“Have the boy lay out my formal shorts!”

“Common” people tend to wear uniforms, do they not?

Surely wearing a uniform, in this case business dress, to their work would be uniting them with the average worker?

Or does that logic not suit your rant?

Wolfgang, even if a uniform was acceptable wear for representatives in a democracy, why should it be the uniform of ‘business’? The representatives are drawn from all classes and occupations, so why should not the uniform be that of the farmer, the factory worker, the fisherman or the shop assistant?
You seem to share the delusion of Deputy Mulherin that the garb of the businessman is in some way more ‘respectable’ than the clothing preferred by working people. You are both wrong.

Yeah lets dress them up in farmers outfits or waders and trot them over to deal with the EU.

Jesus Christ some of you people here have your heads so far up in the clouds you’ve lost all touch with reality.

Thankfully, and I mean for the sake of peace and sanity, the users on TheJournal.ie have been proven to be on the fringe of society time and time again, with poll after poll of “opinions” that are later shown to be nowhere near in line with that of the majority in Irish society.

Get a grip Willie.

Wolfgang, there’s no need to be absurd. Of course nobody is going to throw on a pair of waders or a pig sh1t-stained jacket and head over to Merkel to ask them for a few more pound.

I’m calling you out as being a troll, but in case you’re not; why not just let people wear what they’re comfortable in? There’s no need for smelly tracksuits or pyjamas, of course, but if I were to be a member of the Dáil I would wear a shirt, nice jeans, and shoes. Neat, but not formal. I think Boyd-Barrett does a decent enough job at being tidy without being formal.

When you’re watching Dáil sessions, do you closely inspect their clothing? Or do you actually pay attention to the matters they’re discussing?

No, because thankfully the majority in the Dail dress appropriately when turning up for work.

It’s a serious job, it should be taken as such and casual gear is not appropriate in that regard. If you’re happy for people to dress casually for such a job and not take anything particularly seriously, go for it and vote for them. Note that they are wasted votes though, because the people in question have achieved nothing in the Dail and will achieve nothing there. It’s your vote to waste though.

Very true!

This woman is not squeaky clean you know. ….People in glass houses and all that . Maybe she should wear a pair of Jeans or tracksuit , in fact maybe she should shop in Dunnes or Pennys like the rest of us fornicators ……

I hope not! Your run of the mill office worker has to fork out for their own threads on a fraction of the cash

I hope not too. I work in retail and am supplied with a uniform but after 4 years it’s obviously falling apart and have been asking for one. Not forking out the cost for one. They earn enough to get one and it is a job regarded as a professional job. Doesn’t have to be a suit – a shirt at least would make one like slightly professional!

Spot on!

@David Widdis

Not sure whether I agree with you or not. I don’t think it does reflect only one section of society. ‘Time and place’ for everything. Even the poorest of us in society go with the ‘dress code’ for occasions, such as, communions, confirmations, weddings, night out, parties. We’ll find the money from somewhere to look nice, well, professional. We all want to look and feel nice at times and most of us remember and know when and how to dress for occasions.

On this occasion, with cameras and people watching internationally, I think all should look clean, tiny and wear the dress code for the Dail. It’s professional looking, just like the people with very little, want to look good and professional and the part.

Can’t help thinking that there is a bit more to this and is not just about “dressing in a manner that reflects the dignity of the house” and has more to do with the, psychological and intellectual challenges presented by “independent” free thinking non conformist minds which are not part of established Dáil groupthink.

Totally agree. A lot of people out there have no sense of connection with the political process and even a connection on a visual level might be a step in the right direction.

Sheila, as I understand it (please bear with me, I’m a little rusty on the subject), the notion of dress codes and uniforms are based upon the subtle psychological idea of enforced conformity. This can have both positive and negative effects. It can generate a feeling of belonging – if supported, but it can also cause a certain level of dehumanisation, a feeling of “one of the many”, it is used as a means to calm children from distraction and creative aspects of the psyche while at school, it is certainly not geared toward creative people, and really we need some of those in the Dáil, some fresh ideas are sorely needed (and if you look at all of the very successful and non suited business men out there – they were quite innovative in their respective fields).

If we look at the higher levels of many areas where suits (particularly expensive tailored ones) are the norm there is a certain level of corruption that has gone unchecked. Has the psychological shackles of the slightly cheaper suits prevented more open challenging of such behaviours? That feeling of “one of the many” can be demoralising and lead to apathy. The “keep your head down and get your job done” mentality..

As I said, last time I was looking at anything to do with the psychological effects of uniforms was a long time ago, I could be miles off or there may well be papers about it already, I just don’t see why so much emphasis is put on the way people dress (this would be why I find the idea of “what’s in” in terms of “fashion” ludicrous also), if it’s not harming anyone what is the problem exactly? What if all those TDs were comfortable and feeling a bit more relaxed at work.. Would they gain a fresh perspective and new ideas?
It sure would be interesting to find out..

I agree with Shelia here. They are given allowances in order to present themselves at the dail, they should do so. Neat and clean is all they need to be, it doesn’t even have to be a suit. Just put on a simple shirt and wash your hair.

The dail is both televised and recorded. Scenes from it are broadcast internationally. I cring when watching the news with a segment from the german or british parliments followed by a scene with wallace or daly in it. Do people abroad see this and laugh at us?

They shouldn’t even need to be told to clean themselves, but if they can’t manage it, then maybe a rule is the way.

For one – is it as a result of our prejudice or their appearance that this problem arises? Whatever happened to playing the ball and not the man? Surely actions speak louder than what you are wearing?
Or do you assume that anyone who doesn’t fit into this neat little world view (and the world laughed at us plenty when we had suits the length and breadth of Dáil Eireann y’know)
What do you make of the Lib Dem guy in the UK with the full facial tattoo and Mohawk?

Excuse the all over the place train of thought there.. Not at my best on so few hours sleep – the point was that do people really laugh at politicians simply because of how they look in the Dáil round the world? Because they were given more reason to laugh at the guys in suits..

Like I said, no need for a suit in my opinion. Just clean and neat would do just fine.

@ Shanti Om

These few ‘unkempt’ people to me, should lose their laundry, expenses allowance. Obviously, they are not using it. If they are not using it, take it from them.

I still stick by my opinion. Ms. Daly’s hair could do with a washing and her wardrobe refreshed. As with other two, new ‘work’ wardrope.

Shirts and suits don’t have to be expensive

Pity Haughey didn’t think so.

Don’t tell me you missed her party produced ‘fornication’ comment to distract from fine gael refusing to back the ULA bill to force through the ECJ directive allowing abortion in limited circumstances

Quick link:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0420/1224314970161.html

It’s quite disturbing that she represents the same county as inda. Honestly I’d rather have a TD dressed in a track suit or wrapped in a bloody pair of curtains fighting for our interests than this genius like her dressed in a power suit and matching rosary beads.

Yeah, but dress code on a golf course is even more stupid

No, not really.

Golf clubs are generally expensive places and are mostly for the members, rather than just the odd person paying the green fees there. They want their members, people who have money for expensive memberships, to feel they’re around people like them (as you would when joining a club of any type) and attract others like them to membership.

If you don’t like it, stick to the unmaintained corporation courses.

Golf Clubs are private institutions

If someone shows up to an interview and they don’t wear a suit – do you think they’ll get the job?

If someone shows up to a client meeting in their comfies – do you think they’ll win the business?

Have you ever watched dragons den and seen what happens to the people who don’t show up in their suit?

Regardless of how liberal your views, we all abide by the same rules in some form or another.

Those ‘scruffy’ td’s passed their job interviews when they were elected,wearing the exact same clothes as they do now.

That reflects worse on the people who voted for them than themselves to be honest.

I’ve met Richard Boyd Barret before, he’s a casual dresser and a nice guy and I say that despite disagreeing with his fundamentals entirely. He knows his audience though, his supporters are scruffy, job shy layabouts who are out to milk those who work (even further than they do now) so they don’t have to, and I say that having met them too.

Kevin – sorry but Richard Branson, Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, Michael O’Leary. All very succesful wealthy men and leaders in their field (even if one of the aforementioned is a wnkr). None of these men wear suits, so thats your theory busted.

@ Kevin,

Have to agree, the few that are dressed ‘down’ in our Dail remind me of bold teenagers going to school wearing a hoody instead of the school jumper. May if they looked clean, shaven and washed their hair (Ms Daly) every now and then they mighten look half as scruffy as they do. Even night clubs have ‘dress codes’.

@ Ann Reddin,

Ya, but they own their own companies! They can do what they like! These people get EUR2,500 a month for expenses, laundry, etc. If they’re not using their expenses money the way it’s supposed to be used, give it to an SNA, give it to the parents who have to pay for accomodation while their child is in Temple Street with cancer having threatment.

@Kevin,

“If someone shows up to an interview and they don’t wear a suit – do you think they’ll get the job?”

It’s not as if the TDs in question wore suits to trick the electorate and then surprised everyone by wearing what they wear. If they were elected dressed like that I’m sure those who voted for them were happy enough with what they saw.

Ghandi also wasn’t too fond of the suit

Look, it’s the Government, the Dail our version of the House of Commons, Stormont in the North, the House in Scotland, Germany, Italy, Greece, etc. etc. The Dail is the only place that has not got a rule, ‘dress appropriately’.

Yes, maybe the discussion/posts would be more positive if someone else had brought it up. Yes, she was a very silly, careless woman for bringing up the ‘fornication etc.’ but this is important. The world watches and many more are watching us at the moment. Let’s try and look professional, at least. We all know that there’s a % of them in there that need a good kicking but at least pretend to look like professional!

Sheila, you write as if I am against a dress code in the Dail

@Tokidoll

:( Not at all, I’m agreeing with you!

That’s cool Sheila, I wasn’t sure :-)

They’re representing us nationally and internationally. If they can’t be bothered to make themselves look half decent, why would you believe they’ll bother in any other areas of the job they’ve been tasked to do?

Conned?! Please, the Irish get what the Irish vote for. The Irish voted for FF to keep their own wallets fat despite the warning signs, particularly at the final GE that FF won. They voted to keep expenditure high and taxes low time and time again and surprise surprise it went tits up. Now it’s this vicious game of “it wasn’t me, it was them” *points at everyone else* being played by the same people who voted for FF (and now deny it to the ground) and ranting about how people were conned.

No, clothes themselves don’t. How you choose to represent yourself certainly is reflective of you as a person though.

It’s not a matter of budget either. You can pick up a decent suit, a nice pair of shoes and get a hair cut for very little money these days. It’s really a question of effort, and well, if you’re not going to put a little effort into representing yourself and others well, then why trust that you’ll put in effort elsewhere?

If the representatives I voted for thought the most important thing the Dail should be debating is a uniform I wouldn’t vote for them again.

Where was it implied that they thought it’s the single most important thing?

Can they not talk of other issues at all?

Maybe she thinks that scruffy clothes would lead to full on fornication.

Well said

Substance over Ego style, Mr Mulherin…get a grip on life.

Shane, you’re talking to a brick wall. There’s a massive disconnect between reality and the minds of the collective few here on TheJournal.ie. They are well and truly in LaLaLand and clearly have no idea how things work in the real world, let alone the politics or economics they attempt to drag into every single article on here, despite many having nothing to do with it.

Most people grow out of their “rebellious” teenage phase but it appears quite a number of TheJournal.ie commentators haven’t, as they spend their days on here ranting against society, the government, the middle and upper classes etc. whilst clearly offering absolutely nothing of value themselves in any way, shape or form.

The disconnect between the people here and reality is quite remarkable, I must say. They accuse the government and businesses of being disconnected from the working man, yet they themselves are far more detached from normality as is shown in the statements made by them here.

The evidence for this disconnect extends beyond the eyebrow raising “lolwtfs” their comments provide. A cursory glance at every poll conducted here on referenda or elections and the actual results shows that the people on this site are in no way a representation of the average, decent, working person in Ireland.

Hahahahaha hilarious Wolfgang! You accuse people who don’t agree with you are to be in lala land! Yet you are the one writing walls of waffle bs talking about dress code. I feel sorry for people like you, pretentious know it alls. My friend spent 30 hours in a and e this week in a bad way and you freaks talk up dress code? Jaysis get your priorities right.

And I think you will find the massive disconnect is between the government and the ordinary people of this country! Some of the most evil greedy people in the world wear suits in case you haven’t noticed. Jaysis….

Oh, I’m wrong, am I? The polls showing 80% against the last referenda were right, were they?

Also, correlation does not imply causation, or is that concept too high brow for you?

Sorry about your friend but quite frankly it has nothing to do with the topic at hand, I don’t know or care about them, so I don’t see why you’re bringing it up. Because you have absolutely no argument and just want a rant? Most likely.

No i brought it up to give a bit of perspective. This woman decides to talk about complete non issue while the countries services are a mess. She needs her head examined. We should not judge people on their attire but on their actions.

The effort one puts into how they represent themselves is absolutely reflective of how they are as a person. This includes how they dress, how they talk, how they behave themselves in social gatherings and the views they express.

When someone is elected to represent others, be it in politics, speaking on behalf of a company or even just on behalf of a community, they no longer merely represent themselves and can be judged as thus, they are representing those that have trusted them to stand at the front and express the collective opinion. They have a responsibility to represent those people, and themselves, well in doing so.

When dealing with important matters, be it an interview or matters of national importance, you should represent yourself and those who’ve chosen you to represent them as best you can and that extends into how you look (as appearance is how we primarily judge those we’re unfamiliar with), how you talk and how you act.

These things might be of little value to some people, who end up electing scruffy “rebels” who will, I promise you, achieve absolutely nothing for the people they’ve been elected to represent, will never serve in actual government and will retire nice and early, like those their electors criticize, on a fat, cushy pension. In fact, it’s those that ask so little of their representatives that are truly being taken for fools.

The government does indeed have a lot of important matters to deal with, but that doesn’t mean the small things should be relegated to non-importance either.

And no, it’s not the people in suits doing damage to the country now, it’s those on the public bill that are receiving celtic tiger era money and benefits and are protected by unions. They are costing the government €18bn more than it is earning per year, meaning we have to continue borrowing money to keep the country running. Try to cut these costs and these unions will call strikes and the country will grind to a halt.

We have some of the highest social welfare available, an enormous minimum wage and very generous tax bands. This is being funded by the “suits” as, and I will make this point once more as people seem to forget it, the highest paid here account for a disproportionate amount of the tax take in this country. So be thankful that those “suits” are still here paying their taxes so that those who are vocally against wealth or the government can continue to live their cushy lives.

If who you are is reflected in how you dress, then who can represent the scruffy if not the scruffy themselves? Do we not deserve political representation?

Well, that’s the point I made that Tara took issue with.

I said that scruffy political representatives are representing scruffy people who voted for them.

If scruffy layabouts want to elect scruffy layabouts who’ll represent them poorly and get nothing done then by all means go ahead, but lets not be under the illusion that they’ll change anything.

I’m glad you agree that a dress code is not necessary in the dail.

I don’t think I implied that if scruffy layabouts are elected, they should be let be scruffy layabouts while in the Dail.

They’re our nations Government buildings. They should dress appropriately or not be allowed attend. What they do on their own time, in their own constituency, with their voters is up to them.

Tony Gregory never wore a suit in his life, yet was one of the hardest working and most honest TDs we have ever had. Open your mind Wolfgang, look beyond the suit and see the person.

`Wow. Someone disagrees with you so automatically they are anti FF/FG? Personally I’d have no problem with what they wore as long as they were doing what they were elected to do to the best of their ability. Same applies to all in my opinion.

I’ve no problem with anyone disagreeing with me, just putting a question out there. Here’s another one; Can they really do what they were elected to do to the best of their ability wearing casual attire? Meeting foreign dignitaries? Speaking at events they’ve been invited to? Delivering important speeches? Engaging in negotiations? Representing Ireland abroad? All of this can be done in a t-shirt and jeans and get the results we want? I don’t think so.

What sort of society do you want Tokidoll? One where everyone has a basic standard of living and has food, shelter, a job and access to good education and healthcare and where the clothes they were mean nothing. Or the one you espouse where you have to wear something nice or you might offend some dignitary? As Vincent Browne says, the Irish love a bit of deference.

You can have both and still dress decently and take pride in your appearance, Martin.

It appears that concept is lost on you though.

When people take pride in things that’s soon followed by the belief that aspect they’re proud of makes them better than others. Would you think a man in a suit is better than a chap in short and a t-shirt? Course you would, but that says so much about you and your mentality that I’m sure you cry yourself to sleep at night just hoping for that one friend, if only someone would love you. Ad hominem attacks are so much fun sometimes.

Haha, yeah Martin, being proud of things you do in life is terrible.

What a surprising attitude from someone with a profile picture of themselves drinking cans on a green. Lol.

There is no way you can glean from my post what kind of society I espouse so I’ll thank you to refrain from such assumptions Martin.

As Wolfgang Weisen points out, you can have both. His posts, which are some of the best, most logical and sensible I’ve seen on this site, tell it as it is and in lieu of repeating him, I will merely second them.

That’s my back garden. I wish it was the green though. Wolfgang, do you need a friend? Are you this man? http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/internet/9324427/Man-convicted-of-sending-abusive-messages-to-Louise-Mensch-tells-court-his-computer-was-hacked.html

Hear hear!!

And he turns out to be a tax fraud and his son a bully.

Quelle surprise.

Ray Burke wore a suit, Charles Haughey wore a suit, Bertie Ahern wore a suit, Pee Flynn wore a suit, Liam Lawlor wore a suit, George Redmond wore a suit, Frank Dunlop wore a suit, Sean Fitzpatrick wore a suit, Patrick Neary wore a suit, Brian Cowen wore a suit, John ODonoghue wore a suit, Al Capone wore a suit…..need I say anymore about dress codes!

But the staff in Superquinn wear uniforms. Anyway would love to see the snotty nosed gits in the dole office wearing uniforms – I’m sure Herr Merkel has plenty that would be suitable!

Oh, I get it, Nazi uniforms, because she’s German, right?

Oh Ann, so witty and original.

Ann, I was stocking shelves in superquinn and having a uniform is a dress code.

And then I think it’ll be necessary to exclude anyone without experience of the “business world” from the Dail. And those without 3rd level education. Because sure none of those people could ever provide any useful insights. Then eventually you just limit anyone who’s not in FG from being in the Dail and you have a one party state. And Eoin O’Duffy is brought back to life and BANG, fascist zombie rules Ireland. I for one await the return of our fascist zombie overlord.

That is a ridiculous arguement to make, if the tds are representing me then I damn well expect them to dress appropriately. I don’t turn up to work in scruffy clothes with scruffy hair, it would not reflect well on me or the company I work for. Mick Wallace is a joke the way he presents himself.

Yeh and I feel sad you feel that’s important in life. I’d never do a job I was expected to wear certain clothes or alter my appearance to suit “social norms”. Brain washing is all it is, indoctrinating people to think that what’s on the outside is actually important. Not one’s intelligence or personality.

Yes, well I’m sure you’ll find the range of jobs available to you quite limiting so, Martin.

Some people’s sights are set higher than others, and at most reasonable career heights you’re expected to present yourself well and in a way that is respectable to you and the company (as in people) you’re in.

I have a couple of jobs Wolfgang. Or did you assume I was unemployed….because I disagreed with you probably. Tut tut ;) My sights are set on idiots like you who think what people wear is important. I suppose you’d be dismissive of almost every single poor person who can’t afford a nice fancy suit then? And obviously homeless people aspire to nothing because well, they only have one dirty jacket like :)

Martin, hygiene and a shirt from pennys are not be expensive. When these td’s claim 2500 in monthly expenses I expect them to wash their hair before appearing on television broadcast internationally. In their own office, or doing other constituency work they can go naked for all i care, but please be neat and clean for the dail.

Yes well it’s terrible attitudes like yours, Martin, that have you working a number of crap jobs instead of having one decent job.

I’m sorry you’ve done nothing with your life. I would say “but don’t automatically hate those who have” but then, your opinion, and other that of other low achievers, isn’t really valued in society, is it? So hate on little man.

What have you done with your life Wolfgang? Go on you know you want to tell us……
If you’re willing to make dumbass assumptions about others at least share with us the secrets of your success. Any jobs going ? ;)

I’d say he wears a suit or a nice uniform every day anyway. Just like Michael Lowry, Bertie Ahern, Adolf Hitler, Mussolini, Barack Obama, Angela Merkel, etc. And like none of those people every done anything bad :) And looked good doing it. Now, where did I leave my Hugo Boss gear….

As long as he’s qualified and competent to do the job I’d have every confidence in him.