Then don’t have kids. Otherwise, reign in your profligate spending.

Many parents find it really difficult to justify the cost of childcare after the second or third child, when you add in other expenses such as travelling to work.

We need proper tax relief for working parents – this really is a no-brainer as the money saved on a parent’s income tax will go straight back into the local economy, and will keep parents in jobs they would otherwise have reluctantly left.

A very caring and empathic comment there, Tim. Being the old fogey socialist that I am, I’m getting more and more aware of the gulf between the left-wingers of my day and the new breed of leftists making their voices heard today. We were naively aiming for a nation which would provide the very best environment for it’s residents equally. That includes children.

Not going to happen. If you have kids, be prepared to pay for the costs. Most people don’t do much research on cheaper alternatives to a creche. Namely, an Au Pair which is 50% cheaper.

If you can’t afford to eat, you shouldn’t expect to have access to food. Not a great argument, Chris and Tim.

I can see it now, ‘Anto and Whackers Daycare’

Nobody is making it difficult for mothers to work. You have kids at your own discretion – it is not the responsibility of others to provide you a work-free supplement just to have children.

Amazing. In Germany she pays 50 a month. Well it just goes to show you how much parents are bi=eing ripped off here by child minders.

Tim, why is it the responsibility of others to provide you with a road to drive your car, free education, unemployment benefit if you lose your job, tax relief on your pension contribution, a hospital if you get sick etc etc because it’s in the wider interest of society. I think most would agree affordable child care is in the wider interests of society (you obviously don’t). I’d rather the future generation growing up in a household with as little financial troubles as possible, both for their benefit and more selfishly for the wider benefit of the society I live in.

The lady only pays € 50 a month because she has been means tested and the Berlin government subsidises the rest of the €450. She is either a voluntary worker, an extremely low paid worker, unemployed or unable to work. It is misleading to take this as an example of the standard cost of child care in Berlin or anywhere else in Germany. How does the Berlin government pay for these subsidies? Far higher tax rates than in Ireland. You can’t have one without the other.

Where did I say it was what everyone pays? 450/500 is still a bargain. I disagree that a lot more taxes are required. In fact it may even be tax positive allowing a mother to deduct costs from gross pay before tax. Irish state still gets tax money from mother (though not as much) and doesn’t transfer additional tax credits to the father.

@ John – I didn’t say you did. But what you wrote could be misinterpreted as saying childcare costs € 50. It doesn’t. I’m not annoyed at you so much as I’m annoyed that what you said was picked up and used as a strengthener for a load of silly and mealy-mouthed arguments above. As it is, € 450 per child per month adds up. Three kids would be €1350. Yes, things are cheaper in Germany, mainly due to economies of scale ( 90m people versus under 5m ) and the German government’s policy to keep wages artificially low, but it’s no paradise. When the average industrial wage is €1400 a month gross, childcare itself is not significantly cheaper there relatively speaking. I don’t believe Irish childcare are ripping people off, the only difference is that Germany has a better subsidy scheme, paid for by h

Higher taxes. Sorry.

You will find the regulations specifying number of staff per child, minimum wage, rates all have a huge bearing. As well as rent or mortgage, energy costs & insurance etc. ireland is a very expensive place to do business and it is no different for child care.

I would guess most are surviving and not ripping off as you suggest.

“not ripping off as you suggest”, I didn’t suggest anything. I asked. If the costs are genuine then fair enough, but as a parent I’d like to understand what those costs are. Once there is an understanding of the costs then it might be possible to address them and providers could reduce the prices.

I seed the red thumbers prefere the “rip off” theories.

Ok lets take a back of the envelope example of a 0-12 month old which regulations DICTATE must have a carer ratio off 1:3 so you need 1 adult for every 3 kids. Minimum wage is €8.65 so for one staff member working a 40 hour week thats €346. Divide that by a 3 to get the cost per child = €115 but most creches are open 12 hours a day not 8, so increase by 50% = €173 per week this means the carer only staff cost per baby is approx €700 per month. Obviously this will be a good deal less for older children as the ratio is less.

Also I’m assuming the staff are on the minimum wage and I would guess that only newbies are on minimum wage and that pay is better for senior more experienced staff who in my experience look after the younger children. Added to that staff cost for only the direct carer you also have the cost of the cleaner, the cook, the manager, the assistant manager and you also have to add on employer PRSI costs & possibly pension contributions, extra staff to cover sickies etc etc.

Then factor in electricity, gas, rates, water rates, insurance, fees for umpteen inspection quangos (i’m guessing here but each industry has at least one quango haunting them). advertising, telephones, stationery, rent or mortgage, repairs & renewals, food & other consumables, staff training etc etc etc

Tell me Damocles where do you see room to cut, cut the ratios, cut the minimum wage, turn the heating down, cheapen the food?

Childcare is an expensive business the best we can hope for is tax relief.

They maybe charging for their time, most parents will agree that their time spent with their children is priceless but then question an amount that someone else has decided to put on it.

@ Martin that’s called profit margin.

Believe it or not PROFIT is legal and necessary or else you go out of business.

Plus or minus 10% depending on occupancy. Most are struggling to break even with current occupancy rates.

For the usual. BIG PROFITS, You can be sure they are not offering their “service” at reasonable rates because simply they know parents working need it.

@ Chris

Of course you have evidence of these BIG PROFITS haven’t you? Enlighten us?

Tell me What part of the public service do you work in?

@Gavin. I would have thought it was obvious. In Germany as cited by a commentator a parent pays 50 euro a month and here its ten times as much. read the threads. Why gavin do you think they operate to break even? They child minding business is like any other business. They are there to make BIG profits because if they were not then they would not provide their service. Simple as that. And by the way, Every citizen living in Ireland knows only too well that most of the time we are being screwed by businesses by their over pricing. Its general knowledge.

@chris – thats a No to having any sort of information on the BIG PROFITS then is it? Of course they’re there to make a healthy profit, doesn’t mean they are though.

Blimey Gavin. I asked a simple question and you came back quite belligerently. Can’t imagine why.

When I’m buying a service I like to know what I’m paying for, whether it’s fixing my car or getting childcare. That way I know if I’m getting a good deal. You seem to be saying “It’s expensive because it’s expensive, Ireland’s expensive!”, which isn’t something I can relate to.

You provide some rather generalised costs and then get a bit nebulous with fees for umpteen inspection quangos and so on.

I’d rather see some real figures to understand where my money is going, as someone comments below, a private school education is cheaper, and as many say childcare in most other countries is cheaper too.

On a wider point people say “Oh we need tax relief.” That might just exacerbate the problem, providers will continue to charge as much as the market can bear, price matching will continue and their profits will rise.

Take Giraffe Childcare, according to Duedil:

Giraffe Childcare is split between 3 shareholders. Giraffe Childcare have total assets of EUR3,965,452 plus total liabilities of EUR7,222,820. Last year, they paid EUR-2,910 in tax and had EUR3,497,718 in cash reserves. According to their last financial report, the business made a gross profit of EUR14,063,554. Their net worth is EUR324,986, and the value of their shareholders’ interest is EUR324,986.

Not really struggling.

@ Damocles perhaps you should ask every business you know of private, semi state that lot what their costs and profits are I’m sure it is your right to know.

Regarding Giraffe Healthcare according to the CRO they were established in 2000 and according to you have a net worth of €324,986 which means they have accumulated profits of €27K approx per year.presuming 12 years of accounts. No perhaps the directors are taking out a fortune in salary I don’t know but accumulated profits of €324K make Giraffe worth about as much as a middle class 50 year old with the mortgage paid.

I’ll ask you the same question I asked Chris (but funnily enough got no answer) where do you work in the public service? I ask becuse economic reality for most public servants I know starts and finishes with whether there is money in their ATM on a weekly basis and other than that everything is a rip off except them. Public servants also don’t appear to understand what Gross Profit is, they think it is money in the bank.

@ Chris – German kindergartens and other child-care facilities do not cost €50 a month. They cost in the region of €450-€450 a month. The cost of the Kindergarten is subsidised by a voucher system that covers a percentage of the cost. The percentage is calculated by means testing the parents, also factoring in the age of the child/children and the working hours of both parents. The is also a limited amount of vouchers per year, so there is an element of “first come, first served”. So it does mean that ( some ) costs are less for parents, but the only reasons that the cost of providing child are less is that properties, wages and insurance cost the providers less.

perhaps you should ask every business you know of private, semi state that lot what their costs and profits are I’m sure it is your right to know.

When I get my car fixed I look at the bill, if I feel that the profit on parts or the charge on labour is exhorbitant then I don’t use that garage any more. Crazy, I know. I should just pay what’s charged and forget about it. It’s Ireland! It’s expensive! These people have bills!

So if I’m paying hand over fist for childcare I like to know what I’m getting and whether I’m being over charged. Maybe I should just roll over and pay whatever I’m charged, after all … It’s Ireland! It’s expensive! These people have bills!

perhaps the directors are taking out a fortune in salary I don’t know No, you don’t. After all … It’s Ireland! It’s expensive! These people have bills! But you could look and see that the three directors have taken about 100K out each in the last few years, but then they’re based in Blackrock … It’s Blackrock! It’s expensive! These people have bills!

I’ll ask you the same question I asked Chris (but funnily enough got no answer) where do you work in the public service?

Maybe Chris thought it was a stupid question. I know I do.

@ Damocles If I owned a crèche I would happily provide an itemised bill for those that insist on it….I would charge extra for it of course because there is a cost to produce it.

I don’t think asking some one who is commenting on the private sector where they work is a silly question. It helps other contributors ascertain where exactly how a persons viewpoint was ascertained.

Surely that is fair enough. However whenever I ask the “rip off, no evidence ” moaners where they work they go silent very quickly.

You didn’t ask where Chris or I worked, you made an assumption that we both work in the public sector and asked where we work in it. Maybe I don’t work in the public sector, maybe I just thought that way you posed the question was infantile.

whenever I ask the “rip off, no evidence ” moaners where they work they go silent very quickly.

I never said that there was necessarily a rip off. I simply asked what the costs were.

There’s an article in today’s independent that says that costs of childcare in Ireland are 20% to 41% of earnings. In the rest of the EU it averages 12%. Why the excessive cost .. oh … yeah … It’s Ireland! It’s expensive! These people have bills!

*rolls over*

*pays*

Ok Damocles…simple question where do you work and what do you work as?

“where do you work and what do you work as?”

That’s none of your business. I work hard, I pay my taxes, I contribute to society and take scant little out. That’s all you need to know.

@ Damocles we only have your word on that what have you got to hide? Are you providing value for money or are you ripping off?

Bit of a double standard too when you expect full details of the income and expenditure of your crèche but don’t even divulge your real name.

“we only have your word on that what have you got to hide?”

If you don’t want to believe me … well … see how much I care.

Bit of a double standard too when you expect full details of the income and expenditure of your crèche but don’t even divulge your real name.

No, not really. I’m not providing a service to any creche. So whether or not I provide my real name to you or it is irrelevant in these circumstances.

What I do for a living, how much I earn, what tax I pay and so on are none of your business. What you do for a living, how much you earn, what tax you pay and so on are none of my business. What various business I deal with do are a matter of public record and when I’m dealing with them I can look them up, if I want to ensure I get value for money I’m allowed to, these are all normal things.

If one company is doing business with another business does it do a bit of due diligence and see if it’s a good company to do business with? Why should a private individual not do the same?

Irish people cant afford to have large families while migrant families are having more and more children and getting more and more welfare. I work in maternity services so I see this everyday. There needs to be an incentive for the natives to try and repopulate this country.
We’ll be a minority in 50 years.

Well said Tommy. If the children get a proper foundation we may have some hope in the future. I can sympathise with parents who are struggling, but planning a family is no easy task and it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to realise that it’s going to be expensive. The bottom line on child care costs in Ireland are due to exorbitant overheads which include rates, insurance,PRSI, water charges, heating, lighting, staff training, materials, food and drinks and that’s all before you take into consideration rent or mortgage, maintenance on the property, accountancy fees. It seems to me that parents seem to think that looking after their children is a doddle because they see them for about an hour in the morning and no more than 3 hours before their tucked up in bed while the child care facility see them for the other waking hours. What price do you put on that. I know a person in the child care sector who sees more of some children then their parents do

Why does the government need to address this? If you cannot be bothered to search the internet for cheaper alternatives to a crèche, then you are either illiterate or lack computer skills. I will help you: visit Gumtree and look for an Au Pair – significantly cheaper than a crèche. Another poster pointed this out below.

why have more children if you can’t afford the one you have?????????????/

@tim jackson….have you used an au pair or do you have children? I’m guessing neither!
Two reasons why many people don’t! 1) space….need to provide a bedroom for an au pair. Not many people have an extra room to spare!! Due to negative equity etc, people are often stuck in smaller homes
2) childcare qualifications and continuity of childcare…many au pairs are young and not trained in childcare, plus it is difficult to get au pairs to stay long term….meaning a child may have many au pairs!
So many reasons why govt should address childcare, one for example is the loss of tax revenue from a qualified experienced employee (always the mother!) who is forced to give up work!

The main reason not to hire an au pair is the insurance nightmare if either the au pair or your child suffers a spot of harm.the grey area is just too wide.

Plus an au pair is a student here to learn English, and do some light housework. Not be a nanny while you go out to work.

I am an au pair currently living in Boston, I’ve been here for 10 months. Before moving here I worked in a crèche for five years. I would disagree with a lot of what has been said here. Firstly it usually does not work out cheaper to have an au pair, if you want to be legitimate. There are fees to agencies. The point of having an au pair is convenience. With a daycare, usually children aren’t allowed attends when they are sick or the scheduling doesn’t always suit, that’s when an au pair works our. Secondly, insurance is not an issue if you go about hiring a nanny the correct way as agency almost always has an insurance company involved in the program that offers discounts. Au pairs are not required to do housework except that involves cleaning up after the kids. It’s not an easy job, I take care of twins 48 hours a week. Also the comment about the girls just looking to learn English, again go through an agency. I have many qualifications and years experience working with children, the majority of the other au pairs I have met have perfect English, sometimes people just want a change of scenery. Like I said at the start I also worked in a small crèche before I left home. This crèche charged €145 per week. This was 5 days childcare from 7.30am to 6pm. I honestly don’t know anything about tax relief or anything like that, I won’t pretend I do, but I do know something about the expense of running a crèche. Insurance is very expensive, if your equipment, staff qualifications, work areas aren’t up to satisfaction, you will not get the numbers needed to keep the business afloat. Staff do not get paid a great amount, I’ve been paid better in bar work, the majority of the time people in the small businesses do it because they love it.

@ Sarah – thank you for your comment. It’s always good to get information from someone who knows what they’re talking about.

Don’t have kids if you cannot afford the associated costs.

Tim,

Quick question,
How much would you suggest someone should earn before being “entitled to having a child”?

Also Tim aren’t you the same rabid socialist who comments regularly here on the journal, you seem terribly confused, so which are you, a proponent of this neo right wing garbage or a supporter of a fairer just society.
C’mon Tim pick a side

Tim wont answer he only trolls for about half an hour a day…

Mícheál Mac Conchoille,

As the poster above mentioned, visit Gumtree and hire an Au Pair. You realize a crèche is the most expensive form of childcare?

Michael why didn’t you take these costs into consideration before you had children???? You made a decision to have children so in fairness why should you be subsidised for that choice.

@ Tim and chris – ‘just don’t have kids if you cant afford them’ doesn’t really work now does it? And while I’m sure you’re having a nice little wind up to pass the time, in reality, if people were to take your advice, well the only people who would be having children are the wealthy and the feckless who just don’t care. Besides which, we need a steady stream of kids to pay for our population which continues to live longer than the rest.

Not only Chris does this government not have any kind of system in place to help family’s with child care but they also penalise couples that are not married and living together by not allowing them claim the tax credits for their children unless they get married but should they separate then they can claim the child’s tax credit !!! I have friends in that situation and just to add that if one of them lost their job this wonderful government will not allow them unemployment assistance as they maintain that the partner is responsible for that person as well as the children !! the Irish are being screwed !!!!!!!!!

What tax relief for children? There is none, there is only “Incapacitated Child Tax Credit can be claimed by a parent/guardian of a child who is permanently incapacitated, either physically or mentally.”

One-parent families get tax relief, married or co-habiting parents do not.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/birth_family_relationships/family_benefits_and_entitlements.html

Passing the time you time. And what are you doing. I didn’t know you were psychic and knew my day.

@chris – I don’t know what that 1st sentence was meant to be, maybe you could try again. What am I doing? Well, that’s of no concern to you now is it? And I have no psychic abilities to speak of but I would think I can get a good handle on people, sometimes through how they structure their posts and how wafer thin and badly thought out their argument is, combined with the fact that they usually offer no alternative to the point in question. They just repeat the same tired old point in order to wind up some stranger for the craic. Hope that helps.

Are you prepared to pay for this? Didn’t think so…

So we’re raising taxes to pay for this then?

no we’re not raising taxes to do it, we’re removing all child benefit for children between 1 and 5, we’re encouraging more stay at home parents back to work, alieviating their social welfare claims, creating more tax payers who will spend more money creating jobs and even more tax payers , never mind removing barriers to having more than one child so securing tax payers for the future who will pay for Your pension…

an Tim why ask questions and just answer them yourself? how do you know what I’m willing to pay for? I don’t have any kids but I’m not nieve enough to think I’m not already paying for the situation we have with childcare in this country at the moment… are you?

You cannot dictate policy. That is selfish thinking.

Dara, Tax reliefs resulted in economic collapse when the financial crisis hit.

Hi Mark
Pray tell what do you do during the ‘winter months’ when the au-pairs have gone home? Most crèches have strict policies about when and for how long you can leave your children, i.e. it’s almost as expensive to leave your child in for three days as five.

Mark you dont have much idea…au pair are useless for small babies. Either it all ends up in tragedy as most of them have no infant childcare qualifications or either they are going to leave when it proves to be chore or for any other reason. You get what you pay, dont you know that old truth? Not everyone has also spare room in house and or is willing to live with stranger.

Citation needed.

we need as many chizlers as we can pop out at the moment…

Have u seen what goes on in china??? Poor innocent unwanted babies, predominantly female, are just thrown in the bin like garbage!!! What a horrible rule to live by…

And who is there to pay taxes in the future? What people seem to forget is the children of today are the taxpayers of tomorrow.

Well said Paul, this is one of the major problems of Japanese, German, French etc. economies, aging pensioner population…

You are wrong at many levels. What can you say about the fact that I know many mothers who left their work because it wasnt worth to keep working against so high childcare costs and they immediately signed onto jobseekers payment? Do you know how much money state is losing for social payments, rather than subsidize childcare and keep women in employnent? Even monkey can calculate that I think, but government not.

Chris, many people had a child when they could afford to do so, but life is unpredictable!!
Relationships breakdown, the economy goes, jobs are lost, people suffer bad health and can no longer work…the list goes on.
I find many people use this excuse when they don’t have children, as they may not want to admit that they don’t want children or just don’t feel ready!

@Siobeli I hear you and i understand your point. Its not easy or straight forward. There are many things to be considered. I just think that its wrong because in the end the child will be the one in between.

Children are all you have…to hell with houses, cars and holiday when you are old and rich and lonely. Hopefully you dont realize that when its too late!

Genuine question: How do mothers that quit a job to raise children qualify for jobseekers payment? Is it not a condition that they be actively available and seeking work?

Karen Gillen: theoretically you are correct. However many mothers claim it believe me… Its dead easy to pretend you look for job and get your dole. I am not condoning that and not saying its right thing to do, of course its not, but reality is people do that because of stupid system in place. Also if mother is unemployed it automaticaaly gives them right for other benefits as income per family drops by large. Therefore much smarter move by givernment would be to try to keep them employed not otherwise like it is now.

@ Fizi

I wondered was it merely a matter of deception on the part of claimants. I gave up my job to stay at home with my 2 so hubby changed tax credits and apart from the universal child benefit we neither get nor claim a cent. Himself works hard to fully support us and I focus on smarter management of a smaller budget. Perhaps I’m the big eejit for being straight up and neither expecting nor asking for anything other than of my husband, but ultimately a clear conscience has no price me. I’d rather that than telling lies every week for the sake of a social welfare payment.

Karen Gillen: and fair play to you. I don’t know either how exactly that works, as never cheated SW and don’t planning to, but I bet there are hundreds of women doing that. I sometimes talk to different people at the playgrounds, etc. and it seems to be a fairly common practice.
Of course doesn’t really work for women who were in good well paid jobs, but then those women hardly ever struggle with childcare cost, don’t they..?

Fizi, the people in the average paid jobs which is quite a good salary pay most of the taxes while those very well off and those on welfare pay nothing. Its the average earner in this country who is screwed.

Arent your kids worth you being ripped off? Is that what your saying?

I think your missing the point Maura. I’m guessing in your time it was actually illegal for a women to have a job after starting a family. Thankfully that is no longer the case. I would have thought you would be happy to see the progression of women’s rights. Having a family and working should not be mutually exclusive. Also we find ourselves in a situation where family’s are stretched and need a second income. Remember the number of people that have been forced out of cities to commuter towns, they need a car if not two. Bad political mistakes of the past have caused that. The geo demographics has to be looked at. So to make simplistic off the cuff remarks is unhelpful to this debate.

Hi Eilish (and all others who say stop having children),

Please explain how we’ll (Ireland) keep the country going and pay for our pensions,etc. in twenty, thirty, forty, etc. years without our children to succeed us?
Dara

How many is ‘so many’?

Hi Tim
I appreciate that point, however I am speaking from experience. Yes it’s great being home with the girls and it’s better for them, etc. it’s also better for them to socialise with other kids, and to live in a house that doesn’t have to worry about money and paying the bills. As I said this isn’t new, friends of our complained to have some form of relief in the mid-nineties to no avail. Tell me Tim, if relief isn’t the favoured option what alternatives are there?
Dara

It’s very obvious you don’t have children or any intention of having children!!!
If people don’t have children who are going to pay tax in the future, when you retire!!!

The A + E departments would say that that’s exactly what the Health service does.