOR SUCH A REFERENDUM IS GOING TO BE AS IMPOSSIBLE AS KENNY’S SUCCESS WITH HIS “REQUEST”, BUT SUCH A GOOD IDEA, HOW CAN THIS BE DONE,? I HAVE EMAILED MY DISTASTE FOR THIS GOVERNMENT MANY TIMES TO THEIR WEBSITES BUT NEVER GOT A REPLY.
      WHAT WE NEED IS FOR AS MANY OF US AS POSSIBLE TO SEND THIS DEMAND ALL AT THE SAME TIME , FLOOD THEIR WEBSITES WITH EMAILS , THEN SEE WHAT HAPPENS.
      ?????

      Reply
  • When you adopt a negotiating stance of bending over with your pants down, you will receive all manner of abuse as every passer by will do with you as they please. What idiots we have. We didn’t have to rush in to pass that fiscal treaty thing but to demonstrate our compliance our leaders started to bend over. We know now where we are.

    Reply
  • Grow a pair balls enda

    Reply
  • For those of you who voted Yes like sheep to Lisbon 1&2, thanks; who spent a lifetime voting in one of the dysfunctional Siamese twins of FF or FG (or their Labour enablers), thanks; who call the Troika “our friends”, thanks. Stuff the Children’s Rights Referendum. You have given the children of this State nothing but the right to debt slavery

    Reply
    • Could not have put it better myself…we have been well and truly sold down the river thank you all the YES voters!

      Reply
    • MrKnow 19/10/12 #

      Did you see the latest party poll? We have a new second place after FG, its FF! So when we vote out the losers in FG we get stuck with even bigger losers! why does this keep happening. And please don’t say the usual “well Mr know who else can we put in, SF”. There is a lot of honest, intelligent people in this country who would love to run a country for half of what these fools are earning. FG and FF play tag team with this country.

      Reply
    • our eu “elections” are rigged.we always voted no to them.

      Reply
    • a national government should have been put in place on the night we signed the bank gurantee…looking at the news tonight all the opposition has done is played party politics and its disgusting..we are miles past party politics at this stage and we need the most profession team of people to help us..get rid of fine gael fine fail labour and just set up a government of intelligent people who can get us out of this mess..if we fail to get a deal on bank debt, this country in the future will be one of the poorest and most dangerous places to live, we are in serious serious trouble.

      Reply
  • mike 19/10/12 #

    Time for Ireland to play hardball….. Don’t think Enda is capable of it though.

    Reply
  • Why is Kenny not getting this. Why is he ignoring what she said. Basically go a F**k ourselves we won’t be getting help. Enda kenny has to go now. He is a total and utter failure and Merkel just confirmed it because he refuses to hear her telling us no. We won’t be getting help. How many F*****g languages have we to say it to Kenny before the penny drops. Is it possible to be any more stupid as kenny.

    Reply
    • He’s elected to govern to the end of the Dail term. Thats how it works here.

      Reply
    • Well he is incompetant and has proven to be grossly incompetent. Thats the problem. The idiot has to be got rid of before the life of this government.

      Reply
    • Proven? Not so sure about that.

      Diplomacy is a long game and I’d rather it be played by our govt that way rather than taking any precipitous and petulant action.
      I think (and hope) that we will ultimately get a deal – but maybe not as quickly as the braying hounds here demand.

      Reply
    • He’s ignoring it because a retrospective bank recapitalisation from the ESM wasn’t something Ireland was ever likely to get, so this is pretty much irrelevant. The understanding from the summit was that the door was open to the ESM buying the government out of the banks, which might net us some €9-12 billion – see Sean Kelly’s remarks.

      If people are upset because their dreams of the ESM taking over the original recap debt have been shattered, they have nobody to blame but themselves (and to some extent the media), because that has always been extremely unlikely.

      Reply
    • @ Bob – sensible comment. It baffles me why people don’t get this. That said, Noonan and Kenny are very much in the wrong by not stating this from the outset. Better bad news early and directly than spinning out impossible pipe-dreams.

      Reply
    • Thats exactly the point if they were aware that retrospective debt was off the table they kept it to themselves..they infact insinuated the complete opposite and even used it as a bargaining tool in the referendum..they have purposely mislead the people and that should have serious consequences..isint it the same tack that the bankers have been using all along and we want to string them up…so whats different when the government mislead us

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    • @ Damien – looking back over any EU-level announcements from the last few months, there is absolutely nothing there that would lead a person to believe that a door was open for retroactive banking debt relief. Nothing at all. I can’t believe that, in all honesty, Noonan and Kenny could claim they were led to believe that such a deal was waiting in the wings. Why officially announce one thing and “secretly” say another behind closed doors when there’s absolutely no advantage for their EZ states in doing this?

      Reply
    • Nikolas, Noonan confirmed on the six one news that he is discussing 2 seperate deals one on recapitalising current live institutions and one on dealing with the legacy debt. surely this is leading a person to believe that retroactive banking debt relief is still open for discussion

      Reply
    • the simple question that noonan dodged on the news from the start to the finish was, who was telling the truth..he claimed he was but he wanted confirmation and he would have that later tonight..i await the results of his enquiries

      Reply
    • @Damien

      There are two deals, though – one dealing with recapitalising live current institutions and one dealing with legacy debt. The first one is the possible buyout of the State’s shares in the live banks, the second one is the possibility of extending by a significant margin the paying off of the Anglo promissory notes.

      The first one breaks the “sovereign-bank debt link” because it takes any *future* recaps off our hands – and, more to the point, takes away any concern that further weaknesses in the banking sector impacts the credibility of the sovereign, because that risk is absorbed into the ESM fund and borne by all the euro countries.

      Unfortunately, people seem to have heard “break the sovereign-bank link” and taken it to mean that the bank debt we’ve already taken on would be “unlinked” from the sovereign. Obviously, excluding any “legacy issues” makes it clear that’s not going to happen…but it never was going to happen.

      I don’t know whether the government really did spin what was available into the belief many people have, or whether they just didn’t do enough to prevent people (and many journalists) taking what they wanted from what was said. From experience, though, what mostly happens is the latter, often encouraged by opposition parties, and the level of media control it would probably take to prevent people having such straws to clutch at is not one I’d want to see in the hands of our government anyway…

      Reply
  • This does not surprise me, Kenny and Co are not the people to take us out of here. The time to tell Merkel etc to take a hike was this ”stabilty” thing. This is a negotiation, I know that Enda isn’t cut out for it as the guy refuses to answer questions or have debates. Whats the alternative you ask, send in Gerry Adams. I am not a staunch sinn fein supporter but you have to pick the best players at certain times in the match. When will they just put it up to them, let the lights go out in the street, shag it.

    Reply
  • I would say Ireland were shafted behind closed doors while Enda, Noonan and Hogan were too busy taking the bread off the tables of the people of Ireland.

    Reply
  • mike 19/10/12 #

    We have one card left to play. That is bank deal or we leave the euro…. Its that simple BUT it cannot be a bluff. Without a bank deal we could well be better off out of the euro. We could then devalue away the national debt and then rebuild on low cost exports.

    Reply
    • That’s great, but right now we’re running a current account deficit. How are we going to pay the teachers next month?

      Reply
    • MrKnow 19/10/12 #

      your spot on mate, and it could be done. But our government won’t for one simple reason, wages! They would have to cut there wages along with the good friends the senior civil servants which won’t be aloud. Point being, don’t hold you breath for this government to do it, they would rather put the bailout etc on there credit card, i think it pronounced taxpayers visa card.

      Reply
    • We could only devalue our debts away if our debt was denominated in Irish punts. If it was denominated in Euros or other foreign currencies (as it more likely) then devaluation would actaully just increase our overall debt level. The reality is that a new currency would devalue significantly anyway without the Government doing anything. They’d probably be more likely to have to intervene by raising interest rates to protect it from collapsing.

      Reply
    • A default can be done in an ordinary, controlled manner. It was successfully done by Ecuador (2008) and Bulgaria in 1990.

      Reply
  • Bruce 19/10/12 #

    merkel playing to her electorate.

    Unfortunately Kenny is a light weight, gombeen politician.

    Kenny might be good at getting a medical cards for someone or visiting an old folks home.

    But running a country – he is a total and utter failure. Yet he will get a whopping pension when he finishes…… and we sit idly by.

    Reply
  • Have to say- my orientation is towards Fine Gael but here is where the line needs to be drawn. Constructive engagement was the way to go- but by common consent from other member states this is a complete reversal on the part of Germany. It’s time for our Government to make a stand in the only way it can. If our European partners are content to throw us to the wolves, it’s time to veto everything that moves at EU level, whether its budgets, appointments or resolutions in support of cute puppies. Bring Brussels to a standstill. The EU was built so that the rights of smaller countries could not be ignored. Taoiseach – it’s time to show our teeth. Berlin may think we’re on our knees and out of options but it would be one very long Irish Presidency in a scenario where nothing could move forward until previous commitments are honoured. I think it would constitute a seminal moment in the history of the Union and I think the amount of support Ireland would get from other small nations, and very probably the British would give pause for thought to the Frauline.

    Reply
    • howzat 19/10/12 #

      You can’t because of that’s referendum those fg wanks got us to sign up for unfortunately

      Reply
    • @ Killian – this isn’t a totally reversal by Merkel and the other solvent member states. It is restating and confirming what has been said all along, or rather, everything that has been been said by the Irish government. Statements have been remarkably consistent at the EU level over the last 12 months. It’s at the Irish governmental level that stories don’t remain straight.

      Reply
    • # Nicholas- even the Guardian in the UK is reporting that EU officials are at a loss to explain the turn around. Even the reaction of the markets to the original announcement shows that they thought it was done & dusted.

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    • But it’s not a turnaround. Rather than looking at the media, look at the official announcements made after the meetings. It was never said that banking debt relief policies would be retroactively applied. Every subsequent statement reaffirmed that new banking debt and existing banking banking debt would be treated separately and differently. Any other interrogation has almost exclusively come from the Irish government and media friendly towards them. People have absolutely no justification in being shocked and surprised by this.

      Reply
    • Nikolas, while the Government may have overspun the agreement in June, there has been definite backtracking here. As Killian pointed out when the June deal was announced the markets reacted positively for both Spanish and Irish government bonds because it was felt that the linkage between banking debt and sovereign debt was being broken or at least weakened. It will be interesting to see where bond yields head tomorrow.

      Merkel seems to be playing hardball with a view to her reelection attempt in Germany next September and also potentially as a reaction to the deal announced today about banking supervision which has not gone her way.

      Reply
    • @ Jim – Yes, the marketed reactive positively to the agreements made and the Irish government’s interpretation of the agreements. But the market reaction was that, a reaction. All that meant is that the markets liked the idea, not that it was going to happen. who was stringing and who was being strung. You might well disagree, but I’d feel the Irish government were intentionally being “over-optimistic” about a write-down or separation of banking debt than the EU financial bigwigs as a whole. The only thing being back pedalled are the interpretations, not the agreements themselves.

      Reply
  • howzat 19/10/12 #

    The problem here is we need ruthless mean motherf)&&& of a leader instead we have the pansy brigade he even gave her a kiss last night
    A few things come to mind
    Unguaranteed bond holders give us our money back
    Cavan numpties supporting Quinn family
    No Anglo manager jailed yet
    A plan now to spread the deficit over 10 years rather than another 2
    Refusal to cooperate when we hold the presidenancy of Europe
    Stop trying to impress the IMF It doesn’t matter any more
    Change of fg leader he’s way too weak
    Join sterling
    Drop out of the Eurovision

    I

    Reply
  • “sure aren’t we better off being ruled by Europe anyhow. Better than these corrupt sleeveen cute hoors in this country”
    Really? At least our politicians are answerable to us. Whether this is whats best for the Irish populace or not is simply not a concern for Merkel and the Euro elite. This is a shafting pure and simple. But what can you expect when the government AND the majority of the electorate are happy to place themselves at the mercy and grace of such masters

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  • Cee U Next Tuesday.

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  • The problem here is quite obvious.

    Enda never took the module on “Getting shafted by German Politicians” when he was at Teacher Training College.

    Reply
  • Dont worry folks,

    Noonan tells us that its all bollox, even though RTE confirmed sources telling them that there is no deal for Ireland.

    But Noonan on 6-1 tells us its a positive day for Ireland.!

    By the way, we pay 2 Billion to bondholders on the 22.10.12.

    GET FINE GAEL/LABOUR OUT.

    Reply
  • i’d like to see a Mary Lou verse Angela Merkel

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  • Of course you know what’s going to happen, the ESM will be implemented just in time to save France and Germany, after the rest have gone to hell.
    Then there’s the “sorry, you guys don’t qualify for help, but it’s time for you to pay up.”

    Reply
  • howzat 19/10/12 #

    Max

    That’s not true uk have already stated they would be willing to inject up to 30 bill as their biggest trading partner

    Reply
  • This is why we shouldn’t have passed the so called “stability treaty”

    Fail Gale sold our souls

    Reply
  • What a horrible woman Frau Merkel. She who must be obeyed, our muppets all together could not stand up to her, we may as well hand her the tricolour, and say yes madam this is all we have left

    Reply
  • Well there you have it. When kenny &co are asked about their latest shambolic display I know exactly what will happen , he and the other power drunk failures will go on the attack by doing their usual “it’s all your fault” tripe.
    They knew damm well what they were facing when they made their “legal pledges” to the people of this cointry.
    Now we need to decide… Punt or Euro .
    Well everybody (mind you it’s the people on very elaborate wages and pensions) tells us it would be disasterous for us… Well we aren’t exactly boyant as it is.
    The banks won’t lend !!!!! ehhh hello !
    We would be independant and free to make whatever decisions to attract business and investment.
    We have tried the pathetic government crap now we need to get off our arses and run this country like a proper buisness with a board of directors on a wage based on productivity and contract.
    Give the likes of Michael O’Leary a chance on the board and a few other successful business men/women will soon get this place up & running.
    To hell with the gombeen parties,they had their chance and made a glorious mess of it all.(and got handsomely paid for it as well)

    Reply
    • *please forgive my dsylexica as spellcheck cannot keep up lol*

      Reply
    • Una Dev 19/10/12 #

      Michael O’Leary would be worse. He would cost the country billions in tax breaks.

      Reply
    • Oh please. I get so tired of this “bring in successful business people” argument. Business people have been every bit as bad as our politicians. You do realise that if we were saying that back in 2005, we’d have been bringing in Sean Quinn, Sean Fitzpatrick, David Drumm, Michael Fingleton and the rest of that lot because back then they were the supposed sucessful business people in the state making billions in profits and creating jobs left, right and centre. Its only now that we know exactly how all of that was being done.

      And the reality is that an Irish punt would simply collapse significantly in value against the major currencies of the world if we left the Euro and our banks didn’t have the lifeline of cash from the ECB. Given that most of our debt is held in foreign currency this would have the effect of making us poorer as well as probably forcing interest rates up to unmanageable levels. Our banks wouldn’t be able to sustain themselves. In effect the crash that didn’t happen in 2008 would just happen in 2013. And so we’d have spend five years going down this route only to end up back exactly at the same point. Realistically that boat has sailed.

      The sad fact is that we have a completely non-existent hand to play in this EU poker game apart from a potential nuclear option (of default) which can only ever be played once and would have to be followed through. And God help us all if we actually do it because Day 2 of a default is going to be hell on earth. I’m really disappointed by this news but the only thing is that nothing of consequence is likely to be decided before the German elections next September. Who knows perhaps a new German government (as I suspect there will be) may look to have a different approach. At the very least they will have the breathing space to take unpopular decisions.

      Reply
    • @ Jim.
      With all due respect we are not in 2005 and we have been fed those horror stories to keep us quiet.
      None of us really know what will happen either way but I personally would like to give it a shot.
      We have put up with draconian “difficult decisions” that have ripped the heart out of this country and who always pays the price ???? we do.
      It’s great to hear from the ivory tower brigade that are fairly recession proof but people like myself are sick to death trying to make ends meet and listening to a useless shower telling us what is good for us.

      Reply
    • Definitely an organized reintroduction of the Punt.

      IR£ was worth more than the €uro. The following chart shows the IEP vs USD from 1971 – 2001( * important to note the central bank deliberately lowered its value towards 2002 due to EMU membership):

      http://en.unciatrends.com/irish-pound-us-dollar-iep-usd-exchange-rate-1971-2001/

      —————————————————————————————————————————————————-

      Also, the IEP bought more British Pounds than the Euro:

      http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/exrate/ireland.htm

      Reply
    • Joe – Again, as I mentioned under another comment, there’s a couple of issues there:

      - You allege that the value of the IEP was deliberately lowered in 2001 before the onset of the Euro. This cannot have been the case as the IEP-EUR rate was pegged on 31/12/1998 – the euro came into existence on 1/1/1999, albeit as a cashless currency. From that date the Irish punt was not traded on currency markets, but rather the euro was, and then converted to the Irish punt at a fixed rate (€1 = IR£0.787564). This was the case with each of the 11 currencies that were replaced on that date.

      - By the same token, of course the Irish pound bought more dollars than the euro did. The Irish pound bought more euros than the euro did, by its very definition, because IR£1 was worth more than €1. Perhaps, though, you’re equating the strength of a currency with the overall strength of an economy, and that’s not a totally accurate thing to do. A strong currency kills exporters because a product that costs IR£10 to make costs US$20 if the currency is strong, but only $15 if the currency is weak. A small export-driven country like Ireland – particularly because we’re an island, and therefore reliant on transport to bring our products to other countries – would be crucified by a strong currency because our produce becomes too expensive for others, for no reason other than our native currency is too high.

      Reply
    • “towards 2002″….

      As for the weak currency issue, our central bank could easily lower its value anytime (like the Swiss Central Bank is currently doing with the CHF vs EUR). This requires coordination among central banks.

      Reply
    • Joe – “Towards 2002″ is fine, but currency values were totally outside of Ireland’s hands after December 1998.

      Reply
  • Dougal Kenny needs to man up and stop being Merkels lapdog.

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  • Time to leave the euro and feck Europe then lets see them fall all over us

    Reply
    • Why would they fall all over us?? If we leave the euro we must balance our budget overnight and start balanced. That won’t happen. Government and their buddies need those big weekly cheques and golden pensions. Won’t happen when we push the reset button.

      Reply
  • howzat 19/10/12 #

    You can’t balance the current deficit by taking too many billion out if the economy you need stimulus
    Being back employment grants for multi nationals
    Tax German and Dutch imports
    Jail Anglo execs
    Sue former ministers for gross misconduct
    Lower the capitalisation requirements for banks as a once off for 5 years

    Reply
  • Time to show the Enda show the door.All of them are failures.We need a young government,not a bunch of jaded,winking,self serving muppets.They will keep failing,it’s what they’ve done for decades.Would love just once to see the muppet show do something for the people,not some people.They are criminally inept and should be held accountable for it,and the likes of Bertie,Cowen and their lot should have all assets stripped and then banished from the country,as they are just plain criminals.

    Reply
  • Looks like the joke is on us.

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  • Sounds like…Punts!
    Thanks again, Politicians!

    Reply
  • Nydon 19/10/12 #

    Mom, mom, mom, mom…
    What? Can’t you see I’m busy talking to people!
    What is it now?
    You promised us ice cream if we was good.
    I said “we’ll see” Enda now go and play with your little friends for another bit.

    Reply
  • So will anyone take to the streets now? being a led like fools until bondholders are paid…

    Being good gets you nowhere and we all know it..

    We will only get what we fight for..

    It’s a shameful time to be Irish, gutless cowards as a nation, something I never thought I would say :-(

    Reply
  • I rang the local F G TD in Boyle Roscommon today = no answer so I sent him a text I got a reply saying he didn’t hear the news. And FG are “running” this country. Think it’ll be Sinn Fein next time.

    Reply
  • Gerard 19/10/12 #

    People. I have read 190 comments most saying that we are in deep deep trouble and the Gov has to go ,, but we have noone there to replace them , I am wondering, do the Gov realise the huge fear and disappointment evident in comments in the journal? and can the comments be forwarded to Dail Eireann ? also. they will never change because they know we have no teeth and we moan and give out but realistically we have no rallying point , no strong voice. no one who can stand up and speak like some of the American commentators against stupidity and corruption , we will suffer from this for the rest of our lives and our Children will continue to bear the burden after we are gone , ,, so I say stand up to Europe and realise that. maybe we will not have money in the ATM’s |||||.
    but i would prefer tovbe stabbed in the back while standing up and not while on my knees , has anyone got any good and workable ideas ?? or does this go on and on forever

    Reply
    • I’ve been thinking those same thoughts since the bank guarantee was put in place; it doesn’t go on forever, but it’s far from over.
      I don’t understand the lack of action, that, and financial reasons are why I left.

      Reply
    • I have forwarded links for the journal via email to the Taoiseach’s office before.and all i have received in reply is saying that they have received my e mail….. But they know what is being said here they have their little people commenting here all night !

      Reply
  • Adams for Taoiseach 2012.

    Reply
  • I’ve just deleted a large number of comments which were either off-topic, interpersonal slagging matches, or (mostly) both. This isn’t a place to discuss who does what in their private lives. Please try to keep your discussion to the matter at hand – and please play the ball, folks, not the player!

    Reply
    • Can we have like one personal insult…..Wives ,girlfriends and pets exempted.Its fun reading some of the exchanges.Establish a quota system.Its completely unworkable I know.But it is fun!……pleaseeeeeeeeeeee!!
      The answer is ‘no’………..is’nt it?……Ah well….thats life!!!

      Reply
  • the government should have done what we asked them to do, which was was iceland did, told them FO, they doing fine now, we been screwed over and over, Merkel only cares about the EURO nothing eles, German tied twice in two world wars to take over the world but they failed, now they try do it with currency

    Reply
  • obviously were not gonna get it…….heres a help towards why the unsecured bondholders are being paid
    http://www.stephendonnelly.ie/featured/so-i-met-the-troika-yesterday/
    alex nesbitt to answer ur problem about the deficit………were supposet to have a deficit of 16.5 billion nxt year right ? well were paying that exact amount out to unsecured bondholders next year………..have any of you even noticed that in the next few years germany is heading for a property boom ? and we all know how to that ended here!
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/euro-zone-crisis-leads-to-german-property-price-boom/2012/10/15/4fe75168-16dd-11e2-a55c-39408fbe6a4b_story.html

    Reply
    • David, that’s €16.5 billion deficit *ex repayments*. The budget deficit in 2012 is €21.5 billion, of which €4.4 billion is the Anglo promissory note and bank recapitalisation. Even without the bank bailouts, we are still massively in the hole.

      You could, in theory, divert unsecured bondholder payments to government expenses, but you’d still have to close the gap in 2014.

      Reply
    • If it makes you any happier, not only is Germany heading into a property boom, the indications are that there’ll be an overheated property market and property crash. The only thing that’ll stop them going down the same road as we did is if the banks avoid being happy at dishing out mortgages.

      Reply
    • censored 20/10/12 #

      The deficit peaked at 18.5 billion in 2009, and was 14.4 billion in 2011.

      Not making the hard decisions – the ones that annoy your crony capitalist friends:
      * spending on pharmaceuticals is double what it was in 2003, after rising at 3X the EU rate for 10 years. Potential savings: 1 billion.
      * spending on PS wages increased by 65% since 2003 – this was funded by property taxes (YES, WE DID HAVE PROPERTY TAXES). Howling says we will save 4 billion here (GET ON WITH IT)
      * child benefit only for those who need it. Potential savings 1 billion.
      * increased income tax by getting people working again and generating economic growth NOT by increasing individual tax rates, especially for the lower paid

      Having gotten ourselves into better shape we can refinance public debt at a better rate than the rate provided by our “friends” in Europe. That’s the way forward, not whinging about what Merkel said. F**k her.

      Reply
  • Paul 19/10/12 #
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  • zebedee 19/10/12 #

    “carer”

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  • Looking at the issue from the other side; what incentive are we offering any other EZ country to agree to a debt write-down? Absolutely no incentive whatsoever. Of course they’re not going to agree.

    Reply
    • Nikolas how about making us the poster boys for stimulus…we are small enough to experiment with…the IMF have finally admitted that austerity is having an adverse effect so why not try the oppsite..europe is going down the tubes and something radical needs to be done…mcwilliams used this quote in one of his latest articles and its correct … “When faced with the choice between changing one’s mind and proving that there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the proof.” we need to completely re-examine the strategy and Ireland is small enough to be the gunea pig for a european experiment

      Reply
    • sorry that quote was meant for Nikolas

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    • Damien – that’s a very good idea. Our main problem is simply that we need to have people who will bring an idea like this to the EU-level and can present the idea in a strong and effective way. We don’t seem to have any suitable career politicians to do this for us. Odd as it sounds, at this stage I’d go begging to the US for third-party to represent us. It might sound crazy but I do believe that the peace and stability in the North wouldn’t have come about without US assistance, so why can’t we follow the same path to resolve this crisis? It does mean swallowing a load if humble pie but, realistically, that’s something that will happen no matter what outcome we end up with.

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    • I’m with you all the way. there was a very sympathetic piece in the wall street journal about two weeks ago. we could also explore a national government as also i agree we have nothing near the top people in charge. this is a very important part in our legacy as a generation and we need to get it right

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  • Bhuel go Éire scriosta.

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  • I love all this chat about playing hardball. How many people here have ever been involved on commercial negotiations I wonder. It’s always easy to spot the blowhard with no bargaining chips – they usually don’t get very far. Obviously like everybody I would love to think that we could have gotten a deal but the reality is we haven’t got a leg to stand on. Mary-Lou goes in to bat and says she wants a deal. OK Mary-Lou why should we give you a deal? Are you going to huff and puff and blow our house down?

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