Not to forget the option to home school your own children under your own patronage, which you are entitled to do so under the law in Ireland.

So only rich kids get to have a Religious education then? Doesn’t seem fair to me.

The Church can educate them on Saturday and Sunday’s if they want. I can’t see why that would cost money Seán.

If your so set on them getting a catholic education, teach them yourselves. Why should the state ponder to yours or others beliefs.

Maybe the state could run a concurrent survey asking parents about the relevance of teaching Irish in schools too ? Maybe the parents who insist this language is of benefit to the children, would consider teaching it at home also ? Think of all the extra time the teachers would have to teach relevant useful subjects.

@Ann forcing a religious doctrine on people is not quite the same as learning a language – particularly one that is needed for teaching posts, solicitors, guardai, etc.

Learning Irish doesn’t contradict any other subject, in fact my bi lingual son is at an advantage when learning a European language. However religion runs contrary to science and logic.

@Sean – “So only rich kids get to have a Religious education then? Doesn’t seem fair to m”

You are correct. It’s not fair on the rich kids to dump that crap on this. It’s not their fault they were born wealthy.

And it is not just time in RE classes – the religious ‘formation’ imbues the whole curriculum in an Irish primary school – read here exactly how it is included in every subject taught – right from Junior Infants – I found this chilling reading:
http://www.education.ie/en/Press-Events/Conferences/Patronage-and-Pluralism-in-the-Primary-Sector/Patronage-Forum-Submissions-November-2011-/Organisations-November-2011/Department-of-Religious-Studies-and-Religious-Education-St-Patrick%E2%80%99s-College-Drumcondra-.pdf

JoJo the vast majority of schools in Ireland were built and manned by the faith institutions at their own initial expense. The original staffing salaries were paid by the faith institutions. Sure the state has recently helped along with expansion and maintenance of these buildings and also with salaries for non-vocational staff.

Thus we can reasonably argue that these institutions are entitled to teach their faith if you want your child to attend their faith subsidised school.

Now we had 2 of our children enrolled in a “non-denominational” school which turned out to have Roman Catholicism snuck in the back door.
Later we moved them to the local Roman Catholic School and asked them to be exempt from religious education classes. We were told this was not really an option as they had not staffing to oversee them.

As a matter of principal we removed the children and home schooled them for the following 4 years.
Other parents saw the success we were having and asked if we could assist them in doing the same.
These parents did not have English as their first language so as a result we started our own school, which receives no state help or funding even though we have taken 14 children out of the state subsidised system.

You as an Irish citizen have a multitude of options available to you as you have huge freedom to educate your children as you see fit, so long as it maintains a reasonable educational standard.
In many European countries you have no option other than state institutions, if you are of a faith community you cannot send you child to a faith based institution but are forced to permit them to undergo secular humanistic, evolutionary indoctrination.
There are people in Germany in jail for trying to have their children taught the truth, against state propaganda, using laws enacted in 1938.

Hi Simon, if the state forces the faith communities to remove their faith teachings from the timetable then we will end up with a bunch of institutions closing down schools.
The state has neither the manpower, operating budget, nor the capital budget to invest in the properties which would be required.
If the 96% of faith based schools suddenly pulled the plug it would be totally catastrophic.

Leigh, firstly I called for the removal of the exemptions in the Equalities Acts forbidding schools to discriminate on grounds of belief (in line with Article 9 of the ECHR) and secondly I called for religious schools to teach their faith outside of normal school hours. You somehow interpreted this to mean that all school boards with a religious element would collapse leading to an national crisis and an educational vacuum. What utter sensationalist nonsense. There is nothing to support that hypothesis. The introduction of equality for admissions and Sunday school for the religious will not see the collapse of our education system.

If parents want Catholic kids, then let *them* do the job of indoctrination, not the schools.

I suspect the majority or so called Catholic parents keep the tag for the Communion and Confo payload their kids get. If they had to spend the amount of time wasted on religion classes over 14 years their kids spend in school themselves, there’d be a significant reduction in the census figures of those declaring themselves Catholic!

I would say that religion as it is currently taught in Catholic schools anyway imbues the whole curriculum and seeks to ‘form’ faith, rather than educate about the faith. Faith education in the home in the parents’ belief system often amounts to ‘formation’ of faith too. Is this really morally acceptable that we should, whether at home or in schools, seek to indoctrinate our children into our own specific faith? I think it is morally reprehensible whether at home or in school – I can’t believe people think it is OK! Obviously we all have that streak of wanting others to believe what we believe – whether Christian or Humanist – but get a grip – this doesn’t mean it is moral to deliberately seek to brainwash small impressionable children!

I think even the rhetoric about teaching children values, right from wrong, etc. has been infected by notions of them being born sinful and needing to have good put into them. Chill out for god’s sake – they are not evil – they are good and beautiful and they will likely follow adult examples of pro-social (or not!) behaviour rather than any prescriptive religious doctrine, against which they can only find themselves lacking.

in time they will. but they need small scale polls to assess a general consensus.

As a Catholic I would like to send my children to Catholic school. However I do not expect that to be the way for everyone so an even mix means that parents have a choice. To insist on non-denominational is as dogmatic as insisting on all-Catholic.

If you want to force your religeious beliefs on your children you should do it in your own time. School should be for real education only.

For what reason Ciara? You can easily teach your children about your religion outside of school, they don’t require a school representing a certain religion to learn about it. Schools should be about education in terms of given a child the ability to function in the world, for that they do not require religion. Religion should be a choice of parents to teach outside school.

Even mix doesn’t work in areas where there is only demand for a single school. You can’t put a Catholic, Muslim, Jewish and non-denominational school in Kilanuskully!

Non-denominational is the only practical way to have a school system in place that works for everyone. Religion has nothing to do with education. That’s what churches are for, not schools.

If I wanted my kids learn circus skills I wouldn’t expect the state tom provide schools to teach them. I’d expect to have to pay for extra lessons outside of schools at a specialist circus funded organisation…

Every year the leaving and junior cert results are out everyone wonders why the sciences and maths results are poor. From the age of 4/5 religion was drilled into our heads. Hard to believe we find reliable knowledge that can be rationally and logically explained hard when we are to accept that a man performed miracles and returned from the dead without any proof. That also effects the analytical reasoning required for mathematics. If you want your child to be a believer in any religion do it on your own time, evenings, Sunday school etc.

Ciara, educate together schools teach their pupils all religions, if parents want to rent a room in the school and hold individual religious education classes after hours they can discuss with school.
Educating your children in all faiths and rearing them in your own is a great method of teaching tolerance and understanding.
In secondary they will have to learn this so a good understanding and knowledge base is essential.
In my opinion they are some of the best run schools in the country!

Paul Mc… In my reply which I put in the wrong section (doh!!) i have said I live in the UK so educate together not relevantfor me. But i am familiar with them and they look great. Very important children grow up learning love, tolerance and respect. As I said in my other post, the people who really know what is important in a school are the leaders, teachers, support staff and children. Has anyone or willanyone ask them?

I don’t think religion should be thought in schools as a belief but as part of the historical studies! All religions should be thought to kids this way so that they can understand the diversities of human beliefs! A child should be given the right to choose their own beliefs from the knowledge they gain from these studies when they are old enough to make that choice… That’s my opinion!

Taught*

Oswald, that was a non-sensical argument. Belief in the supernatural has nothing to do with mathematical ability. From personal experience, the poor attainment in Maths is due to disillusionment in the subject e.g. “I’m never going to use this in real life” attitude and laziness, brought about by the general difficulty of the subject. Moreso, some people are just not born with mathematical ability so they struggle through this compulsory subject.

People reading each others’ comments on this website must all believe that the whole country is in agreement with them in wanting non- denominational schools. I have a number of close friends working in public schools in varying socioeconomic areas in Dublin and they all say that the vast majority of pupils make their communion and confirmation with their parents’ enthusiasm and issues are almost never raised about religion being taught. Outside of thejournal, I would say their are a sizeable number of parents in favour of retaining the present system.

@Ciara, its a parents responsibility to teach their children values like respect, tolerance, love as well as how to deal with anger, depression, anxiety. Not something you should be leaving up to a religion or a school!

@Alan, many people just go along with it for the easy life, it’s the Irish way, I’d imagine vast numbers of families who partake in baptism, communion, confirmation will have never seen a church outside those days apart from maybe weddings and funerals. They put down they are catholic because it leads to an easy life and some fun days out.

I will not bend to this way of thinking and my children (when I have some) will not be baptised, they will not be taught religion, they will be given as much information from me as they want and they can make up their own mind. But because that is the way I strive to bring up my children I will find it next to impossible to get my children into a local school and if I do they run the risk of being shunned. In 2012 this is not an acceptable way to run an education system.

Donal, you are right it is a parent’s responsibility… But all parents do not do all the things that the parental textbook indicates! I believe all parents should read to their children, but all do not so we teach children how to read in school alongside all other kinds of things which they may not learn in their home environment.

Of course but right from wrong and a child’s behavioral upbringing has very much to do with their parents and should not be something as part of a curriculum whether it be religious or not.

@ Joy.. I agree… I’m due my baby in 3 weeks and hope that by the time the child goes to school, all schools will be non-denominational then.. and I’m a catholic but that is what I want for my child… A non denominational school!

Sergé, sorry but I have to disagree with you. As a child being told something and just accepting its true without any proof or investigation can effect you education in some subjects, engineering, sciences and mathematics. As an example, take physics. If you just accepted what was being thought without investigating further the level of theories and knowledge would still be in the 1700’s. It narrows the mind and hinders progress. Same goes for different branches of mathematics. Of course the attitude you mentioned would be a major issue with the subject as it is with all subjects to some extent.

It also helps if you have a teacher that can actually teach the subject and not hand you the book and say do it

Yes Joy.
You got my thumbs up.

Sounds like a school that spends more time learning science than science fiction ;-)

I live in the UK, so I am coming at this from a slightly different angle. but I can tell you that my daughter was nurtured and cared for as an individual in a school led and staffed by mostly Catholics. interestingly the school is popular with Muslim families because they want to their children to attend a spiritual school. spiritual does not mean Catholic. My daughter wasn’t indoctrined and RE was only a part of what she learned. the most important people in schools are the leaders, teachers and support staff. they are who really influence the children as they grow and who know what the best educational provision looks like! has anyone asked them what they think!

Barry, I am an atheist but I approve of my children being educated and informed of all faiths as it is teaches them respect and tolerance of others, no tolerance and you end up with similar problems to what is going on in the north.
By all means have religion in school, but educate and inform of all faiths, not just the brainwashing that goes on in some schools.

I live in the UK too, Ciara. It seems to me that people want to send their kids to Catholic schools because of better education standards. Literally, waiting lists on all the Catholic schools around me in North London are sky high, particularly from non-Catholic families. It has been claimed that it is down to the very selective behaviour of Catholic schools when accepting applications. I don’t know whether this is true or not but its an opinion held by several people I’ve spoken to about Catholic education in the UK.

Ann-Marie we have the same in Oxford. “Selection process” admissions policies in Catholic schools favour baptised, practising Catholics primarily. But due to the demand, by baptised Catholics a lot of non-Catholics will not get in to the schools. This is not the place to air my opinions about why this is the case in the UK. But I will say that cities in the UK can have disparate communities, due to their size and their diversity. I think a local parish school goes someway to providing a community/village feel when you live in a city?! NOT saying this is the case for all people, it is merely my take on it.

Sorry – I know I’m slightly going off topic talking about the UK but Ireland can certainly learn from looking to their neighbours experiences. Apparently Catholic schools are the most ethnically diverse in the UK. There seems to be a belief among people that Catholic schools have better education standards. What annoys non-Catholics is that the schools are supplemented by the state and are not inclusive; this goes without saying for all faith schools but the Catholic schools seem to get the most slack.

This is a huge debate in Scotland, where Catholic schools are often cited for the sectarian problem in the West of Scotland. Opponents of school segregation based on religion would point out that the church schools divide young people that attend – an ‘us’ against ‘them’ attitude that Scotland has never got rid of unfortunately. I hardly think that many kids are taking their religion so seriously as to hate another person for religion based mainly on what school they attend – one has to look at other factors (parents and their upbringing etc). But it is certainly felt that they contribute a great deal to these divides.

Yeah I went to a Catholic Comprehensive school in Mansfield, Notts and there was massive demand to get in because educationally it was miles ahead. You could only get in the secondary by attending a feeder catholic primary or transferring as a practicing Catholic moving into the areas. The standards were mainly because the feeder primary’s refused to let in more than 30 kids a year unless the extras were baptised or had siblings in the school. Led to much smaller class sizes and thus standards than the non-denominational state schools.

Totally wrong! Over 3 hours a week on Math and 2 and a half on RE.

That’s still way too much. What was I learning in my secular school in Australia while you were learning about the magic man in the sky?

I went to a Catholic school and we were NEVER taught that people from other religions go to hell. If she’s being told this in the run up to a holy communion then there’s something seriously wrong with the teacher. No need to tarnish all schools with this!

Go to hell??? No teacher, not even a priest would tell that to a 8 year old child! Dont b ridiculous. Your child goes to a catholic school,if thats a problem im sure theres other schools, but its obviously not a big problem if u let ur child remain there if that is what there being thought!

She said her child was told by other /children/ that she will go to hell.

Kitty u might want to read her comment again

Sharon, 90+% of Irish schools are Catholic. So statistically she would have to have ten schools within reasonable driving distance to have one not Catholic school. Are you seriously saying she should have to move to have her child not have hurtful things said to her?

No im not saying that. My child was baptised, my child is in a catholic school, because thats wher i choose to send her, i could hav sent her to the ” educate together” school which is much closer but i want her in a catholic school, to learn nd experience the same things i did..why should a system that has been in place for god only knows how long, why should it change!

You don’t know that no priest or teacher would say that so I believe it is you that is being ridiculous! I am atheist by choice. I attended 3 different schools and 2 out of the 3 taught that logic. I challenged a religion teacher with a perfectly reasonable question, which she could not answer, and was told pretty much the same thing! It is not that many years ago that the logic of “believe in god or go to hell” was taught in all schools and unfortunately not all are up to date. Also, this might be the only school this reader can send her daughter to. Educate together schools are not only hard to find but also it is hard to get a child’s name on the register. I know of one in my local area. Compared to about 20 or more catholic schools. I’m shocked that you think these teachings don’t still exist. Think more with your brain and less with your bible;)

It should change because Ireland changed.

You were right about me not reading her original comment right, though. I read the first bit and jumped on you when I shouldn’t have, sorry.

@Sharon….we should always seek to change (read ‘improve’) and the attitude of ‘Why change’ will never see us progress at any level.

I don’t believe it Mary. Once maybe, twice at a stretch, but again & again?
I think there is something else going on here as children are not taught that rubbish at school.

Sharon telling lies again, your comment below says your child is in a mixed school, now you say your child is in a catholic school. You are pathetic.

There is a lot of rubbish taught at school, it usually starts at the religion class and ends when it finishes!:)

Look at d comments u moronic fool… Catholic school- with a large mix of religions, and races!

I did look at the comments Sharon, and you said your child was in a mixed school, though it seems that your definition of a mixed school is different to everyone else’s definition of a mixed school. Pretty much every school in the country has children of different races and religions, its 2013 you know.

Mary, if you ever find the person who told those kids that could you point them in the direction of the concept of purgatory and its mention in Councils of Trent, Vatican I and Vatican II?

I went to a Catholic run primary school in a very rural area. There were about 30 kids altogether in the whole school. This was in the mid-late 90s, and I was the only one there that was non-religious. Same thing in Secondary School. This is what I experienced:

Primary school, the priests would visit regularly and bully me in front of the whole class for not believing in God. No one did anything. (One of those priests would cross the street when passing me or my family!)

Kids would ask me if I was going to hell (but in a curious way mostly, haha).

Secondary school: my cousin who’s also non-religious was forced to turn her desk to face the rest of the class because she didn’t believe in God. (Parents kicked up a fuss and the school eventually apologised but the nun who did it continued teaching).

I was brought to church regularly and had to sit through masses, stations of the cross etc because they wouldn’t arrange for me to be supervised in school when the class went.

Holy water was regularly thrown on me “in order to save my soul” so I wouldn’t go to hell by some of the teachers.

My family was lucky as I was a blow-in with a German mother so they usually excused me as being “foreign”, but those families and kids around me who are rooted in the community and are breaking away from religion are really given a hard time.

If your daughter doesn’t believe in heaven and hell then why would she care?

Eleen that sounds eerily familiar, though fot me it was rather the 80ies timeframe and my parents actually are Catholic, though not practicing and of the ‘live and let live’ sort. I sometimes wonder if that’s why I was spared worse things than the ‘oh ye poor lass we need ta save ye from hell’ antics and the occasional bullying because I hadn’t the faintest idea what to do in that church I was dragged into. And of course with a Canadian da you do get the ‘odd forgeigner’ bonus.
Still, moving to Canada was an eye opening experience. Now, Quebec qualifies as hardcore Catholic by Canuck standards. Yet I realized pretty fast where papa’s easy ‘you got to figure out your own beliefs, love’ philosophy has come from. And not being the ‘odd one out’ any more is a relief for any teen I suppose.

So aye, if I had children and decided to return home I’d look for a school that practices separation of church and state. Spiritual beliefs are a personal matter. I won’t push mine on anyone and appreciate the same courtesy from others. That includes school.

Don’t be so narrow minded. Why do stick thin girls with eating disorders believe people who call them fat? Or good looking people worry when they’re called ugly? Or somebody who has an amazing talent, doubt it from one persons negativity!??? What a silly comment to make. If you hear something enough times it starts to take over, even more so in a child. I hope you have that answer for one of your children when they come so you saying they’re being bullied for something they do or don’t believe in.

Alan, if that was all there’s to it, a self- assured child or teen might shrug it off (though honestly how many confident ‘aw shucks ye joker’ teens do you know?)
The point is the much discussed bullying that goes along with it. You’re odd. You’re different. Singled out. Made a target. You’re going to hell and the righteous feel entitled to show you exactly what’s awaiting you while still on earth. That’s level one. Level two is blaming your parents for not teaching you how to get into heaven and oh, btw, they’re going to hell, too. Bad parents. Evil!
You show me a child who shrugs that off, I’ve a bridge up there in the Gatineau I’d like to sell.

Why wouldn’t they teach that? It’s in the bible, it’s one of the control mechanisms designed to scare you into belief.. Taught while young enough it’s rather effective. Remember – only those who have given their lives over to Jesus are “saved”, and if you haven’t found Jesus it’s their job to try and “show you the error of your ways”.. Ie – use these pathetic scare tactics to try and force belief on others (although only the highly impressionable fall for such adversarial proselytisation).

And agreed with Eleen etc – I went to a catholic school and we had a Protestant and a Muslim girl there for almost a year – they left due to the level of bigotry from the nuns, the fact that they couldn’t be excused from mass etc..

And as for teaching religious intolerance, dunno what the school is called but it’s on St Mobhis road in Dublin, their students recoil in horror and start blessing themselves when they see Muslim women board the bus at DCU.. Where did they get that from?

To all those saying they went to Catholic schools or send kids to Catholic schools and haven’t experienced it I would have to say I did.

Was brought up in a secular family, went to an officially non-denominational school (had been a Catholic school was effectively run as a Catholic school, regular school masses, Catholic Chaplain who taught religion class, Catholic temperance group etc.)

And I remember distinctly for the first few years getting getting Hell related questions, did I worship the devil etc. not always in a nasty way mind, just out of ignorance. And mainly in religion class. Have to say though my religion teacher didn’t reinforce that dogma.

This was in the early to mid-00′s, so I was given the option to sit out all the religious stuff – I went along to the masses out of curiosity, were pretty useless though.

On kids in catholic schools being taught that other kids are going to hell – it really depends on the school/church they went to – even though the Church has been engaged in a PR campaign around this issue – there are still a lot of hard-line traditionalist in the education system who are relatively unaccountable for what they teach the children in there charge.

ohhh yeah, people asked me if I worshiped the devil all the time too. Also, they kept asking me how come I was such a nice person, because for them not having a religion meant not having morals.

In a homily that he gave on 25 March 2007, Pope Benedict XVI stated: “Jesus came to tell us that he wants us all in heaven and that hell, of which so little is said in our time, exists and is eternal for those who close their hearts to his love.”
Vatican website has a lot to say about hell: http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P2O.HTM
My point is that there are many similar tenets of the Catholic Church that I would not want my children exposed to and just because they are not talked about much does not mean that they are not part of the package.

Serious question – If hell is an imaginary place then what does it matter?
It would be akin to telling someone who does not believe in Santa that Santa won’t bring them any presents because they’ve been naughty!

They wouldn’t give a flying hoot! In fact it would be a bit of a laugh.

Er, Leigh, in case it had escaped your attention we are talking about young kids here..
Us adults know it’s a load of tosh and that it’s just a tactic designed to scare you into compliance, but small kids hearing it at school are going to believe it. Same way they believe in Santa, the Tooth Fairy, the Easter Bunny, monsters under the bed etc..

And the Irish language is still being forced on us, it boggles the mind in this day and age!!!

If not only parents, where do you draw the line? A referendum? Personally I’ve no problem with parents being asked as they are the major stake holders in this. Prospective parents can have their say when they become equal stakeholders.

Is that a trick question?

But Adrian – once they have become parents then it is highly unlikely that the state will have organised a) to collect the views of these new wave of parents as they are doing now b) if the views have changed then start implementing these changes in the schools c) giving time for schools to settle into this new culture – by this stage it is likely that most of these parents will have kids who are now almost finishing school!

You have to start somewhere CABK, like it or not current parents are the major stakeholders. If prospective parents either now, or in the future, have an issue, let then get organised and voice their opinions.

Agreed! Schools are a workplace for teachers and other staff. Surely they have a say in the type of environment they spend their working life in? I choose to work in a particular denomination of school because I see the benefits and enhancements the ethos offers the students and staff. I would hate to teach in a non-denominational school and I wouldn’t send my children to one either. Everyone has to have a choice.

exactly, Susan, everyone has to have a choice. Yet where is the choice for people who want to send their kids to a non denominational school???

Susan, it would indeed be nice if everyone had a choice…. including those of no religion and religions other than catholic, which is why a non-denominational approach is necessary, Leaving everyone the choice of teaching their own religion (or lack of) in their own time, You as an educator could easily fulfill what you see as your catholic obligations as a volunteer outside of working hours, your job is to teach the curriculum as dictated by your employer, the state ( not the church), if the curriculum changes and you refuse to teach the revised form… it would be only correct that you be replaced with an educator who abides by his/her employers wishes.

@Susan – you are paid to teach our children. We are paying the piper.

If you don’t like the tune the piper is playing – you need to find another tune to dance too.

Aileen, I never suggested I would refuse to teach anything, I’m well aware of who my employer is, it’s actually the Board of Management of the school who hired me, the DES simply issues my paycheque. I never said I taught in a Catholic school, or indeed whether I am Catholic myself. Herein is the problem, always an assumption that all schools which aren’t non-denominational are Catholic.

Feel free to exchange the word catholic with your denomination of choice.You would hate to work in a non-denominational school certainly implies you would do a less than stellar job teaching a non-denominational curriculum in comparison to a denominational one…otherwise what point were you trying to make?

When you have seen one through set of bronze age, peasant , Palestinian superstitions …. you have seen through them all.

Children and young people are surely the main stakeholders – consult with them. Would they like to be educated segregated from children of different backgrounds or together? Do they want to be ‘formed’ in the faith of their parents, would they prefer to learn about and explore all spiritual and religious beliefs more as a subject, or would they rather have time spent on other subjects?

Here’s a link to one consultation with young people who have completed the Junior Cycle http://www.ncca.ie/en/Curriculum_and_Assessment/Post-Primary_Education/Junior_Cycle/Junior_cycle_developments/D%C3%A1il_na_n%C3%93g_report_.pdf- they enjoy sport, music and art most – the most useful things they feel they have learned are:
“Social skills, such as how to make friends, talk to other people and have respect for others, were considered to be the most useful thing young people at Junior Cycle have ever learned.”

“Learning how to talk, read and write were also judged to be very important skills in terms of communicating, getting a job and getting places in life.”

“Confidence was the most useful skill some young people said they have ever learned; for
example, learning how to stand up for yourself and having the ability to voice your opinion.”

“Young people felt personal development was also an essential skill for students to learn in Junior Cycle – how to be happy, be a good person and express oneself were specifically mentioned.”

“Senior Cycle students identified life skills, social skills, mental health education and coping
skills, sexual health education and alcohol and drug awareness as the essential skills and
subjects that young people need to learn at Junior Cycle level.”

I’d have no issue with Nuns teaching children..so long as they stuck to the actual educational subjects.

If a teacher moonlights as a stripper at night then they can still be a great teacher…so long as they leave the non-educational stuff outside the classroom and it doesn’t affect their ability to teach.

The Catholic Church doesn’t fund any educational institute in Ireland! The schools are funded by the government and yet most of them are under the patronage of the Catholic Church! That means, that the government finances the catholic education! We are financing this ourselves and yet the poll results are indicating, that the majority doesn’t want denominational education!

@Monika, you are right in tha the Catholic Church does not directly fund teachers or schools. But they do own many of the school buildings and the land that they are built on and it will be considerable cost to the state to aquire these.

That’s alright Niamh, the church owes the state an awful lot of money in compensation for child abuse.. Perhaps they can just transfer the deeds over to the government?

They’ve agreed to do just that… they’re just very very slow at keeping to their word!

Shanti, while you are correct in your statement of fund transfer we also need not to lose sight of who had the power to hand these children over to the institutions – the state.
Who helped cover up the abuse? – the State.

Sadly for Ireland the State had a very large part to play in facilitating and hiding these abuses.
This shows that the State cannot be trusted and therefore must be forced to be transparent in all things, how nice it would be to have the state answerable to the electorate.

The state are paying half the compensation (well, more than half) but technically that means that you and I are paying for the state AND the churches misgivings..
Quelle Suprise..

Sadly the people directly responsible would be dead and buried by now, and holding the state responsible means offering to foot the bill in real terms..

It’s time the church paid up..

And sorry – I meant to say I agree, transparency and accountability in government should be standard.. The fact it isn’t shows what a joke our so called “democracy” is..

I agree Pilib. Religion should not be something that is forced onto somebody like what used to happen. Religion should be taught in a way to teach children/adults about every religion and how they came about. In this way, it will be easier for people to follow religion and chose their own religious path.
However, it must be said also that the catholic church and other religious orders have done great things for Irish education and who knows what state the education system would be in if it were not for their contribution but the time has come to separate education and religion. Holy Communion and Confirmation should not be carried out through schools which would allow teachers to focus on other subjects. If parents want their children to receive Holy Communion it should be on their own terms and nobody should be forced to confirm their faith at such a young age. It shouldn’t happen until the person is definitely sure they want to be part of the religion and most children are probably unsure about this at 12/13 when it occurs in school.
I’t s like the teaching of the Irish language. A large proportion of Irish students who are forced to learn Irish resent it and only later in life regret not learning it.

They can pray for balanced accounts.

well said sean

A NEW POLL commissioned by the Irish Primary Principals Network has shown that three out of four parents would send their children to schools run by patrons other than Churches if they had a choice. April 2012.
http://www.thejournal.ie/poll-indicates-three-quarters-of-parents-want-change-in-primary-school-patronage-434184-Apr2012/

“It has no place beside science”

Ah … you’re on sticky ground there. How would Georges Lemaître fit into that theory?

Lemaitre himself was against mixing science and religion. He was a physicist who just happened to also be a priest. He never allowed his religious convictions affect his work in astrophysics. Were there more like him….

Or he was a priest who happened to be a scientist.

He held the two adjacent, so he had them side by side.

Lemaitre was not happy when the catholic leaders tried to justify creationism with his theory. He said that relgion & science should not be mixed.

In the dark ages, virtually all “doctors” and “scientists” were priests. That’s why it was called the dark ages.
Religion deals with the supernatural, which is to say, it deals with things that are not governed by the four forces, therefore it is not “natural”–it is “super-natural”. It is entirely disconnected from science.
For my money, it can be entirely classified as “superstition”. We shouldn’t be teaching superstition in our schools, unless we teach ALL superstitions. And that would be bad luck.

The contention wasn’t whether they should be mixed. The contention was that “It [religion] has no place beside science”, But religion can sit next to science quite happily. If Lemaître can have the two adjacent in his head why can’t the rest of us?

Im intrigued that your inside his head. I could make a counter arguement that he was probably a non believer based on the fact that he knew the origins of the universe. Religion & science dont mix but the catholic church has been clever not to completely distance itself from it. However it is not the religion of science or reason. It makes non scientific claims like resurection & virgin births & such nonsense.

Ah Damocles has fallen for NOMA.

There are very clearly conflicts between science and religion. They are conflicting ways of thinking and they you can see the overlap every time religion makes claims about the nature of reality (miracles, cosmology, the existence of the supernatural in general) overlap.

The claim that there is no overlap is something you will hear repeated by scientists in Ireland of course… competing for tax payer funded grants predominantly paid for and awarded by people who believe in a magical man in the sky.

What about Isaac Newton?
Matthew Fontaine Maury?
Robert Boyle?
etc.
etc.

“he was probably a non believer based on the fact that he knew the origins of the universe”

While being a Catholic Priest?

“There are very clearly conflicts between science and religion”

Are you an empiricist in the style of Dawkins?

Why are people naming religious people who are scientists as if it means anything? Obviously people are able to hold and reconcile conflicting views through rationalisation and compartmentalisation. That doesnt make the fields themselves compatible. Appeal to authority fallacy!

“That doesnt make the fields themselves compatible”

The issue was adjacency.

Well I agree that it’s idiotic to claim that a person can’t be both religious and a scientists. 40% of scientists in general and 10% of members of the royal society and national academy of science believe in at least one god.

But the fields are not compatible. The field of cosmology is working on the problem of the origin of the universe. How can you work on that problem objectively if you beLIEve you already have the answer? Religious scientsts are not practicing science when they talk or think about their religion.

Um, no, it’s just that at secondary level at least you should have a choice!

Aisling, Does a “proper education” need to be a religiously patronized one? Does a child need religious indoctrination to be happy? Would our society be a fairer one if all religions and none were treated equally?

It seems to be that you are over complicating things.. why do you think that if religion is gone from schools then the children will no longer be happy or well educated – that without prayers primary school won’t be a happy place for children to learn? Its not an actual trade off. That time in religion class and on prayers in the mornings would be better spent on languages and maths and things that will benefit the children in the long run.

When in primary school I often wondered why we were not taught subjects like Science and foreign languages. We were told that the school didn’t have the time in the schedule to offer either. Mind you we had plenty of time for morning prayer (10 minutes outside whether it was scorching or freezing) and for religion every day.

My education wasn’t severely hurt by having religion but it certainly wasn’t advanced by it either.

“i see no harm at all in my children being taught a few prayers etc in school”

I assume you are referring to Christian prayers, or more specifically, Catholic, yes?

I was taught in a Catholic Primary and Secondary and finally admitted I was an Atheist when I was 30. My “Catholic” school refused to allow us to particiate in the Comic Relief campaigns because a tiny fraction of the money would fund abortions. We were also subjected to that charming piece of propaganda called The Silent Scream. Not to mention the times we would have Mass and also Confession.

State funded relgious indoctrination is not suitable is schools and should be removed ASAP.

The evidence would suggest there is harm given the lack of teaching time given to science and the amount of time given to teaching religion.

coincéar, that’s called Stockholm syndrome.

Um, it is not a few minutes a week! It pervades the entire curriculum from Junior Infants – sinister don’t you think?!
http://www.education.ie/en/Press-Events/Conferences/Patronage-and-Pluralism-in-the-Primary-Sector/Patronage-Forum-Submissions-November-2011-/Organisations-November-2011/Department-of-Religious-Studies-and-Religious-Education-St-Patrick%E2%80%99s-College-Drumcondra-.pdf

Yes Sean but the publicly-funded schools should not be teaching non-educational subjects.

I may think that fire-breathing is a great skill and vital but I would not expect the school (that your tax money funds) to teach my child that – I would have to teach the child that myself.

Trying to define what is educational & what isn’t is not easy.

Not at all Justin. In fact it’s really easy.

If it’s true/real it’s educational (science, history, geography,language, etc.)
If it’s superstition/distorted reality – it’s religion.

If I believe that a giant all-knowing invisible rabbit can answer my prayers, I am considered to be a loon. If I believe that an all-knowing, invisible man with a white beard can answer my prayers then I am considered holy.

Both are a result of psychotic delusion

Paul, by your measure we would be unable to teach any “science” which has a presupposition of millions of years or evolution of humans from soup via lower level primates since these are unprovable and, therefore, must be believed by faith.

Spirituality???? What sort of spirituality ???? What IS spirituality??? Please, unless you can define it as something that could actually be taught it has no use in this discussion, Religion at least can be defined, Spirituality is a nothing word.

Hmmm? Can’t help wondering why you’re so angry Aileen.

Definition Aileen. Religion is what you learn. spirituality is part of who you are!

But that means nothing…. (its part of who you are) My liver is part of me and can be taught about as part of a lesson dealing with anatomy , but spirituality ??? No, I’m no clearer on what you mean by you simply repeating your previous statement. . I’m frustrated rather than angry by the way… And I’ve always found myself frustrated when people throw words like spirituality around and cannot even begin to explain what they mean.

Not throwing anything around Aileen, just my personal view. Isn’t that what this column is about? By the way Spirituality is an experience rather than something physical, can’t be explained, just experienced. Hear your frustration though:)

No thanks Celia. I’d be happier to keep the woo woo out of schools and teach critical thinking instead. That way we’ll have fewer gullible people handing over money to gurus, psychics and other charlatains.

What about those with NO faith?

Religious indoctrination has no place in schools. If you wish your child to learn your faith teach them AT HOME.

Catholic “culture” has a lot to answer for here.

The guy who wants denominational schools is the same guy who blames the brown people. That tell you a lot about the ignorance modern Ireland to deal with.

A culture built up by an censor like De Valera and an oppressive force such as the catholic church? Get a grip man!

Ur statement may hav been credible had u not referred to coloured people as brown!! Tut tut!

Sharon – I don’t think “coloured people” is quite the right way to refer to minorities either. I think you’ll find we’re all “coloured”.

The only constant in life is change. Live with it and adapt or become extinct.

Sorry but I’m Irish was born here and all my family the same, why should my kids have to fit in with the catholic bullshit they teach in schools? Holy communion what a load of bollox, and then confirmation complete waste of time

I don’t want catholic schools. Or Muslim, or any other superstitious nonsense! I sense that we’re moving away from religion and I’m very optimistic. The fact that people are discussing things like this and abortion is a good sign.

But thats the way it has always been. Why should it b changed. To some people communion nd confo r very important. Build more schools so parents hav a choice

@Sharon, you quote of “But that’s the way it has always been. Why should it b changed” is scary…by that argument should we still throw single ‘odd’ women who live on the outskirts of town into the river to see if they float?
Sure didn’t we always do that?!

Terrible argument.

Sharon, things change, if communion and confirmation are important then people can teach their kids about it in their own time. That will allow more time for grammar and spelling.

Daithi, who are the ‘them’ you refer to? I was born and raised in Ireland and ‘educated’ in catholic schools. I now teach in a catholic school and am forced to send my daughter to a catholic school. I must not only work under a dogma that is irrelevant to my existence but have to endure the ridiculousness of differentiating to my child what we believe and what she’s told in school. My friends are from all faiths. I respect them. I don’t feel that my beliefs or lack of same are respected equally. Ireland has changed dramatically and it is about time religious control is eliminated from our educational system. From what i see, it would strengthen Catholicism leaving those who are truly devout to carry out the sacraments in their own time. One might also see a dramatic improvement in literacy and numeracy in the sacrament classes.

I too am Irish, and personally I resent the hold a religion has on our culture.
I have no problem with people believing what they want, but they need to realise that their beliefs are theirs. They can keep them, that’s fine, but when they want to mix religion with the running of the country or children’s basic education then that is wrong.

Not everyone is catholic, THAT’S the way it’s always been. But there are some within various religions who don’t seem to appreciate that not everyone has to believe as they do, look at how they react when another point of view or way of doing things is suggested, if their religion was so great it may have taught empathy – maybe then they would see how utterly selfish and petty their desire to control everyone and everything is..

Completely agree I was brought up catholic when I’m asked what religion I say none because I don’t go to mass or read or pray in my day to day life so i don’t practice a religion. Many of the people you see in the church’s at communion and confirmation are they really religious doubt it they more than likely like myself just went to mass for the occasion and wouldn’t don the doors again for years. Therefore my newborn will have no religion because why would I cod myself say I’m catholic when I don’t practice faith like many people and just turn up for the usual christening, communion, confirmation, weddings and funerals.

I’m sorry but isn’t it up to a parent to teach their children right from wrong? Why would you rely on a religion to do that?

Of course its up to parents to teach right from wrong, I was mearly pointing out that the catholic religion has some merits in that there is a moral to every story, “right from wrong”, no harm in kids learning that at school -as well as at home. No need to go taking the comment out of context.

Why presume that religion teaches morality ? From what I see those who claim to be christian are much MORE morally advanced than the book they claim to follow. And many catholics ignore the popes moral teachings on contraception, homosexuality and church attendance altogether. Our county is arguably a better place to live since catholics and other christians started to form their morality from compassion and common sense rather than the dictates of a sinister old virgin and a moldy old book.

That’s what religion is. Knowing right from wrong

Are we?

The country may have a catholic majority but what is the demographical breakdown of that majority? Either way how does it follow that the government should fund catholic religious education in schools and discriminate against those of other religions and none? The solution is to teach no religion in school. You are free to raise your kids how you see fit but their religious education should be outside of school and not funded by taxpayers

While the majority of people may tick the box that they are catholic, the state should have no hand, act or part in promoting one religion over another, especially when it comes to education.

I think if schools offered as many languages as possible that would be amazing. That’s because learning a language or multiple languages is an actual life skill that is useful to society! Learning about religion alongside subjects like science, history and geography is completely unjustifiable because there is not one shred of credible evidence that any deity exists. Why teach our kids facts alongside fictions when it will only lead to confusion about the credibility of their education, and in the end will not improve their success as adults in the working world?

And I suppose you’d be against teaching evolution as well Dave because we’re such a “catholic country”?

I didn’t realise a nation could have a religious persuasion.

I’m officially a Jedi, according to my census form. Will the state fund my studies in the ways of the force?

96% of schools are run by the church
92 % of the population is catholic (2011)
So when 8% of schools are not run by the church ye will have nothing to shout about?
Seems fair that catholic taxpayers get what they are pay for.

Dave are you advocating discriminating against minorities? Is that what your catholic education teaches?

Dave, 92% may have been baptised into that catholic church and consider themselves (culturally catholic). It does not mean they believe in God, go to mass or participate in religion in any other way. That tick on the census form is pretty meaningless really and doesn’t reflect the nature of peoples beliefs in Ireland today.

Well Reg there are other boxes to tick if your not catholic, pretty simple. fact is only 8% ticked other boxes.

Alan, not suggesting discrimination at all… 8% of non catholic schools for 8% non catholic population.
Nothing wrong with that or do you expect catholics to subsidise your preferences for education just so you don’t have to travel too far to find one from the 8% of schools…..

Dave, what about many of the 92% category that would like a change. Where was that tick box on the census form?

We will continue to be when people have to baptise their children to ensure a place at a local school! That’s why they are keeping their iron grip on the national schools.

@dave – then 92% are deluded, primitive sheep.

…but I don’t think the figure is that high. I think if people had to pay for membership of the church, you’d see a dramatically different result

This isnt the case in a lot of places. My daughter wasnt baptised starting school. The only thing that was ever said to me was id need a baptismal cert for her to make her communion. She was baptised at age 5!

Reg, it was a census, a record of the population at a point in time!
If you want policy “change” you need to tick a box in an election
(noted: an election can only bring change if there is an alternative to the existing!)

I dont care if the 92% is wrong… even if it is only 42% and 42% are catholic taxpayers then 42% of the schools should be catholic. PRO RATA. If not asking special treatment just catholic schools to teach catholic views. if that means i’d have to bring my kids further to get to the nearest catholic school – I still would bring them. I f you want a jedi school of learning go find one, and when Jedi is >50% of the population id imagine it will be a lot easier to find.

Have a look at the stats Dave, we are not “a mainly catholic country” any more, thankfully.

@Celia one of us is definitely looking at the wrong stats! What are we then if not a mainly catholic society?

Strange, when I look at those statistics they say only 84.2% of the population were catholic in 2011.

@paul I dont think there is anything to be gained from trying to insult people millions of people by describing them as “primitive sheep”…. after all EVERY faith or religion needs sheep – not enough room at the top for everyone to be shepherds!

I thought it was 84%?? And I know many people who ticked catholic purely because they didn’t know what else to tick.. They figured catholic was the only formal religion they’d ever encountered and so ticked it.. Doesn’t make them catholic does it?

@Ruth grand, 16% non catholic schools- above points still stand :p
I see where your getting the 84% and earlier today I found a different website that said 92% am not arguing about the percentages. I’m saying why should 84% of people describing themselves as catholic and paying 84% of tax in the country not have catholic schools equalling 84% of the total number of schools?

Well which is the cart and which is the horse? The fact that we are mostly baptised Catholic must have something to do with the fact that the Catholic Church has a stranglehold over the Primary Education System.

Why are the churches so empty if there’s not a wedding or a funeral then?

I was baptised when I was barely 1 month old.
I was not consulted. In fact I’m pretty sure I couldn’t have given my consent for anything else until I was at least 16..
Perhaps that’s why we have so many who identify as catholic eh?

Dave, many reputable polls have shown that 3 out of 4 parents want a multi-denominational or non-denominational education for their children – for example: http://www.thejournal.ie/poll-indicates-three-quarters-of-parents-want-change-in-primary-school-patronage-434184-Apr2012/.

And why do you assume people who want children to be educated together are Atheists? Being Catholic or Protestant or Muslim does not mean that you want your children to be segregated in education. We do not have segregated work places. Nor do I believe for a minute that we have a majority of practising Catholics in this country.

Finally, if you have a small town with children from a range of backgrounds (and statistically three out of four parents living there who favour educating our children together rather than in segregation), then surely the only way to cater for all is to provide education that takes personal religious belief out of the system, and instead actively celebrates the belief systems of all the children in the school???

Imagine a public service, say the HSE, that said: well, we cannot have a separate health centre for each different belief system, don’t be silly, so we are going to have a Catholic one, because we think Catholics are a majority – sorry but that is the ethos that will inform the health centre. Would that not be crazy? What about segregating all third level and university education too???

@¥Dave, you don’t come across as very Christian……..

if they really cannot teach nursery rhymes and call a blackboard a blackboard then that’s just ridiculous.

Plenty of Irish people of no religion is why, Our education should be not indoctrination to one religion, pretty ignorant statement

Why do people see this as a ‘us versus the foreigners’ question. I don’t understand that.

This is about whether the catholic church should run and own the majority of primary schools. I said non denominational as I think that there’s plenty of scope to be involved in your religion and church outside of school and this move would mean that parents and children who are religious would have to take a more active role in their religion and church community – which surely is only a good thing. School is a place for children to be educated in science, maths and languages and a place where the religion or lack of religion a person has has no influence on their schooling.

The example you should probably be quoting (and I apologize if this sounds mean but its true) is that your grammar and spelling in the above comment is appalling. The focus should be on educating our children to a high standard. There is plenty of time for religion outside of school hours.

Oh shut up Sharon, that is a pure lie. 1. Baa baa black sheep is for an infant and wouldn’t be taught in schools. 2. If your child really is in a mixed school it would be a fairly new school and would not have blackboards, its all white boards and interactive boards these days. Stop spreading BS

Mixed as in all different races/religons! But its a catholic school! And go to a primary school in d back arse of nowhere nd tell me there all using whiteboards and projectors!

Get a grip people! Get a grip!

We’re not talking about the arse end of nowhere, we’re talking about the school your child goes to and I can guarantee your little story about not being able to say blackboard is pure crap. So either you made it up yourself or you are stupid enough to believe it from someone else, which is it?

Im talkin about back arse of nowhere, cause thats where i was thought! No u cant say black board. Go into a shop and ask for black bags??? They dont sell them anymore. There refuse sacks!

ffs Sharon stop. I have 3 children going to a catholic school & they have blackboards & they call them that & there is children of different ethnic backrounds going to the school. A Nigerian family run a shop near me & they have black/refuse bags. I am a white straight male with 4 children (all catholics like their mother) & Im an atheist. I dont want catholic run schools in Ireland unless they are private. We should have non religious schools being supported by the state & if you want your children taught religion do it at home or on your own time. My kids can come to that arrangement why cant the rest of them. I want children to be educated in school about communication, language,maths, science,history,geography. Religious teachings will only impair them in learning these subjects in school.Im not stopping your children or mine being taught religion Im just trying to seperate it from education.

Oh my God! They’re all WHITE boards these days? I thought we were supposed to be all mulitcultural and shit.

Irish born and bred, not religious as I believe majority of Irish people are not really religious – why should I not have an education for my child? With so many non-religious Irish people, or Irish people with different beliefs, or even Irish Catholics who want their kids to mix with children from different religions and backgrounds, we need schools that cater for all. IRISH parent have said in polls that they want non-denominational or multi-denominational schools. You wouldn’t expect to have universities and colleges segregated by religion, would you? So why schools?

Wel said anthony

An atheist school would be as bad as a religious one, non-denominational is best. All religions and none learning together would promote tolerance and questioning on all sides, facilitating children making informed decisions, segregation would only prove divisive, surely Anthony , you are not afraid for your children to be exposed to an alternative world view? As for atheists and knowledge…. it is accepted that the vast majority of contemporary thinkers are atheist….. in labs and universities all over the world and contribute hugely to the sum of human knowledge ( which our educators then inform our children of) . That great thinkers of the past were religious is no indicator that those people , if alive now would be religious. We should stop harping on about the past and face the future based on whats happening now, and that means responding to the needs of a multi-denominational population in the fairest way possible.

The thing you are missing Anthony is that there are many belief systems other than religious and atheist! I am not an active believer in gods or any kind of afterlife, preferring to have the good grace and modesty to say I simply do not know, but nor would I care to label myself – I will leave that up to others.

One of the hallmarks of most people I know who profess either atheism or humanism, or those who just do not subscribe to a particular off-the-peg belief system, is that they usually do not want to indoctrinate their children into their own views, no matter how strongly held these may be.

My son went to a multi-denominational primary school and we never pressured him to have any kind of belief system, being delighted that he chose more to live in and enjoy the present moment and think about things for himself. His own personal views and beliefs continue to grow and develop and we continue fully to support him in this, even when they are in conflict with our own belief systems (eg we are vegetarian and he eats meat). He is a fine compassionate and thoughtful young man with a strong moral compass and we are so proud of him.

In terms of ‘atheist parents’ not getting off their arses, as opposed to parents who just enrol their children in existing religious schools, you would not believe the amount of years of hard work and fundraising by parents that is involved in setting up a new Educate Together school – the kind of school that seeks not to push any one view on children, but celebrates all the different backgrounds, beliefs, and lack of belief of the children and families who are part of the school community. As a person who does not believe in gods, I have taken part in celebrating many religious ceremonies in the school with children and parents of a range of different beliefs and none. If my child were in a religious school I do not think the same respect would be afforded to me and many parents.

As for atheists doing something positive, it seems to me that there is a group that have done a lot of constructive work with the Department of Education and the Government to try to secure their right as parents to an education for their children that respects their own background and beliefs.

I’m all for non-denominational schools but your comment is nonsensical.

Correlation does not equal causation.

just as a matter Are you a church going practicing catholic, or just an Al La Cart just for the fancy days out?

Nope, a la carte all d way. But i no what i believe! I dont need to go to a church to be catholic, just like i dont feel d need to stand at a grave side to feel close to someone!

So you don’t need to go to church to be a catholic…but you do need to send your children to a catholic school to be a catholic. Is this purely because you wouldn’t bother teaching your kids about religion yourself? you just expect the school to do your job for you?

Sharon, If you don’t feel the need to go to church to be a Catholic and do not observe a weekly Eucharist then to all intents and purposes you are at best a lapsed Catholic.

Exactly…

So its the Fancy days out then !

Oh yes! Luv a gud knee’s up me!

If you are a lapsed Catholic, observing what we’ll loosely call “your faith” to the degree expected of an Anglo-Catholic in the UK, why do you feel the need to instill in your children a religion that requires a level of belief for normal observance which far exceeds your own?

Of course we are all entitled to our opinions, we are not entitled to insist those opinions be foisted on everyone else, this is why we need change, and a non-denominational approach is the fairest solution to the changing needs of students and parents. I’m Irish…and atheist, why should I get my jacket?

Ah ye wont need it ur going to hell!!!! I joke i joke!

Hmmm yes… hilarious.

Despite all the red buttons you’re batting well Sharon…….. my lol for today!

Despite all the red buttons you’re hurling like a divil Sharon…………. my lol for today

Sure ye have to get a kick out of somewhere on a monday morning!

Sharon you look like a lovely young woman and your gorgeous baby and I wish you well. I suppose it’s just that there are so many more non-religious people these days that it is unfair when you cannot find a school that suits you and you have no choice but to send your child to a school teaching stuff you really don’t believe in – hope you can see that point? I feel that schools should cater to all Irish people (like me!) and the only way to do that is if they are not religious. You can still bring your child into your religious community outside of school.

Thank you, my point is i dont think it should b takin out of the schools completely. In primary school it should be the parents choice, secondary school let the kids choose. But have something in place for those who are not going to b participating in religon.

Ireland is not a catholic nation

This is not ‘outsiders’ looking for change, its Irish people who no longer want catholic theology being taught de facto to their kids in primary school. Theres no xenophobia here.

Well said!

The state should have no hand, act or part in promoting one religion over another. I think you’ll find that most of the people looking for change are Irish people. This has nothing to do with immigrants looking to change our culture.

Recent census will beg to differ!

Al La Cart Catholics are a major contributor to the recent census, how many follow the rules of the catholic church? very little in reality